Nuclear Power is now “safe?”
Posted by toaddawet@reddit | GenX | View on Reddit | 285 comments
I work with much younger people (mostly in their 20s - I’m 50) and have heard them advocate for Nuclear Power plants being the “safest” option in our modern world.
I remember Chernobyl. I read a very detailed book a few years ago about what happened at Chernobyl and the horrific effects it had on the people involved as well as the environment. Waste that could take thousands of years before it’s no longer dangerous? Land rendered uninhabitable for generations? No thanks!
When I asked a young coworker how nuclear power could be “safe” he insisted that modern innovations have made it so meltdowns “can’t happen”. I was stunned.
My fellow GenX’ers, have you heard about this? Is it true? I’m very hesitant to put any faith in it. Are these younglings fooling themselves or am I just uninformed? I am genuinely curious.
Blurghblagh@reddit
Modern nuclear power plants can be very safe if done properly. In other words not by private corporations trying to maximise profits by cutting corners. It needs strict oversight and regulation. Given what is happening in the US with government departments, environmental regulations etc. being gutted in favour of shareholder profits I'm not optimistic.
But waste is the real issue, not just because of the need to store such dangerous material but also because only a few percent of the uranium's potential is used before burying it in vaults for 10 thousand years or whatever. It is incredibly wasteful and the uranium should be saved until we can maximise the efficiency and use it where no other current power source will do such as deep space exploration.
kcsews@reddit
The waste issue IS the issue!
Blurghblagh@reddit
Yes, that was my point.
ShadA612@reddit
Waste issues are not exclusive to nuclear though. Keep in mind that solar and batteries have usable life spans as well. They generate waste on large scales.
I am not saying that nuclear waste is inconsequential, just that other forms of energy generation create waste that can be equally harmful and in larger quantities.
fridayimatwork@reddit
Not really. The waste can be recycled and the amount is tiny.
Difficult-Affect-220@reddit
It's very safe. It got a bad wrap in the 70s when some environmental groups lobbied against it using scare tactics based on bogus "safety" claims. We should be pursuing an aggressive nuclear energy agenda to wean ourselves off oil.
jaspnlv@reddit
You are miserably under informed. Nuclear is the most regulated power production method in the US. Coal plants emit more radiation than nuclear plants do. Chernobyl happened because the ussr didn't build any of the safety measures into the facility because they couldn't afford it. Modern reactor designs like molten salt and thorium pebble bed reactors cannot melt down the same way that the older pressurized water designs could.
Cisru711@reddit
And the waste? Where we keeping that?
GnarlyLeg@reddit
In the mines where we dug up the radioactive ore to start with.
addctd2badideas@reddit
Wherever is good. I'm sure the energy companies are being responsible.
fridayimatwork@reddit
Yeah it’s been safely used in France for decades. It’s an irrational fear
SuchDogeHodler@reddit
graphite-coated fuel pellets = no meltdown
GiveMeSomeShu-gar@reddit
We don't have to guess - look at death rates per terrawatt hour, which is how these things are measured.
Nuclear power is among the safest options. It's also clean.
Astralglamour@reddit
Were they not alive for Fukushima?
Young people are being propagandized by pro nuclear people somewhere- youtube? podcasts? 4chan? They are all over reddit that's for sure.
in-a-microbus@reddit
The propaganda is thick on both sides. People who make money on nuclear power will put out propaganda that says nuclear is perfectly safe and climate change will completely melt the polar ice caps by ~~2012~~ ~~2020~~ 2045. While people who make money on coal and oil will tell you climate change is junk science and nuclear meltdowns are inevitable
MiddleAgeCool@reddit
Although in my lifetime as a GenX'er, more people have died from radiation based accidents causes due to medical/industrial accidents than fallout or leaks from nuclear power stations. I'm including Fukushima, Chernobyl and Three Mile Island, and if you want while outside of my lifetime, both Windscale and Kyshtym can be included.
Incidents at nuclear power stations are very rare and because of that make a great scare piece in the news. The reality is that even if we stopped all nuclear power today, it wouldn't have any significant impact to the number of deaths, direct or indirectly, globally from radiation.
Astralglamour@reddit
source?
MiddleAgeCool@reddit
I'm happy to pull together sources for you later because I'm at work at the moment but you're free to Google if you can't wait. You want to look for the number of deaths attributed to the incidents above and then search for things like the Costa Rica radiotherapy accident in 1996 or the Panama radiotherapy accident in the early 2000's. You'll find plenty more.
Astralglamour@reddit
isolated incidents being cherry picked. I have done research and find nothing to support your assertions. are you seriously going to posit that these incidents killed more people than hiroshima/nagasaki? or exposed more people than chernobyl??
revdon@reddit
A major problem is that most nuclear power plants are not new designs. Plants that opened in the 70s/80s were barely updated from the plans drawn in the 50s when we were rushing to prove nuclear energy was the modern way of doing things.
Since we stopped building new plants in the 80s due to construction cost overruns and fear, we've largely stopped trying to improve or safen those designs.
But Thorium and other modern reactors can't go critical and deactivate themselves if they overheat.
Several-Guarantee655@reddit
No, we've(humans) have created significantly safer plant designs. Engineers have been working to improve them this entire time. We just haven't been able to build any due to misplaced fears. Chernobyl was a product of the horrible Soviet system of government. We absolutely can make safe nuclear power plants. The Navy has been doing it for give or take 80 years now without issue.
Advanced_Couple_3488@reddit
Not so much because of misplaced fear but because the economics don't make it worthwhile.
revdon@reddit
Yes, that’s what I said.
Soylent_Milk2021@reddit
Problem with past plants and US plants, is people thought bigger is better. When the plants are smaller, they are pretty safe.
VampyKitten5@reddit
My concern is the waste it produces is incredibly difficult to dispose of. We have concrete bunkers in the desert from the 80s, and still wondering if they are holding up
Sunlight72@reddit
That is not current technology.
VampyKitten5@reddit
I get it. I am for moving away from fossil fuels. But at that time (many years ago) concrete was considered safe practice. I understand that there have been major advances in handling waste, but history does make me wary. I hope there is a plan in place to address the "sins of the past" in regards to mitigating the possible fallout from improper storage. I honestly don't know enough about the tech behind it all, and am willing to learn the "good side" of nuclear. My bias is living 25 years adjacent to a plant and having to keep iodine tablets and evacuation maps on hand.
Soylent_Milk2021@reddit
What the heck are iodine tablets going to do in the event of a nuclear waste emergency?
Astralglamour@reddit
renewables are a better solution that also doesnt place all power generation in the hand of a few. hydro, geothermal, solar, wind- one of these can be implemented pretty much anywhere with a low cost barrier and carbon debt. what we really need is a way to replace jet fuel as electric batteries just aren't powerful enough to power aircraft or ships. however, i doubt people would want to fly on a plane fueled by a nuclear reactor.
Astralglamour@reddit
source?
that is just not true at all.
Ingestre@reddit
I think Norway has just built a huge underground storage system for nuclear waste. It's designed to keep it there safely for thousands of years.
Astralglamour@reddit
There is a temporary national waste repository in Himdalen (Viken).
and importantly, compared with nuclear power nations, the quantity of spent nuclear waste generated by the research reactors in Norway is very limited and the result of scientific testing.
Astralglamour@reddit
they aren't.
Evil_Weevil_Knievel@reddit
Nuclear power is extremely safe.
Chernobyl was a horrifically poor design driven by cost cutting and hubris.
That being said, although nuclear power still is an important technology to use, renewables are fast becoming cheaper.
There’s even lots of technology that can utilize “waste” and make it into even more power. Nuclear power”waste” is only slightly depleted.
Look up the Canadian CANDU reactor and all the newer smr designs.
China is building nuclear power as fast as they can.
x650r@reddit
Renewables are getting cheaper but they don’t come close to providing what we actually need for power. The biggest benefit to nuclear power is the lack of greenhouse gas.
fridayimatwork@reddit
Yes ironically the environment would be much better if we hadn’t listened to environmentalists on this
Zapp_Rowsdower_@reddit
I gave up on the intelligence level of this country with the anti-nuclear push from activists. Destroyed the future of clean energy but they got to yell a lot.
Banana_Prudent@reddit
There is no such thing as safe nuclear power.
Safer than 30 years ago? Maybe.
We’ve seen several catastrophic accidents in our time across the globe. And, they will absolutely happen again.
It’s like saying cars are “now safe.” Shit happens, always, when humans build and operate any system.
Holistically, also, you MUST include spent fuel rods in the mix of “safe.” They are immensely lethal in near perpetuity.
I’m not saying don’t use it ever. But, as a species, let’s not build them in unstable environments like a tsunami zone. And, let’s not swallow the lie that nuclear is “safe.” It’s at best, safer today, like cars. Dead people are gonna happen and both (nuclear and cars) will kill or severely injure the planet.
Callysto_Wrath@reddit
You are uninformed.
You may remember Chernobyl, but you don't understand it. It took a combination of catastrophic decisions and failures, all of which were predicted, to cause the accident. Which still didn't kill or harm as many people as even the most optimistic thought it would.
Nuclear power is literally the safest in the world. It kills the fewest people, results in the fewest health impacts. The two worst nuclear accidents in history have collectively resulted in fewer than 100 deaths. I guarantee if you look up your country's statistics, more people died falling off roofs while installing solar panels last year than in the entire history of nuclear energy generation.The cancer numbers touted by anti-nuclear campaigners are a combination of cases where the patient survived, or completely unattributable to the incident (the Fukushima incident literally cannot be seen due the increase in cancer cases being so much smaller than the standard deviation in annual cases).
The entirety of all high level nuclear waste (the sort that lasts centuries) produced in the history of nuclear energy generation, worldwide, does not fill a swimming pool. We know we can store it in geological storage while we transition to renewables (hell, big handfuls can also be recycled if we wanted to), it is a completely solved problem.
Essentially, you have been propagandized to by massive industries with a vested interest in eliminating their competition, using fear and promoting ignorance to keep you spending on them and their products (hint: it rhymes with "toil and grass")
Available-Bison-9222@reddit
Entire cities have had to be abandoned for thousands of years. Thousands of people's health has been impacted. We still don't know the extent because the children are still being born with defects resulting from the accident.
Callysto_Wrath@reddit
Priyapt has been abandoned, it didn't have to be, the cleanup operation has been successful and it's only fear mongering and risk aversion that have kept it that way. The area around Fukushima never needed to be evacuated, the radiation levels never approached dangerous, again fear mongering and ignorance to blame.
With Fukushima specifically, the evacuation caused multiple orders of magnitude more harm than the meltdown. It was catastrophic mis-management, a knee-jerk reaction by officials who literally didn't understand what had happened or what would happen (and to be fair, they were dealing with 10000+ casualties from the tsunami, so their risk appetite was understandably low, but it's still pretty inexcusable).
The claim that children are being born with defects caused by Chernobyl is sensationalist and not backed up by any data whatsoever. Studies which actually report their findings show inconclusive results. The ones purporting to show huge increases are near universally not doing so, and are horrifically misquoted by cynical organisations in an effort to spread fear. Their propaganda has clearly worked on you.
Available-Bison-9222@reddit
I would say the pro nuclear propaganda has worked on you. There is still a 1000 mile exclusion zone around Chernobyl. They aren't doing that for shits and giggles. It is one of the most studied and monitored areas on earth and still has dangerous levels on radiation.
Children who were exposed under tge age of 5 have had their genetics permanently changed which will go down the generations.
https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2026/0426/1570196-comment-analysis-chornobyl/
bluenoser613@reddit
They are right. The way forward is with a mix of renewables.
icy_sylph@reddit
Nuclear is not renewable, though.
radioactivecat@reddit
Did that book explain the cause of the Chernobyl meltdown?
Six_Pack_Attack@reddit
You are much more likely to get in a car accident than a plane crash. But what if you flew everyday? And what if a car crash meant falling 30 000 feet?
GeneralPatten@reddit
Not sure what poi;t you're trying to make, but... there are many real world examples of people who fly every day. They're called pilots, and they are far more likely to die during their commute home from the airport than they are from falling 30K feet from the sky.
Speaking of falling 30K feet... what does it matter if you fall 30K feet from the sky, versus careening 300 feet into the tail end of a tractor trailer? Dead is dead. And, the fact remains, you're exponentially more likely to experiences the latter than the former, even if you fly every day of your life.
Six_Pack_Attack@reddit
Crash v fatality. What percentage of car crashes are fatal?
Correct_Security_742@reddit
Nuclear power is unlimited and cleaner than everything else we use. We just don't use it for the ass backward belief it's not safe because of all the money made through other means.
Trolkarlen@reddit
Unlimited ? We will run out of uranium in 130 at the current rate of usage. Increase the usage and it becomes a few decades.
Correct_Security_742@reddit
I'll be gone... So, it's unlimited right now.
Trolkarlen@reddit
Such a selfish attitude that got us in this mess.
Astralglamour@reddit
Unlimited and cleaner when you consider the massive carbon debt required to build a nuclear plant, the massive water use, and the toxic waste we have no safe way to store or dispose of? interesting.
Correct_Security_742@reddit
How up to date is that info...? I dunt think you've researched current nuclear energy plants.
bkward@reddit
I would upvote this 10x
Correct_Security_742@reddit
Thank you
Tarddiadhynafol@reddit
It seems that natural gas would be a better source
BWWFC@reddit
safer than driving lol and always has been. with effort, we are smart enough
eric44051@reddit
Don't forget Three Mile Island.
Squibit314@reddit
My brother was a nuclear engineer back before three mile island. He said it was the safest source back then. The issue was that when there was an accident it was huge. HUGE.
Several-Guarantee655@reddit
Nobody was harmed and little to no radiation ended up escaping during the 3-mile Island incident. So I would say the safety procedures worked exactly as they were supposed to.
Upper_Ad_4837@reddit
3 mile , Chernobyl, Fukushima. All "safest " Best practice "
Blah, Blah , but if it goes wrong , then what adjectives are used ????
Several-Guarantee655@reddit
Well the only one that happened inside the United States was 3 Mile Island and all of the safety procedures worked exactly how they are supposed to. Little to no radiation escaped, and there were no health effects to the public or the workers from the incident
HermioneMarch@reddit
Safer but not as safe as solar
Several-Guarantee655@reddit
Check out @tfolsnuclear on YouTube
yanknga@reddit
They are multiples safer due to design and technical innovations. China probably has the most leading edge plants.
OneLonelyBeastieI-B@reddit
This is the current narrative being pushed.
No one knows what is in the sarcophagus at Chernobyl, nor do they know why it is currently heating up, nor do they know what to do if it continues to heat up without stopping.
Therefore to people who say it is “the safest”, I say this- “If you know how to stop a nuclear reaction from continuing after a meltdown, and you know how to identify the remains after a meltdown, please go to Russia and help those at Chernobyl do so. Then I will believe it is the safest. Until that day, I do not subscribe to this thought process.”
Local_lifter@reddit
Chornobyl is in Ukraine.
MarquesTreasures@reddit
it's just as dangerous as it was before. but managed much better than the 1980s....thus the illusion of "safer" (and using Chernobyl as a "lessons learned")
but once us Gen Xers start retiring and lazier, entitled generations take over, I fear that danger will return as they will cut corners and bring the danger back.
420EdibleQueen@reddit
I’ve heard it and statistically the statement is correct. Yes I remember Chernobyl and the fallout being tracked world wide. And yes the reactor in Japan following an earthquake and tsunami. I also remember Three Mile Island is Pennsylvania.
I remember my dad, who worked at a power plant, telling us the corporate line of if you stripped naked and hugged the outside of the reactor building you would be exposed to less radiation than an x-ray. Over the years documents and the camera footage from inspecting the reactor have come out that show the company lied about everything, including lying to the government. Where we lived at the time was considered a “safe zone” in the event of a full meltdown. Also a lie.
The big issue with nuclear isn’t the plants, it’s the corporate greed and negligence that come with any industry.
Maximum_Locksmith_29@reddit
this is what i came here to say
Bad-job-dad@reddit
Yes. They're right. There are 400+ nuclear power plants in operation worldwide that work just fine and they're perfectly safe.
Stigger32@reddit
Until they aren’t.
Chernobyl, Fukushima…
PuzzleMeDo@reddit
If you compare the ratio of harm inflicted to power generated by nuclear plants (including the mistakes we learned from decades ago, like Chernobyl, which we're unlikely to repeat) with the death toll from fossil fuel pollution, falling off a roof while installing a solar panel, etc, the nuclear-power plants come out looking pretty safe.
ChaosRainbow23@reddit
But then the aliens come and reduce the radiation levels for us.
RunRunRabbitRunovich@reddit
Live by Three Mile Island and remember being evacuated. Fish by there too and frogs and fish are mutated. So not thrilled it’s opening again.
TheChewyWaffles@reddit
Very safe
Ambitious_Unit1310@reddit
There was also the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster in 2011
Infidel_sg@reddit
Fukashima was an act of God nobody could have planned for...
mikey_ramone@reddit
😂
PuzzleMeDo@reddit
Except by remembering that they were building in a tsunami-vulnerable zone and taking appropriate precautions.
However, the death toll was approximately zero, despite bad decisions and bad luck, so it's not much of an argument against nuclear power.
LKPTbob@reddit
That was a tsunami, on an island.
Frequent-Chapter-546@reddit
You do realize the Navy has been operating about 70 nuclear reactors for over 50 years, right? It is safe
LKPTbob@reddit
This is the same logic I use.
Distinct_Magician713@reddit
In theory. In practice, there are dumbasses everywhere.
Sweaty-Seat-8878@reddit
safe is a relative concept and the risks are real but the risk reward is compelling in terms of transition away from the major contributors of warming. It could have a huge role in solving the problem in conjunction with other alternatives like solar and wind.
We lost a generation of technologists who could have been improving safety and efficiency when we moved away from nuclear.
The fukushima disaster is tragic. Not sure how many power plants of any sort could have survived an earthquake and tsunami. And the comparison to chernobyl is a good one, no direct deaths from radiation (almost 20k from the tsunami) and 97% of the area is reclaimed as safe.
We can’t afford to dismiss the potential of nuclear out of hand
deadlyspoons@reddit
Nuclear “power plants” are nuclear waste storage sites that happen to produce power.
Look at any US plant and see where the waste ended up being stored. Yup, right on site.
Imagine the cost of producing this electricity is one tenth the cost of other methods. Ten cents instead of a dollar. Do you actually think these savings will be reflected in your bill? Really?
Coffee_24-7@reddit
The new Small Modular Reactor technology is very safe.
geeeking@reddit
It's the classic fallacy of comparing a few dramatic events vs the slow unexciting, unnewsworth but constant and extreme pollution of coal fired plants.
patbagger@reddit
It always was, this was just another generational lie.
Round_Ad8947@reddit
Did you know that Chernobyl happened 40years ago on April 26, 1986?
Indeed, both the story of is cause and the intervening have shown what is hopeful in our modern world: systems engineering.
We are continuing to learn the mysteries of biological control systems that so intricate and stable that our bodies are so resilient (until they are not), unlike the systems of checks and balances we made in our societies (until they are not)
From Chernobyl, scientists and engineers have poked and prodded nuclear system designs and worked through many of the errors that allow Chernobyl, TMI, and Fukushima to happen.
My personal worry is that people feel that nuclear fission and fusion will solve all of our limits on energy, but forget there is a limit: all power becomes heat, an limitless power without a heat sink melts down on its own, no matter the source.
Available-Bison-9222@reddit
There have been 32 reported incidents in Nuclear power plants since 1950s. There have been countless incidents at waste storage sites.
It could be a lot safer but unfortunately governments decided that a process that creates uranium that can be used for weapons was the way to go.
Many-Role-4271@reddit
Chernobyl was a Gen 1 Soviet reactor, one with many points of failure, but mostly it was human error.
I worked at the Idaho National Laboratory. The modern reactor designs are essentially not able to melt down or explode like that. It’s controlled by the actual chemical reaction so it would simple shut down naturally.
So much has changed since those original 1950s era designs. Even the ones in Fukushima are in the irrelevant phase of their lifespan. And that accident was mostly spent fuel in storage pools overheating.
Mindless-Baker-7757@reddit
Chernobyl was just about the dumbest design of a nuclear power plant one could dream up.
SensitivePotato44@reddit
And even then it would have been fine if they
A. hadn’t used it for an experiment
B. followed the experiment protocol
C. Hadn’t staffed it with operators who didn’t understand how it worked
Ray_The_Engineer@reddit
Every type of power generation has its risks; nuclear power is correctly regarded as the current best method for safe, sustainable electricity.
TulsaOUfan@reddit
They are right. Fernoboe was 30ish years ago. Modern plants use totally different technology. We also learned a lot from previous safety accidents. Lastly, a major reason Chernobyl happened was because of Russian corruption and using substandard materials all around.
New reactors are so much safer than fossil fuels and don't even produce waste like they used to.
There has quietly been nuclear power all over the US. A nuclear plant has been running fine for decades in Arkansas close to the Oklahoma border. A client just got placed in Texas to build a new reactor there. We needed this newer nuclear 20 years ago.
rsint@reddit
This reads like someone saying those newfangled planes will never be as safe as the good old steamtrain.
john-bkk@reddit
I'm no expert, but my understanding is that the main problems with nuclear power are that it's relatively expensive and the waste lasts for thousands of years. Obviously enough Fukishima and Chernobyl identified what could go wrong, and those are outlier circumstances, but it's not as if they're the only possible set of them. So sure, it's safe, relatively speaking, unless you count what might possibly happen over the next few thousand years, which is going to be hard to factor in.
I think the bias against fossil fuel use and the requirement for something to fill in beyond solar, since it doesn't really work at night, is what leads to the current bias in favor of nuclear. Once solar gets inexpensive enough and larger scale battery solutions enter in, or a functional equivalent, I suppose that will be it for nuclear. It's too bad that it never worked out to use hydrogen on a larger scale; excess daytime solar production could be used to break apart water molecules, storing the energy there. But hydrogen cars didn't work out to be practical, or anything else, so far.
govnah06@reddit
Dude. It’s the safest operating power source. The Navy has been operating small reactors on ships for a while now, we have multiple plants functioning without incident and are bringing some that were shut down back online.
Astralglamour@reddit
No, it is not. It is not safer than solar or wind. the fact that the military uses nuclear reactors on subs does not fill me with confidence considering the lapses in safety at the national nuclear labs.
toaddawet@reddit (OP)
You make good points about them using nuclear power for ships, I hadn’t thought of that.
doug123reddit@reddit
MUCH smaller reactors with, yes, a good safety record. But every country had a good safety record until they had an accident. No one here seems to mention the problem of nuclear waste, or that Fukushima will cost hundreds of billions to shut down — so how cost effective was it?
Astralglamour@reddit
hundreds of billions that the people will have to pay for.
Accomplished-Bet-883@reddit
Fossil fuels kill a few people every day. Oil rig accidents, mine cave-ins, black lung disease, a host of things.
Overall, fossil fuels are much more dangerous.
Astralglamour@reddit
It's almost as if there are other highly successful and easy to implement energy generation sources besides nuclear and fossil fuels- but thats not the conversation any one in this thread wants to have. They'd rather spend billions to construct nuclear plants that are vulnerable to climate change and will take a decade or more to bring online.
Sad-Corner-9972@reddit
The tech billionaires want data centers powered by any means necessary. The fevered desperation is a tell: there is no PR campaign too expensive. Nuclear power is one facet.
NearbyQuantity1847@reddit
I believe I read that many more safeguards have been introduced through the decades.
Even a former head of Greenpeace was advocating for it.
It may not be perfect, but it’s probably the best option today.
ByronScottJones@reddit
Nuclear power, when designed and run PROPERLY, is extremely safe. Chernobyl was based on a design that was so dangerous that when the early American physicists invented it, they quickly realized it was a dangerous unstable design, so much so that they publicly disclosed the design, why it was dangerous, and implored other scientists not to use that design.
So the Soviet Union took that design and built the biggest one they could.
As for Fukushima, all they had to do was ask the damn American military already in the country to bring emergency generators ASAP, and they would have had them there in time. But they delayed asking for help until it was too late.
As for Three Mile Island, it was one of the first generation of designs, not nearly as safe as modern ones. But because they designed multiple layers of safeguards, the design worked, prevented the release of any significant radiation, and prevented a real disaster from happening. With modern designs, you can literally just walk away from the plant, abandon it entirely, and it will shut itself down safely.
Combining solar, wind, and nuclear, and getting rid of fossil fuels, is absolutely the way to go.
Astralglamour@reddit
It is a zero mistake technology- no matter how 'failsafe' modern designs are (and nothing created by humans is failsafe) -a meltdown would still be just as catastrophic as fukushima. we still have no workable way to deal with the toxic waste nuclear plants produce.. Recycling it is fraught with high risk of material being stolen for weapons, and has low success.
Gullible-Apricot3379@reddit
I thought I remembered something like this but a quick google didn’t turn it up. Was it something to do with cobalt rods? I think I remember something about having to manually move them vs a power failure causing them to drop into place, but when I tried looking for that (admittedly spent about two minutes looking) I couldn’t even figure out if cobalt has anything to do with it.
ByronScottJones@reddit
Search for Chicago Pile One, and Graphite Core Reactors.
Dentarthurdent73@reddit
I'm not particularly advocating for nuclear power, but I'm wondering if you've read any books recently on the horrific effects that fossil fuels and climate change have on the people involved and the environment?
Nicoishere2@reddit
Gen z here, reality is that nuclear is one of the safest energies, the incidents that have happened are big and loud and have only led to it becoming even safer with additional fail-checks, I still prefer solar and wind personally but I still think nuclear has an place, coal is much deadlier but it's silent so people don't notice or care.
abstractraj@reddit
Look into some of the modern reactors tech like molten salt. Way less risky and extremely high power generation. Look at France where they run a lot of nuclear power. Are they melting down all the time? No
Astralglamour@reddit
I looked into MSRs: https://thebulletin.org/2022/06/molten-salt-reactors-were-trouble-in-the-1960s-and-they-remain-trouble-today/
deeptut@reddit
But better don't look at the reactor security regarding wearout in France. And in hot summers they had to turn off many of them because there wasn't enough water for cooling in the past.
Astralglamour@reddit
these people arent interested in hearing anything but how nuclear is perfect.
That-Surprise@reddit
Coal power killed far more people than nuclear power ever did
kittybuckmeow@reddit
I think it's safe if proper protocol, maintenance and safety measures are in place. But as with all things, corners are cut and that's not a corner you want to fuck with.
I don't trust people in charge of our government regulations to keep me safe.
Trolkarlen@reddit
Even the Japanese had problems.
Logical-Mirror5036@reddit
After a very large earthquake. I'm not saying that wasn't an event that should have been planned for. I suspect future construction will take that event into account. But it is also true that events like that are rare.
Trolkarlen@reddit
Good thing the US isn’t on any fautlines.
pdx_mom@reddit
reactors haven't been made like that for a very long time and that was 20 or so years ago...
toaddawet@reddit (OP)
Exactly! Those in power are greedy. If they have the opportunity to cut corners, they will. And some of them are stupid enough to cut corners on something that could be as dangerous as nuclear energy. How can we just shrug our shoulders at that? I understand the safety measures in place are much better now, but is the risk of nuclear style repercussions really worth it? That’s what I struggle with.
Curmudgeonlyhip@reddit
Governments shouldn't build them. Companies with expertise & track record of success should.
tky@reddit
There’s always going to be a counter to any risk, whether it’s nuclear, wind, solar, fossil. The key is managing that risk and making choices that minimize harm while maximizing benefit.
On a per-TWh measure, I would suggest that nuclear has negatively impacted far fewer humans, animals, and the environment writ large than coal & natural gas.
Nuclear has come a long way but suffers from decades of extremely effective propaganda and NIMBYism.
Props to you for asking the question and hearing out the comments!
Astralglamour@reddit
why is the only choice presented fossil fuels v. nuclear as if there arent other widely implemented and fully functional alternatives?
fatrockstar@reddit
Grew up with a nuclear engineer dad. It's cleaner energy and safe. People hear "radiation" and think the worst. Truth is, all the disasters you hear about isn't because of the energy itself - it's mismanagement and cost-cutting by people who shouldn't be making those decisions.
Western-Corner-431@reddit
Who are going to be the people in charge of this endeavor forever. Energy production is a business and that’s it.
fatrockstar@reddit
Can't argue with that.
Trolkarlen@reddit
Wind and solar are far safer, cheaper, and renewable.
OisinDebard@reddit
A wind turbine or a solar farm is much safer and cheaper than a nuclear plant.
A wind farm or enough solar farms to equate to a comparable amount of power from a nuclear plant is NOT safer or cheaper. As far as renewable, that's only true on a very extended timescale - and by the time we reach fusion in the next 40 years or so, wind and solar will be outclassed on every scale.
Trolkarlen@reddit
There isn’t enough uranium to replace fossil fuels.
Zh25_5680@reddit
And will never close the gap
The math doesn’t work to close the gap and be rid of fossil fuels in anything resembling a useful timeframe. Resources for production will hit competition walls (silver, copper, silica, etc), massive land use, etc.
Nuclear in conjunction with wind and solar is the solution for energy needs rolling forward (conjunction being key.. I don’t think for a second we should let up on wind and solar )
We could currently use existing designs for meltdown proof systems, breeder reactors to feed high level nuclear waste over and over again to vastly reduce waste and ensure that we have a complete uninterrupted level of power supply for the world
Trolkarlen@reddit
Fossil fuels run out. Close a strait for a day and the world collapses. Uranium is rare and expensive. It’s has a radioactive decay half life of thousands of years. Nuclear just isn’t the answer.
pdx_mom@reddit
Lol. Yeah you can get solar if the sun is shining and wind (just like everyone else) when the wind is blowing but there are so many issues with them.
Solar panels and wind blades are not recyclable and don't last nearly as long as anyone thinks.
You have to use the electricity as you make it...
tky@reddit
Someday we will come up with technology that allows us to “archive” this energy in a way where we can consume it later. I feel like we are near a breakthrough in this space 🤞🤞
LadyBertramsPug@reddit
This is done now in places with hydroelectric dams. You use the extra electricity from wind turbines to pump water from below the dam to the reservoir above it. Then, when you need power, you release the water through the turbines to generate electricity.
bendingoutward@reddit
Hold on there, Buck Rogers.
rs98101@reddit
Always has been a relatively safe option
Amazing-Mirror-3076@reddit
Forget safe or not - the problem is that it is the most expensive form of electricity.
Oddly enough, renewables - the cheapest form of electricity - makes nuclear even more expensive. Nuclear assumes that it can run continuously - a renewables require power generating to be able to adapt to load - nuclear just can't play in this world.
Agent7619@reddit
More people have died of radiation exposure from coal than radiation exposure from nuclear power.
Astralglamour@reddit
source?
toaddawet@reddit (OP)
I had no idea this was a thing with coal. Thanks for prompting me to read up on it.
TeaMugPatina@reddit
You should look into French nuclear, they have made huge strides in recycling fuel.
Astralglamour@reddit
"The fundamental issue is that reprocessing spent fuel involves extracting plutonium from fuel pellets. (Although the terms “reprocessing” and “recycling” are often used interchangeably, the former refers to separating out the usable material; the latter refers to deploying this material again in a reactor.) And nuclear nonproliferation experts are deeply concerned about any process that makes plutonium more accessible.
The U.S. has had no plan for permanent disposal of high-level radioactive waste since plans for a deep geological repository at Yucca Mountain in Nevada broke down in 2010.
“The most difficult part of making a nuclear weapon is obtaining the material,” said Ross Matzkin-Bridger, senior director of nuclear materials security at the Nuclear Threat Initiative, a nonprofit global security organization. The requisite ingredients — highly enriched uranium, or plutonium in more than trace amounts — are not naturally occurring. “It takes a lot of effort, human-made effort, to actually create these materials,” he said. “So that’s a great thing. But once you have the material, it’s not all that hard [to create a weapon], and that’s a really bad thing.”
Beyond proliferation concerns, there’s a host of other challenges, experts say. New waste streams are created along the way — everything that is touched during reprocessing, such as equipment, gets contaminated. And even after reprocessing, waste remains — the highly radioactive “fission products,” including cesium and strontium. Matzkin-Bridger acknowledged that the concept of recycling has appeal, but he insisted that it was illusory. “Yes, you could go through a very expensive, messy, and unsecure, dangerous process to extract and reuse this material,” he said. “But why would you do it, if it’s messy, it’s dangerous, and you can accomplish the same goals that you’re after by just using more uranium?”
FlatSixFun@reddit
Nuclear power has been safe for at least a couple of decades with modern designs that minimize the waste and are designed so they can't go critical. With the accidents in the previous decades, and decades of anti-nuclear movements, most people haven't caught up to the fact that it's a really safe power solution these days.
deeptut@reddit
Renewable are so much cheaper and faster to build though
OoklaTheMok1994@reddit
Until you figure out storage, wind & solar will never outperform fossil fuel and nuclear.
deeptut@reddit
Damn, if only someone could invent batteries or something similar to store energy
Astralglamour@reddit
yeah I see so many of these people 'nuclear is clean 24/7/365, no risks, so safe!'
none of that is true. Its propaganda from people against renewables, those who want the state to fund massive plants that they will profit off of and control, and the simple minded. Fukushima is not an old plant and look what happened there. people cut corners and make mistakes and because of that nuclear is just not viable. and yes, i know they use it in other countries (and we still use a lot in the US)- that doesnt mean its not flawed tech.
fatrockstar@reddit
All that and can power a LOT with just one tower.
NVJAC@reddit
The younglings will get the next generation of nuclear technology. The joke has always been that fusion (which is how the sun works and has none of the safety risks of fission technology because it's smashing atoms together instead of splitting them) is only 20 years away. But a few years ago, we finally had a fusion test that resulted in more energy coming out than being put in: ‘Breakthrough’ as fusion experiment generates excess energy for the first time | Imperial News | Imperial College London
The French actually were able to keep a fusion reactor going for 22 minutes last year: English Portal - Nuclear fusion: WEST beats the world record for plasma duration!
bcpmoon@reddit
You should not forged that even if you have GAU only every 10000 years, when you run (at the moment) 400 reactors worldwide, you can expect a meltdown every 25 years. There is only one things you need nuclear for: bombs.
Future_Literature_70@reddit
It may be safer these days if everything goes smoothly. But what about terrorist attacks on them, or war? Every time the Zaporizhzhia plant gets attacked in the Russia/Ukraine war, they gamble with a huge catastrophe for Europe, for example.
ablebody_95@reddit
I’m a power systems engineer and have done quite a few control systems for nuclear power plant turbines. Nuclear power is pretty safe these days. There are many many fail safe mechanisms in place. The amount of oversight is astronomical. As another poster said, coal and gas fired power plants have negatively affected far more humans with their emissions, fuel mining, and waste management. Nuclear power has zero emissions. The only issue is the waste of the spent fuel, which can be managed with proper storage. It is not a large volume of waste.
Astralglamour@reddit
The choice is not just fossil fuel plants vs nuclear. Renewables (geothermal, hydro, solar, wind) are superior and easier to deploy. Additionally, they are more democratic instead of one massive power source controlled by a limited number of people. The main issues are transmission and storage- but combining the sources, storage advancements, and a better grid would mitigate the problems. Additionally, nuclear is not a 24/7 power source despite what it's adherents claim. It needs long shut down times for maintenance.
Radioactive waste leaches into groundwater and has in any area where it's been stored.
Apprehensive-Bit1634@reddit
No matter what the innovation or fail safe is it was engineered, built and or designed by a human/s. Humans are not perfect so the innovation and or fail safe will not be perfect. Failure is eminent. The real question shouldn’t be what will we do if it fails. No the question should be what are we going to do when it fails.
DonquiPhish@reddit
Walk towards the reactor
cheesefubar0@reddit
The tech has come a LONG way and is largely safe. Look into the latest generation tech used elsewhere in the world and you’ll see.
Roofofcar@reddit
This is an absolute fact.
The latest designs are as close to “fail safe” as we possibly can make them.
The only thing I’ll add, as an electronic engineer who has worked in power distribution safety, is that Fukushima melted down not because it was unsafe on the nuclear side, but that the auxiliary power systems failed.
Modern fail safe systems avoid this specific failure state in several ways, but few to none of them factor in a 7.0 earthquake or large tsunami into the safe margin of operation.
This is to say that in my semi educated opinion, nuclear power can still fail in a way that exposes the public to radioactive byproducts, and people need to be educated about how much less dangerous even these extreme outcomes can be.
Coal and gas power plants cause pollutants that kill people every year. Also, some future nuclear plants will fail in a black swan event and lead to, say, 1000 people getting a slightly increased risk of cancer. (Remember living near a coal power plant increases the risk of all forms of cancer)
Finally, I personally support widespread solar and wind power. They are easier to permit, therefore more likely to be built. If local power storage can be purchased, enhanced grid resiliency becomes a massive benefit. Dozens of islands of independent power production are superior to, yet should coexist with, nuclear large scale reactors.
Astralglamour@reddit
Nuclear is a zero mistake technology, and unduly sensitive to things that cannot be stopped or avoided like earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, and floods. It takes massive amounts of resources to bring a nuclear plant online, negativing its nebulous 'green' designation (purely granted because it lacks GHG emissions when operation), because the carbon debt in building a plant is immense. The fact that we still, after many decades, do not know what to do with nuclear waste is another huge problem. the oil industry is now gung ho on nuclear plants because they are being used as a reason to not invest in extant renewable technologies (invest in nuclear instead!) and they have plans to use SMR in their oil fields for fracking.
Roofofcar@reddit
I’d argue that we have found essentially the perfect destination for nuclear waste in Yucca Mountain. It was a poor decision to stop that project after finding such an ideal location.
Rather, we have dozens of individual sites storing water material in various stages of security. Some use unhardened light structures to cover dangerous materials that could be dispersed in the atmosphere with a single drone bomb.
Astralglamour@reddit
No one wants a bunch of nuclear waste leaching into their groundwater and I dont blame them. I live near a govt lab that and radioactive plumes have been found in the groundwater. I trust a private business running a nuclear plant even less.
Realistic-Number-919@reddit
Nuclear power is like aviation. You think of the disasters of history, but don’t realize that modern commercial planes and nuclear power plants are (generally) now far safer than their alternatives.
No-Reward8036@reddit
It can never be safe. We can never be rid of it. You may think a meltdown can't happen, but it can. There is no way to make it utterly foolproof. I also remember Chernobyl and its scary that the shield over it was hit and damaged by a Russian drone. Nobody is talking about that, are they?
Japan also thought there could be no meltdowns, until they were hit by a tsunami. Look what happened there. No thanks, I don't want nuclear anything.
Naive_Product_5916@reddit
yes, I’m absolutely flabbergasted every time nuclear is brought up. Everything you mentioned. But at the very least, the waste. I'm from a state that still can’t find out where to put nuclear way safely.
TheSwedishEagle@reddit
Nuclear is safe but I think the advances in solar will render it unnecessary in sunny climates.
OoklaTheMok1994@reddit
You could make solar a thousand times better and it still wouldn't outperform fossil fuel, hydro, or nuclear until you solve the storage problem.
TheSwedishEagle@reddit
You may have heard of a battery.
deeptut@reddit
Safe until they're not.
Fukushima send regards.
OoklaTheMok1994@reddit
Only one known fatality from Fukushima radiation exposure.
deeptut@reddit
How many billions spent since the incident? How many billions will be spent the next 100 years?
PutridWorth938@reddit
Basically, the way Chernobyl reactor works, the fuel "drops" into the reaction chamber... The problem was they were running a test that got out of hand and it ran amok... Modern reactors basically push up from the bottom, and if everything goes awry, the carbon control rods fall down, slowing down the reaction, so it won't melt down.
The most dangerous part is disposing of the spent fuel rods...
moopet@reddit
The type of reactor that could have that type of meltdown was old even last century.
Able_Original_486@reddit
Renewable energy currently does not have the ability to replace the base power needs. It can absolutely be part of the grid, but it can't yet meet the base needs. Nuclear power can and it's clean*, but it is really expensive to build.
Three Mile Island was the worst nuclear disaster in the United States and has had no detectable health effects on the public or workers. It was scary when it happened, but wasn't nearly the disaster it seemed.
Otherwise, don't put your nuclear reactors in a tsunami zone. And don't build them in the Soviet Union.
*Steam is what's emitted into the atmosphere. There is the spent fuel to be dealt with, but that can be stored safely.
jinxdeluxe@reddit
Renewable energy just needs storage to go with it. And stuff like Hydroelectricity is it's own storage already. If you put wind, solar and water all together with a smart grid and big storage capabilities - you've got this solved. Hell, the whole of iceland runs on geothermal energy and hydropower. They can't even have wind or solar in winter and even they figured it out without nuclear.
Problem is always cost. Modern nuclear energy is indeed pretty safe compared to what's been build 50 years ago, but at a huge cost. It's simply not competitive. And that even before we come to the problem of nuclear waste. So yeah it's pretty much true. Nuclear energy is a lot safer now. It's also a hell of a lot more expensive by kW/h.
spintool1995@reddit
I guess we should all just live on volcanos.
jinxdeluxe@reddit
Well, we all live on a ball of melted Iron on it's small hardened crust hurling around a big nuclear ball of fire and plasma in space - just that some of us have extra warm feet.
BmanGorilla@reddit
Nuclear power has always been the safest if you are a believer in statistics.
The only reason it’s considered dangerous is because of the knuckleheads that put fear and emotion over logic.
Mendonesiac@reddit
according to some younger nuclear advocates I've come across, solar can be more dangerous than nuclear because of all the mining. When I point out that uranium also requires mining, as does all the concrete that goes into cooling towers, etc they say I need to do more research
spintool1995@reddit
The amount of mining per MWHr produced is much smaller for nuclear.
vistaculo@reddit
Chernobyl and Three Mile Island were both caused by massive human fuckups. Fukushima was the result of a natural disaster that could have been avoided with what we know now.
It is the safest form of energy so long as penny pinching capitalist greed doesn’t put us in an unsafe situation…
spintool1995@reddit
Chernobyl is the only one with significant deaths because the Soviets didn't bother with an effective containment system. Three Mile Island melted down and was contained. Fukushima was mostly contained, at least long enough to evacuate the area and even then the breech was minor.
BmanGorilla@reddit
The soviets were also in denial that the the failure had even happened, wasting lots and lots of time. It was a perfect storm of stupid.
nrauhauser@reddit
Nuclear power harms against climate harm in 2000 would have been a no-brainer. Chernobyl was still pretty fresh.
Look around in 2026, even after Fukushima.
OK, give it another twelve months, look at the next El Niño's score next spring.
Well designed, well regulated reactors that MIGHT cause trouble are less scary than fossil fuels that ARE causing trouble.
And the big hope here is companies like Helion and Commonwealth Fusion Systems are about to open the fusion cornucopia. Power without carbon exhumation, power without waste, power without even using a lot of cooling water.
I hope that some combination of physicists and AI gets it done, because there's nothing much in our future without a profound, immediate change.
DeadZooDude@reddit
When you compare deaths from carbon based energy (mainly linked to air pollution, but extreme climate event related deaths should really also be considered too) then nuclear is much safer. Not sure it's safer than renewables, but they all come with some issues.
Radiant_Client_1846@reddit
Where does 2011 Fukushima fit into this conversation? I genuinely don't know, but the radioactive shrimp recall made me think of that incident.
OoklaTheMok1994@reddit
According to the Google there is one known fatality from radiation exposure at Fukushima (lung cancer).
Otherwise, considering the tsunami, the safety measures performed amazingly well.
pinkrobot420@reddit
Fukushima is the same as the nuclear power plant in Lower Alloways, NJ.
OoklaTheMok1994@reddit
We were heavily propagandized as kids.
Nuclear power is safe and the US political class are idiots for not allowing it to flourish here, especially the climate change nutjobs.
RPMiller2k@reddit
Go look up Kyle Hill on YouTube. You'll learn so much about modern nuclear energy and clean it all the propaganda that you grew up with that was coming from the oil and coal industries. Which have caused more deaths than nuclear ever has.
oldg17@reddit
What we learned as Genx around nuclear wast mostly propaganda. What we learned in total was mostly propaganda.
StG4Ever@reddit
Life is thriving in the dead zone around Tchernobyl. There are even people there who refused to leave and still live there. Makes me wonder if all the cancers people get aren’t from other reasons like smoking, alcohol, sugar, pfas…
majeric@reddit
Well, if we could get Thorium reactors up and running, they would be amazing.
Got_Bent@reddit
Edman70@reddit
Nuclear, done right, is currently the safest and cleanest non-renewable source of power known to humans.
NovelGoddess@reddit
Agree...but the done right part seems to be the costly part where corners get cut, as was one of the problems with Chernobyl.
Edman70@reddit
Chernobyl had MANY problems, cut ALL the corners, and was tech the US designed and refused to use. Not even Three Mile Island was within a country mile of the failure Chernobyl was from the first draft.
Modern nuclear uses different and safer fuels, the spent fuel can be recycled, and the safety measures are unparalleled.
I voted against a data center in my city last month. I wouldn’t vote against a good nuclear reactor.
chtakes@reddit
Nuclear safety protocol #1: Do not have your reactor built by the Soviet Union. Avoid Soviet computers, sensors and operators.
AnchorScud@reddit
i surprised to be the first to bring up TMI. i had family run away from their power source.
fatrockstar@reddit
I watched the TMI documentary on Netflix with my retired nuclear engineer dad. He paused it so many times to explain why it was wrong I eventually told him we didn't have to watch it anymore, I'll get us some Diet Cokes and he can just tell me what happened.
ByronScottJones@reddit
TMI did not release a dangerous amount of radiation. It was a relatively minor gas venting, which quickly dispersed and was no threat to safety. An average coal burning power plant releases more radiation into the atmosphere in a month that TMI did, or ever will.
shitty_advice_BDD@reddit
They always say safest and cleanest and im over here like yo wtf
toaddawet@reddit (OP)
Exactly! I’m like how can something that puts out waste products that are deadly to human human beings and have to be buried in the crown for thousands of years be “safe”?
TLKimball@reddit
As opposed to fossil fuel burning power plants that put waste dangerous to humans into the air?
shitty_advice_BDD@reddit
The problem is wear do you put the nuclear waste. It has to go somewhere. Whereas could could force fuel burning power plants co2 scrubbers to fix that but no one seems to want to do that.
RustyAndEddies@reddit
Where do you put coal ash slurry that will never ever get into groundwater? Where do you put coal dust where it never gets into miner’s lungs causes Pneumoconiosis? Where do you put all that coal industry donor money that keep popping up as the EPA, Clean Water and Clean Air act are being systematically dismantled because burning coal without expensive particulate capture is more important that asthma clusters in poor communities near plants?
There is no free lunch. There is only entropy and harm mitigation. Nuclear power doesn’t throw toxic shit into the air on top of creating greenhouse gases.
shitty_advice_BDD@reddit
Put it in barrels 10 miles underground next to the nuclear waste.
RustyAndEddies@reddit
A single uranium fuel pellet (~0.5 inches) produces the same energy as 1 ton of coal or 149 gallons of oil. The scale of waste from coal ash isn’t exponentially more, it logarithmic.
TLKimball@reddit
You put it 10 miles underground in concrete filled stainless steel barrels.
RustyAndEddies@reddit
At least you can contain nuclear waste, put it in a barrel and bury it on bedrock. No way it’s getting into groundwater or going airborne unless by malice.
Coal waste however is stored in open pits with a liner. We’ve had coal ash slurry breach. We’ve had train derailments carrying coal plant waste that went straight into rivers.
Without technology to capture and sequester, greenhouse gases will outlast the half-life of Plutonium-239
omibus@reddit
Chernobyl was a piece of shit even by Russian standards. They essentially had no shielding. Every. So many safety protocols were skipped because the USSR was essentially broke when they built it.
3 Mile Island: no reported deaths or illnesses.
Fukushima: no deaths, no reported anomalies. With this one, they side stepped some warnings and made some strategic design errors. It was totally avoidable. Couple people died from being trampled as everyone was rushing out.
Key thing is still effective oversight and regulations. The waste is a problem, but really not as big as you would expect. Especially if we could set up a recycling reactor (you can build reactors to use spent fuel).
Key idea is also “clean”. Nuclear is very clean as an energy source. We can also f’ing uranium everywhere (in small quantities).
Another advancement we have now is mini-reactors. So space isn’t as big of an issue.
What would be cool is if we could retrofit coal plants to become nuclear plants. Unfortunately, coal plant sites are too radioactive for that to be allowed.
Another fact: there are more illnesses reported from people living next to oil refineries than from people living near nuclear plants.
deeptut@reddit
How many illnesses reported from people living next to wind mills and solar farms?
doug123reddit@reddit
Nuclear is not “safest.” No windmills or solar cells or hydroelectric etc. are going to cause a Fukushima costing hundreds of billions to remediate and unknown health effects from discharges. None of these result in thousand-year waste. Now, granted that nuclear might be most practical or cost effective in certain scenarios, but don’t oversell it as safest, or downplay its many cost overruns. Every accident is a surprise, and there will be more of them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_reactor_accidents_in_the_United_States
deeptut@reddit
How dare you telling facts against nuclear power?
kirabug37@reddit
Actually, best way I can describe it is that nuclear power is so safe that I use the towers as a weather rock.
archive.kirabug.com/20060708/been-doing-this-half-my-life/
discoprince79@reddit
Renewable is so much better and noone has to mine uranium.
deeptut@reddit
...and store the radioactive waste
Gullible-Apricot3379@reddit
I would argue that wind, solar, hydro, and geothermal is safer, and I wish we were putting more into making storage more viable. But comparing nuclear to coal, for example— I think nuclear, with the right precautions, is safer.
Nuclear disasters are extremely rare, especially compared to the carcinogenic pollutants that coal belches out. I have no idea how it compares to natural gas (tbh, I have a hard time trusting much from anyone about the energy sector, though I do buy that coal is particularly bad).
As I understand it, there’s basically the risk of being impacted by the actual explosion/event which is probably a larger radius than a fossil fuel plant but still relatively small. Then there’s the elevated cancer risk, which is on the same scale as other environmental mismanagement at a local level. Then there’s the dispersed carcinogens which elevate the risk of cancer, but there are lifestyle choices that are actually worse (like smoking).
Bottom line, I kind of think most of us GenXers grew up in a world that was at peak paranoia about nuclear annihilation, but we were really still kids when the threat moved to terrorism. That isn’t necessarily a recipe for nuanced understanding of the risks and benefits of nuclear power plants.
Cross_22@reddit
Living in Europe I remember we were closely monitoring the weather patterns after the Chernobyl disaster. Also putting spent nuclear fuel underground so it's out of sight - out of mind made us uneasy.
Just like you I was shocked when I first heard younger people claiming that nuclear is a great option now. I don't have enough insight into whether things have substantially improved, or if that's just energy lobbyists pushing their narrative via younger people who lacked that experience.
Aumpa@reddit
Even if the safety mechanisms that we have complete control of are 100% safe, there are things we don't have complete control of, like intentional targeted attack.
Soylent_Milk2021@reddit
You can say the same for anything. A targeted attack on any hydroelectric plant could kill thousands. Can’t live in fear forever. And, maybe, just maybe, if we didn’t go around pissing the worst of the worst off in the world, we wouldn’t need to live in so much fear.
Ok-Acanthisitta-5451@reddit
Ding, ding, ding!
KINGofFemaleOrgasms@reddit
Remember the tounge chart that had 'sweet' 'sour' 'salty' 'bitter'? Remember us finding out that it was complete bullshit?
Propaganda is not science
kirabug37@reddit
It’s true. I live down the road from a nuclear power plant in Pennsylvania and I have a much higher chance of dying from a tornado or a hurricane than I do the power plant.
AnchorScud@reddit
that's because it currently is not melting down.
kirabug37@reddit
Ok but the nuclear power plant can take a hit from a tornado and a hurricane at the same time better than my house can so the meltdown chances are pretty low. We learned our lessons at three mile island down the road the other way.
VelvetElvis@reddit
It's better to risk making a small area of the earth uninhabitable than to maintain the whole planet uninhabitable.
Risks can be minimized by never cutting corners, ever. Chernobyl cut so many corners it was practically round.
There's are much safer designs. It's impossible for a pebble bed reactor to melt down but the tradeoff is a higher volume of waste.
Most of the plants in use today are scaled up vversions of what's used in aircraft carriers. The designs are 50+ years old.
One consideration is the US no longer has the manufacturing ability to make a reactor vessel. We'd have to pay a Japanese company to make it. The America First people wouldn't love that.
ThatHellacopterGuy@reddit
It always was… when designed intelligently, built to spec, and run within the operating parameters.
LadyBertramsPug@reddit
As always, the devil is in the details.
billFoldDog@reddit
The US designed reactors become rapidly less reactive if they overheat. This is known as "negative reactivity coefficients" and if you don't have it your design doesn't get approved.
the US has had multiple mishaps at reactors and only three mile island came close to a real disaster. The others tend to be a puff of steam and the reactor shuts off.
Source: I was once a professional in this space.
trelene@reddit
I'm actually surprised there's not more people talking about three mile island, because that would fit in the sub. I recall the news coverage was pretty scary, but I'm also going to trust you on the overall safety.
denvergardener@reddit
Lots of phobia and misinformation in the comments here.
Nuclear power is safe and sustainable and will likely be the main power source once fossil fuels do eventually run out.
Of course the disasters were terrible but they were preventable and mismanaged. The real problem is when it is run in a for-profit scheme. We as a society need to take the profit motive out of energy completely and it will help mitigate the damage from all energy forms.
blooobolt@reddit
Yes, it's very safe.
Helleboredom@reddit
People have romanticized the idea of nuclear power, IMO. But it really doesn’t matter - either way our government is too inept to build any new nuclear plants at this time.
toaddawet@reddit (OP)
That’s what I’m afraid of. Propaganda can go both ways, and there are always competing interests that want to convince people one way or another. Saf-er by comparison does not make radioactivity suddenly healthy just because there are no better options right now.
VinceP312@reddit
It's so much safer than 1980s.
Is been FORTY YEARS.
oldirishfart@reddit
Fukushima
bendingoutward@reddit
Gesundheit.
Quirky_Commission_56@reddit
The safest option has never been nuclear power. The safest options are wind and solar power. Three Mile Island is still considered radioactive and that occurred when I was four years old, and I’m currently 50. And we all remember Chernobyl.
Flaky-Debate-833@reddit
Every submarine in the Navy is nuclear powered.
pdx_mom@reddit
it's pretty safe all things considered. It's super 'clean' (carbon free) and it has been used all over the world for 80 years or so -- and the construction (outside the US) has been streamlined and so the accidents are almost never happening at all (chernobyl was in the 80s -- and the japan issues aren't the issues with other reactors that are not made the same way).
So yes, it's the best we have. Unfortunately the message out there is that it is not.
oldirishfart@reddit
How is it clean with all the nuclear waste that has to be dealt with?
wyohman@reddit
After reading many of the highly inaccurate responses, I highly recommend the Wikipedia article on nuclear power in the US. It provides a large amount of info on existing plants, accidents, and a large amount of nuclear related data.
Ok_Entrepreneur_8509@reddit
The anti-nuclear weapons rehtoric got all mixed up with the power applications during the cold war. One of the biggest sources of this confusion was the fact that the US built a bunch of power plants that were actually breeder plants to make bomb fuel.
It has always been a good solution, despite the couple of significant incidents. It is even better and safer now than it was in the 80s.
Dunno_If_I_Won@reddit
There are costs, physical dangers, and benefits to all man made/processed fuel sources. On balance, nuclear is fine.
science_nerdd@reddit
I am 54 (so same boat as you). Fukushima happened 2011, not as catastrophic as Chernobyl, but still pretty bad. With all that said, those are the only 2 major nuclear catastrophes since the 50s (when we started nuclear reactors). There have been 33 notable incidents (resulting in at least 1 death) and a total of 100 incidents (not all of which resulted in deaths) around the world. So pretty safe all-in-all.
Deciheximal144@reddit
Fukushima still can't be shut off, it just has to keep being cooled. We're now dumping radioactive water in the Pacific, because Japan didn't want to pay to build more and more tanks to store it. The surrounding countries complained the most, but they didn't volunteer to pay, either.
Now, that's highly diluted, so they tell us that doesn't matter as far as radioactivity goes. Maybe after it finally shuts down, we'll be due for another Fukushima, and those decades and that radioactive water won't matter, either.
Nuclear waste can be stored small, but that doesn't account for the space the cooling pools take for the first few years. And nobody wants it driven by their house, so people lobby their representatives to prevent that, and it stays put, far from whatever safe place is planned for it.
Thorium is more promising than uranium, since it converts to uranium but that isotope decays differently, and reduces the risk of nuclear proliferation and amount of long term waste. Thorium processing is more expensive, however.
Boring-Rub-3570@reddit
I've been to Chernobyl. You're right. It'll take 24,000 years to be inhabitable. The soil was still highly radioactive and when you dropped something, it had to stay there. No picking up.
Although I'm not an expert and don't know details, I read somewhere that new generation of nuclear reactors had fail-safe mechanisms, which prevented even deliberate attempts of sabotage.
However, it is currently the most expensive method of electricity production, partly due to the issues, related to waste management and decommissioning expenses of the power plants.
I don't think it's ideal, but it's what we've got. At least until commercialization of fusion power.
toaddawet@reddit (OP)
You are a brave person! Though I am fascinated with Chernobyl and the effects it had, I would not set foot there. I appreciate your perspective on it being the best we have. I guess I just feel like if the best we have is something that has the potential for these kinds of effects, let’s look at option #2!
catcrapmakesmevomit@reddit
3 mile island? Anyone? They are reopening it in 2027.
Agent7619@reddit
The amount of radiation released by TMI was statistically insignificant. A single medical x-ray is approximately six times more than anyone was exposed to.
Reader47b@reddit
Yes, this generation if free of the anti-nuclear propaganda we were constantly bombarded with and so can acknowledge that nuclear power is a cleaner, safer option than many other power options.
MhojoRisin@reddit
Also, I think we’re more aware of the costs and risks of current energy sources. So it’s not a choice between “nuclear risk” and “no risk.” It’s a cost/benefit analysis no matter what choice you make.
Desert_Humidity@reddit
Nuclear power is safer then it was, and doesn't emit greenhouse gasses. SMRs are coming, the first one is being built by terrapower in Wyoming i think. We will see them all over in the next decade or so. Does it have risk, sure everything has risk.
Logical-Mirror5036@reddit
In Kemerer, Wyoming.
RetroBerner@reddit
I remember the Chernobyl fallout since I was living in Germany at the time, no thanks. Sure, newer reactors are safer and more efficient, but people still make mistakes and natural disasters happen all the time.
You wouldn't get an X-Ray without protection, so how do you feel safe from nuclear fallout? My biggest gripe is the nuclear waste though, they still aren't dealing with it after decades of plans falling through. They say they can bury it, but nobody wants it buried in their backyard.
toaddawet@reddit (OP)
This is a major issue I have concerns about. “ oh, it’s fine. Just bury it“ does not seem like an effective, safe solution to lethal waste that won’t be a alert until thousands of years from now. How are we OK with that?
Old_Till2431@reddit
Until we can harness "antimatter " like star trek...its probably the lesser of many evils 🤷🏽♂️🤷🏽♂️🤷🏽♂️
gameraturtle@reddit
The problem is that dilithium on earth is not the same as in the Star Trek universe. We need the crystal-like variety, not the sad gaseous stuff we have here at home.
HighBiased@reddit
The technology has vastly improved. The risks are way less than they used to be. Still a risk. And it is waaaaaaaay less toxic than the oil our world runs on which kills us slowly every day. Even compared to general toxic waste.
So while nuclear accidents have the drama of being easy to see the danger, it's nothing compared to all the ways Oil/Petroleum production, usage, and waste harm kill millions in a ton of non-obvious ways, and destroy the planet.
Obviously solar is ideal, wind is pretty good. But nothing beats nuclear power for efficiency and cost.
And I'm speaking as someone who grew up in one of the first "nuclear free" zones and was very much anti-nuclear
happycj@reddit
Yep. Turns out that taking power plants intended for submarines and putting them on land was a Bad Idea(tm), and when you build them properly for their location, they are safe!
The key thing is what happens when things don’t go right. In a properly designed power plants, the fuel rods are suspended and if anything goes wrong they DROP/FALL into the neutralizing bath, instead of being exposed to the air.
A submarine is surrounded by water, so they had their drenching bath all around them. Building on land? Not so much! So when the parts are rearranged for land-based design, they are safe to operate and work well.
The waste? Yeah, that’s still an issue, but we actual have commercial uses for the “waste” nowadays, that also reduces the toxicity and makes the waste simpler to handle in a safe manner.
It’s a whole new world out there.
1Steelghost1@reddit
GetBAK1@reddit
It’s been the safest for a very long time. Chernobyl was a stupid plant that was never designed for power generation and failed in a stupid way. Fukushima did fail, after being hit by one of the largest earthquakes and tsunami’s in modern history. Safe to say that was a bit of a fluke.
Hungry-Treacle8493@reddit
Yes, your co-workers are correct. The newer generation designs are far, far safer. Obviously, nothing is perfect, but modern designs really don’t have the “meltdown” risk for several different reasons ranging from physical plant designs, use of different materials, and using natural physical traits as fail safe elements.
department of energy resource
UncleSoOOom@reddit
People got much stupider (both generally, and specifically in STEM and operation complex machinery/systems) since Chernobyl. It does not take a nuclear reactor meltdown anymore to cause a similar scale or bigger disaster during regular (mis)operation of just anything.
El_Peregrine@reddit
New nuclear power technology is significantly safer.
If we “discovered” nuclear power today, it would rightly be seen as the greenest solution to world wide energy demand.
gameraturtle@reddit
Like most people have said, nuclear is one of the safer options. Unfortunately, lots of people fell for the fear mongering. There was this period of “nuclear is bad” that went on for way too long.
ShadowyTreeline@reddit
AIUI, the new generation of nuke plants are actually safer. I also question the sincerity of the anti-nuke movement back in the day -whether there were ulterior political motives - given what I've learned about politics in recent years.
18ekko@reddit
Over 600 nuclear power plants have been built. Over 400 are currently in operation, and you have heard of every single problem: Chernobyl, Fukushima and 3 mile island. Statistically, it is orders of magnitude safer than coal, gas and other plants.
https://earth.org/nuclear-which-is-the-safest-energy-source/
I mean, we have one public electric utility that continues to cause thousands of acres of forest fires every year, and burned down several towns.
user86753092@reddit
Three Mile Island?
4estGimp@reddit
Read up about thorium salt reactors. Also, you might enjoy the documentary, "Pandora's Promise".
honey-squirrel@reddit
We grew up at the peak of the Cold War, worried about the likelihood of a near winter in our future. The movie War Games and the Day After. We remember Chernobyl and the Fukushima disasters. We know the dangers of meltdowns and radioactive waste.
When we were kids we only worried about the USSR. Now nine countries in the world possess nuclear weapons. Together, that's an estimated 12,100 to 12,500 nuclear warheads.
I also do not understand how people now advocate for nuclear energy and how everyone has just given up on pushing for nuclear disarmament.
Capital-Tip-7890@reddit
From what I've seen if the new reactor designs they are incredibly safe. You're exposed to more radiation in your day to day life than in a nuclear power plant.
knowlessman@reddit
Yeah nuclear power has always been relatively safe, even counting Chernobyl.
Skatchbro@reddit
It’s safe. The Chernobyl reactor was a shitty Soviet design, exacerbated by some really stupid decisions a the part of the crew on duty at the time.
Training-Purple-5220@reddit
Always has been. The lesson of Chernobyl is not “nuclear bad!” but “Soviets are too dumb to safely boil water.”
Gloomy_Narwhal_4833@reddit
It is far safer that it was 40+ years ago. There are quite a few interesting YouTube videos about it. Had Chernobyl and 3 mile island not happened, it would be way more prevalent, and we wouldn't be as dependant on fossil fuels.
Novel_Librarian_6828@reddit
Consider the difference in the technology behind cars in the last 40-50 years. Nuclear technology has changed a lot, and we need something that is carbon neutral.
inode71@reddit
A LOT has changed since Chernobyl was designed in the 1960s.
NeverEverMaybe0_0@reddit
There has never been a nuclear reactor in the USA that could in any way fail the way Chernobyl did. The very few graphite moderated reactors that we did build were much smaller.
Power reactors use water as a moderator, and if you get so hot that the water turns to steam the fission reaction stops. Control rods are usually made of cadmium and do not have graphite tips that actually boost the fission reaction before the rest of the rod comes in to shut it down; that was a really stupid idea on someone's part in the Soviet Union.
The worst failure we had in my opinion was SL-1, and that was pretty well contained in its containment building that wasn't designed to be a containment building.
IRadiateYou1999@reddit
I studied Chernobyl and nuclear power plant design in my Nuclear Medicine program. Not super in depth but enough to accept that modern nuclear power plants are way more reliable and safer than Chernobyl ever was. Are they still a risk from natural disasters and man made calamity? yes. Is it probably going to be part of the future power solution? I think so.
Nuclear_N@reddit
Anything can happen, but I agree that it is safe.