Why does it seem impossible for the Greek economy to improve their debt situation ?
Posted by Far_Country_1629@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 330 comments
15 years only to be back at the same levels of 2010.
seanugengar@reddit
Say it with me: "COOOOO-RUUUPTIOOONN! "
Additionally the decrease in debt over the last few years is plasmatic. It does not corespond to growth. Ottos primarily achieved by reducing state expenditure. Primarily by cutting education, healthcare and social policies budgets. Infrastructure is aging and failing at an exponential rate at this point, and investment in public infrastructure and right of use of said infrastructure, is been granted to the private sector, experiencing massive delays, riddled by financial scandals and corruption.
At the same time, salaries are as low as second to last within EU, while Greece has some of the most expensive fuel, is among the most expensive in regards to cost of living and rents are closer to central European rates. I believe placing Greece among the top 5 countries with the highest %salary/rent rates.
Snoo-4916@reddit
What the fuck are you talking about?
We have had consecutive years of real GDP growth (yes, that means even after accounting for inflation).
Budget for education, health and infrastructure investments has also increased steadily the past 7 years.
Where do you get your data? You better have a source with the relevant numbers.
PS: : "plasmatic" doesn't mean the same thing in English as in Greek.
Historical-Tackle830@reddit
Αδερφέ τι στον διάολο καπνίζεις?
Snoo-4916@reddit
Να πεις τίποτα έχεις; Περιμένω αριθμούς.
Prior-Flamingo-1378@reddit
GDP 2018: 178 billion
GDP 2025: 240 billion
FlamesOfDespair@reddit
The country produces nothing.
IntelligentPlate5051@reddit
I get it but it's a situation where the "bill comes due". The difficulties is it makes life much more expensive for the population (increased taxes, stagnant wages, etc) which may force them to leave the country.
But on the other hand the massive debt is what made Greece rise compared to it's neighbors.
Surfer_Rick@reddit
That's 5 years of consistent debt decreases. 56% in total.
I understand numbers can be hard, but come on man.
Rich_Plant2501@reddit
Debt reduction was 27%. 56% would mean that there is less than half of the original debt.
IndependentSpot5936@reddit
Real life well actually nerd, lmao. Koliko glup covjek mora biti da ne shvati iz konteksta sta je lik htio reci i da apsolutno nema potrebe za ispravkom ikakvom...
Rich_Plant2501@reddit
Vidiš da ima potrebe da ispravljam, da nisam ispravio ti ne bi imao priliku da naučiš sad nešto.
Relativne promene se iskazuju u odnosu na ono što se menja. To je kontekst.
Šta je ovo
FirstIdChoiceWasPaul@reddit
He did clearly state that "numbers can be hard". Doh, pay attention!
waudi@reddit
He just means in absolute terms in relations to GDP. He obviously didn't mean 56% of total debt.
Rich_Plant2501@reddit
If it was a drop from 200% to 100% and saying it was a 100% decrease, it would be clear it was misleading.
waudi@reddit
I jedno i drugo je tačno, možeš da kažeš da je dug pao 50% ukupno, ili 100% (ceo jedan) GDP ako ga gledaš tako. On samo govori u odnosu prema GDP-u, a ne u odnosu prema samom dugu. Zato sto je uopšte reč o odnosu duga prema GDP-u. Bezveze ga kritikuješ a nije pogrešio, nisi ni ti ali to nije poenta.
DetachedLens@reddit
Glup si kao kurac.
AskBalkans-ModTeam@reddit
Your post/comment was removed for violating Rule 1 of r/AskBalkans "Keep it civil". Depending on the severity of this violation, you may be banned.
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Rich_Plant2501@reddit
Pogrešio je. Rekao je da se dug smanjio za 56%. Nije rekao 56% BDP-a, rekao je total. Kad ne navedeš šta se menja, onda se podrazumeva to što se promenilo da se uzima kao osnova.
waudi@reddit
Rekao je total da - ukupno, I očigledno je da je mislio naspram bdp-a. Nije nuzno da se podrazumeva bilo šta kada je veoma jasno na šta je mislio. Koristimo kolokvijalni govor jer je mnogo lakše stalno precizirati nepotrebno detaljno. Cepidlacis bez razloga, nemoj biti taj lik koji stalno nešto ispravlja druge samo da bi ispao pametan, to zamara do jaja. Ako si pametan pokaži na lepse načine, ljudi će svakako to skontao. Jel ti je bilo jasno šta je rekao? Očigledno jeste, samo teraš dalje.
Rich_Plant2501@reddit
Ne cepidlačim ja, ti si se malo opteretio da odbraniš Trumpspeak. Kad se nešto menja ako se izražava u procentima uvek ide u odnosu na veličinu koja se menja PRE PROMENE. To je kolokvijalni govor.
Moja plata je 1000 evra. Podigao sam kredit 10000 evra. Vratio sam 100% total, znači sad dugujem 9000 evra.
odikrause@reddit
It's simple Trump math.
Fearless-Lie-9363@reddit
I'm hard. What now?
FirstIdChoiceWasPaul@reddit
Show it to some girl and make her laugh.
UnblurredLines@reddit
But you’re not numbers…
Mr-DevilsAdvocate@reddit
You only need the 1
aguilasolige@reddit
Right lol at this guy. How many other countries out there have reduced their debt 56% in the last 5 years?
Far_Country_1629@reddit (OP)
They did that at the expense of cutting services for the Greek, and you are celebrating it ? wow. Stockholm might be in Sweden, but it sounds like you are living there.
Angelus_25@reddit
Cutting services is good when you can't afford them.
If you are completely broke, don't go out to dinner.
Greece is doing well if you consider it looked like it would go bankrupt ( with full financial collapse.) Government rained in spending, which citizens receive, so that hurts, but citizens also have to pay for those services via taxes.
Greece has a growing economy, regained investors trust that they could repay the debt and are now doing just that. not by lowering debt much but by growing the economy without much exta spending thus lowering debt to gdp.
Greece is growing & inflating out of its debt. it will take time but it's heading in the right direction fast.
Far_Country_1629@reddit (OP)
If you do not go out for dinner, you do not end up having a train crash because a lack of automatic safety and signaling systems on the track, which should have prevented the death of 57 people.
Affectionate-Arm-405@reddit
Relax. Nobody is celebrating the hardships. But it's good to know your countries is not as much indebted to outside powers as it once was. Both things can be true
Far_Country_1629@reddit (OP)
Is it good if it is at the expense of cutting funding of things Greeks need ? like a train service that doesn't crash because said funding was cut ?
Angelus_25@reddit
yes. it's good. it's even great if you realise that the alternative was bankruptcy and financial collapse. with added bonus of losing access to capital markets thus fucking the economy up for many decades.
_Arkus_@reddit
You know what would end up being worse for the Greek people? Continuing to accumulate debt
Milrich@reddit
If you wanted to avoid hardships, you shouldn't have gone in debt in the first place.
Life's tough for the Greek people and for all the people, especially if you let your debt spiral.
Affectionate-Arm-405@reddit
It's like the expense can be noted but it shouldn't take away from the benefit.
It's like me saying WW2 was awful. Also after the war there was huge economic for the people of some countries.
We agree the war was not good. But Doesn't take away the fact that the economy growing rapidly is a positive
handsomeslug@reddit
How do you get 56% decrease with a 206 -> 150 change lmao.
JahJahJahJa@reddit
Thing is, that all this started on 2010, not 2020. You see 5 year reductions, I see that we have higher debt than 2010 when crisis begun and our European saviors literally fucked our economy.
Ok-Leading6971@reddit
Well, debt decrease on an inflationary GDP isn't really good news here. Greece has high inflation, an EU-resilience funding round going on until 08.26 pumping that already inflated GDP. Besides, debt repayments coming off of high taxation on individuals and businesses, mind you, on a GDP per capita that is constantly shrinking.
InfallibleSeaweed@reddit
How can one euro country have a significantly higher inflation than the rest? Their's is 0.8 percent points above the average
Ok-Leading6971@reddit
easy: have a national cartel in energy and food retail and drive prices up. Have public project developments mispriced consistently upwards. Have tourism and airbnb prices on the rise. And many more levers
NoSync22@reddit
That sounds like a perfect description of Croatia, but the debt curve is very different.
alkorisno@reddit
Still not at the level of 2010, let along before the EU
Surfer_Rick@reddit
Gee, did something happen in the 2008-2015 time period? I wonder what it could be
Avengernk@reddit
it is mainly due to very high inflation and artificial GDP increase (building housing for tourists). Economy is steadily getting worse every year.
Excellent-Buy-5660@reddit
Half of that reduction is due to inflation,just a note .
NecessaryDisaster498@reddit
That is by percentage of GDP. It didnt decrease by 56% in total. It decreased by the percentage of GDP. Meaning: a 0% decrease in debt, while GDP increases still leads to a decrease in debt to GDP %.
Prod_Meteor@reddit
At what cost? Paying with your life or all your money with no return?
dobik@reddit
Percentage points decrease. It is what it is called
Far_Country_1629@reddit (OP)
And its 15 years to only be at the same place it was 15 years ago, so im not sure whats hard to understand.
Tinenan@reddit
I mean there was a whole global pandemic in between
anastis@reddit
And the financial crisis
Trick_Raspberry2507@reddit
Iirc the financial crisis is why greece is in this mess to begin with. It was a mess to begin with, but with Greece, it just seemed to get worse.
BlueGorilla25@reddit
In this time frame, there was the so-called Greek debt crisis. The country signed three separate multi-billion euro financial assistance programmes with the IMF, ECB and the European commission in order not to go bankrupt. Tight austerity measures were enforced.
As I wrote somewhere else in the post, in 2010 debt was increasing rapidly. Now it is under control and decreasing steadily. Having your debt finally under control is a win.
Shaolinpower2@reddit
Austerity shrank their economy. That jumped their debt percantage up to the roof
Hertje73@reddit
Looks like they are improving fantastically since 2020!!
Historical-Tackle830@reddit
If you only knew what hell is to live at this rotten country...but there is no serious reporting about the mess we are in because all media here are owned by their dogs. Or their bosses. Search for the channel greekonomics, it has a more scientific approach and is not biased... So cringe that the others thinking we are doing great...
Far_Country_1629@reddit (OP)
So if i owe 50.000 euros to you in 2010, and then my debt to you is 150.000 in 2023, and then im back at 50.000 euros in 2025, is that improvement or is it that im just back and owing you the same again ? ok if thats improvement to you then we disagree thats fine, brother.
Upstairs_Musician_51@reddit
Agreed, it's usury and it's disgusting.
SilverPhilosopher46@reddit
You can keep spamming the same reply, but when everyone is saying the same thing, you should understand that you are the one who is wrong.
Far_Country_1629@reddit (OP)
I'm not spamming, i thought it was a common sense reply, and it made no sense to re write it, so i just shared it with others.. Just because a lot of people are saying the same thing, doesn't mean they are right, this is reddit after all.
That being said, im not debating it was just a question. I'm just choosing the reply it made the most sense to me.
Thrilalia@reddit
With inflation, it is still an improvement. 50.000 15 years ago is close to 80.000 today
Familiar_Anywhere815@reddit
Posting this with a picture showing 5 consecutive years of decreases is certainly a choice.
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
And it's projected to fall to 137% this year, 110% in 5 years. Some people can't read numbers.
Far_Country_1629@reddit (OP)
Someone said: "the decrease in debt over the last few years is plasmatic. It does not correspond to growth. It is primarily achieved by reducing state expenditure. Primarily by cutting education, healthcare and social policies budgets. Infrastructure is aging and failing at an exponential rate at this point, and investment in public infrastructure and right of use of said infrastructure, is been granted to the private sector, experiencing massive delays, riddled by financial scandals and corruption."
Historical-Tackle830@reddit
As a Greek citizen who is not biased in favour of the government like our friend Diomedes, I can tell that is plasmatic. Here our minimum wage is 700 euro while the cheapest house ( Athens ) is for 330/350 euro and its a mess ( thanks to golden visa bubble ). Our healthcare system is one stage before total destruction, our education system is rotten as hell and police is everywhere. This government has numerous scandals in their hands like the deadly tempi incident which is a result of money stealing from politicians of the govern political party and the opekepe scandal in which new dimokratia tried to take votes from fake farmers around the country by giving them illegally European fund that should go to the real farmers. But yeah come to Greece in the summer to fucks us more in the islands. If you notice there are no more greek tourists in our islands...guess why. And a message for our Nea Dimokratia bots at this thread: Είναι κρίμα να σε φτύνουν και εσύ να γλείφεις...μουνοπανο.
Diogenes-wannabe@reddit
Perhaps you could search for less biased sources? " Infrastructure is aging and failing at an exponential rate" is straight up a lie and talking about budget cuts without showcasing any numbers is idiotic.
SoSp@reddit
Is it a lie though?
Diogenes-wannabe@reddit
Yes.
SoSp@reddit
So, infrastructure in Greece is booming?
Wanna tell me a little bit about the situation of public transport and hospitals?
Temporary-Check-1507@reddit
I dont know aboout Athens but thessaloniki has opened its metro in the last 5 years. There is also a big new construction on the ring road and every major highway has been brought up in the EU standards (now only the orads where you enter a city and in the cities suck
Prior-Flamingo-1378@reddit
Is there nothing between failing and booming? Zero options?
SoSp@reddit
In any other case I'd be inclined to agree. But right now we're dealing with one of the most corrupt and unpunished governments we've had for the last two decades.
There's literal blood on their hands. So yeah, lowering the debt. Great. But one lever doesn't lift the weight of injustice and clientalism this country is facing.
Prior-Flamingo-1378@reddit
Greece has had 14 different government and 9 different prime ministers the last twenty years. Clearly this is the most corrupt because it’s the only one that stuck for more than the time it takes to drive the kiffisos avenue (that would be 2 and half years at rush hour).
The tsipras government (aka pasok 2.0) didn’t have enough time or skill to be as corrupt and before that it was chaos. But I remember people saying the exact same things about the pasok government in the nineties and early 2ks.
There have been quite a few accidents like the tempi one in Greece. For example the Samina sinking that had 80 fatalities (pasok), tempi again in 2003 with 21 kids dead (pasok).
The 1999 earthquake, the Mati fires. It’s all the same, the Greek government changes but the “deep state” (and I’m not saying that conspiratorially I mean the career public servants) doesn’t.
foxgirlmoon@reddit
Mate the public hospitals are literally failing. Doctors are quitting due to the horrible conditions and pay. Public health is a joke. The public university I’m going to, half or more of the seats in the big amphitheater are just straight up broken and have been for the last 6 years+ years and are just getting worse and worse.
Prior-Flamingo-1378@reddit
The state of Greek hospitals has been like this since forever. I’ve been hearing that trope of the Greek hospitals failing horribly with gurneys in the alleys, doctors being underpaid and/or requiring bribes, hospitals being understaffed and underfunded since 1990 but that’s because before that I was too pay attention.
Having been both as a patient and having spend a couple months in the ER of a Greek hospital I can tell you that while their look isn’t the best the doctors are reasonably experienced and they do save a lot of people.
During my stay at the ER I saw doctors doing CPR for an hour an a half to a young dude that crashed his bike.
When I was diagnosed with a fairly severe health problem that requires an 8 hour surgery to be resolved it was much easier for me to find the appropriate doctors at a public hospital that at a private one. I have a friend that had one of the most complicated operations one can have by public hospital doctors and their stuff for free because he had no insurance due to years of him being unable to work due to his health issues.
Where the Greek hospitals are pretty bad is health issues that are not emergencies. Then you are kind of fucked.
Oh and if you think your seats are a problem when I was a student back in early 2k my department had NO BUILDING (some will know what I mean).
Actually Greek unis are shit compared to the top European ones (clearly) but fairly decent compared to anything else (like all those Italian med schools). They ain’t good by any means but they are not atrocious either. I do agree more money had to be invested in education but I don’t see that happening Greece is a dying country (literally) so the lack of young people will make things worse.
Far_Country_1629@reddit (OP)
Was the 2023 Tempi train crash caused by the abundance of new infrastructure ? are the trains so new people cant understand the tech, and thats why the crash them? or the system suffered from years of under investment and neglect, leading to poor maintenance of tracks and safety systems ?
Prior-Flamingo-1378@reddit
The Greek Athina Thessaloniki railway system started being built in the late nineties and was completed 20 years and 10 different governments later.
The tempi accident was a human error compounded by a series of misshaps that wasn’t mitigated by any short of automated rail control system.
In 2014 the decree 717 was signed that would implement the ETCS an automated train safety system. It was delayed because the pre existing wiring had been so badly looted that the whole infrastructure had to be rebuilt from scratch.
The budget for that had to be revoted in 2016 (717/1) but the government then had other issues and didn’t pay attention.
It was finally voted in 2021 and was completed in several stages. The Larissa part (which was destroyed in a fire in 2019) got delivered a few months after the tempi accident.
Today the Greek railway system is fairly automated. Unfortunately it had to be rushed along by an accident.
Far_Country_1629@reddit (OP)
If you dont like it, then provide sources yourself and show us some numbers, you can take this opportunity to teach us about what the truth is.
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
"I'll make an absurd claim on reddit, then when people call me out I'll ask them to provide proof that my idiotic claim, for which I provided no proof whatsoever but a dumb comment I copy & paste all over a thread, is wrong"
- You
Diogenes-wannabe@reddit
Well oh shit, I don't know what could I use as proof? Hmm, maybe I'll go with the numbers that you yourself posted, that showcase how debt has been reducing in the past five years.
malaaaaaka@reddit
Are you acoustic ?
Far_Country_1629@reddit (OP)
15 years to go from 146 % to 150 %, im not sure the 5 years of marginal decreases make me super hopeful looking at the big picture, i can read numbers just fine.
loqu84@reddit
Are you from Germany to care this much?
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
Do you live in a cave? Did you miss the fact Greece went through the most severe financial crisis of a developed economy in the last 8 decades?
What you see post-2020 is the recovery. Your post makes it sound like this recovery isn't happening, the numbers literally tell the whole story, year by year.
Useful_Trust@reddit
The number are lying. I am a greek and I can tell you people are spending less and less, prices are skyrocketing and there has been a noticeable closure of small mom and pop shops. The goverment has essentially gutted the middle class in favor of a consortium of big businesses.
Now I am not saying that the government is to blame (they are) but covid and the war in Ukraine and Iran has fucked us. Also the gutting of the middle class has been constant and it started from the left goverment that we had from 2015 to 2019.
While yes the numbers are positive, we do not see the results. They numbers depict growth of big consortium and big businesses, while ignoring the ever shrinking self employed class.
boardsteak@reddit
The self-employed class has been the main tax avoiding group since forever in Greece. Your story is not far from truth but it disregards the fact that the same story is happening in the entire west
Useful_Trust@reddit
Counter argument, the self employed class pays the most taxes. Those who are in the public sector have I am not sure how to say it in English a flat amount of non-taxable income, while the self employed have to pay from the first euro taxes. While the big chains do not pay their fair share, because they "employ".
Also the most of the tax avoiding happend during the taxation of 2015, where there was high taxation and the tax advance for the next year you had to pay. You had to pay next years tax, not knowing if you would still be in business. And lets not forget the tax you had to pay for simply operating your business.
boardsteak@reddit
Of course they pay the most taxes. They also are the black market champions. These don't counter each other though.
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
No, the numbers aren't lying. The numbers aren't saying that the Greeks have a better standard of living, they say the debt to GDP ratio is dropping steadily for 6 years now, and this ratio is a prerequisite for the standard or living to start improving again.
That's how a major financial crisis impacts a country - people struggle because of increased taxes and limited social benefits that the government enforces to bring the debt down.
When it does drop enough, your standard of living will start improving. But this will take 5 more years or so.
Useful_Trust@reddit
Well yes mb, but anyone who says greece is doing better is only looking at statistics and misses the whole picture.
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
You're the one who said it, not me. I said the debt to GDP ratio is improving and you replied saying "the numbers are lying", as if these numbers show what the average Greek person can afford. That's not what the Debt to GPD ratio is supposed to show, it's what YOU think it shows.
Johnny-5594@reddit
then you're not looking in the right way...this result is amazing for Greece
Old-Republic-9033@reddit
Quality of life has been significantly decreased for mid/lower classes the last couple of years.
Which means that such numbers mean absolutely nothing when the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
Far_Country_1629@reddit (OP)
15 years to go from 146 % to 150 %, im not sure the 5 years of marginal decreases make me super hopeful looking at the big picture, but lets hope you are right and that trend continues.
Ziilot147@reddit
Tell me you're retarded without telling me you're retarded
Sharp_Win_7989@reddit
Pretty convenient for you to leave out the worldwide financial crisis, the eurozone crisis and the global pandemic. All events that aren't great for the national debt.
FrostyBelt6819@reddit
Brother at least it’s not increasing, some of the countries are getting buried under debt
ErikChnmmr@reddit
Math compression is difficult
Far_Country_1629@reddit (OP)
And writing "comprehension" seems also difficult, at least for you.
Far_Country_1629@reddit (OP)
Someone said: "the decrease in debt over the last few years is plasmatic. It does not corespond to growth. It is primarily achieved by reducing state expenditure. Primarily by cutting education, healthcare and social policies budgets. Infrastructure is aging and failing at an exponential rate at this point, and investment in public infrastructure and right of use of said infrastructure, is been granted to the private sector, experiencing massive delays, riddled by financial scandals and corruption."
KiWi_BnF@reddit
So for any other country 150% foreign debt is a disaster, but for Greece it is a success.😂😂😂
Late_Secret3480@reddit
We took all these measures to have the dept at 2010 levels.Then at 146% was not manageable and now at 150%is manageable
pitogyros@reddit
🤦
In 2010 we had -12% budget deficit (!!!!!!) per year (22 billion euros) , not only we couldn’t pay back our debt , but we were rapidly increasing it year by year , and when nobody is willing to borrow money to a bottomless pit who are you gonna borrow from ?
In 2026 it’s +1,5% ( +4 billions surplus )
Late_Secret3480@reddit
Because of politics and policies.They"cooked"the statistics and when they show the storm coming then they said,there are money e.t.c.The others are well known
Snoo-4916@reddit
These are Eurostat figures, not Greek government numbers.
What the fuck are you even talking about?
nikolassidGR@reddit
Under qualified politician sellouts
Paceronikus@reddit
What's amazing to me is that the debt repayment stagnated in the relatively prosperous times pre covid, but increased a ton during covid where countries usually borrowed to the max. Props to them for that.
duskygrouper@reddit
Look at their GDP:
2008: 351 Billion
2020: 191 Billion
2024: 256 Billion
Now look at your numbers again.
standermatt@reddit
What was the alternative, they were operating at a deficit and no person would have lent them money anymore besides for being charitable.
The number from 2008 was achieved by selling their future.
Prior-Flamingo-1378@reddit
It always does. Because governments are not businesses no matter how much the “technocrats” insist they are.
duskygrouper@reddit
Yes.
IWasNotMeISwear@reddit
2008 was fictional though as it was boosted by the massive public spending that caused the debt in the first place.
duskygrouper@reddit
Some of it, yes.
Prior-Flamingo-1378@reddit
Fictional? What was fictional? The Greek gdp?
LeptonTheElementary@reddit
Fictional is not the right word. It was unsustainable.
Icy-Coffee-672@reddit
It helped to bank of germany and italy...thats only reason of "saving" greece...no, germany and italy were saving their assets
krLMM@reddit
when you have such a high debt, paying interests on it become a sizable part of gour budget. Most governments print more money to reduce the debt actual value as currency the debt is in would depreciate.
Printing money increases prices directly and indirectly i.e. look at things that cannot be printed foe example real state, land, some materials and stocks. These assets balloon because money depreciates in a system where governments do this for short term budgets (so they don't have to cut expenses or change taxation - which are not popular measures).
Since the pandemic, the money supply has increased dramatically in US, EU followed suit and this is generating an impact even today. The pandemic accelerated this process by 20 years.
A byproduct of this process is that the top richest people are able to accumulate more wealth, as their invested money compounds, while the general public becomes poorer (salaries don't go up in line with inflation - not being able to be invested or having assets that appreciate).
InevitableOld5058@reddit
Reduced due to inflation not due to economic growth of Greece
-THEKINGTIGER-@reddit
Why do you people even have so much debt in the first place, here we wasted money on useless construction made by erdogans dogs, like bridges airports etc, and now turns out unnecessary cement does not generate fucking wealth. What the hell did you guys do to yourselves?
Proof-Ad62@reddit
You will be shocked to hear that the Netherlands has reached a debt of 500 billion this year. Greece had a debt of 300 billion when they defaulted.
ArtichokeOutside6973@reddit
Both Greece and Turkey went into this position
Both because of each other
To whole world; this is what bad relationships with people do to your economy
JahJahJahJa@reddit
Because of the memorandums forced to us by EU. Not only we have similar debt back to where all started, our economy was obliterated. And there is no hope for at least the next 10 years too. What could have been fixed with a few measures back in 2010, was made to an economic catastrophy for our country. Many economologists are very critical of what they enforced on us and how wrong was those measures. RIP
8elly8utton@reddit
It's unviable
Any decrease is done through systematic impoverishment of lower classes and the ceding of national wealth, so it's another bubble ready to burst.
Any other point by New Democracy trolls fellating their admins here is pointless.
Prior-Flamingo-1378@reddit
“What is say is right and any other opinions are wrong”.
Mohamed said that as well. Are you Muslim?
8elly8utton@reddit
"What is say"
Muhammad can likely speak better greek than you can speak english, μητσατσά του υπονόμου
Prior-Flamingo-1378@reddit
Ah yes the good old Greek ad hominem. That’s why you are a pathetic shithole that will soon die out.
8elly8utton@reddit
Honest question, how can you be such a dumb condom burst that you can't speak any language as a native?
AgiosPatrikios@reddit
Although I do agree with other comments that from 2020 and 2025 there's a decrease but
Did people not read the caption below the image?
Willing-Actuator-509@reddit
So from 206% to 150% doesn't seem an improvement to you?
Far_Country_1629@reddit (OP)
So if i owe 50.000 euros to you in 2010, and then my debt to you is 150.000 in 2023, and then im back at 50.000 euros in 2025, is that improvement or is it that im just back and owing you the same again ? ok if thats improvement to you then we disagree thats fine, brother.
555fffqqq@reddit
Look at the direction of the debt to gdp ratio, its getting better. In 2010 it was getting worse. So they are clearly in a better state now
_Arkus_@reddit
Yes, reducing your debt from 150.000 in 2023 to 50.000 in 2025 is in fact an improvement
Far_Country_1629@reddit (OP)
Well, to me improvement would have been to reduce the original debt, not increasing it and then go back to the original amount.
Willing-Actuator-509@reddit
But Greece was bankrupted till 2019. It was in the news all over the world.
castingcow@reddit
that's not how it works. if you owe 50k but you make 25k a year(GDP), that means you owe 200% of your money you are making. if the next year you make 10k instead of 25k but you still owe 50k, then that means you owe 500%. The debt isn't the only thing that it changes, the money you are making is also changing. GDP is well organised so governments can manipulate according to their needs. In GDP, investments (weapon investments for example) even building creations are included so you can understand how easily GDP can be manipulated. And after this, there is nominal GDP and real GDP.
Greece's debt is higher, but they also increased GDP so it looks like things are getting better, but it's the opposite. Investments can fail very hard.
Willing-Actuator-509@reddit
50k in 2010 and 50k in 2025 are completely different numbers.
Major-City-2491@reddit
Yes but this is percentage of GDP, so the number will not be affected by inflation; 150% of GDP in 2010 and 150% of GDP in 2025 will be different sums, adjusted for actual inflation in Greece. Granted, OPs example here ignores this.
Wera_Z@reddit
The table you presented is % of GDP. It doesn’t say much. For what we can safely assume, the total debt could be stagnating, but the GDP could be growing.
New_Race9503@reddit
Yeah, obviously
ProductGuy48@reddit
I think you need to read about inflation.
Remote_Development62@reddit
This is pointless without more countries or a country average as baseline.
Greefos@reddit
Source?
Old-Republic-9033@reddit
If you’re Greek you know these numbers mean absolutely nothing. It’s for people with no critical thinking skills to believe that we are progressing.
Reality is that quality of life has been significantly decreased, meanwhile the gap between Mid/lower classes to upper is getting enormously bigger.
Which basically means the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
Substantial-Cat2896@reddit
It was lower before yes, but then something happend, check what happend, now its going down again
pitogyros@reddit
It’s still a long way but this year it’s supposed to drop to 137% , being the first time in recent history Greek debt won’t be the highest in Europe ( Italy is gonna take our spot )
Of course that doesn’t mean the quality of life of the average citizen got better ( the opposite actually ) just in terms of country’s economy and numbers , things look kinda going on right direction
FaceMcShooty1738@reddit
It should be below US debt levels by the end of the decade, no?
pitogyros@reddit
It should yes , but that doesn’t mean much , debt itself isn’t bad if your economy is growing.
For example Zimbabwe has much smaller debt than most of the planet , doesn’t mean much though as their economy is a meme
FaceMcShooty1738@reddit
I mean sure if you think that's a smart comparison, all power to you.
pitogyros@reddit
I mean that despite Greece having less debt to gdp than USA in end of decade it doesn’t mean much since our economy is barely above meme category.
It’s heavily relied on tourism with industry being meme also
FaceMcShooty1738@reddit
... Really, that's your argument?
Greece shows how high debt can cripple an economy due to the pressure of international markets on the government to function properly.
And your argument is "in the past the US had lower debt levels and therefore was able to function properly so therefore the US can have infinitely high debt levels"???
Come on, that's just dishonest af
pitogyros@reddit
Im not downplaying the benefits of reducing our debt , obviously that’s good , but come on let’s not get overhyped , Greek economy has still tons of shit to deal with.
FaceMcShooty1738@reddit
Of course they have. What do you think I'm saying that the Greek economy will surpass the US economy Ina few years??
But obviously the US economy is growing strongly. The government spends 3-5 percent in deficit spending a year, that money obviously is going somewhere creating demand. Missiles, roads, ball rooms or lower unemployment for hiring people.
The Greek economy had the opposite: lower demand from government because of forced contraction.
If you believe that a 3-5 percent deficit spending is not long term sustainable then it is clear thst the US economy will be hit by this in the near future. Either via spending cuts (aka unemployment) or higher taxes.
sahinbey52@reddit
Because it is not important. A state can easily pay their debt, but why would they
Prior-Flamingo-1378@reddit
To have better access to credit. To have less expenditure to interest?
sahinbey52@reddit
They already own everything, as a person you might need credit, but as a state they can rent anything, they slready have people they earn taxes, they can tax anything. Debt is intentionally made, to make people think they can't get money from anything and it is okay to increase taxss
Prior-Flamingo-1378@reddit
I listed the reasons why a nation would like to pay its debt
sahinbey52@reddit
A nation might want, but the leaders don't want. They don't have an excuse for inflation and poverty then
alkorisno@reddit
Because it is in the EU and has no trade protections from rich Germans raising the prices for poorer citizens. Free market and inequality that comes with it
Its_just_Zhivko@reddit
I have a question? Does that mean Bulgaria is doing better... or not?
soa008@reddit
Because we have huge multi level corruption, eu systems tried to screw the economy to save their banking system , and we have no profitable production at anything except tourism which is also a dying mechanism due to high prices.
Of course this is a very general answer but the main points for a non economic forum is this.
TsortsAleksatr@reddit
Because some German finance minister cripple fuck decided he knew better on how to ~~punish~~ solve the debt crisis and it was by completely crippling the country's economy and GDP%, so that even if the debt was decreased or stayed the same in absolute value, the debt in terms of percentage of GDP vastly increased, due to GDP decreasing from austerity measures.
Kalagorinor@reddit
I am not saying that the German finance minister in question was necessarily right, but the root of the problem was, first and foremost, Greece itself. And please keep in mind that the situation would have been much worse if the European Central Bank and the IMF had not stepped in and bailed out Greece.
TsortsAleksatr@reddit
Whatever you say. Greece was a warning... Next time your country has a crisis because the banks are "too big to fail" you'll suffer the same fate as us. For example remember when it became a meme Greeks were in crisis because they were lazy?
Prior-Flamingo-1378@reddit
Ah yes the good good old Greek trope of “my problems are someone else’s fault”.
DinoTh3Dinosaur@reddit
Do you know what the word progress means
Far_Country_1629@reddit (OP)
146 % and 15 years later its at 150 %, wheres the progress my man ?
ExcellentElection882@reddit
A country’s economy is a big fucking ship to turn my man. Takes a long time to reverse direction, but after they did, a consistent 10-15% yearly reduction is incredible.
Far_Country_1629@reddit (OP)
People here have said they achieved it by reducing spending on things people actually need the support of the government to get, so it sounds like always, the regular folks pay for what the elites do.
ExcellentElection882@reddit
While partially correct, that’s a completely different point.
Temporary-Check-1507@reddit
You are just plain wrong . Since Covid the world printed so much money that IF a country made 100 billion worth of products nowadays without changing the amount of products the value would be 120-150 bill. What greece did was take the extra 20-50 bill and throw it at the debt
Hardstyle_Shuffle@reddit
Taking in accountt European countries have increased the percentage in past years it is an improvement.
DinoTh3Dinosaur@reddit
Ever heard of Covid? Show me 1 country that continued decreasing debt during 2020.
Get realistic buddy
Mashinekalibar123@reddit
Serbia. Alot we have just 44% of debt
Far_Country_1629@reddit (OP)
Ok so, you are changing positions now. First it was progress, not its progress because there was a pandemic. Was there a pandemic between 2010 and 2019 ? or you are gonna say its great progress to go from 185 to 181 ? come on.
577564842@reddit
No, but they were getting ready.
DinoTh3Dinosaur@reddit
lol
DinoTh3Dinosaur@reddit
Progress is relative to time reference frame. If your reference frame is only 2010 to 2025 (which you can cherry pick in any country), nothing happened. If you look at overall progress from a more relevant time frame that describes where the country is heading, such as the last 5 years, it’s a different picture. You seem to have a narrative here and picking the years will only confirm it
Far_Country_1629@reddit (OP)
I think 15 years is a good amount of time to get the big picture, if anything just picking the last 5 years seems to me more like a move to push a narrative.
Money_Lavishness7343@reddit
Do you know what the problem with your timerange is? Around 2010-2011 the country started austerity and repaying old bonds, by taking new loans - all by the orders and cooperation of the IMF and TROIKA and EU.
So, your whole narrative of "15 years timerange" is deeply flawed, because if you look the broader picture, just a year before your picture if not 2010 already, the debt was \~110%. So, yes, it is progress.
Also, TROIKA was a deeply failed project and Greece had austerity against every economical advice and logic because Wolfgang Schäuble wanted to be vengeful towards Greece and fingerpoint like a mad karen and disappointed dad. The problem is, his approach was deeply ~~ret*rded~~ scientifically awful. If you want investments in your country, you don't put higher taxes and apply austerity, instead you INVEST in your country, not the opposite. No country every in history became greater and approached investments by applying austerity, yet for "some reason" the very hated (by the Germans) and "lazy" Greece was forced to apply austerity because old grumpy grandpa Schäuble wanted to treat Greece like the trash he is - and I'm glad his misery ass is dead because of how many people he drove into extreme poverty and misery.
DinoTh3Dinosaur@reddit
Agree to disagree I guess my friend.
Lugia_the_guardian@reddit
They went up 50% before covid. What do u say bout that?
DinoTh3Dinosaur@reddit
If you use the 10 year time frame I would say they regressed, meaning it got worse
Reasonable_End_5741@reddit
Albania
kai6794@reddit
Dumb ass mf do you knew that the 2014 commodities crisis and the 2020 pandemic HAPPENED? MAYBE they had to deal with problems ALONG SIDE the debt
Dumb MF
Far_Country_1629@reddit (OP)
Relax buddy, relax. You'll be fine.
Direct-Antelope-9583@reddit
The same can't be said for you with your "logic".
kai6794@reddit
Sorry buddy, when I see stupid people saying stupid shit it makes me annoyed But yeah, it’s not my fault your shitty education failed you
think_panther@reddit
Με 4 χρόνια κυβέρνηση ΣΥΡΙΖΑ όπου ξεπούλησε και υποθήκευσε τα πάντα, με στάση πληρωμών και με ιστορικό χαμηλό στην τιμή του πετρελαίου το χρέος έπεσε 4 μονάδες.
Έρχεται ο COVID και εκτινάσσονται τα πάντα σε παγκόσμιο επίπεδο.
Πόσες μονάδες έπεσε το χρέος από τον COVID και μετά με κυβέρνηση ΝΔ;
Τη βλέπεις τώρα την πρόοδο και με καλύτερο βιοτικό επίπεδο αγαπητέ 2 month account;
BlueGorilla25@reddit
In 2010 it was 146% and increasing rapidly, now it is below 150% and keeps decreasing. One thing to consider regarding debt is whether it is viable. It's not only the percentage in relation GDP that is important.
Character-Pirate1297@reddit
Friendly_Scholar_782@reddit
The word "progress" was invented in 1939
People in BC 1000:
DinoTh3Dinosaur@reddit
While the BC 1000 crowd would still go: ____, “progress” was invented by the English in the mid 15th century haha
lefm2@reddit
Because the measures taken by the Eu and Imf in 2010 was never about saving the greek economy, but rather saving the german and french banks and setting an example for the indebted eu-countries.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/jun/05/imf-underestimated-damage-austerity-would-do-to-greece
https://debtjustice.org.uk/countries-in-crisis/greek-debt-crisis-case-banks-people
Tankette55@reddit
That's... a huge improvement? Lmao. I am italian, and for us, it is impossible
GalisReFile__@reddit
this graph doesn't show sh*t since gdp isn't stable lol
LeptonTheElementary@reddit
Paying off debt looks like an improvement. Until you realize that the Greek government can't think of an investment that will return more money than the low interest we're paying for these loans.
Avengernk@reddit
99% of comments here have almost no understanding of basic economics.
These numbers do not consider inflation.
GDP is not a great metric and can be manipulated easily.
The actual debt is larger than ever.
Debt by itself would not be a bad thing. Producing nothing of value from said debt is the problem, and it keeps getting worse every year.
NecessaryStory4504@reddit
if you pib decrease, you can have a balanced or positive budget, you % of gdp debt increase.
Radiant_Put_3609@reddit
holly corruption, lol.
Prior-Flamingo-1378@reddit
Funny conning from turkey.
Radiant_Put_3609@reddit
On these lands, the only thing that has changed since the beginning of time is the toys of war, lol.
wordsmithGr@reddit
That dramatic drop the last 5 years is because of the inflation. The Greek government doesn't reduce the taxes on the products and as a result it gains more. Hence the reduction. In absolute numbers our debt is only getting bigger and it exceeded the 400 billions.
enteralterego@reddit
I bet half of that decrease came from Turkish tourists 💯
Prior-Flamingo-1378@reddit
I mean Mykonos is borderline cheaper than Istanbul at this point.
enteralterego@reddit
Mykonos is one of the most popular tourist destinations - other islands are great for the same kind of vacation, but way cheaper than istanbul and better value than the south of Turkey.
gmakos@reddit
The Greek economy is viable at the moment and debt has turned around. The OP question, as stated by many already, is bogus.
However plenty of things could have been done in the quality of life for the ordinary citizens.
GDP per capita is alarmingly low in comparison the the rest of EU and lower than it was for Greeks 15 years ago.
This truth hits especially hard with birth rates, which are amongst the lowest in the EU.
To preserve a part of the Greek heritage, this issue is n.1 priority to be addressed, but it isn't. That is the main failure of the current government,
followed by cost of living (a combination of timing, devolved production sector, beaurocracy and corruption), and corruption itself.
ilikecreepypasta@reddit
It’s disappointing to see that you pose a question only looking to confirm your negative perspective and with no curiosity to learn and understand. This could have been a fruitful and educational discussion on the struggles of a nation one way or another, but your attitude in the comments is not giving that.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
Average post in this sub, it’s mostly bait content
No-Celebration-33333@reddit
Their GDP went up due to worldwide inflation. So debt represents smaller % of total GDP. Its possible that debt actually went up, but due to all the inflation thats hidden (not claiming that just explaining how numbers work).
Prior-Flamingo-1378@reddit
2010 deficit: 12%.
2025 surplus: 2.5%.
Is that inflation as well?
uncle_urdnot99@reddit
How exactly do you propose a country pays 2 times their entire GDP in less than 5 years?
Far_Country_1629@reddit (OP)
I'm not proposing anything, its just a question.
Prior-Flamingo-1378@reddit
With an answer that doesn’t suit you.
Serious-Fortune-4844@reddit
It doesn't. They share the same problem Italy has: their GDP does not go into investment and growth but welfare, pension and subsidies.
Prior-Flamingo-1378@reddit
Greek economy 2010: junk.
Greek economy 2025: BBB
RaviDrone@reddit
Cause the party in power has a debt of 500+ million. If they can't manage their own house. How are they gonna manage a country?
The other party in opposition is also 480 million in debt so there is no hope for us.
Prior-Flamingo-1378@reddit
What does that have to do with anything?
Greek deficit 2010: 12%
Greek surplus 2025: 2.5%.
In 2010 Greek was completely excluded by credit markets. Today we are a BBB economy.
alezio000@reddit
being back at the levels of 2010? lol, lmao even. These statistics do not resemble reality.
PckMan@reddit
Things are worse than they look. The majority of this decrease is thanks to inflation. The government will of course shout from the rooftops that they've decreased national debt but the average person doesn't understand economics enough to know what's going on.
"Debt" is the boogeyman that has shaped an entire generation, in fact it's shaped three generations so far. We borrowed money, money meant to be invested into the economy to bolster it, improve it, make things better for everyone. Instead most of that went into a few pockets and the rest was given away to court the lowest common denominator at the polls. When the time came to pay back we had done nothing of value with that money. All these years later and this continues to be the case.
Prior-Flamingo-1378@reddit
2010 deficit: 12%
2025 surplus: 2.5%
Pretty sure that’s not inflation.
mosa_kota@reddit
Greece seems to be doing just fine reducing it. Your understanding of economics, on the other hand...
Far_Country_1629@reddit (OP)
Ask any Greek if they feel the economy is doing fine.
Prior-Flamingo-1378@reddit
Greece is doing better. Not well, this is a worldwide phenomenon, but better.
Also don’t forget that Greece has a HUGE shadow economy.
To give you an example, I know a group businesses that employ in total ~60 people. According to statistics they make 900euro a month. In reality the least well payed is making 1600e
DaiFunka8@reddit
our economy is doing fine
I 've just went from making 0€ to 20.000€ annualy
FlakyContribution345@reddit
Corruption & incompetence.
Prior-Flamingo-1378@reddit
That caused the gdp to increase and the deficit to decrease?
Particular_End_4917@reddit
Magalos Kleftes
Interesting_Pop_1070@reddit
What matter is the interest you pay not the amount of dept you have and it is compared/countered with growth
For example: if you have 0% interest rate - it does not matter how much dept you have, as long as your economy has growth you fund the dept payment through the increased government income from the growth
Also growth is exponential. 5% this year and 5.5% next year, this 5.5% is on top of the 5% achieved last year. IE: 100 bil econonomy - 5% grown --> 105 bil. Next year 5.5% growth --> 110,70 bil economy.
Next up there are bonds - they don't have a yearly interest but mature after x years - Which means you can play around with loans/pay back/use cash for more growth and hence more easily payable interest payments & voila
buhmannhimself@reddit
Generally speaking are debts not a problem for governments. It is a smart move tomake a limited amount of debt, if you are a government. "Normal person" measurements don't apply to government or bit business. It is good that they decreased the big amount and still decreasing it.
fatbunyip@reddit
did you just read the first and the last line?
Far_Country_1629@reddit (OP)
So if i owe 50.000 euros to you in 2010, and then my debt to you is 150.000 in 2023, and then im back at 50.000 euros in 2025, is that improvement or is it that im just back at owing you the same again ? ok if thats improvement to you then we disagree thats fine, brother.
Prior-Flamingo-1378@reddit
It’s not? What did you expect to go from 150k to zero in 2 years?
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
Yeah, because 50k in 2010 and 50k in 2025 is not the same. Money loses value, it's called inflation. Open a book.
ProductGuy48@reddit
50k EUR in 2010 is way more than 50k EUR in 2025 terms. Compound annual EUR inflation between 2010 and 2025 is about 43%. So 100EUR in 2010 would be worth 143 EUR now.
fatbunyip@reddit
Yes, if you ignore all the years with improvement, you are left with no improvement.
For sure that is some top level logic.
Far_Country_1629@reddit (OP)
So, you are doing bad. Then you are doing really bad. And then you start to do better, and are back at just doing bad. Is that improvement ? well i mean, you can call it that but in my mind improvement is going from bad to good.
I'm sorry my logic isn't at your level, but i like mine better. Thanks for the reply.
elektricniorgazam@reddit
Did you even read your own graphic bruh
Far_Country_1629@reddit (OP)
Someone said: "the decrease in debt over the last few years is plasmatic. It does not corespond to growth. It is primarily achieved by reducing state expenditure. Primarily by cutting education, healthcare and social policies budgets. Infrastructure is aging and failing at an exponential rate at this point, and investment in public infrastructure and right of use of said infrastructure, is been granted to the private sector, experiencing massive delays, riddled by financial scandals and corruption."
Prior-Flamingo-1378@reddit
Greek gdp 2018 190 billion. Greek gdp 2025 240 billion.
Let me help you. 240 is bigger than 190.
loqu84@reddit
Who's that someone? Are they in the room right now?
Diogenes-wannabe@reddit
He made this same reply multiple times in the comments. He also has a hidden reddit history, so call me crazy, but OP might just be a bot or a complete moron.
WishyRater@reddit
From 206% to 150%? Is this not an improvement?
Kind-Bodybuilder-904@reddit
It should be under 100% or more lower for improvement
Prior-Flamingo-1378@reddit
Pretty sure you don’t know what the word improvement means.
Austerlitz2310@reddit
Because part of the money they received they never even saw. Straight back to Germany for things they never needed.
Fmligy@reddit
Unfettered corruption/nepotism/clientelism/greed.
poustogeros@reddit
It's called the New Democracy party. A party full of frauds, criminals and mobsters.
Affectionate-Arm-405@reddit
Why are you focusing so much on 2010 and completely downplay 2020 and after? Calling it a "marginal decrease "? Let's pick 2013 for me and 2017 for someone else. We will all have a different starting point to use as an outlook
Affectionate-Arm-405@reddit
Why are you focusing so much on 2010 and completely downplay 2020 and after? Calling it a "marginal decrease "? Let's pick 2013 for me and 2017 for someone else. We will all have a different starting point to use as an outlook
Felicz@reddit
Laziness + corruption = deadly mix
Cosmic_Web01@reddit
It is not impossible. It's just incredibly painful for the people and the prospects of immediate development. Debts should be strategic. The idea is to use resources that you do not currently have, so that you can increase your capacity to generate them yourself and pay the loan without being literally destroyed by it's interest. The thing is, not only were these payments delayed and added up interest, not only were a lot of these loans wasted on non-profitable expenses, but at the same time, at some point, our capital generation was inadequate to the point where the only way to pay loans, was by taking more.
According to both the EU and our politicians, we have reversed this. Right now, the state taxes and deals with a surplus, not a deficit. This surplus is used to pay upfront and minimize our debt exposure, starting from the most toxic of our loans (ex. IMF, very high interest rates). At some point it will reach a percentage of our GDP, where a government will understand that they might need to starting pooling it in back to the country. Reduce or completely abolish ENFIA, start maintaining again vital infrastructure, increase the purchasing power of the average citizen, things that in general futher help an economy to breathe.
Cosmic_Web01@reddit
Now it might be interesting to explain what we are seeing in your graph. From 2010 to 2015, both the Hellenic state, the EU and all other lenders, were attempting to figure out a process to a) Protect the EU financial institutions from toxic Greek assets (so that we don't get a domino effect like the US with their housing crisis) b) Make the Greek economy productive and functional. Erasing the debt was never the objective. The goal was always to bring it into a percentage of the GDP that we could all work with.
The memorandums that were imposed on Greece and their austerity, crippled our productive capacity. We were pulling taxes out of our asses. Hundreds of thousands of young productive people left the country, 1/3 of young people were unemployed and 1/4 of the total labour force too. Businesses closed, fortunes were lost. This also hit the national GDP. The debt could be the same from year to year, meaning we owed the same amount of money, but, the state had to tax an economy that lost it's momentum. Therefore the debt to GDP ratio increases.
Hot_Weakness6@reddit
Do countries actually pay off the debts? It’s like global debt phenomenon, you live from the interest rates
WhatFreeSpeech_007@reddit
they looked at the Romanians.. or the Romanians looked at them and didn't want to be left behind
Dimitereres@reddit
I will let you to make an assumption. Then I will answer.
Rosu_Aprins@reddit
It was holding a great pace until a global pandemic hit and the global economy slowed down significantly
DerWanderer_@reddit
Nah. 56% in five years is incredibly good. In fact it's so good I would not be surprised if told they had cooked the book again.
Afraid_Key4859@reddit
2 month old account
Sandzakguy@reddit
Isn’t this normal across the globe?
simpoukogliftra@reddit
This sub is a breeding ground for kissless virgins to ragebait
cloudgirl_c-137@reddit
Because the politicians have fat pockets. And then the rest of the world blames the people.
Top-Type6380@reddit
Most of you don't even know how Greece got in dept ,why and who decided it,I'm talking for France, Italy,Germany and Israel of course. Making progress won't change a thing,as long as the cow can give you milk ,you'll keep milking her ,when she's done you'll find another one ,btw this is a punishment for trying to make a deal with Russia on Gas , benefiting only Greece and Russia .
alfredfellig@reddit
Sea_Gap_6569@reddit
A tourism oriented economy is a big mistake for any country
RedLemonSlice@reddit
I am here just to watch OP getting skewered in the comments
Key_Benefit_6505@reddit
GDP per capita is the worst way to count debt/money in general.
baka22b@reddit
The worse part is that a significant percentage of that debt decrease is due to the privatization of a lot of (previously) state owned companies
Shqiptar89@reddit
Haha A po vun per grekët? Ishalla ju prishet krejt ekonomia
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
Get help
Excellent_Jeweler_43@reddit
Many Greek ports are actually not owned by Greece nowadays, China holds the majority stake in Piraeus, French consortium holds the majority in Thessaloniki, Crete is owned by Italian private fund and so on
TheCharalampos@reddit
Fuck
GlobalNova@reddit
It doesn’t work like that. It’s like saying, "It took me a month to gain 20 kg, so why aren’t I losing weight at the same pace?"
I understand that economics can be difficult, especially when dealing with complex issues such as external debt, private debt, inflation, and managing entire countries rather than individual businesses.
Noeaton@reddit
As they were pretty bad and had to be saved 2 times with measures directly from EU, the way borrowing works when you borrow a lot and have to re borrow to survive at some point they were only paying interest, for the past 10 15 years their GDP is not increasing while the money borrowed has interest that is due it's called a debt spiral which they entered and once you are in it getting out is hard, some other countries in EU are close to it
Inside_Marketing268@reddit
And what's wrong here? Greece is doing pretty good, depending on numbers given
Shqiptar89@reddit
Because they don’t want to.
-MrAnderson@reddit
Because the mechanisms that produce debt, i.e. the way the place is governed, are still well up and running.
P-l-Staker@reddit
Debt isn't a bad thing. The lack of GDP growth is.
-MrAnderson@reddit
You are right, should have phrased it properly.
Upstairs_Musician_51@reddit
Both are bad.
P-l-Staker@reddit
Debt is beneficial if it leads to a higher GDP.
Upstairs_Musician_51@reddit
Let me rephrase to be more specific, usury is bad. And the one we're suffering from is especially back breaking.
ILikeOldFilms@reddit
I think the idea is the following: you are in debt, but need money to the creditors. So you borrow money to pay some creditors that are due.
The interest also varies when you borrow money. You might want to borrow more money to pay off debts that have a high interest rates. Which translates in significantly more debt in the medium term, but for the long term it's better this way because you lowered the interest rates for your debt.
I think this explains why the Greek debt has reached a peak in 2020 and since then it's constantly decreasing - which is amazing giving the fact that that's when the COVID pandemic started.
You should analyze the interest rates of 2010 compared with 2025, maybe then you will see and understand the progress.
Confident-Evening-49@reddit
Long story short: corruption.
Long story long: ccccoooorrrruuuuppppttttiiiioooonnnn
Dadsfinest93@reddit
Because of the austerity policies. A government does not work in the same way a private company does, it needs to have the economy as a whole in mind, not it's own balance. If the state pays off debt that means it is taking more money out of the economic cycle than it pours into it. That money is now missing and must be replenished by someone else. However, private households are always taking money out of the cycle (by saving money instead of spending it) and so do most companies these days. The only other sector remaining is the foreign one. In a closed economy, nobody can save money without someone else making debt. That is why Greece is not recovering, even after more than 15 years. People point out "but the debt is slowly getting lower" Yes, but the people have still worse real wages than prior 2008. Selling this as some sort of success story, is cynical.
East_Succotash9544@reddit
Think of this as debt that will never be paid back. Why?
Because governments need money to pay for services such as army, health service, pensions, education and so on. They can either Increase taxes (unpopular step) or take a loan ( less resistance)
But is that a bad thing? Not necessarily. If government balance it's books and keep this under control they will have money forever.
First inflation eats part of the debt. Then increased productivity helps generating more revenue and thus more taxes.
Can this be bad? Yes, if market lose trust in the government they might want to dump large amount of debt and this can spark panic.
Another important thing is who owns the debt? Citizens or foreign ovners.
If citizens then government is safer as there is less likely that they will do fire sales. Foren buyers might.
ApplicationOk6762@reddit
Where is all tourism and ship owner money going🙃🙈🙉🙊
HYBRIDLqTHEORY@reddit
I still wonder what varoufakis plan would have done by now that tsipras was so afraid of
Self-Bitter@reddit
Good scenario: like Orban's Hingary but totally bankrupt and poor. Bad scenario: Begging Russia or China for help
HYBRIDLqTHEORY@reddit
Kinda funny (Didn't he plan a digital currency with Bitcoin and stuff like that?)
Penglolz@reddit
-50% since Covid. If that’s not progress, I don’t know what is.
Holden41@reddit
Liberals start all charts from 2008 or then call it progress
NickyGi@reddit
Greece went bankrupt in May 2010, and that is why we entered the memorandums and the International Monetary Fund. You know this right?
Kind-Bodybuilder-904@reddit
What is that bankrupt things happening in Greece can you give more info pls? (i dont know whats happening)
jojaibranjainvestt@reddit
We’re not going to tolerate greek slander in this sub!!
CupcakeEastern@reddit
Cash in hand doesn't pay tax.
ProductGuy48@reddit
What are you talking about they’ve made massive progress despite the difficult social cost.
STRYKERECLYPSE@reddit
Brava Greece
Pale_Adhesiveness981@reddit
Are varoufakis’s documentary hold any truth? I remember that he says its impossible in current deal with eu.
turbmanny@reddit
It is impossible, unless people vote for him and then magically it will be possible
0a_boy0@reddit
What would be the situation if they were not in eu?
turbmanny@reddit
I guess we will never know
magestromx@reddit
Don't forget we also sold off a lot of businesses in the inbetween.
nobody1568@reddit
Debt to GDP is a fraction.
If your GDP plummets due to austerity measures, then your debt to GDP ratio won't go down even if you stop borrowing.
If your GDP plummets due to austerity measures AND you keep borrowing to bail out foreign banks, then your debt to GDP ratio will skyrocket.
The recent decrease is due to inflation, record tourism numbers after covid and european recovery funds.
vaguraw@reddit
Also keep in mind that being in debt as a country is not inherently bad. For greece it is especially so due to its weakened economy and grave difficulties to develop within the context of a modern economy.
Far_Country_1629@reddit (OP)
Its not bad when you are Germany, its very bad when you are Greece.
Leonniarr@reddit
E.g public transport is shit -> I don't pay ticket -> public transport can't improve -> public transport remains shit -> I don't pay ticket etc.
But even if you try to break the cycle and pay for the ticket, due to corruption 99% of that money will go to people's pockets and not public transport.
Honestly, I fell I could go on and on so I am just going to leave it at that. These things cover at least most of the issue. Basically, nothing is happening, nothing is changing, nothing is getting better, things naturally detiriotate,no money is invested, more money is used to imports, exports are not promoted or improved, political and geopolitical relations improve but only in theory never irl.
tormentius@reddit
Wdym? Its 25% down since 2020
FatefulDonkey@reddit
We're the Balkans. Divided by zero
hitteroff@reddit
Look at dxy
gokkai@reddit
selling tons and tons of golden visas
Zarktheshark1818@reddit
15 years only to be back to the same levels as 2010 OR......... 5 years to lower it 25%. Your choice I suppose.
Far_Country_1629@reddit (OP)
Someone said: "the decrease in debt over the last few years is plasmatic. It does not corespond to growth. It is primarily achieved by reducing state expenditure. Primarily by cutting education, healthcare and social policies budgets. Infrastructure is aging and failing at an exponential rate at this point, and investment in public infrastructure and right of use of said infrastructure, is been granted to the private sector, experiencing massive delays, riddled by financial scandals and corruption."
Zarktheshark1818@reddit
There's only two ways to do it. Grow GDP while not increasing spending or by austerity measures. I don't know enough about this to say whether this is sustainable, whether the austerity measures are a net positive or negative, etc.... But either way, the last 5 years, according to this graphic, they have cut into the debt to GDP ratio. So, that is progress on the goal....
Johnny-5594@reddit
Something changed in 2021
EdgeCraftOS@reddit
2008 to 2018: 10 years of destructive economic crisis.
2020: World economy halt due to Covid19
2021 - 2026: Great Progress in debt decrease.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Because of Ottoman conquest for five hundred years.
JumpApprehensive9949@reddit
Blindeafmuten@reddit
First we should clear that this is the public (government) debt.
The reason why it is impossible to improve the debt situation is because the leeches feeding off the public funds were never removed.
In order for the public debt to look a little improved there has been a huge pressure in purchasing power parity.
Which in simple terms means that the public debt is being paid slowly by the empowerment of the individual in Greece.
AffectionateGap5258@reddit
High taxes = less gdp high spending=more debt
markohf12@reddit
150% debt to domestic and EU creditors you can pay out is better than 146% debt you can not pay out to the god chosen people who pray on a wall.
FthisFthatFall@reddit
As one of your neighbour, this seems quite familiar.
camelBackIsTheBest@reddit
Turkiye has the lowest debt to gdp ratio in active g-20 member countries.
No-Sandwich2225@reddit
Because you have nothing, everything is about tourism.
P-l-Staker@reddit
You can't make lemon juice without lemons.
Likewise, you can't raise productivity and generate growth without government stimulation. Since 2008, governments have been mostly doing the exact opposite.
XannAlexandru@reddit
Come to Romania to see numbers 😂😂😂
U__X@reddit
Wait for an election
Beautiful-Dish-6275@reddit
...dude
Taki32@reddit
Because the Germans haven't given back what they stole in the 40s
Matija_sjekira@reddit
Well it looks like it Is getting Berger since 2020.
Leading-Attempt-7364@reddit
Germany is watching like this mfker again.