Initiating a go-around with another plane on the RWY
Posted by Ok_Big_3300@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 37 comments
Howdy. The scenario: TWR has cleared someone (a heavy) for takeoff. They are trying to squeeze this aircraft in before you land. You are the landing jet coming in at 150kts on a two mile final. It is daylight out and you see the heavy in front of you has not begun their takeoff roll so you decide to go around. When you key up are you saying, “XYZ123 going around,” and then wait for your HDG and ALT assignment or do you initiate a turn any which way is clear of traffic?
You obviously wouldnt follow the MAP because you dont want to overtake the plane that was just given clearance to depart. But this scenario is also in congested airspace.
Hope this makes sense. Thanks
EmergencyTime2859@reddit
Tower controller here and I absolutely do NOT want you turning any direction without me telling you. You dont know where the other planes are and you also dont know where this departure is going. But I do. Why would you guess? You guessing could just makes things worse. You saying "hey tower I'm going around" and my response is probably a small number of seconds apart just wait the tiny amount of time it takes for me to tell you what to do
Kitsune_Volpe@reddit
Absolutely! The workload as PIC goes up tenfold during a go-around (not to mention being stressed out most of the time bc it's an extenuating circumstance) so my focus is entirely on flying the plane and I'll trust TWR and CRM to guide me through the rest.
allaboutthosevibes@reddit
I have a similar question but imagine that the heavy is already doing its takeoff roll, but you feel like it’s a bit “too close for comfort.” At what point do you decide to go around and if the controller doesn’t instantly get back to both you and the heavy with opposing vectors, I could easily see the airspace conflicting, and fast.
Also, how can a plane really be cleared to land while another one is still cleared to takeoff on the same runway? Isn’t the go-around clearance (that automatically comes with landing clearance) at some point intersecting the taking off plane’s clearance?
YugeWaterBottle@reddit
Try turning on your own at any major airport and see what happens.
RustyPlastics@reddit
Do not change anything. Fly standard missed approach and wait for ATC instructions.
Pseudo-Jonathan@reddit
If anyone does this they should have their license thrown in the river. Under no circumstances should you do this. Let the controller give you traffic avoidance vectors. He's the one who knows the big picture, not you.
MehCFI@reddit
Good lord why would you turn or change altitude outside of a tower assignment or approach clearance?
Avoid the traffic you can see instead of turning into the traffic you can’t see.
DCS_Sport@reddit
Sure living up to your name by chastising someone for asking a question.
MehCFI@reddit
OPs flair says ATP. OP should have demonstrated significant knowledge through a long series of checkrides and training and know this answer
Ok_Big_3300@reddit (OP)
Thats exactly what i want to know. Im at the airlines and someone sent me a link to a video of this exact scenario between air india and delta
Adventurous-Ad8219@reddit
If I'm 2 miles out doing 150 KT, I'm going fast enough that I'm going to be at the runway in a little less than a minute. Only one of 2 things is really happening with regards to the heavy on the runway:
The heavy jet is already rolling and will be gone by the time in at the thereshold
The heavy jet hasn't started rolling yet, go around and fly the published missed or follow tower instructions
If I'm going around, I'm starting from 200 feet above the runway and climbing while the other jet is starting its climb from 0 feet and a mile beyond where I started mine. We aren't really on a collision course as is
randombrain@reddit
To be very clear about the scenario: You are initiating a go-around for when you are on a two-mile final?
The best way to do that is: Don't do that.
Yeah, if there's a heavy in position and they haven't started rolling when you're on a two-mile final then you can expect a go-around instruction pretty soon. Expect it. Don't do it.
If you get to a one-mile final and the traffic isn't moving then I would say you're justified in initiating the go-around on your own. If you're VMC, maybe offset just a little bit? If you're comfortable doing that. Otherwise, start the MAP but keep an eye on the traffic and yes, expect a heading and altitude that should be issued almost immediately.
And as a final note, not as relevant when you're flying jets but possibly relevant for others reading this: It is not always true that the runway needs to "be clear" in order to land. If both aircraft involved are single- or twin-engine props, we can legally have #2 landing on the runway as long as #1 is either 3000' or 4500' from the threshold. And for departures, even if jets are involved the minimum distance is "6000 and airborne." Not "beyond the departure end of the runway."
alexinedh@reddit
Tower controller and CFII here. If you want to go around, go around. But you’re in controlled airspace, the last thing you should be doing is turning on your own. If they’re on the ground still what are you worried about, a heavy jet out climbing you?
It may take a couple seconds for, say a class D tower, to call approach, announce your go around and ask for a heading, then relay that heading to you, but in the meantime you have a higher airspeed than a heavy that hasn’t departed, a faster climb rate than a heavy that hasn’t departed, and you’re climbing further away from that jet every second.
Don’t panic, let controllers control
PilotBurner44@reddit
You absolutely should be following the missed approach procedure unless you are on a visual approach, have received alternate instructions from ATC, or are following RA guidance, which shouldn't be lateral anyway. You're not just cowboy-ing it through controlled airspace, turning whatever way you decide, that's how bad things happen.
I've had several go-arounds because traffic is not clear of the runway, and they have all been initiated by ATC. At 2 miles, there's still plenty of time for them to clear the way.
FlowerGeneral2576@reddit
Why would you not follow the MAP? Don’t you think the designers of the MAP thought of this exact scenario when they made it?
randombrain@reddit
Because the designers likely did NOT take into account the traffic flows and other aircraft operating in the vicinity of the towered airport. The published missed is very often designed for a one-in-one-out scenario that simply is not realistic at a towered airport.
Tons of airports have a missed approach that turns back around and goes straight up the final approach fix. Even an RNAV "straight out to hold at the IAF for the reciprocal approach" usually isn't the best thing for our traffic patterns.
As an immediate and very short-term thing to do, yeah, you can begin flying the published missed. But you should be expecting that the tower controller will issue a heading and altitude to maintain before you get to the departure end of the runway.
x4457@reddit
What is the missed approach procedure for a visual approach?
Guysmiley777@reddit
"Don't hit anybody!"
ithrewakidinthewell@reddit
An airport near me specifies to follow the ILS missed approach if no other instructions are given on a visual, but apart from that there isn’t one
mateenxxx@reddit
That is a good question…. anyone got an answer for that ? Lol
EmergencyTime2859@reddit
The real world answer is at a towered field tell tower you're going around and wait for instructions dont just start doing things on your own
x4457@reddit
(There isn't one.)
looper741@reddit
The AIM covers this.
Section 5-4-23(e):
A visual approach is not an IAP and therefore has no missed approach segment. If a go-around is necessary for any reason, aircraft operating at controlled airports will be issued an appropriate advisory/clearance/instruction by the tower. At uncontrolled airports, aircraft are expected to remain clear of clouds and complete a landing as soon as possible. If a landing cannot be accomplished, the aircraft is expected to remain clear of clouds and contact ATC as soon as possible for further clearance. Separation from other IFR aircraft will be maintained under these circumstances
x4457@reddit
So in other words, there isn't one.
looper741@reddit
Exactly
Purgent@reddit
Whatever tower tells you after you initiate the go around.
x4457@reddit
We're really close to connecting dots here...
EmergencyTime2859@reddit
Here's a question for you. My tower is a regional airport with no SIDs or STARs but double digit daily airline large operations and occasionally random heavy military operations. As a tower controller for runway 10 I can issue any heading off the runway between 080 and 150. The Missed for the ILS 10 has you flying a heading 140 initially.
Do you think the charting people accounted for this scenario at my tower? If you fly the MAP and I issue the heavy a heading of 150, or even a 140 which I'm allowed to to do, what now? Now you both are flying the same direction basically on top of each other.
In OPs case if I had issued the heavy a heading of 150 on departure I would want them either runway heading or north of runway so they're going opposite directions. If OP flew the published missed they would make things worse IMO
randombrain@reddit
Yeah, pilots give the published missed waaaay more deference than it deserves from an ATC point of view. Outside of bigger airports (especially if they have parallel runways) the published missed really only works in a non-radar one-in-one-out scenario. Absent really serious terrain considerations, we as ATC are going to be giving a heading and altitude almost every time.
BChips71@reddit
In reality, tower will know before you key up because:
1) They are watching the separation and probably anticipating a go around and,
2) Since you are aviating and navigating before you are communicating... they'll see you going around.
Side question...
Why are you going around 2 miles out? In SAN, they can get spit out 7 departures during that 2 miles. ;)
Ok-Money2811@reddit
I’m waiting for an instruction which will likely come, however, I’m not waiting for another airplane to become a collision hazard.
If the instruction doesn’t come by the time of my comfort running out that I don’t have an out from the situation, I’m making my own instruction in the safest direction I see fit with an emergency declaration if they want it.
nightlanding@reddit
When this exact thing happened to me, but a lot closer than 2 miles, I said "Nxxx going around" and had tower instructions before I got to the far end of the runway.
Wooden-Department-78@reddit
My friend, you need to assess this statement ‘You obviously wouldnt follow the MAP’. There is obviously nothing obvious about this. You already briefed the MAP, have it plugged in, the tower expects you to fly the MAP when you declared. If you do anything else you are jeopardizing your own safety, the safety of others, and making things harder than it needs to be for everyone involved.
mitch_kramer@reddit
My current airline we set the missed approach altitude as the altitude on the approach we are backing up the visual with. At my old airline we set the altitude as pattern altitude on a visual. In either case I am flying to that altitude on a go around until I hear from tower. I'll fly straight out with the exception of flying into terrain or in a place like DCA where you might end up in a Prohibited area if you don't turn. I've initiated go arounds in the past and even before I can tell ATC i am going it they have given me a heading and altitude.
BakerHasHisKitchen@reddit
I’m gonna be able to go around, clean up, and follow the missed approach before they can get off the ground. In any case the tower should get back to you rather quickly with a heading and altitude. I’m not gonna do an offset or something goofy like that while on an IFR flight even if I’m in VMC.
Ok_Big_3300@reddit (OP)
That was my thought exactly
old_flying_fart@reddit
You're in controlled airspace. Go-arounds are ok, random turns are not.