Is the car community expanding to its own death?
Posted by 1denito@reddit | askcarguys | View on Reddit | 65 comments
For all intents and purposes we should be in a golden age of the car community as a whole. Pre chip shortage, fast cars were more accessible and available than ever with almost no barrier to entry except your wallet. Companies are offering crazy amounts of power straight off the lot. More people, especially kids, are interested in fast vehicles and paying attention to fast vehicles and racing more than ever.
Yet for whatever reason, on average car guys seem to only care about specific models more than anything else or whatever the newest model is. So many of them obsess over hp numbers and 0-60 times in cars they’ve never driven in. So many guys pull up to car meets, pop their hood, stand in place, and peel out after 30 minutes. Talking to no one and not looking at anyone else’s car. A lot of cars meets just feel like beauty pageants and cock waving contests instead of a gathering of enthusiasts.
I love cars so I’ll always be in the space by default, but I’m just confused on where a lot of the love went when it came to these cars. Some of these guys talk about the cars they like and it sounds so robotic. No real passion, just numbers they can throw out to say this car is faster than this other car. Guys talk about how they like to race and it’s usually arbitrary specific rules that only they follow and if you don’t follow them too, you’re not a “real racer”. A guy loses a race and all the excuses come out, and doesn’t want to pay. It’s legit to a point where genuine enthusiasts are better off sticking to themselves most of the time to avoid the drama.
What happened? And where do you think it’s going? I have faith enthusiasts will come back into the light but it’s just rough having to sift through so many “car guys” to find them.
Cool-Bunch6645@reddit
Go through the pits at a grassroots drift day. You can’t get us to shut the fuck up about our cars if you walk through and start asking a few questions about the car.
1denito@reddit (OP)
Bet! I’ll check out the next event around me. It seems like drift guys and drag guys tend to be the most inviting.
TheStig827@reddit
Don't forget Autox.
We tend to be a chatty bunch, as a virtrue of standing in a parking lot for hours on end in exchange for some drive time.
Bonus: the big ego ass hole types don't usually survive very long as they get quantifiably outrun in their Porsche regularly by miatas, civics, and corvettes.
jonnyt88@reddit
Luckily RallyX has lower interest rates and we get significantly more runs in. Last RallyX the guy that hosted the event (and a regular runner) broke his CV. He had a replacement CV from a different year car which didn't fit. on lunch break 3x of the racers were there, migrating the bearings and carving splines to make a frankenCV. It let him finish and the car ran a bunch of "fun laps". Talk about comradery.
I can swap parts, including an Axle, but this was fly by the side shit that was intriguing to watch.
TheStig827@reddit
Love it.
One of my favorite moments at Solo Nationals a few (ok more than a few) years back had an STS civic suffer a rear wheel bearing failure.
It got limped off course on a wheel dolly.. and when they pulled it back into it's grid spot, a competitor was already waiting holding an assembled control arm/rotor/brake assembly combo and his impact gun, while others were standing by with the jack, jackstands, etc..
An absolute flury of competitors converged with tools and parts.
If you've never been to nats, there's a mandator 5min cool down between runs you can take, and a 6 min mechanical you can call when it is your turn to run. If you miss that, you forefit that run. Knowing this the impound worker started his stopwatches.
That car went from arriving in grid sans wheel, to rolling out of it's grid spot in 12 minutes, and finished it's final run. Wasn't it's fastest, as the alignment had to be a bit eyeballed.. but it was amazing to watch a massive group of competitors come together to make it happen, completely unprompted.
Iamthe0c3an2@reddit
This, track time humbles these social media addicted idiots. I’d say the honda fit/jazz opinion test and track time really seperate the true ones.
LankyJeep@reddit
It’s the same as the competition shooting space, showboats who can’t hold up or get along get ostracized pretty quickly, especially if they aren’t good
TheStig827@reddit
i can only imagine what kind of ornate, taciclol shit these types show up with, talk about how their scope as 3 kinds of night vision and records video at 4k, only land 1/5 shots on target and quietly retreats to their car hoping no one noticed.
LankyJeep@reddit
Lotta guys like that, lots of cops too that do that. I’ve shot with some serious spec op guys and all of them were super humble and good people, but god the “I woulda served but” guys and a lot of cops can be insufferable
Cool-Bunch6645@reddit
There’s a lot of blood sweat and tears going into the cars for keeping them running so there is a lot of pride in the build whether it’s simple or over the top. Another beauty of it all is the variety these days. JDM, US, EUR - anyone’s taste always represented and there isn’t weird brand identity battles because everyone just wants to shred together and see new drivers learn and progress
Available-Party7419@reddit
I believe that Tesla single handedly ruined 0-60 times. The cheapest model S is around 3 seconds for 30k used . The Veyron is around 2.5 seconds and costs 1 million dollars. I don't think anyone cares about 0-60 times anymore and if they do they're probably young or fairly new to being into cars.
DickWhittingtonsCat@reddit
I’d argue the minivan ruined 0-60 times, as 6 seconds and an 85-90mph quarter mile is plenty to get anyone killed in 3 blocks and blows past the fastest reasonable speed on a public road in short order.
Teslas have this reductionist reputation for speed but you never see them hanging and banging at 120mph on the interstate- or even keeping up with the 80-90mph left wing flow.
The 0-60 is a party trick, the guy in the Odyssey (who gives a fuck about Veyron) is just a few seconds behind and if less risk averse will be back in front within another 10 seconds.
Of course someone “racing” on the street is the last person I want to be near.
As far as track days and that stuff, the driver is running out of skill before the car runs out of performance at anything over 200hp- let’s be honest here. Flooring a car has as much to do with racing as throwing a can into the trash while yelling air jordan has to do with the NBA
Available-Party7419@reddit
The main point about Tesla ruining it is more about that with electric power, 0-60 times can literally be anything. Plus the fact that it's just a few 10 thousand dollars and is faster/competes with cars in the $100,000's range made it pointless. Even the Odyssey is more expensive than a Tesla.
Also, where I live in Southern California I don't think I've ever seen a Tesla driver come to a complete stop at a stop sign and not use that 3 sec 0-60 time to get going again. I swear they floor it everywhere they go, even through parking lots. Easily the worst drivers around operating a space ship.
HeavyDutyForks@reddit
The bigger issue is that the younger generation is nowhere near as interested in cars as those that came before them. Kids are putting off getting their licenses, don't like driving, and don't care to wrench on their own cars. They see them as A to B appliances
You're really seeing it in the low power vehicle communities. Like, antique vehicles, old 50s classics, or old military vehicles. Everyone's been priced out of the 60s muscle market (thanks Boomers) too
Serious_Honey_8131@reddit
Don't worry, old muscle car prices will inevitably come down as we boomers age out. I've got a Duster 340 I need gone. Not that I am too old to drive it, I just don't enjoy it anymore. Bought something else fun last year 31 years newer.
PowerSpool@reddit
How the hell does this circle back to those damn kids like nobody else has ever thought like that? The vast majority of Americans old and young are not into cars at all.
Hell car companies eliminated most of their cool enthusiasts cars and then started making appliances why would you do anything besides go from point A to B in a shitty SUV?
HeavyDutyForks@reddit
Damn buddy, don't take it personally man
Those cool enthusiast cars are still around on the used market. I never dailyed a shitty boring car until I got to the point where I could afford more than one at a time. They may have been unreliable (and looking back kinda dumb), but it was fun
Neat-Relationship345@reddit
I’m 67. I get what you’re talking about. I asked a guy with a 26 GT Mustang what size the motor was and he said he didn’t know mechanical stuff. But, in general, there are a lot less people interested in fast cars. Very few running their cars at a dragstrip as many of them have closed. If they tried to race at the track it would be very humbling. Just because it has an advertised amount of power doesn’t mean you won’t get waxed by a 30 YO car worth 15k that’s set up to be tracked.
ahandmadegrin@reddit
I bet some of the decline has to do with the increased reliance on computers. Cars up until the 70s or 80s could be wrenched on by most shade tree mechanics. Once computerized components started proliferating, you had to have special tools that weren't as accessible as a set of wrenches.
These days, where everything is drive by wire and a touch screen, it's no wonder a kid has no idea how big his engine is. He doesn't know what APU his phone is running, either, but he doesn't need to and it's not like he could take it out and replace it.
I like the modern amenities like lane assist and backup cameras and all that, but I still like being able to work on my car. I have a 2006 Nissan Titan and I wouldn't be surprised if my next vehicle was older. Sure, it won't have some of the bells and whistles, but that simplicity means it'll be easier to fix, too.
MaxNerd115@reddit
You gotta go to Vintage/Classic car meets to get the true enthusiastic culture you're looking for.
DukeRains@reddit
"I’m just confused on where a lot of the love went when it came to these cars."
Which cars are you talking about here?
1denito@reddit (OP)
I’m biased because I’m American but take American muscle for example. American muscle has produced some very impressive (yet expensive) vehicles over the last 10 years but it’s hilarious to see how many new owners know almost nothing about their car besides how many liters the engine has. Mustangs, Camaros, and scatpacks get a lot of hate but they all have come with great innovations and performance updates through the years, but most wouldn’t know about the true performance of the car because it’s mostly silly memes instead of debating performance from actual owners.
DukeRains@reddit
Ah ok. Was just curious! I daily a 22 GT. Not a car scene guy really, I guess, but it's my 4th pony. I'm hooked for life.
JCDU@reddit
Like any hobby, cars attract gear heads and nerds who just want to quote stats like they're pokemon cards and one-up other people. It's dumb and pointless and the best thing to do is just leave those folks to their dick measuring. A lot of that sort of chat is from young lads who either don't own a car or own some miserable shitbox but are going to argue about tedious details online based on their vast experience of Gran Turismo.
They'll come to a car show in their mum's car then stand next to something awesome and try to show off by explaining why it's not as good as something else that they'll also never own.
Arguing about HP alone is a typical internet pastime for guys like that, beyond a certain level HP is meaningless unless you're doing one very specific thing like drag racing. Race teams spend more time on handling and braking than squeezing every last HP out because they use actual science to go as fast as possible round a track.
Your description of racing sounds an awful lot like street racing which is also dumb and proves very little.
A lot of stuff like that just comes down to chequebooks too - whoever can throw the most money at it goes fastest, big whoop, who gives a rat's ass? I've seen competition series come along & die out as
A Citroen 2CV has no power but is a very cool and great fun car. The original Mini is a giant-killing legend that's renowned for fantastic handling. DeLoreans are not good cars but everyone loves them anyway.
I drive an old Land Rover that's beat to shit, our club has done a few "classic" car shows over the years and what's hilarious is that people absolutely LOVE us - they will stroll past a line of gleaming Ferraris or Porsches without a second glance and come up to us with a big smile to talk about our stuff because it's clearly used for something, it's done stuff, it's accessible and fun.
One of our members has an army one dripping with guns & gear and he lets kids climb all over it while the other stands are telling people not to touch their shiny paintwork and it's the BEST DAY EVERRR for those kids, they can't believe they're allowed near the thing let alone getting to point a 50cal at the ice cream van.
Our vehicles are some of the least valuable there, they're certainly some of the slowest and least powerful, yet we get way more positive comments, photos taken, etc. than vapey mc doucheface who turns up to pose in a 100k supercar.
VarmintTheCritter@reddit
I need to get to Radwood one day. Seeing someone who loves their 80s econobox for its weird quirks is a great form of car culture.
Gubbtratt1@reddit
I've been to offroading events and classic car drives. I don't think meets for modern "enthusiast" cars even exist where I live. Both the offroading events and classic car drives are incredibly friendly and social.
Ejmct@reddit
I guess we need a new Fast & Furious movie.
JP147@reddit
They have already driven a car in space, I hope in the next one they use a car to travel through time.
Cool-Bunch6645@reddit
Could be…a Delorean?!
Cool-Bunch6645@reddit
There’s one thing Edwin knows is, it’s not how you stand by your car…It’s how you race it.
doduhstankyleg@reddit
I seen the way you drive! You got a heavy foot! You’ll blow yourself to pieces…
ajm91730@reddit
Uh, your experience does not reflect mine.
1denito@reddit (OP)
Facts
Turbulent-Dentist-77@reddit
New cars aren't interesting anymore because a) they're stupid electric junk or full of spytech and basically have little of the old mechanical roaring engine fun left, and b) old cars are old.
The few people still caring about those old, interesting cars will continue to dwindle as they become older, less well kept and less practical to use.
The car has become a boring appliance like a washing machine.
And the final nail of the picture is that those rare new cars that are still interesting? Yeah they're not for you. They're for Leno. They're all 300k.
mikeh0677@reddit
Old guy here (69). The “cars are becoming mere appliances” trope has been around at least since the first gas crisis in 1973, which killed (for long time) muscle cars, and opened the door to economical Japanese econoboxes.
From my perspective, most people only want their car to serve as a transportation appliance, and the industry exists primarily to serve them. There have always been a subset of cars that are more interesting. They are for us.
They are out there
Turbulent-Dentist-77@reddit
Fair point!
mikeh0677@reddit
Hey, I am also a dentist!
Turbulent-Dentist-77@reddit
Hello, are you turbulent?
StarsandMaple@reddit
Ignore social media and the internet find the dude that has the most off the wall build... And you'll find the enthusiast with true passion.
AutoX, Drift events, road course, and even the drag strip has tons of hardcore enthusiasts.
GetawayDriving@reddit
Come over to Lotus. We’re not flashy or pretentious, we just want to drive.
SwarlezBarkley@reddit
I think human civilization is expanding to our own death.
thisisthatacct@reddit
"car meets" are your problem there.
Go to track days, grassroots race days, autocross, drift events, test & tunes, rallycross, ARA stage rallies. There you're going to find guys that drive their cars, pour their blood sweat and tears into their cars, not just open up their wallets for a "tune" from some jerkoff and a wrap from another doucher.
There's car culture out there, gotta expand your horizons to find it
1denito@reddit (OP)
Great points! I’ll do some research. I’m relatively new in the car scene so I’m still figuring out what different spaces exist in the whole ecosystem.
thisisthatacct@reddit
It can get pretty tedious especially if your region is huge, but if you just go to an autocross without a car you'll almost definitely find someone willing to give you a ride during a run in whatever cool car they have, and you can probably find someone that will let you drive their car next time for their entry fee and gas
Ok-Ad8998@reddit
I'd say the car community is expanding in some healthy ways with a lot more multi-discipline events, like Gridlife.
The street environment is not good though. I'm seeing parallels to 60 years ago when when drag racers were chased off the street and built drag strips or a decade or so earlier when the sports car guys used air bases and built tracks so they could move off the street. As it is now, there is a lot of public friction (and police scrutiny) against street enthusiast activities. Just like it was in those previous eras. It isn't a healthy situation.
Just thinking out loud here: A lot of suburban malls are being torn down. How about fencing in one of the empty lots to create a car fun park?
YogurtclosetDull2380@reddit
Personally I despise the egos that come with the cars. You have guys talking shit about other guys' cars, all pissed off cause this guy said he could beat him... C'mon you're an adult
Then you got Kids who wouldn't have shit without their parents' money. People you know doing dangerous, illegal shit on the same roads you travel on with your family, all for some social media clout.
Sure there great people in the scene but you can't escape from being grouped in with the bad apples.
FarewellAndroid@reddit
I like concours style car meets. Just a bunch of dweebs obsessing over platings on fasteners.
Gunk_Olgidar@reddit
Generalize much?
1denito@reddit (OP)
I’m generalizing because let’s be real and say that the scene should be more alive and fun than it’s ever been but yet like you said, you have to avoid most events to have a good time or find very specific niche groups within the community. To me that is heart breaking when it should be the opposite.
jrileyy229@reddit
So stop going to car shows... Go to track days... That's where the real enthusiasts are.
1denito@reddit (OP)
Fair enough. I just assumed the different sides of the community blended together better than what the reality is.
jrileyy229@reddit
I'd say largely, not much blending. Everyone that I race with personally... Have the same mindset... That car shows are stupid.
Doesn't mean I won't ever pop into cars and coffee and do a quick lap on a Saturday morning when it's convenient... But I'm sure as heck not putting a car in the show and sitting next to it for 4 hours.
But, that's okay... Those people clearly enjoy doing it and everyone is entitled to their own hobbies and collections. But the track day enthusiasts are literally there to beat the shit out of their car and have fun doing it. That's a very different type of person than someone who only drives their car to car shows and only if it's not raining
Gunk_Olgidar@reddit
Not my experience, but folks near me are pretty chill in all car communities. Even the Ferrari club folks are not snobby. None of the clubs and groups around here fit your description of "undesirables."
Might be more of a maturity thing as none of the shows I've attended have personalities that need to validate themselves by comparing how fast their car goes by any measure. They all know there's a faster car out there. Always has been.
Tough-Marsupial-6254@reddit
I'd say the opposite...Cars and Coffee around here are just a complete group of random cars from 3 to 6 figures. Car shows are filled with boomer boards, 1 of 1 Corvettes, and little stuffed children leaning up against front bumpers
Nippon-Gakki@reddit
Agreed. I’ll check out a random C&C occasionally but classic car shows are typically the same boring stuff. It would be more fun if there were more mom and pop cars just to see something original.
basscycles@reddit
Cars cause problems. Those problems haven't got much better over time. Parking, costs to own, cost to purchase, cost to society for providing infrastructure, pollution, carbon emissions and the state becoming more intrusive as to what chemicals are in your system. Alternatives to cars are becoming more popular. IE where I am the rate of uptake for people acquiring their drivers licence is reducing.
TheStig827@reddit
Car Shows/Cars n Coffee are like an ego feedback loop for attention seekers, and imho bring out he worst people in car culture: The types for whom cars are purely a mechanism for attention. The types with burble/crackle tunes and Instagram handles.
To be clear, not everyone is this way.. but you just don't find these people at competitive events.
This has doubled down as you've got these types seeing a large social following as a part of "hustle culture", trying to get likes to get the attention of sponsors etc..
People who are out at autox, track, autox, drag events.. and stick to it? they're out there for the love of the sport. No one's under the assumption they're going to be a big dog race car driver, etc.. fun rivalries and friendships bloom, and big egos often don't hold up because if you're slow.. well.. everyone knows it.
Rough_Cancel7265@reddit
Cars largely are a level playing field now from a performance perspective. Electric aside, it's not difficult at all to swipe a card and essentially bolt something on to go really fast on a lot of platforms. There's really nothing special anymore so clout prevails.
revocer@reddit
IMHO, it became more of a “look at me” rather than “let’s look at these together.”
jnyc777@reddit
It wasn’t so much about more power than modifying cars, today’s cars are too integrated with computers you can’t mod much. Sure some ppl would shoot for 500hp which was alot and is now mid, what got called rice was just to look fast. I also feel like the younger generation isn’t into the mechanics of cars as much as the last and previous generations either Add the fact that more than not putting cash into a car makes it hard to sell, doesn’t help. Don’t get me wrong ppl are still modifying, just doesn’t seem to be as many ppl
OlYeller01@reddit
Man, I kinda get what you’re saying. I showed a car for the first time in 10 years a couple of weeks ago.
I remember everyone being a lot more friendly at past shows. This time it seemed like everyone kept to themselves.
That said, what made it worth it was finding out a friend’s son saw my car, checked it out, dug it, and took a bunch of pics. I was unfortunately away from the car, because I would have loved to let him get a closer look.
Also, I let my 15 year old nephew (with a learner’s permit and me with him) drive my car after the show. First manual transmission car he’s driven and he did surprisingly good. He was all smiles after and sent a bunch of pics to his buddies.
That’s what it’s really all about.
Most-Description4665@reddit
The internet and social media sort of ruined social activities. No one wants to open their mouth or ears. The internet is a safe place where you can google shit in thr middle of a dispute. Its a place where your competency can be feigned and your ego remained un shattered. So people naturally gravitate away because they can just browse insta or talk shit on reddit.
PolybiusChampion@reddit
You may be going to the wrong types of meets…..from this past Saturday. There were also two older rabbit convertibles and a fantastic 1950s Beetle there. But there is part of the community that’s pretty much what you describe, however I get to plenty of meets where there’s a ton of variety in both people and cars.
https://imgur.com/a/ve0PYzR
HighInChurch@reddit
No, it’s not.
OutlawMINI@reddit
There are still some serious driving groups out there.
The real enthusiasts stay hidden because we don't want to attract police attention like the slideshow bozos.