Vent: clowning emotos make me rage.
Posted by No_Home_708@reddit | ebikes | View on Reddit | 176 comments
I've been building ebikes for over a decade. Deep inside I always knew that regulation would come for us. We had it so good in the early days. Then the mass market overpowered ebikes began hitting the streets. It was just a matter of time before the unwashed masses who are nothing more than consumers rather than enthusiasts (not to mention the packs of teenagers who don't give a f about anyone) would ruin this hobby by bringing down the law on everyone. I am seeing outright bans spreading from suburb to suburb. I doubt class 1/2 even survives this. We might end up lucky to even get 250 watts and 16mph instead of outright bans. Just another hobby ruined by the inevitable regulation that follows mass market adoption.
disp0sableacc0unt@reddit
Don't blame kids for harsh legislation. You're acting like these politicians are forced to make draconian bills
CraziFuzzy@reddit
While the frustration with bad riders is understandable, the attitude towards gatekeeping ebikes to only 'enthusiests' is a pretty bad take.
No_Home_708@reddit (OP)
No, it's not when the hobby must either regulate itself or be externally regulated. The gatekeeping was purely organic, reality itself gatekeeps many hobbies and keeps out the unmotivated, the unintelligent, the terminally extrinsically motivated clowns. By organically filtering those people out, self regulation is possible. Until mass production overcomes those organic barriers. Once the barriers fall, the horde comes in, attracts regulation and the hobby is never the same. Doesn't apply to every category of hobby, but does to many.
CraziFuzzy@reddit
Transportation is not a hobby.
No_Home_708@reddit (OP)
ThIS NeW HoBbY CoULd bE CatEgoRizED aS TrAnspoRtAtion TheRefOre iT iS a HuMaN RiGHT.
CraziFuzzy@reddit
I said nothing about rights, and acting like a child does nothing to support your points. You CAN be an automotive enthusiast, but you are not required to be an enthusiest to drive a car. The same for riding a train. To think that bicycles, older than both, are somehow different than this is incredibly short sighted.
No_Home_708@reddit (OP)
Nothing you are saying is disputing any of my points. All you did was making this broad categorization about "transportation" as if it means anything. As if it is somehow mutually exclusive with a hobby or it somehow bestows some magic that negates why organic gatekeeping doesn't have benefits. So what am I to do but mock it.
No_Home_708@reddit (OP)
Nothing you are saying is disputing any of my points.
No_Home_708@reddit (OP)
Suck a dick
Cultural-Evening6229@reddit
What about the massive packs of dirt bikes and atvs that ride illegally on streets, cops just follow em around when they should be arresting them.
Major_Alley_Cat@reddit
In my experience it's the e-scooters that are ruining it for everybody riding the opposite direction in traffic, riding on the highway and going way too fast in the bike Lanes . Same story now new laws are being implemented August of this year mandatory Insurance driver's license And license plates and registration. for any e-bike and e-scooters. that goes over 15mph. I mostly ride Class 2 and class 3 e-bikes. I always wear a helmet and ride responsibly and my e-bikes saves me a ton of money on gas. My car is has a V8 in it and as matter of fact the amount of money that I save riding my e-bike on gas pays for the e-bike and also has positive effects on environment as well. Also I'm concerned about the cost of having mandatory Insurance on an e-bike I currently have a gas-powered motorcycle that cost almost as much to insure as my car does..
Otaraka@reddit
I think a lot of people don’t realise how much pushback there’s been from pedestrians even with the normal ebikes. Walking groups etc were a big part of the submissions with the law changes coming up in Queensland. I doubt it’s any much different in other countries unless they have already have very good quality biking infrastructure.
CraziFuzzy@reddit
That's not likely the cause in the US. There aren't any pedestrians here.
genuineforgery@reddit
Aussie boomers gather in swarms in queensland. The get-off-my-lawn resentment of the young group-think forms a dense and overwhelming political atmosphere.
Otaraka@reddit
I think a bit of the blame has to be put on how ebikes do tend to go down shared paths.
It’s more the exception than the norm for people to go past in a way that’s not really very safe and they can even be a bit of a aggressive aspect to it that gives the impression that pedestrians shouldn’t be on the path at all how close they cut it at times. It used to be just the Tour de France wannabe’s but now it’s them too.
Major_Alley_Cat@reddit
In some areas I ride my e-bike there's are dedicated bike Lanes with sidewalk next it for pedestrians and transit law says that bikes should only use the bike Lanes. The new legislation passed in coming into effect now says e-bikes are prohibited from riding in the bike Lanes. Now I'll be stuck on my class 3 ebike impeding traffic at 25 Mph with cars going 30-40 Mph.
genuineforgery@reddit
Yes it's weirdly spiteful details like that and the absurd 10kmh limits just for e-bikes that indicate there's nothing rational about the queensland approach. It's just appealing to the frothy mouthed cranks. Sadly, they get their way too often, regardless of what road statistic say. Some of the cranks are the very same Tour de France wannabes too I'd guess, they continue to treat shared paths like race tracks, like the entitled pricks they are.
Meanwhille countries like Switzerland have had rational comprehensive laws categorising bikes from mopeds to motorbikes for decades, complete with effective deterrents for young people to improve their behaviour. This has easily adapted to e-bikes. Meanwhile in stone age Australia it'll take another ten years or so for those laws to arrive here after millions of dollars will be raised in pointless fines as we wait for that tedious generation to die off.
genuineforgery@reddit
Although weirdly enough I was just in queensland and saw loads of e-bikes riding around no problem at all. On the footpath or off, courteous amongst traffic and pedestrians.
It's almost as if the fuss and policy is mostly being fed by mushroom people who stay indoors and are fed bullshit all day long. Say it ain't so.
Otaraka@reddit
Well that certainly counts as a comprehensive survey with no chance of bias at all.
genuineforgery@reddit
The road statistics indicate cars and motorcycles as a higher cause of death and injury. In NSW half of the deaths involving e-bikes were caused by a motor vehicle.
You could go and reference such objective documents if you wish. Or you could could continue basing your opinion on the vibe you get when e-bikes are around. I wonder which you will choose.
Otaraka@reddit
You are shifting the goal posts from the original point about shared pathways and ebike behaviour on them vs pedestrians. We both know why.
You can keep arguing it if you like, but the debate has already moved on really, and only people like yourself are seriously disputing it. Now its if a more workable solution can be found than the current proposals.
genuineforgery@reddit
I've already stated my view that qld will continue to have bad ebike laws for most likely a decade because its decision making is based on boomer vibes. This isn't a debate as you've been confirming rather than arguing that view. You can cherry pick and special plead your way out of the conversation if that makes you feel better, no one is keeping score.
Otaraka@reddit
Use whatever names you like, it hurts your case more than it helps it.
I dont agree with the QLD 'solution'. But it doesnt mean there wasn't a problem.
Major_Alley_Cat@reddit
Yes I agree the Tour de France wannabes/ bicycle purists are the worst..
Otaraka@reddit
Its a goldilocks situation in general. Too fast shared for pathways, too slow for roads. And yet there's something here that has a lot of value.
Ranccor@reddit
You can check insurance rates right now. I priced mine a few weeks ago and it wasn’t too bad.
Major_Alley_Cat@reddit
It's going to cost $150 to $250 a year to ensure an e-bike where I live I also have a few e-bikes . So that's going to be great ensuring every one of them independently if Insurance isn't going to cover me as a one rider under a umbrella policy for all bikes.
heskey30@reddit
Mandatory insurance laws are just punitive/throwing a bone to insurance companies. Legal ebikes aren't gonna hit much harder than a regular bike.
cutsnek@reddit
Class 1 will survive, that is very close to European standard which is used in a lot of other places around the world.
Where I live it's 250w continuous power, 25 k/m per hour maximum assist for pedalic. 6 k/m per hour for throttle assist. This had been in place for a long time but only really being enforced now that these emotos dressing up as bicycles started appearing.
Now police are really cracking down on this class of bike. Including strict safety and design requirements and banning imports for low quality ebikes which nearly all of the bikes being hooned around by teenagers fall into this category.
bensonr2@reddit
NJ's crackdown is requiring non existant registration and insurance even for class 1 along with licensing. So don't event take class 1 for granted.
Smooth_Tell2269@reddit
There is pushback and what I heard they are going to amend the law to exclude non throttle class 1 bikes
bensonr2@reddit
There is pushback from some bike advocacy group. But I hear way more noise from non bikers excited about this and every day on social media a different town police department posts another ai generated “fact sheet” about the ebike law.
Smooth_Tell2269@reddit
The ignorant masses
Ranccor@reddit
It seems You will be able to register your bike in NJ by the time the law goes into effect and insurance is easy to get. I’m not saying it doesn’t suck and isn’t a stupid law, but it will be possible to comply.
bensonr2@reddit
Yeah as a state resident I am highly skeptical.
The state actually put a law in 5 years ago that class 3 bikes require registration for street use. The MVC (our dmv) to this day does not have a system in place for class 3 registration.
evaan-verlaine@reddit
Part of the reason I opted for a buying a class 1 recently instead of a bike that could function as a class 2-3 was seeing the writing on the wall. My state/county has few restrictions on ebikes right now, but I wouldn't be shocked if that changes within the year.
Temporary-Film-7374@reddit
when you refer to "emotos" do you mean Surrons etc, or something that has at least vestigial pedals?
evaan-verlaine@reddit
Both, some dirt bike style and some where the vestigial pedals don't look like they're useful or used.
cutsnek@reddit
I just purchased a new class 1 bike as well, although I have been riding class 1 ebikes for the last decade but I don't want to get my bike seized. Anything above class 1 where I live is basically asking to be harassed and heavily fined by police.
Not interested in throttles or high max speed.
CerberusOCR@reddit
In classic Aussie fashion they’ll just create more laws rather than enforce the ones that already make hooning on an e-moto illegal.
STIHL_Resolve5198@reddit
I can hit 45 mph on my self powered mechanical, all it takes is that little extra oh and i ride all gears engage so the toughest terrain times the most resistance
Fit_Buyer6760@reddit
Strava or it didn't happen
ArseneWainy@reddit
You should go in the Tour de France, there’s literally hundreds of thousands of dollars on offer from sponsors for people that can sustain that level of performance
STIHL_Resolve5198@reddit
But passports and transportation cost, actually if i got a spot in the tour de france it would be taken care of yea. Never thought about it but id need a new bike and gear. Its an interesting idea
STIHL_Resolve5198@reddit
Like i can almost pass cars going on my bike, never thought about clocking my speed
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
When I'm running late and have a 100 mile journey,I ditch the car and hop on my pedal power unassisted bike.
cutsnek@reddit
Yup and I can go faster than 25 k/m hour on a normal bicycle. The main issues I see is these are basically motorbikes being handed to kids with basically zero riding experience and an under developed frontal lobe is a recipe for what we are seeing happen now.
Yes, kids can get up to stupid stuff on a push bike, but I doubt many of them have the skill level to ride at 45 mph doing a wheely down the freeway on a standard bicycle.
demand_more@reddit
Australia?
cutsnek@reddit
Yup, Australia.
markloch@reddit
I suspect we'll see class-1's left alone (20mph) and anything with a throttle requiring some kind of licensing, for both the bike and the rider. Class-2 might be register bike + minimum age requirement. Not sure how to deal with throttle-free class-3.
For everything faster/more powerful, we could use new classifications, because the existing ones - in CA, moped, motor-driven cycle (basically a lower-powered motorcycle not allowed on highways), motorcycle - don't quite map onto electrically-powered cycles very well.
In addition to implementing licensing for what amount to electric mopeds and motorcycles, the same set of safety requirements should be applied - lighting is the obvious one, not sure if there are other requirements like govern, for example, braking).
Bottom line, like it or not, e-bikes are diversifying into segments that need to be regulated, just not by the pearl-clutching Karens and Chads in our legislatures responding in knee-jerk fashion.
stormdelta@reddit
Which is ridiculous since class 2 has literally the exact same speed and power restrictions as class 1. Making it about throttle only proves that the rules are about making ebikes less practical as an alternative to cars rather than anything to do with safety.
thishasntbeeneasy@reddit
But we've had 20-25mph motor powered cycles for a long time, and those are mopeds which generally required license, registration, insurance, and helmets. Just because it's now potentially the shape of a bicycle doesn't negate that it's a motorized vehicle with a throttle. That doesn't mean they shouldn't exist, but it's much closer to a moped than a pedal assisted bicycle.
maximumpynk@reddit
"If a vehicle exceeds 20 mph on throttle alone, or is powered by a motor larger than 750 watts, it belongs in the moped or motorcycle category." That's the current definition being given to lawmakers to help them differentiate between e-bikes and e-motos.
We're hoping to preserve the current class 3 system. So far lawmakers seem to be on board.
stormdelta@reddit
20-28mph is not a moped by any useful definition that has anything to do with safety, because forcing something that can only go 28mph into roads that have cars going 40mph+ is insane.
And yes, that is what you'd be doing desire all the disingenuous charades pretending to care about safety.
If you want to mark these as higher than class 3 with more restrictions, sure, but they're not mopeds let alone motorcycles. Anything that can only use roads must be capable of higher speeds.
maximumpynk@reddit
Vehicles that go faster than 28 on throttle or have these large motors are emotos, mopeds, motorcycles.
Safety is the sincere goal here.
stormdelta@reddit
Faster than 28mph, I would agree.
My issue is with defining bikes that are only 20-28mph as "mopeds" as they cannot safely be used exclusively on roads even just within cities due to the insufficient speed.
maximumpynk@reddit
Yeah. over 28 they'll fall under e-motos, mopeds, or motorcycles.
licensing/registration/etc for those vehicles will need to be dealt with separate from this push. Hopefully the clarity will fix most issues. Right now, they are hurting the legitimate e-bike market and cyclists.
stormdelta@reddit
Once again, a class 2 has literally the exact same power and speed requirements as a class 1. A throttle does not magically impart more power or speed.
Also, gas mopeds are significantly larger, heavier, and louder than ebikes. The comparison isn't valid.
Moreover, 20-25mph cannot safely be used on most US roads that are frequently >30mph. Mopeds were legislated out of existence on purpose in the US, and might as well not exist.
markloch@reddit
I agree as far as adults or minors with partially-developed frontal lobes go, but having had a couple of middle schoolers crash through my fence on their POS class-2 because, basically, they have no idea how bikes work, no experience-developed sense of how velocity and momentum and acceleration interplay, something you should learn with a regular bike when you're, like, six or seven, never mind two kids on one bike is always a stupid idea.
So: as someone 16+, register a class-2 e-bike for a few bucks, slap a sticker or whatever on it, you're good to go.
stormdelta@reddit
Are you sure it was a class 2 and not an illegal e-dirtbike?
In any case, most people support minor age restrictions, that's not a good reason to screw over adult access to practical transportation.
And I'd rather reckless people use an e-bike than a car.
picklesoupkitchen@reddit
Land of the free? Keep voting against your best interests
Laughs in Canadian
AVBofficionado@reddit
Yep, it's inevitable. You can't have performance, unregistered powered bicycles without expecting idiots to give them a bad impression. With kids where I am riding them on major roads at 45mph/70kmh, there will definitely be a crackdown.
Smart_Classroom2668@reddit
I’m 40 and ride mine that fast not just kids
watisagoodusername@reddit
As long as it's registered as a modped with insurance, not an issue at all
Theunmedicated@reddit
That's bad
MiraFlynn8203@reddit
Hopefully any crackdown focuses more on enforcement and education rather than punishing everyone across the board.
BluesRuseCruise@reddit
You’re probably not wrong. A group of teenagers just got e-bikes banned from the main shopping plaza where I live due to their behavior.
Particular_Box_3598@reddit
It should be the behavior that they punish. Here in Utah they are requiring kids under 16 to take a course and getting certified before being able to ride an ebike on public roads.
You don't see cars being banned because they can drive past 70mph.
SexiestPanda@reddit
Well the automobile and oil industries have lots of money to buy off politicians. Ebike(/emoto) industry does not. Simple as that
thewimsey@reddit
Jesus. Get a grip, use your brain and stop going immediately to marxist conspiracy theories.
Because it's beyond dumb to believe that politicians would put significant restrictions on cars except that they are being paid off.
They aren't restricting cars because 99% of the population uses cars. Including the politicians. Cars are very popular.
You don't have to "follow the money". You just have to look around you.
SexiestPanda@reddit
And how did we get to car centrism?
Arm-Complex@reddit
The car literally props up the entire economy, and greases the wheels of nearly everyone's life. Of course there's oil lobbying etc etc. but the automobile is much more central to literally EVERYTHING than ebikes are.
not_ray_not_pat@reddit
lmao, you think living in Tokyo or Paris or Amsterdam is the dark ages? The car industry literally lobbied to destroy non-car transportation infrastructure like trams and shared roadways, and directly encouraged planning decisions that caused car-centrism. Car-centric cities were made that way by choice, (encouraged by oil and car industry money) and we can make other choices to change them.
Arm-Complex@reddit
Straw man argument. I literally acknowledged oil lobbyists. I don't like car-centric cities or lifestyles for that matter. I have an ebike, I love ebikes and public transit. I'm also aware that the automobile enables the current world we enjoy. I don't think in black vs white.
not_ray_not_pat@reddit
I wasn't suggesting that we'd be better off if cars and trucks didn't exist at all - that is an actual straw man.
Where I suspect we agree is that with better planning decisions, trucks and cars could make up a much smaller slice of shipping and personal transportation, largely in favour of trains for both and feet/bikes/other transit for the latter. We have lots of other places to look to for examples of this.
What I disagreed with was the idea that once automobiles existed they were so obviously superior to the alternatives that they quickly took off and it was inevitable they would become almost the exclusive mode of transportation in most North American cities, and that car-centrism is a necessary trade-off to have fresh food, distributed supply chains, regional trade, labour mobility, etc.
In fact, cars took a while to reach saturation, and a lot of the regulatory, land use, and planning decisions that led us there were made under intense lobbying from car and oil companies.
Among the disadvantages cars had at their introduction, the number of people they killed and maimed was a big one. Prior to cars, streets were shared by pedestrians, horse drawn carts, hand carts, strollers, bicycles (at the end), etc, who kind of mutually agreed not to run into each other. Cars were quite bad at this and the consequences were horrifying, and lots of towns considered banning them. Instead, under lobbying, the old practice of "using the street" was redefined as "jaywalking", so instead of hitting a pedestrian being an offense by the driver it was the pedestrian's own fault for breaking the rules; and the introduction of civil traffic laws and liability insurance meant that most traffic deaths and injuries were handled as minor infractions rather than as manslaughter or criminal negligence.
Other unnecessary changes that cars required included mandating a massive supply of parking (trains and trams and taxis, on the other hand, leave when you finish using them), the space taken by which made all other ways of getting around less feasible; the underdevelopment or demolition of public transit; handwaving away the health and environmental effects of pollution (including a cigarette-level conspiracy to deny the harms of leaded gasoline; I could go on.
Anyway, point being, while trucks or cars are undeniably the best for a few specific use cases which are important to modern life, the vast majority of their collective mileage wouldn't be needed for our current quality of life but for a century's worth of planning and regulatory decisions that were made under pressure from the car lobby (which nowadays includes regular folks who can't really conceive of any other lifestyle). We can actually start making better decisions now though, so please do vote in municipal elections.
Ol_Man_J@reddit
Yes and what about the rest of the world that isn't a major city like tokyo? What about something like Battle Mountain, Nevada? Imagine living in a town in the American West that wasn't on a rail stop? How long to get goods in or out via ebike? I understand car centric decisions were made but that's taking any responsibly away from the PEOPLE who rushed right out to buy cars.
ominous_squirrel@reddit
Ah yes, Denmark and the Netherlands famously stuck in the Dark Ages
Imagine thinking that 19th century motorwagen technology is the key to the future
Arm-Complex@reddit
Ah yes, doubling down on your straw man argument. How does Denmark get their food from the farm to the grocery store?
I have an ebike, I love ebikes. I love transit. I'm also not pea-brained enough to think in black vs white. I'm aware that the automobile launched the world into levels otherwise impossible.
A car gives millions of people access to 1,000s more jobs within a reachable radius. It speeds up sharing of resources and integration of regions. It connects talent to talent.
ominous_squirrel@reddit
Ah yes, 1884, famously the Dark Ages
Two of us can play the Motte and Bailey fallacy
SexiestPanda@reddit
…… because the car industry lobbied against anything else lol
GrimCheeferGaming@reddit
By being anti public transportation! Yay!
No_Home_708@reddit (OP)
The car companies don't fear ebikes. There are fucking FORD branded ebikes/emotos for christ sake. https://ford-bikes.com
ominous_squirrel@reddit
Americans think cars are necessary because GM and Goodyear and oil-gas worked to create these conditions. This isn’t a conspiracy. It’s just history
Xandred_the_thicc@reddit
"The US economy is car-centric because of lobbying by the car industry" is probably the least conspiratorial thing a person can say.
Ol_Man_J@reddit
You're right, they only need a series of tests, insurance, registration, and a complicated series of laws and regulations around them, including road design for safe travel, and even production of vehicles! Oh and lets not even talk about fines and penalties for infractions! Youre right, not banned, but sure as hell not something you can order on amazon and then go do without ramifications.
BluesRuseCruise@reddit
It should be, but they also tried that and it didn’t work so they landed on no e-bikes. No one is happy about it; not the shopping plaza or the people in my town cause it’s more than just kids who ride them. But unfortunately it was about safety. When they got banned from the sidewalk they started playing in the parking lot and when they got told to stop that they refused. Cops have been called to talk to them multiple times.
ominous_squirrel@reddit
Impound the bikes if kids are breaking laws or tresspassing. Cops just don’t want to do their jobs
BluesRuseCruise@reddit
Now that they’re banned from the plaza that’s what the cops will be doing.
Singnedupforthis@reddit
Utah used to ban ebikes for kids without a parent with them. Utah eased their restrictions for the most part.
rewt127@reddit
Driving a car on a public road without Licensure is banned. That is really the root of this. There is no licensure, no accountability, nothing, with ebikes.
Lighttamer@reddit
🤡
94RideAndPlay@reddit
For reference - see drones.
No_Home_708@reddit (OP)
Yep, that was one of my previous hobbies that got killed by DJI. I was deep into fixed wing and helis 15 years ago.
cutsnek@reddit
So was I and it's another case of "This is why we can't have nice things" . Anywhere I would be interested in filming these days are basically no fly zones. I haven't taken my drone out in years as a result.
ominous_squirrel@reddit
Bring back kite photography?
badhabitfml@reddit
I got one for my birthday. I can't fly at my house because I live in a no fly zone. Vacation? Often blocked there too because of temporary no fly zones.
Dpizzle22@reddit
Ironically it's DJI who is also about to kill trail access for MTB as well.
tokin247@reddit
Ayeee helis ftw!!
Dirtbagdownhill@reddit
I was present for a small wildfire and when the helicopter that was trying to fight it landed near me and the pilot came running down the beach asking where the drone pilot was I told him. The drone was flying around the heli. Absolute terrible behavior. The drone went down so fast I wondered if the pilot had grabbed the remote. If anything those should have started with licensing requirements.
BertrandOrwell@reddit
Yeah, I just build my own and fly them in secluded spots, or use sub 250 builds in places where it might attract attention.
Lonesome_Pine@reddit
Say it with me everybody: "That's why we can't have nice things."
Proxy345@reddit
Blame youtube and the companies that keep making faster ebikes and e-scooters every year. Some e-scooters on the market can reach 90mph.
Dirt_Bike_Zero@reddit
Blame the parents for buying them for children.
maximumpynk@reddit
Companies know parents won't be able to keep up with the many things kids throw at them to buy, doing extensive research on each one. They have the same issues with their own kids. That's why we have consumer protection groups because the cons ran by these companies are never ending. They want that sweet money. Kids turning into meat crayons be damned.
SadisticPawz@reddit
Hate it so much but I won't stop.
snoogins355@reddit
Iphones are banned, just use a fax machine!!!
ntech620@reddit
I;m thinking that the simplest solution would be declaring class 3 and above are motorcycles or scooters. Get the kids off the highpowered stuff. Keep the class ones and twos with 20mph speed limits. As much as I hate thinking I need a motorcycle letter on the driver's license and a plate co my class 3 it's probably coming.
snoogins355@reddit
People expecting cops to do anything will be very disappointed
No_Home_708@reddit (OP)
At this point I would accept this as a compromise
Stoked_Otter@reddit
Guess what; the laws aren't going to stop the riders that you hate so much for enjoying their ebikes in ways that you don't approve of. They will continue to ride. The laws will stop you from riding.
So does it make sense to give an inch to regulation? Ever? Not as far as I can tell. Even if you never broke a rule on your ebike.
stormdelta@reddit
Was with you until this part. Sensible regulation is fine, the problem is many of the laws being proposed, especially garbage like the corrupt ban in NJ, are not sensible.
snoogins355@reddit
I swear that is some car dealership fuckery as gas prices go crazy high and people look at alternatives
coop_stain@reddit
Lol so regulation is always a bad thing? Regulation is a necessary part of society whether you like it or not.
MSchulte@reddit
This. It may keep some small fraction of kids from getting their 2500w beast but it’ll be negligible. If anything we’ll see more sketchier homemade rigs where kids with zero understanding of electrical engineering try to bodge one together with incompatible parts.
Stoked_Otter@reddit
These bikes are mostly "off road use only" already and it doesn't seem to impact the ability to import them, or the demand for them at all.
4Looper@reddit
This sub actively encouraged emotorcycles on the streets forever. If people stuck to class 3 instead of wanting to to go 50 mph on throttle we wouldn't be here but here we are. Manufacturers also have a lot of blame since they sell shit that is illegal.
coop_stain@reddit
This. It was always bound to happen the way people counted and went against basic common sense.
It’s a tragedy of the commons situation. And honestly it’s fuckin necessary. Not just kids, but completely out of shape never ridden a bike before people going 30mph+ because they got too many DUIs and need a way around town that they don’t have to play the car kazoo to get started.
snoogins355@reddit
I just like riding my bike commuting 27 miles each way and don't like cars passing me at 40mph.
Cops could enforce rules now. More laws/regulations do not mean more enforcement. Just like having licenses, registration and insurance doesn't make cars safe.
4Looper@reddit
The DUI thing is so common it's crazy. We already know they're menaces to society - let's give them the ability to drive at 50mph without a license or insurance.
rewt127@reddit
I definitely agree that the outright bans are getting ridiculous.
But imo the ebike world in of themselves seem to be allergic to any kind of sensible, enforceable regulations. Its a part of the reason for this.
This whole "but i dont want to get a license or pay a registration fee. Waaaaah". And we end up with issues. Meanwhile if the ebike space had actively lobbied for requiring a basic drivers license and a permanent plate. That would have basically solved every problem over night.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
The vast majority of the issues arise from kids riding e-motos illegally. How would the rest of us adults with licenses already paying registration fees for our class 1/2/3 ebikes change any of this? Let's be real indeed, kids would still be riding without a license, insurance, and registration on public roads and trails.
rewt127@reddit
And how is an officer who isnt up to date on the differences supposed to know the difference. Yeah some are obvious because they are literally dirt bikes. But that isnt all of them. There are a good number with vestigial pedals.
Unless the cops stop every single one, how the jell are they supposed to know without an encyclopedic knowledge of them.
Or, they look at it, if it is an ebike without a plate. You light them up. Done.
STIHL_Resolve5198@reddit
Ebikes need love to, not that kind, but yea a dedicated area of town in every township, where we can occasionally go to get away, parking lots just dont seem safe, like i was at nearly 45⁰ sideway on flat ground and my pedal was down, an caught the asphalt, i was in an unoccupied parking overflow and tore my leg up, pretty intense also seem like i fucked up my hip
Winter_Bullfrog_2343@reddit
Next on r/ebikes : Old man shakes fist at cloud.
GoodMerlinpeen@reddit
Now on r/ebikes : dude sticks his head in the sand, doesn't see the approaching wave
Winter_Bullfrog_2343@reddit
Circle jerking complaints about it for upvotes should stop it, right? Right?!
thefistspill@reddit
E-bikes don't kill people, people kill people.
Jaded_Assistance_906@reddit
Everyone keeps blaming the kids while yes in part it is their fault but nobody sees that the government only sees money signs. On top of that, why is nobody blaming the police for not stopping the emotos? There are videos of people riding up to police and asking them if they care if people ride them and they say no.
trtsmb@reddit
Blame should start with the parents since they're the ones buying their entitled little brats e-motos instead of regular bicycles.
FrenchFatCat@reddit
To be honest though, what more could anyone possibly want out of an electronically assisted bicycle than a 250w decent mid drive. Theyre absolutely fantastic.
No_Home_708@reddit (OP)
I think 750 watts with a hard 20mph limit would be reasonable for hilly areas.
liamnajor2@reddit
even 750 is asinine. Depending on the motor, I have had to walk up 10-20% grades because the motor was too weak. I weight 130lb. If it is a problem for me, it's probably a problem for you too. It should be a speed limit without a power cap, especially in america, land of whales.
dark_roast@reddit
Hills. I've ridden 250w mid-drives up the steep inclines of my city, and you can do it but it's painful. If you're in a city with flat terrain, maybe 250w would be enough. The current 750w class 2 limit is enough to get up most steep hills without feeling like you're going to tip over because you're moving so slowly.
Also, while mid-drives are getting more reasonable, hubs are a lot cheaper at the same level of hill climbing prowess. But a 250w hub really won't get you up a hill. Capping power at such a low level harms lower income people.
Duct_TapeOrWD40@reddit
As a motorcyclist and E-biker I understand your problem. Seeing these practical electric toys get more restrictions and higher age requirements than 50cc motorbikes is really crazy.
I just wondering that here a 14 years old can get licence and ride an Aprilia RX50 (a real 2 stroke dirtbike) legally while a 25 year old dude with an unlimited motorbike licnece cannot legally use an 1000 Watt Ebike, no matter how hard he try to register it in any possible vehicle class.
wukongaddict@reddit
Dang I feel bad for y'all. Atlanta is a safe haven for Ebikes. Police absolutely don't give a shit about our bikes.
Now tbf, I do wish they banned kids from getting them because they do ride reckless but overall it's the wild west out here for us.
dark_roast@reddit
The lack of enforcement of illegal riders is what's leading to blanket bans, though. 99% of the problems are caused by emotos that are being operated in an illegal manner, and police could crack down if they wanted to. But because police are doing nothing, there's calls to do something. Policy makers either don't understand the real problem or want to discourage ebikes entirely, and class 1/2/3 bikes are getting regulated out of existence while nothing is done about children on 6000w dirtbikes. It's preposterous.
maximumpynk@reddit
Work is being done on federal legislation that will preserve the current class 1 2 3 ebike system. Those will hopefully stay. If a vehicle exceeds 20 mph on throttle alone, or is powered by a motor larger than 750 watts, it belongs in the moped or motorcycle category.
No_Home_708@reddit (OP)
This is the best outcome we can hope for.
Troglodytes_Cousin@reddit
Why are you blaming teenagers - and not the parents ?
No_Home_708@reddit (OP)
It's implied
PuzzledActuator1@reddit
Learn from what is happening here in Queensland Australia, they're trying to introduce some of the strictest ebike laws in the world in response to mostly teenagers being f-wits on emotos and the media throwing them in with low powered 250w pedal assist electric bikes. Even what would be essentially class 1 bikes here are likely to need at least a learner car license (unless they change the draft legislation) and most of our shared bike ways will end up being restricted to 10km/h (6.2miles/h) for ebikes but regular bikes can go as fast as they want.
heskey30@reddit
Its ridiculous that politicians who supposedly care about climate change and future generations throw it all out the window when a few kids do wheelies. Micromobility was the future. The idea that everyone needs an electric car to have serious transportation isn't that much more sustainable than just going full fossil fuel.
PuzzledActuator1@reddit
I think you're confusing the party in power here in QLD, the ones that cared about that got voted out. The current ones are all pro digging up oil.
CerberusOCR@reddit
QLD laws are absolutely cooked. I hope they don’t make their way to WA
PuzzledActuator1@reddit
They haven't passed yet and there's been a lot of solid push back to some of the changes through the committee looking at the bill so hopeful some of the worst parts may change, but I don't hold out hope.
Mexcol@reddit
So whats the end game?
What possible solutions do we have?
Stealth builds? Pushing for sensible legislation?
No_Home_708@reddit (OP)
See what happened to dirt bikes
Mexcol@reddit
Enlighten me plz
No_Home_708@reddit (OP)
You can't legally ride a dirt bike anywhere any more except on private property and the fee dedicated trails that exist.
Mexcol@reddit
Rip
EnergyPrestigious497@reddit
Chicken wings. Mass market made them worse and more expensive.
No_Home_708@reddit (OP)
Mass market didn't cause chicken wings to get banned if they have more than 500 SHUs
jolard@reddit
In my state (Queensland) in Australia they just released proposed new laws, that include 10kmh speed limits on cycling infrastructure that isn't completely separated from pedestrians. Most infrastructure in our area is shared use.
10kmh is just over 6mph. It is ludicrously slow and will just force all e-bikes off cycling infrastructure and onto roads.
The problem? Stupid bloody teenagers riding already illegal e-motos freaking out Boomers and Karens.
No_Home_708@reddit (OP)
Most laws end up only hurting the law abiding
saigatenozu@reddit
gatekeep everything.
No_Home_708@reddit (OP)
Wait until you see the fully developed consequences of not gatekeeping.
godzillabobber@reddit
I have to wonder how much influence the automotive industry has concerning regulation. An ebike is a very attractive form of transportation for someone that is paying off student loans and can barely afford rent. Cars cost hundreds of dollars a month to purchase and maintain, ebikes are under a dollar a day. The big auto companies already keep small cheap cars and trucks out of the country. They also shut down trolleys a century ago. Oil companies and insurers stand to lose big too.
thewimsey@reddit
They don't care.
And complaints about ebikes/emotos are almost always from people using them on MUPs. Not on the roads.
There's this stupid tendency on reddit for people to try and identify some monetary reason for something to happen, and then conclude that the monetary reason (that they may have just invented) is the one and only reason for that action. That's how toddlers think.
People aren't opposed to e-motos because they are being bought off by big auto.
People aren't concerned about e-bikes because they're being bought off by big oil.
The are concerned about e-bikes because some 14 year old passed them too closely at 35 mph while they were pushing their baby in a stroller or walking their dog.
I'm concerned about e-motos for the same reason.
There's not some conspiracy of moneyed interests out to screw the e-bike industry. Look around.
And when you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras.
SadisticPawz@reddit
The subreddit is already being astroturfed imo. No reason for them not to, only free money in it to force everyone back into cars and keep it that way.
Otaraka@reddit
They wouldn’t do anything to support it, but I’m finding it hard to believe they would be hugely involved.
It’s kind of built-in that there will be a lot of pushback. Car owners have been pushing on bikes pretty hard for decades. Combine it being youth focussed and pedestrians finding them annoying, there’s tons of opposition ready to go.
Bizzzle80@reddit
I don’t know who’s really enforcing these new laws tho. If you are a adult with a helmet on you shouldn’t have a problem with a “overpowered” bike
No_Home_708@reddit (OP)
In most states you would need a motorcycle license, plates, and insurance on an overpowered bike.
HyperTeacherLady@reddit
Every time I see teens blasting the wrong way on sidewalks, I cringe. They don’t care about safety, and now lawmakers are cracking down so hard that everyone has to ride with bureaucratic shackles. It’s classic tragedy of the commons.
thirtynation@reddit
Kk
-mudflaps-@reddit
I don't know why they allow the 20" fat bikes into the country in the first place, goes to show how much control over their imports.
TopRepulsive4766@reddit
So far, this mindset has not encroached on us. Of course we are the least-populated state in the US and will most definitely be the last state to adopt stricter ebike laws (if we ever do).
In my town, I really don't see much bad behaviour from the teens. I do see them doing stunts in empty parking areas and such, but so far their street riding has been acceptable. Also, we do have plenty of open areas, back roads, etc. where ebike riders are welcome.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
Companies like Bonnell that purposely make stealth e-motos disguised as eMTBs are part of the problem.
Authorities dont want to play the shell game so they just issue blanket bans.
And every person who posted comments like "mind your own business", "dont be a Karen", and "I'm not hurting anyone" is complicit in ushering in these crackdowns.
sanjuro_kurosawa@reddit
Sorry about this but this is what happens when too many irresponsible people do the cool stuff with a high amount of harm.
Take dirt bikes: in the 1960's riders could hit almost any open space area and tear it up. Annoy nearby home owners with 2 stroke buzzing? Roll past hikers at 50mph? What could they do about it?
Well what they did was not only ban motorcycles from open spaces, they took every enforcement action including at the manufacturing level to limit dirt bikes.
Some activities did regulate themselves to minimize the yahoos from using their products; they might have lost a few customers but kept the regulators away for a long while.
averagemagnifique@reddit
Just saw a video of a group of full grown adults riding our local hike and bike trail. Purposely trying ti see if anyone will stop them then bragging about how all the hate comments on their reels will buy them a new emoto. Reported that crap
Laserdollarz@reddit
Last week, a child (probably 13-14yo) on a ridstar blew a stop sign and nearly hit me (also on ebike). He was wearing a helmet, at least.
I don't care what wattage it is, if you're on the road, stop fucking around.
That said, if those kids could read, they'd be very upset.
SilentIyAwake@reddit
What do you mean? I love nearly getting taken out while I'm on a footpath by a group of dumb kids going 35mph weaving through people like we're pylons on an autocross course.
STIHL_Resolve5198@reddit
There be them things called horns, for those situations
Mexcol@reddit
How about they go for the sellers instead?
Or actually going for the dumb kids instead of all the users?
unseenmover@reddit
I see C 1/2/32 and full kits surviving since there the only ones that are made, ex/imported for international trade between countries but the fringe chinese shit thats flooding the market now nay. Weve already seen chinese companies being sued for faulty stuff already and with the current surge in legal issues I dont see their share of the market continuing..
somesing@reddit
Yep. There are many people who can’t or don’t want to understand the nuances of this hobby, and eventually we will all suffer because of it. Where I am, it’s pretty much entirely due to dumbass children on e-motos, and their dumbass parents.
exteriorcrocodileal@reddit
What area do you live in? I haven’t heard much about municipal level blanket bans