Announcing Shader Model 6.10 Preview, Including Batched Asynchronous Command List APIs
Posted by RTcore@reddit | hardware | View on Reddit | 122 comments
capybooya@reddit
At which point do we get another DX version or did that become meaningless after DX12?
MrMPFR@reddit
Yeah and jury still out on what MS implied by DX Next on the Helix slide. Hopefully SM7 and not SM6.1x in perpetuity.
thegreatbeanz@reddit
I got some good news and some bad news for you.
Good news: SM 6.1x won't be perpetual. We actually can only go to 6.14 before we run out of bits in our binary file format (we reserved 15), so it will be _real_ painful if we don't get SM 7 out before then.
Bad news: SM 7 will not be part of the DX Next work. We are working on it, but it's a bit too far out to land in that timeframe.
MrMPFR@reddit
Lol
Historically doesn’t new DirectX mean new SM?
So it’s not coming till 2028+?
thegreatbeanz@reddit
Not necessarily a major version. DX 11 shipped with SM 5.0, DX 12 was SM 5.1.
SM 7 is dependent on the HLSL implementation in Clang (we need the LLVM-based SPIRV code generator). We're aiming to have an experimental release of that functionality before the end of this year, and to begin working with developers to integrate it into production uses next year. Schedules are still a bit fuzzy because there's still a lot of work to do.
After the Clang roll out, we'll shift focus to finalizing the SPIRV representations for DirectX (we've started some preliminary work on this already), which will be the main backbone of SM 7.
OwlProper1145@reddit
In many ways you could consider DirectX 12 Ultimate to be DirectX 13.
MrMPFR@reddit
It's not really a rewrite though like DX12, but then again not all DX releases used to be that back in the day.
Perhaps MS will do complete clean slate ala No Graphics API. Otherwise it seems hard to justify DX13 when they've been doing DX12 for over a decade.
Die4Ever@reddit
RTX 2000 series was insanely forward-looking
Dreamerlax@reddit
Ripped apart for being a bad value yet outlives the RDNA1 which was positioned as the better buy.
Seanspeed@reddit
How GPU's fare eight years later usually isn't considered a relevant way to judge them. lol
ClerkProfessional803@reddit
That's the craziest thing I've heard on this sub yet, considering you can still use that generation.
Seanspeed@reddit
I'm still using a GTX1070. Doesn't mean it's a great experience.
But no, this is never how GPU's should be judged. There's nothing 'super crazy' about that. GPU's should be judged in their most relevant lifecycles.
ClerkProfessional803@reddit
That's the craziest thing I've heard yet on this sub. You obviously didn't care for Turing's innovation at release.
Dreamerlax@reddit
Yeah but Turing can do RT and run DLSS. Meanwhile certain newer titles don’t even run on RDNA1 anymore.
dc492@reddit
As if we're going to see this version in existing games ? By the time games will release with this, the people who would want to play those games will have upgraded already from Turing/RDNA1, maybe those games won't even have decent fps on those cards to begin with.
dampflokfreund@reddit
It was, indeed. Still great cards today! And nearly every feature is supported on them, except for ReBar and Frame Generation. Something like a 2070S will still do fine until cross gen for the next generation ends thanks to the full support of hardware Raytracing, ML upscalers, DX12 Ultimate and more, which is an insane lifespan for a GPU.
Seanspeed@reddit
A 2070S is already a lackluster GPU by today's standards with its 8GB of VRAM and lower end level of raw horsepower.
Plank_With_A_Nail_In@reddit
Oh no you are one of those "If its not the best its trash" people. Most PC gamers are on laptops using iGPU's the 2070S is fucking amazing in comparison.
Seanspeed@reddit
I am no such thing. This is a completely bullshit strawman.
I'm a longtime 'midrange' user and have always felt that is where the best value is at. My new PC I'm building has a 9600X and a 5060Ti 16GB.
Y'all are just gonna say ANYTHING to defend Nvidia at this point, it's insane.
dampflokfreund@reddit
It's still around PS5 level performance, which means it can run all of today's games at good performance and quality, with some drawbacks here and there due to 8 GB VRAM but also some positives like better image quality thanks to DLSS. I think thats pretty good for a card that released before the current console generation.
Seanspeed@reddit
A Radeon 7850 could also get you PS4-like performance in a general sense - a GPU that released before PS4 did.
But it still aged poorly due to VRAM limitations in comparison.
In what world are y'all seriously pretending that 8GB is 'fine' nowadays? Christ.
Plank_With_A_Nail_In@reddit
Most people are still on 1080p, yes 8Gb is just fine lol. You need to come down from your ivory tower and look at what most people actual game on.
Seanspeed@reddit
It's absolutely unbelievable that it's now UNPOPULAR here to say 8GB is a problem in 2026. All because people will say anything to defend Nvidia.
klopklop25@reddit
Almost people game on phones. But outside that on pcs, according to the steam hardware survey most gamers indeed use a 1080 screen as primary monitor. However only 10% uses 8gb or less ram. 40% uses 16gb and 36% uses 32gb
dampflokfreund@reddit
I still play the latest games with just 6 GB and I can assure you, 8 GB is fine. If you use intelligent settings, you can get surprisingly good performance and quality. However, that is not to say 8 GB in current GPUs are acceptable, it is definately not. 12 GB should be the very minimum for a new release.
Gloomy_Necesary@reddit
Can we move on with the vram talk already? Giving a 2070 super more vram wouldnt do anything for the card, how is that even relevant. You guys just parrot everything you hear its wild
OwlProper1145@reddit
2070 Super/2080 gets you a similar expirence to a PS5 experience in many games.
randomkidlol@reddit
its either bots, or people going through insane levels of mental gymnastics of post purchase justification. nvidia cards have gotten 2-3x more expensive in the past 10 years for the same tier, and they gotta make up reasons why spending $1000+ on a GPU is normal.
ThatRandomGamerYT@reddit
Benefit of ripping off the bandaid and stocking the series with future ready stuff right from the start, unlike AMD who kept acting like all is good and didn't actually commit until RDNA4, so now old Nvidia users still have good stuff while old RDNA users are left behind.
bestanonever@reddit
AMD was probably caught with their pants down regarding raytracing. Either they didn't think it was the right time for it or didn't have the budget yet. I think the budget was a big issue.
In 2018 the whole company was just starting to turn the ship around with Ryzen, which wasn't as beloved or a high seller as it is now yet (Zen+ or Ryzen 2000 were their fastest CPUs yet). So, their Radeon guys probably had a shoestring budget for a while.
Not making excuses for them, but it does make sense why they took 2 years to release a basic first-gen solution for RT, and then take like 4 more years for a true powerful solution for it. Hell, if all rumors are true, it won't be until UDNA/RDNA5 for a fully fledged RT/Pathtracing solution from AMD.
Vb_33@reddit
They weren't caught with their pants down MS had communicated to both AMD and Nvidia that they were adding RT to direct X in 2015, by 2016 MS had set in stone the specs of the Xbox Series consoles including that they would have Ray tracing.
AMD just does the AMD thing which is invest heavily in CPUs and do the bare minimum for Radeon. If Radeon was owned by a different company things would have been very different.
doneandtired2014@reddit
>AMD was probably caught with their pants down regarding raytracing.
Oh, I'm sure they were loosely aware of what NVIDIA was doing but their neutered R&D budget and the squabbling between engineering teams about what the path forward should be (Iterating further on GCN vs RDNA) tied their hands until it was too late.
Deeppurp@reddit
AMD was clawing the entire company back from irrelevance with the successive Zen releases, propelling them to success the datacenter as a serious option to consider vs intel, and 30% in the desktop space.
Their GPU's need its Zen moment now to bring them up the market share list vs Nvidia. Its all going to take Time.
I'd Settle with 20%/20%/60% AMD/Intel/Nvidia respectively if they all had competitive products. 30/70 in desktop for AMD/Intel is incredible, but theres more to gain - intel still holds a lot of mind share. It was only Zen 3 that got close to the single core performance intel offered, even if they held multi core for the last 2 generations before. It was Zen 4 where single core was tied or beat intel. 1 generation ago.
AssCrackBanditHunter@reddit
People forget that AMDs stock was trading at less than a dollar and people were seriously discussing what was gonna happen to x86_64 when Intel had a monopoly on it.
doneandtired2014@reddit
Perhaps, but that doesn't change the fact that the infighting and internal power struggles at RTG has probably done more long term damage than the shoe string budget has.
I can't name NVIDIA's key hardware architects off my head. I can name a few of AMD's specifically because of how and why they left.
No one hear should really know that RDNA1's development resulted in key personnel pulling an Eric Cartman (i.e. "screw you guys, I'm going home") and making a beeline directly for a competitor because they kept trying to beat GCN into something it could never be for most markets.
Seanspeed@reddit
Given that consoles in 2020 had ray tracing acceleration, they weren't caught completely unaware. This support would have been on the architectural drawing board years before.
But they certainly didn't commit much to it.
chapstickbomber@reddit
AMD couldn't afford to blow a ton a resources implementing hardware and software for a new technology standard when NV was obviously going to win with whatever incompatible proprietary implementation they were cooking simply because of mindshare. We'd have raytracing on RDNA1 and you could use it in like 6 games. That's what would have happened
ptd163@reddit
There's been caught with their pants down. Then there's burying your head in the sand for several years.
MrMPFR@reddit
Well they did tout path tracing and nextgen neural rendering (MLP not sloptracing) in the October Project Amethyst presentation with Cerny and Huynh.
Pretty likely they take it seriously nextgen.
chapstickbomber@reddit
Whatever acceleration AMD would have committed to, Nvidia would have changed their implementation to make sure it was dead weight. Any time Radeon becomes good at something, it becomes too priority at Geforce to make up some proprietary fomotech that Radeon isn't allowed to do.
LAwLzaWU1A@reddit
Got any examples of Nvidia changing their implementation of something so that the work AMD did became dead weight?
My interpretation of the last 15 or so years of hardware is that Nvidia has been at the forefront of innovation and as a result they are the ones pushing the industry forward. AMD is almost always playing catch-up so by the time they implement whatever Nvidia pushed a few years earlier, Nvidia has moved on to the next thing.
I feel like you are trying to describe Nvidia pushing for new things (that later become standard) as something negative or malicious, which I don't get.
dudemanguy301@reddit
Nvidia has been leading hard ever since Turing but even GCN had things Pascal and Maxwell didn’t, like actually benefiting from / supporting Asynchronous Compute, and while Primitive shaders are an incremental rather than radical change to the geometry pipeline they were still a compelling improvement as the PS5 proves.
MrMPFR@reddit
It's a bit crazy how long it took NVIDIA to get proper support for async compute and pivot more towards compute with Turing, but then again the timing seemed right in hindsight.
Can you please explain the differences between primitive shaders and mesh shaders? Didn't David Wang claim RDNA 2's mesh shader implementation is essentially just a driver side-workaround that uses the underlying primitive shaders HW.
I read RDNA 3 had a few changes compared to RDNA 2 in regards to mesh shaders, but does it have full native mesh shader support like Turing?
Assume it's way closer because otherwise they couldn't do all the crackpot stuff that mesh nodes enables.
dudemanguy301@reddit
the best breakdown I have found is here: https://gpuopen.com/learn/mesh_shaders/mesh_shaders-from_vertex_shader_to_mesh_shader/
It’s not exhaustive and it’s also 2024 vintage so it merely hints at the potential of GPU driven rendering rather than more recent demonstrations, but it is a stepwise exploration from an AMD perspective of the motivations and take aways from vertex shader -> primitive shader -> mesh shader.
Some technicalities are dropped which I was trying to locate but this is a good start, I’ll probably dig around later today or tomorrow.
MrMPFR@reddit
This is great info.
They didn't talk about mesh nodes till GDC 2024. Most recent paper the one from last year with PCG trees.
Thanks.
Seanspeed@reddit
For a good while in the 2010's, AMD actually was doing a fair bit to be more forward thinking than Nvidia was, but because a lot of the tech wasn't getting utilized in many games at the time of these GPU's releasing, it could feel a bit of a waste.
Which really wasn't too different to how people felt about Nvidia 20 series at the time, and were entirely valid feelings.
LAwLzaWU1A@reddit
Got any examples?
AMD were early with tessellation but it took Nvidia one generation to catch up and then get ahead of AMD. AMD were also early and had better support for asynchronous compute, and their work on Mantle was a really big step forward. But those are basically the only three things I can think of. Meanwhile, I can think of a lot of things Nvidia were early with or pushed.
But I feel like there are two separate arguments here. The thing that caused me to reply to begin with was the part where chapstickbomber said that as soon as AMD does something good, Nvidia changes their implementation so that AMD's implementation doesn't work anymore. I can't think of any instance where this has happened. So that is the primary argument I wanted to push back against.
The secondary argument is that I feel like Nvidia has been the company that has been the most active in pushing new features and standards. That doesn't mean AMD has never pushed the industry forward (I gave three examples above), but it feels like Nvidia has been responsible for the majority share in the last 15 or so years.
MrMPFR@reddit
I agree. The entire push around ML and RT and DXR12U's other headline features eclipses AMD's async compute and mantle push since GCN.
However AMD's work graphs push with RDNA 5 and whatever other stuff they introduce nextgen will give NVIDIA some much needed competition.
randomkidlol@reddit
mantle/vulkan was the biggest offender. AMD was way ahead of the curve and nobody batted an eye. only when the industry really started shifting towards lower level APIs did nvidia start to invest into a decent vulkan and dx12 driver stack.
LAwLzaWU1A@reddit
That's not how I remember it. AMD and DICE developed Mantle and it got a ton of attention. Quite a few big games got support for it as well. The reason why it didn't quite catch on was limited support (even on AMD's own hardware) and it was proprietary, so the industry started working on more open implementations which resulted in Vulkan and DX12.
It fundamentally changed how the future APIs were designed so I think it's weird to say "nobody batted an eye". It was also brought up constantly in conversations and discussions. Mantle wasn't really a driver thing though. It was an API that the driver needed to support (as well as the hardware). Nvidia couldn't invest time and effort into a "low level driver stack" before the standards were set.
randomkidlol@reddit
even after the standards were set (ie after dx12 and vulkan officially launched) there were serious performance issues on nvidia hardware if you used those apis. its definitely improved on modern hardware now that the whole industry has shifted.
i do recall vulkan getting support on older nvidia hardware (ie maxwell and pascal) but im not sure if all the perf improvements done for newer hardware got backported.
MrMPFR@reddit
Paxwell lol yeah that was a derivative of Maxwell, a response to the horrible perf/watt of Fermi and squeezing perf/watt for mobile. Zero attention to compute and low level APIs.
Impossible to backport stuff, the HW wasn't there. But 20 series had some very impressive hardware changes and finally catched up with GCN in async compute and other capabilities.
I remember some games that used to benefit GCN cards running insanely well on 20 series. Doom and some other game had 50-60% perf gains on 2080 TI vs 1080 TI at launch.
u/LAwLzaWU1A yeah Mantle proved why proprietary stuff is a bad idea. NVIDIA has monopoly market share rn so they can get away with it and get stuff done, but AMD nah.
Good to see them working on standardization with MS though. DXR 2.0 and SM 6.10 will be a big deal.
Smart choice by AMD to not introduce work graphs on their own but work alongside MS. Expecting more of the same with nextgen based on Jason Ronald's GDC presentation.
.
It'll be really interesting to see how committed NVIDIA is to work graphs with 60 series, but it does look like AMD is going all out with RDNA 5 clean slate redesign for that paradigm shift. Benefits will spill over to other domains.
randomkidlol@reddit
gameworks, hairworks, physx, gsync/vesa adaptive sync, dlss, nvfbc, etc people here arent old enough to remember all the bullshit nvidia pulls.
railven@reddit
While not a good excuse, AMD was told by the collective community "fake frames" and "raster is king" for a good half of the last decade.
Pretty sure if not for Sony, AMD still be ignoring these features.
Different_Lab_813@reddit
No AMD got with their pants down by nvidia and then they pushed narrative raytracing is too early and raster performance is better than upscalling technologies simultaneously releasing consoles with bare bones ray tracing capabilities and fully aware that gaming industry was using multiple image reconstruction techniques. And consoles chip design development started at around 2015. Even now AMD is dragging their heals.
itsjust_khris@reddit
Hardware isn't like software, by the time as Nvidia pushed ray tracing as hard as they did AMD probably had RDNA1-4 relatively set in stone.
Different_Lab_813@reddit
I would agree to that, but AMD customers were Microsoft and Sony both have their own inhouse gaming studios, both are shaping graphics industry, therefore to pretend that they weren't aware where gaming industry and graphics were moving is just too naive. It was AMD choice to continue same trend, while nvidia saw that more games are using GI solutions running on compute and decided to dedicated die area for HW accelerating ray tracing rather than continue to run versions of it in compute shaders.
Seanspeed@reddit
You're not exaggerating really, most people here just have no idea how this stuff works in reality.
doneandtired2014@reddit
>Maybe I'm exaggerating a bit on the timeline
You're not. The first engineering sample of a GPU has about 2 years of work behind it at the point already.
NeroClaudius199907@reddit
raster is king makes sense if there was research on alternative to taa.
zerinho6@reddit
Oh well, I guess the current solution, which scales down the resolution meaning exponential cascaded performance gains in other areas while also giving the best AA in history and still making the game look good is not the result of deep and extensive research from competent people that know more than me and you.
DLSS 4/4.5, FSR 4 and XeSS 2 are all literally so good right now I have no idea how people still comment this.
NeroClaudius199907@reddit
Dlss is not the best aa in history. Its only better than taa
RearNutt@reddit
DLSS is better than everything except SGSSAA, which is so insanely heavy it can bring down modern GPUs in games from two decades ago.
randomkidlol@reddit
DLSS has so many strange artifacts its borderline unusable for me. older implementations of TAA is a blurry mess, but modern implementations are good enough. MSAA is still the best quality wise.
NeroClaudius199907@reddit
Msaa 2x is already better than dlss. Fxaa is better, smaa is better
RearNutt@reddit
FXAA and SMAA are post-process garbage, MSAA at only 2x barely cleans up anything even in old games with little geometric or specular detail.
Nicholas-Steel@reddit
Are you confusing MSAA and SMAA as being the same thing?
RearNutt@reddit
Nah, I'm referring to solely MSAA 2x without any transparency enhancements.
NeroClaudius199907@reddit
Dlss is blurry garbage and was hated for the past 5 years, it was only slightly better than taa. Sad taa was the final solution for deferred rendering
dudemanguy301@reddit
AMD marketed RX 5000 on sour grapes and redditors ate it up, I would not call that being mislead by the general audience.
EdliA@reddit
The collective community doesn't know shit about anything and I don't blame them. They're not forward thinking engineers. Their solution to everything is more of the same, thinking outside the box is not easy.
Seanspeed@reddit
The idea that Radeon were taking cues from what the average person was saying on Reddit/Youtube comments when designing their new GPU architecture is also insanely laughable.
Seanspeed@reddit
Pretty sure that's all a big strawman, and not at all right in general about AMD still ignoring these things. smh
People really dont understand that Radeon, especially back in like 2018, was tiny compared to Nvidia, do they?
Also, there was plenty of people validly criticizing things like DLSS1 and ray tracing implementations that provided completely terrible graphics improvements for the performance cost. Hell, a lot of people on the other side magically went from 'performance is king' to 'ray tracing is super important' pretty quickly too, ignoring how performance inefficient ray tracing usually was in most games for the longest time.
steve09089@reddit
NVIDIA also ripped off the band-aid before it actually started getting bad for cards that didn't have ML upscaling and ray tracing. That way, by the time it actually did get bad, those cards had already lived out their full lifespan anyway.
Meanwhile, AMD ripped it off later and now faces the consequences because it's not old cards that are suffering, but ones they only released a few years ago, too.
Die4Ever@reddit
16 series is fine because it was cheap. They're still an improvement over their 10 series predecessors, I remember them doing pretty well in Alan Wake 2
MrMPFR@reddit
Because they have Mesh shader support + all the new core stuff giving fine wine over time. Paxwell was a joke architecturally, although very impressive min max design.
Not surprised how well 16 series has aged. Turing was a compute monster and games have gone down that route in the last decade.
theholylancer@reddit
I mean... it is, and it isnt
2000 series transformer models runs in "compatibility" mode, and has a rather large performance impact compared with newer gens
but nvidia developed said mode, and released it to the public with a note saying hey, this isnt maybe the best of idea but go nuts have fun and see what you can live with
AMD had something similar for FSR 4 (because of that source leak lol) but just wont actually release it, either they didnt want the work of putting that out there and the messaging and blowback, or they expect that people would actually spend more on their newer cards because of it and an incentive to upgrade or something
skinlo@reddit
While yes, I guess the question is how many AMD users will actually be affected? The consoles don't support this, and we all know how long developers can take to use new features.
Jank9525@reddit
Said the locked frame gen
Ok_Number9786@reddit
You know, I would have agreed with you in the past, but not anymore. I've tried both FSR FG (which is software-based) and DLSS FG, and they are not comparable. The difference in quality and latency is just insane. DLSS FG x2 can still work perfectly well at a base 35FPS whereas FSR FG can still struggle at base 60fps.
Jank9525@reddit
Irrelevant to what i said. I used xess framegen gen using optiscaler and it was fine, having a bit slower version of framegen is not the end of the world. Yet we have people glazing over dlss tranformer fp8 which 20xx series dont support natively
maruf_sarkar100@reddit
Why did you have to use optiscaler?
Jank9525@reddit
Because nvidia locked framegen behind 4x, 5x series only?
Ok_Number9786@reddit
I didn't make my original point clear, but my point was that the hardware requirement for DLSS FG (the optical flow analyzer, found on the RTX 4000 and 5000 series GPUs) seems to be justified based on how good the results are compared to the alternative software-based solutions which do still work on RTX 2000 and 3000 series GPUs. It's not as simple as just enabling it for older GPUs.
techraito@reddit
3/4 RTX generations have locked frame gen. Exactly one generation of GPUs ever have multi frame generation. What are you on about?
fixminer@reddit
It was.
But having so much market share that you can significantly influence the future of computer graphics certainly helps to make your vision of the future come true.
Malygos_Spellweaver@reddit
8 year old GPUs and even the 2060 can run Black Myth Wukong. Insane R/R in hindsight.
ShogoXT@reddit
Another shader model update that separates RDNA 3 and RDNA 2. I remember the RX 7000 series being a rough launch because of the chiplet design plus even the RX 7600 was somewhat feature deficient.
It had Wave MMA and a bunch of new data type support. Did it end up being a better value once AMD figured out how to code for it and fix the idle power issues? Such as the RX 7900 XT when it went to 600 for a bit there...
iBoMbY@reddit
Another Microsoft Shader Model sponsored by NVidia, adding nothing of value, but hurting the competition.
_hlvnhlv@reddit
Radeon is the one not wanting to implement jack shit on their drivers, and completely abandoning all driver support for RDNA 2
Nvidia sucks, big time, but AMD is not better.
Seanspeed@reddit
This is, once again, a massive and outright total lie.
They have not abandoned ALL driver support for RDNA2 by any means.
Dghelneshi@reddit
I feel like you're missing the context. This is about supporting new features in D3D12. It has happened multiple times now that new APIs come out just after AMD drops driver support for new features for yet another set of architectures and then those new APIs never see any use even though they do not require new hardware to run. Intel also seems very random in what they want to support, so that's yet another hindrance to adoption.
Enhanced Barriers was a big one several years ago, it's essentially just Vulkan's barrier model and can run on any D3D12 hardware, but GCN support was cut off just before and Intel for some reason didn't even bother to implement it on Xe-LP, their latest integrated architecture at the time. Absolutely nobody wants the significant risk and maintenance burden of having two implementations of barriers in their code, so nobody switched to the new better API, even when writing from scratch.
Except for the LinAlg stuff, every feature in this preview is relatively small and it would be feasible to implement fallbacks for older architectures, but at the same time that fallback code would already exist and it might not be worth it to implement the new API paths until you can just get rid of the old code. Since AMD and Intel do not want to bother adding feature support to even slightly older GPUs, that means adoption of new D3D12 features is set back by 5+ years from where it could be. Users mostly won't see this, but as a developer it's deeply annoying having to do things like writing a dozen lines of brittle HLSL code instead of just getting to use the simple
GetGroupWaveIndex()function, only because hardware vendors can't be bothered to support their products even if the actual implementation for these features would likely be copy-paste from the code for the new arch.MrMPFR@reddit
It's a shame AMD and Intel don't bother with anything except latest 1-2 gens but hard to justify for them with little market share and reactive late to the party µarch.
From what I can tell all this new stuff isn't coming anytime soon. Maybe LinAlg, but the rest is post-crossgen. So realistically well into 2030s.
Does that sound accurate and what is the cutoff SM 6.x that game devs are using for actual shipped games rn?
What are your thoughts on the No Graphics API proposal by Sebastian Aaltonen. I heard he has a talk scheduled at SIGGRAPH this year: https://developer.arm.com/community/arm-community-blogs/b/mobile-graphics-and-gaming-blog/posts/moving-mobile-graphics
Do you think it's a good idea for DX13 and Vulkan 2.0?
In case some of you don't want to read the blogpost from December, here's a podcast interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3_UVYFyMno
Dghelneshi@reddit
I'm not sure what you mean. All of the SM6.10 features are things that all relevant hardware already supports and they just weren't exposed directly in the API. LinAlg of course doesn't make sense to support on hardware that has no tensor ALUs and the new ray tracing intrinsics don't make sense on hardware that doesn't do ray tracing, but Turing is 8 years old at this point. Those features are also going to be optional based on the respective feature flags separate to the shader model, so the rest of SM6.10 could ship on some very old architectures. Microsoft has been very careful about what is optional or required in shader models because of the way they are versioned. RDNA2 won't get SM6.10 because AMD decided to not ship new features in the driver, not because there's some hardware reason. Group Wave Index/Count is a convenience feature and closes a gap in the specs that previously had to be filled by ugly workarounds in code, it does not require new hardware. Variable Group Shared Memory is just exposing actual hardware limits instead of a hardcoded limit, does not require new hardware. Batched Asynchronous Command List APIs is not even part of a shader model at all since it requires no new shader (pseudo-)instructions, does not require new hardware. It's all just drivers.
I think this is the wrong question. As I said, Microsoft is careful about only hard requiring things in shader models that are very widely supported, since you can only claim support of a higher number if you support all of the required features for all the previous ones too and they don't want to gatekeep something as simple as
GetGroupWaveIndexbehind a huge feature like Work Graphs. Typically hard requirements are only ubiquitous things that they also want to make sure don't somehow regress when a vendor does a more "clean slate" new design, to give developers some peace and security.SM6.6 is one of the "big" ones with proper bindless resource support required and is supported on any hardware less then 10 years old, so that's a good minimum target even for people targeting a wider audience. As of right now, it seems like SM6.8 is supported on anything since RDNA, Maxwell v1 (from 2014!) and Xe-HPG/LPG (Alchemist/Meteor Lake, not Raptor Lake or earlier which is Xe-LP, thanks Intel for making things maximally confusing and screwing over your customers). SM6.9 only just released 2 months ago and we don't have new reports for all hardware yet, but based on the required features it could be supported all the way back to Turing 16 and possibly even Vega/GCN5 if they wanted to, but of course AMD will restrict it to RDNA3+ because they wanted to hard fork their codebase and not spend effort on even slightly older archs. Still, just supporting SM6.8 or 6.9 doesn't give you anything super big, it doesn't mean you get Work Graphs on RDNA1. There's certainly some improvements/convenience from the smaller required features, but it's not like you'd drop entire generations of hardware for that and whether you'll implement both new and old codepaths is dependent on how much work it is, what the benefit is and how badly it affects code maintainability.
If you really want to dive into the zoo there's this convenient page showing you all the optional D3D12 features and on which architectures they are currently supported (based on user-submitted reports, so it will always lag behind a bit, e.g. the last Turing report is from February). Note this won't show you the required features that don't have their own separate feature flag and are instead subsumed into larger version numbers/tiers, you'd have to look at the respective specs for that (e.g. the shader model specs, ray tracing spec, etc.).
Talking about some big name features, the AAA industry is slowly starting to require ray tracing and/or mesh shaders for some games, so that cuts things down by quite a lot and is easier to justify since they're such big features, potentially changing the entire approach to rendering. I doubt anyone is trying to use Work Graphs outside of experiments at the moment. It's too new and the performance isn't there yet afaik. Sampler Feedback is for some reason a weird pet obsession on reddit because people think it will magically reduce VRAM requirements, but the only things I've heard about it from actual developers is that various parts just do not work at all, every vendor has different bugs and it's harder to use than the existing solutions which everyone already has, so regardless of support nobody seems to actually be using it. Don't believe every tech demo you see does a fair comparison and is actually applicable to the real world. Variable Rate Shading has been widely used for quite a while, especially because it's typically just a relatively easy performance amplifier, so your fallback when not supported is just rendering normally and a bit slower. 16-bit shader ops are quite useful (though not as trivial to optimize for as one might think at first) and afaik used pretty widely, potentially requires fallback 32-bit implementations, mainly to support Pascal since that was such a successful generation and it still has decent market share.
There's obviously a ton of other optional features, it's not like I can talk about them all nor do I have insider knowledge on who is using what. Some of it is API convenience or small optimizations (e.g. tight alignment, create at byte offset, increased 1D dispatch size, etc.). There's Intel regressing on resource heap tier with Xe-HPG, which was really weird but not the biggest deal, the lack of 64-bit atomics on typed resources and group shared hurt more (they shipped a custom extension that provided some limited form of support because otherwise UE5 Nanite wouldn't run on Intel, which would be very bad PR).
Sorry, at this point I'm just rambling randomly and I don't really know what my point was or even what you wanted to know. 😅
There's also this article from a AAA developer with some comments on various D3D12 features introduced since its release.
I've been meaning to read it but haven't yet. I'm also maybe not the right person to ask, my experience is too limited. As a general comment, it's always easy to sit on the sidelines and imagine something better when you don't have to talk to a dozen hardware vendors to get them to align or have reasonable backwards compatibility (and forward compatibility for new hardware designs that you haven't even thought of yet). It would definitely be possible to clean up the current API designs, but it's an incredible amount of work, mostly done by very few people because it's not a revenue generator and a hard cut is always very disruptive.
MrMPFR@reddit
Thanks for the very long and detailed reply. I should have bothered to write a more detailed one though.
I was talking about the non ML and RT stuff. Limiting LinAlg and RT to HW that supports it makes sense.
Yeah and the problem is AMD and their poor track record for supporting older stuff.
Makes sense. So mostly about convenience.
Heard that one was a big deal before.
I assume that cutoff for SM6.8 ignores the Work graphs stuff + any of the DX12U headline features.
Lol Intel even worse with support than AMD then.
Ignore prev comment I can see you imply not covering work graphs and other big new stuff for SM 6.9
So devs just wait for install base to move to newer stuff. A shame but IHVs dictate this unfortunately, but it is what it is.
thx for the link.
Makes sense also given the baseline cost of current gen games. A lot of them very heavy + at some point you gotta abandon the old stuff. mesh shaders and RT def worth it it seems, but I hope for more mesh shader games since so far on PC IIRC we've really only seen at most a handful of games on PC.
Yeah IIRC for example a vulkan dev tested it and it's a joke. It's on the VKD3D-proton github page. compute shader emulation path in vulkan beat the native DX12 implementation. Assume IHVs and MS haven't bothered yet to actually make it perfomant and there are very strong indications in patent filings that AMD has completely rearchitected their GPU in RDNA 5 to make work graphs helluva lot faster.
So TL;DR it's broken and not dev friendly at all. What a shame.
Assuming the other aspect of sampler feedback is texture space shading (TSS) I would appreciate your opinion on why we haven't seen any discussion of this at all. I know PS5 doesn't support it but it's still odd there aren't even any tech demos.
IIRC at GDC 2024 Epic also talked about using VRS to make their engine faster.
Why not trivial to optimize? Yeah good old Pascal holding games back xD.
What a shame. I hope Intel fixes their shit moving forward.
no worries. and appreciate the info.
Yes BWC is a big issue. As for FWC he mentioned the possibility of handling new stuff as extensions rather than baking it into the base API.
Aaltonen has a talk at SIGGRAPH 2026 about the API so perhaps that can get the ball rolling. But I did see it gain a lot of traction already, not surprising though considering his status in the industry.
Perhaps that can lay the groundwork for DX13 and Vulkan 2.0 of IHVs can agree. We'll see.
Henrarzz@reddit
So where are the new features from Shader Model 6.9 and 6.10 on RDNA2?
The architecture is abandoned, it’s time to accept that
Seanspeed@reddit
Oh my god, this has nothing to do with AMD 'dropping' support and simply that old architecture not having the proper capability for support for these new features.
It's fucking unbelievable how little you guys understand this stuff even at the most basic level.
Microsoft isn't sending their new DX12 features around and asking AMD and Nvidia to 'checkbox' which of their GPU architectures will support said features, like it's just some personal choice. ffs. That honestly seems to be how you guys actually think this works and it's fucking embarrassing.
_hlvnhlv@reddit
They haven't implemented the Vulkan descriptor heaps extension, nor the OpenGL mesh shader extension, nor any new DirectX or DXR extension.
That is the driver, this is like having a Windows xp installation and saying that it's not abandoned, as if you roll in some obscure thing, you can get security patches.
Again, that's not really what you should care about in a driver, and Nvidia does implement new features even on their shitty 16xx series GPUs, AMD does not.
inyue@reddit
Why is people afraid of saying that AMD is worse? 😔
_hlvnhlv@reddit
In my case, it was either the 5070 or the 9070XT.
Like, both were at the same price, how is AMD worse? xD
It is literally better in basically everything except not having CUDA
And while yes, the drivers will be an issue, I can use 3rd party drivers, or just go to Linux and use Windows only for VR.
MrMPFR@reddit
Look at HW and SW feature set and game adoption of features. It's objectively worse. the question is is the discount vs 5070 TI big enough to justify a purchase.
_hlvnhlv@reddit
Yes, you're right, but I didn't want to pay 850 or 900 euros for a 5070ti, when the 9070XT was for 600, it's nuts xD
But again, there's Linux, and I can always use a random SSD with windows for things like Rust, or VR.
There's not enough difference to make me care about it, really
MrMPFR@reddit
Yeah and for most people the tradeoff is worth it with MSRP gap in pricing.
250-300 euro difference is insane xD
_hlvnhlv@reddit
It's really bad, like, for that price, it was either the 5070 or 9070XT lol
This was around October
MrMPFR@reddit
A choice between 5070 vs 9070 XT isn't going to be hard fs.
6070 better go 18GB. This VRAM skimping BS business gotta end.
Mordho@reddit
What competition? Nvidia are the ones actually introducing advancements and pushing innovative tech.
cp5184@reddit
novideo the ml llm company? When was the last time they released a gpu? Two years ago?
So this innovation pushing bleeding edge GPU company HAS to have a new GPU just around the corner, right?
Their ml llm chips are almost a year ahead of schedule...
iDontSeedMyTorrents@reddit
Less than a year ago, lol. Which is the same time frame that AMD released their last GPUs.
Probably around the actual 2-year mark.
What was even your point with this comment?
cp5184@reddit
rtx 6xxx launched less than a year ago?
So no videos now following behind AMD?
Pointing out that novideo stated a few years ago it was no longer a GPU company and GPUs are no longer their focus and that they haven't released a new gpu in a long time and they won't release a new gpu in a long time.
That no video is no longer even putting out new gpus much less advancing anything or doing anything innovative wrt gpus.
iDontSeedMyTorrents@reddit
First of all, constantly calling Nvidia "novideo" makes you sound like an idiot that nobody should ever take seriously.
Nice moving goalposts. You know RDNA4 isn't a ground-up new architecture, either?
Still moving? So now it's not just a new architecture, it has to be new innovation in every architecture?
Lol.
Lmao, even.
I seem to remember AMD cancelling their big reveal and waiting to follow Nvidia's launch so they could pull off their typical Nvidia -$50 tactic.
They both launched around the same time, it doesn't really matter or change anything.
DLSS, RT, PT, Ray Reconstruction, frame gen, multi-frame gen, Remix, Relfex, etc.
What's not innovative about those? Why is AMD always having to play catch-up? What was the last big thing AMD came up with? Where will the goalposts be this time?
cp5184@reddit
It's a reminder that novideos distanced itself from it's gpu business choosing instead to focus on ml llm not on gpus.
False.
Are you claiming that novideo released an update to it's rtx 5xxx architecture?
If they want to be innovative they have to innovate
That's what you're arguing. That novideo hasn't fallen behind in novideos pursuit of AMD.
Don't blame me because you made a bad argument.
So the 9070xt is ~$1,450?
So novideo abandoned graphics about a decade ago?
This isn't about AMD.
iDontSeedMyTorrents@reddit
So nothing. Clearly trolling and not going to engage you further.
mysticzoom@reddit
Yes! It used to be both sides, spending on R&D.
The problem is since ATI was bought by AMD, they have seriously lagged behind in R&D even when they have great hardware.
chapstickbomber@reddit
Pushing is the right word
railven@reddit
He meant GTX owners vs RTX owners, d'uh! /s
MrMPFR@reddit
RX 7600 has full feature support just weaker core due to RDNA2 VGPR size.
Not having chiplet woes is a benefit.
TechTechTerrible@reddit
I got a 7900xtx for 780 and for 1440p gaming it’s solid even with some RT. Its pure raster performance is still really impressive. The lack of a decent upscaler is the biggest downside.
MrMPFR@reddit
For the millionth time Radeon. Give us FSR4 INT8.
mysticzoom@reddit
"Another shader model update that separates RDNA 3 and RDNA 2."
And thats why I had to leave AMD with my next purchase. They stopped supporting thier own shit. Why should I when they don't?
MrMPFR@reddit
Can anyone explain if any of the new features will have a significant impact on performance.
E.g: Batched Asynchronous Command List APIs, Group Wave Index, and Variable Group Shared Memory.
Looks like preview for DXR 2.0 will land it the fall. Maybe fully shipped at GDC 2027.
MrMPFR@reddit
Some thoughts on the new Shader Model here (it's hidden in the reply thread) by u/Dghelneshi:
https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/1sxpfin/comment/oisyhr6/
_hlvnhlv@reddit
And as always, no RDNA2 support at all :)
Youtubers should talk more about this sort of bullshit