How does the average Brit feel/think about the English Civil War?
Posted by Round_Bookkeeper_887@reddit | AskABrit | View on Reddit | 524 comments
I know that not everyone cares about history very much, I mean to ask about those who do have any thoughts or opinions on it. I am an American and I think the English civil war is really fascinating as I have been studying it on my own recently. We only learned about it briefly in school and it wasn't well explained.
I don't think it will be very surprising to many of you that I can't help but sympathize with the Parliamentarians just a little bit, even though I'm well aware of their flaws and the bad things that Cromwell did. I think this is just the bias I hold, growing up in the states, to be favorable towards anything that's vaguely democratic. For the record I can't help but feel the same way about the French Revolution. Kindred spirits I suppose. I imagine most Americans who actually know a good amount about the English civil war feel roughly the same way.
But what do Brits think? Were the Royalists or the Parliamentarians more in the right? Or was it all just one big tragedy? I imagine there are some people with strong opinons one way or the other. Does it affect British politics at all today or is it a subject regularly mentioned? I ask these questions in part because the American civil war is still so impactful on the American psyche, I believe, and stark differences of opinion still rage over it to this day.
YorkshireDrifter@reddit
In Yorkshire they only know about some sort of war against Lancashire. When I was in Manchester they felt the same about those gutteral sounding thugs from over the hills "...teeya way". Perfectly logical, all about roses.
fluffyfluffscarf28@reddit
I'm a history teacher and teach the 17th century, covering James I, Charles I, Civil War, Interregnum and Restoration to my students.
I dont think its as simple as saying one side was 'right' - history is never black and white like that. Charles I caused deep divides with his Parliament over religion, money and his belief in divine right - but once Cromwell was in power there was an explosion of competing factors, including extreme religious sects, who completely upended the country. We briefly ended up not in democracy, but in military rule, and by the time 1659 came about people just wanted the adults back in the room again. They were content to have a monarchy back.
Most people I imagine would only know the vaguest things about the Civil War, like how we executed a king, the Puritans wanted to ban Christmas, and Charles II (the king who liked to party, ta Horrible Histories!) got restored. My home town has a few physical reminders left of the Civil War, like 17C musket ball holes left in a building, but for most people it would just be a vague concept of 'oh yeah, that happened'.
moneywanted@reddit
I grew up in Raglan, so there’s more than a small reminder of Charles’ defeat by Cromwell!
But now, many years after my junior school project, I’m down to “Cromwell was a dick who hated Christmas, but at least it was a catalyst for something fairer in the end”.
WallsendLad70@reddit
Interesting fact that rivalries between Newcastle and Sunderland date back to Civil War.
re_Claire@reddit
Makes me laugh so much that in the south we just think of all that area as "Geordies" and lump it all in together, and then I moved up here and discovered that people from Sunderland and Newcastle find that absolutely abhorrent, and hate each other lol.
ladybyron1982@reddit
Oooh, I've got a question for you. I know the Mackems and the Geordies hate each other, but how do the Smoggies fit into the dynamic? (I must admit, I've never been to 'boro or met anyone from there. I'm just inclined to love them cos Bob Mortimer is an icon.)
aezy01@reddit
Geordies hate Mackems and Mackems hate Geordies. Smoggies hate Geordie’s and Mackems. Mackems dislike Smoggies afaik. But Geordies are indifferent to Smoggies.
athelstanjnr@reddit
I think this just happens on so many levels everywhere, where I’m from, all the towns and villages are their own thing, in my dads day you’d get jumped if you were in the wrong one 😂 but if someone insulted our whole area, how dare you
The-Mandolinist@reddit
You’re absolutely right - probably everywhere in England has a couple of towns nearby with strong rivalries: Wigan vs St Helens; Bolton vs Bury; Blackburn vs Burnley (those are some of the ones near me) etc. etc.
fezzuk@reddit
I lived in southsheilds for a few years, i found it hillarious how much they hated each other dispute as far as i was conserned being part of the same place.
TooNGooN89@reddit
Bloody mackems
hopeless_wanderer_95@reddit
I might be bullshitting with this so anyone feel free to correct me because I cant really be bothered to look it up right now (I will tomorrow if i remember), but I'm sure i recall reading somehwere that the rivalry goes back even further to the anglo-scottish wars.
I think Sunderland occasionally housed/supported scottish armies, allowing them to surprise newcastle with attacks from the south.
And to this day its still the horses that suffer for it lol
WarmJewel@reddit
Great answer!
I know a fair amount about the English Civil War having read numerous books about it both pure history and historical fiction and I'd agree with you. There is no right or wrong side here. They were both wrong in refusing to compromise their individual positions but ultimately swopped a monarch for an authoritarian dictator.
I'm not sure I'd agree that it does not affect politics today though. Surely this was the end of absolute monarchy and its right to rule and the start of Parliamentary authority and sovereignty establishing the precedent that the monarch cannot rule without Parliament's consent?
Altruistic_Fruit2345@reddit
Sounds like the Brexit of its day.
maceilean@reddit
Since you're a history teacher I have follow up question. There seems to be civil wars in England every hundred years or so usually because of a succession crisis (The Anarchy, War of the Roses, The Barons Wars, The Glorious Revolution, etc.) so why is the mid-17th century war the only one called The Civil War?
fluffyfluffscarf28@reddit
As far as I know, it's the only one with really pitched battles that brings together mixed groups into structured armies. The Wars of the Roses were largely nobles vs nobles having skirmishes, the Glorious Revolution was all political and not military at all, same with the Anarchy - but the Civil War led to armies being raised on behalf of either the King or Parliament all across the country. It really did split the country in two, whereas (AFAIK) none of the others achieved that.
Lavidius@reddit
You could say it turned the world upside down 😉
fluffyfluffscarf28@reddit
boom boom!
maceilean@reddit
Fair enough. Thank you. I just finished The Pillars of the Earth and had The Anarchy on my mind.
1Monkey3Typewriters@reddit
'Right'? Well, one side was Right but repulsive, and the other was Wrong but romantic.
The bonkers religious groups (and their pamphlets) were a really interesting rabbit hole to go down as an A level student, as were the Putney Debates - I used to ride past the church at Putney on the way to work a few jobs back.
The whole period is fascinating and it's a shame it's not taught more in schools. It's interesting that it isn't, not least because of what Cromwell and the New Model Army did in Ireland. Speaking of which, there's an absolute ton of stuff about English colonialism that wasn't even mentioned in school in the 80s and 90s - hopefully that's been rectified since.
fluffyfluffscarf28@reddit
We do talk a LOT about Ireland in the course - Lord Strafford and Ireland, Cromwell and Ireland, Irish wars etc. I'm a very typical English person in that I know woefully little about Irish history, and that's pretty embarrassing. I know FAR more about German history 1917-1989, including the Communist GDR, than I do anything about Ireland.
The bonkers religious groups are my favourite, too. I especially like the cult called the Muggletonians, and that for a bit of time Parliament was led by some crazy religious radicals and a guy called PraiseGod Barebones. What a name!
saffa05@reddit
35 years old and I'd love to sit in on one of your lessons. Especially if you threw your own emotional spin on events.
fluffyfluffscarf28@reddit
Aw thanks! That's very sweet. I hope my students are as enamoured hahahaha.
No-Veterinarian-3916@reddit
If you're a history teacher, you shouldn't be pushing democracy. Cromwell had hte same powers as Charles I essentially, as he was a king i all but name.
fluffyfluffscarf28@reddit
Uh huh. How about I stick to my job and you stick to yours?
No-Veterinarian-3916@reddit
What job? I merely responded to your point. that IS the point here.
skipperseven@reddit
For me the most telling thing is that Cromwell as Lord Protector adopted the royal form of address - highness. He ruled by decree and was succeeded by his son, so I always assumed that he was trying to start his own dynasty. I also feel that he is unfairly credited too much for parliamentary democracy whilst it was actually the restoration that ushered in the more democratic era…
As a history professional what do you think - I confess that I just like jumping to conclusions, but I have no objection to being subsequently corrected?
fluffyfluffscarf28@reddit
Cromwell was succeeded by his son yes, but he never actually nominated anyone to come after him, so the idea of starting his own dynasty kind of falls apart there. And Richard Cromwell was mostly nice but useless anyway.
Parliament had actually tried to convince Cromwell to take the title of king through something called the Humble Petition and Advice, and he kept rejecting it, largely because the only real support he had left by 1655 was the Army and they haaaaated the idea of Cromwell being king. He was trying to keep Parliament (who was basically a very small, religiously zealous group) content whilst also keep the army onside, and then he did the inconvenient thing of dying a couple of years later.
Cromwell was a man of Providence, so he was VERY driven by what he believed God wanted, rather than anything democratic. What we would call more democratic movements today (the Levellers and Diggers) he either listened to and ignored, or just crushed entirely. I do agree with you that the Restoration was the era that was more democratic, as Charles II specifically said he would listen to Parliament when making decisions. So, part disagree, part agree with you overall?
skipperseven@reddit
Excellent reply, thank you! Opinion duly updated…
UniqueEnigma121@reddit
OP “Definitely does not effect politics today”
The King still opens parliament, the PM meets the monarch weekly. The House has no powers without the Monarchs symbol.
Just because he no longer has the Devine right of Kings, does not stop the monarchy expressing their opinions & influencing politics.
We would have been far better off as a modern Federal Republic. But unfortunately our civil war, was before Industrialisation & the formation of a class conscience🤷♂️
pab6407@reddit
Arguably the diggers and the levellers mark the beginning of class consciousness
fluffyfluffscarf28@reddit
Yes exactly, and the land owning class were horrified by them because they (gasp!) wanted everyone to have land and (gasp!!) wanted everyone to have the vote. Its not until the Chartists two hundred years later that we get that idea come back again.
asmiggs@reddit
That's not why the Republic failed, it's democratic institutions only lasted a few years before a dictatorship took hold. This was a failure of the victors ability to govern and inability to deliver the Republic that was promised and nothing to do with the working man and whether he supported the failed revolution or not.
Impossible_Theme_148@reddit
Exactly this, the difference between a Monarchy and a Republic isn't democracy - it's God
Cromwell was offered a Crown which he refused because he felt he was not appointed by God - that makes a Republic
Does not stop anyone being a dictator - for "the people"
Round_Bookkeeper_887@reddit (OP)
I understand. The Puritans in the US aren't treated favorably in the popular imagination either, but that's because of the Salem witch trials which are also an 'oh yeah, that happened,' kind of thing
mad_king_soup@reddit
Well the puritans were kind of dicks who moved to the Americas because Christianity in Europe was getting too liberal. Very few people in England will even know what the Salem witch trials are, but we still think they were religious assholes.
Impossible_Theme_148@reddit
The Salem witch trials are very well known because they get brought up in film and TV all the time
AndrewHinds67@reddit
Many of us in Britain are very aware of the Salem witch trials because of a play called The Crucible.
sickiesusan@reddit
I think more people are aware of them due to TV/film rather than The Crucible.
fluffyfluffscarf28@reddit
Well, the Puritans were very much a 'if you're not with us you're going to HELL' lot, which tends not to make you friends very easily.
Instabanous@reddit
Thankyou for the HH mention! Definitely solidified my knowledge of the period, the West Side story song with the cavaliers and roundheads and of course party king Charles 2nd, the GOAT. I agree it doesnt affect politics much apart from our general acceptance of the Monarchy, like, we tried without, we preferred it with, leave it alone.
TarnishedLissy@reddit
We have a lot of history, basically, and many people stop studying it at age 14.
Unless you are a history student or have a random personal interest then you might be aware on a horrible histories level but that's about it.
Honestly my class of mostly mature uni students studied the start of the nhs recently and it got derailed because around half of the University class wasn't even sure of some of the basic details of ww2. They will definitely have studied it at school because schools are obsessed, and they will have met people who lived through it, so I have no idea what the answer is. The civil war is several levels up from ww2 history teaching wise.
Opening_Dentist_1128@reddit
There wasn't quite the same decisive outcome for us, after ousting our tyrant king we did flirt with theocracy for a bit and then we went right back to the monarchy.
Personally I just think Charles I specifically sucked, if he had been less spineless everything would have been fine.
Maleficent-Shower769@reddit
I don’t think the average Brit remembers anything about the English civil war
Guard_Jamie@reddit
Unfortunately, knowledge of the wars and political upheavals of the 17th century in the UK is really poor. Like most history, it’s simplified and boiled down into goodie and baddies, ship money and roundheads and cavaliers; and that’s if you’re lucky enough to be taught about it at all: often, it’s neglected in favour of a similarly simplified look at the Tudor period.
This is not dissimilar to studies of the American revolution and war of independence, which often boil it all down to a good story, and cut out hugely important elements like the influence of the French, the significant loyalist presence on the side of Britain, its place in the wider context of the C18 wars between European powers etc.
This is a huge shame, because whilst it comes off the back of the reformation’s breaking of the Church’s power in the C16, the political upheavals of the C17 in Britain are fascinating, cataclysmic and undoubtedly the foundations upon which modern British governance rests. It’s the complicated and violent move from a sovereign with near absolute power only checked by Parliament, to a sovereign who rules by consent, not without power but who has that power through constitutional means, the majority of power resting with the (albeit not very democratically elected) Parliament.
It’s the British revolution, the time when the middling sorts of society wrested some (most? discuss) power from the monarch and the magnates, when peasant soldiers stood and debated the rights of man, levellers and diggers took previously religious utopian ideas of a property-less society and tried to make them workable, when the rights of man were codified and expressed. It deserves an absolutely stonking miniseries to Wolf Hall levels of quality, and sadly will probably never have it.
dead_jester@reddit
True
Ok-Albatross-9743@reddit
I teach the subject to Year 8 Pupils. 100% have no previous knowledge. The average British person has no real idea about the conflict, its causes, its course or its consequences. It's shocking as it was a war in which 5 -10% of the country's population perished. Sadly an average American will be far more knowledgeable as it has ramifications for the War of Independence.
Thaddeus_Valentine@reddit
I'm looking forward to it.
UsedTinyPrincess@reddit
not much interest, honestly
Albannach02@reddit
It was part of the War of the Three Kingdoms. The English part, if anything, may have had fewer repercussions than the Irish part (to this day) and the Scottish part (constitutionally).
Squabsy2@reddit
The AVERAGE brit doesn't even know or care it happened
DiscipleNo1@reddit
So I went to a Church of England school and what I find fascinating is how biased my education was. Here the parliamentarians were in the right. Queen Elizabeth the 1st was good queen Mary (the Catholic) was bad.
cbamatt@reddit
The only time I really think about it is to lament the fact that it led to the deliberate destruction (slighting) of most of our castles.
Voolvif_Monn_@reddit
Lots of people saying no one cares but I think there is some popular interest in this, the book Restless Republic for instance is quite popular at the moment. It's also a very important part of the UK's constitutional history in enhancing the sovereignty of Parliament.
DancingWilliams@reddit
So, England isn't all of Britain, and some Brits will be Welsh or Scottish. To me it's a civil war that happened in someone else's country. We could just add well ask how Brits feel about the Marian civil war in Scotland in the 1570s.
No-Veterinarian-3916@reddit
nonsense. it was the wars of the three kingdoms. The Scottish convenatnter and English Roundheads united to defeat King Charles. It was never reallycontained in England at all. Cromwell's Irish conquest was a direct result of the Roundheads winning in England.
DancingWilliams@reddit
Fair point, so why is it still taught as the English civil war?
Voolvif_Monn_@reddit
Calling it the English Civil War bit of a misnomer really, ironically it was the Scottish Covenanters disagreement with Charles which arguably started it all off. Scotland, England, Ireland and Wales (as part of England at the time) were all involved.
Crumptes@reddit
Agree. It wasn't on the Scottish curriculum at all. I imagine the average Scot knows next to nothing about it.
Dolgar01@reddit
The English Civil War is less impactful on modern England than the US Civil War on modern USA fir several reasons.
1) it was longer ago. Sounds obvious, but it really matters.
2) England is less polarised than USA.
3) One side of the country did not win or lose. Parliament won the war, but the monarchy was restored with little bloodshed.
4) We were literally a different country back then. It was the English Civil War, not a British Civil War.
5) The US Civil War has more in common with a standard war. The States are much more independent than the counties and cities of England. When the South lost, people who live in the South now, feel that they lost. In England, the conflict was political, not geographical.
Super_Plastic5069@reddit
The what???
fivelongdays@reddit
The divide in English - not to say British - society is between Roundheads and Cavaliers. Just most people don't realise it.
_Daftest_@reddit
But Cromwell wasn't vaguely democratic.
Under King Charles, Members of Parliament were elected.
Under Cromwell, Members of Parliament who disagreed with Cromwell were held outside the House at gunpoint to prevent them from voting. When it was time to reselect members, instead of holding an election, members were appointed by the army.
I'm not sure you're really batting for the democracy team here. You just seem to be stuck at "king bad".
No-Eggplant942@reddit
We talk about it all the time. Not a day goes by where we don’t discuss the merits of the New Model Army and Thomas Fairfax’s generalship.
UnspeakableGnome@reddit
According to 1066 and all That, the Cavaliers were Wrong but Wromantic and the Roundheads were Right but Repulsive.
Of course it's a lot more complicated than that, but in terms of being the faction that had plenty of resources and didn't do a large number of stupid things Parliament was ahead of the other factions. They don't really start becoming extremely silly until after they win.
Electronic-Stay-2369@reddit
Well imho we got that shit out of the way nice and early; kill the king, get a dictator, realise its just a king by another name maybe worse, get a proper king back. but with parliament heavily involved. I think it's worked out OK. America, how's the president thing going right now. Russia, any opinions? China? Iran? Spain got rid of their fascist dictator and went back to a king. France too, swap a hereditary king for a hereditary emperor but now they've gone full president but seem to be doing OK.
Infinite-Squirrel696@reddit
I'm fascinated by the lack of interest or knowledge in the English civil war. Nigh on 200,000 people died as a result, a considerable percentage of the population at the time. I think after the restoration the monarchy did a fantastic job of marginalising and demonising the commonwealth, not without some justification. And given that we're still a monarchy (unfortunately), maybe they don't want people getting any ideas!
ConversationOld9908@reddit
Coming from Plymouth we had a minor battle - see Battle of Freedom Fields, and endured a siege by Royalists, so there are buildings and street names relating back to those times but you have to go digging into local history quite deeply to find much relevant information. I think I have one book on the English Civil War and half a dozen on the American Civil War! I can’t remember it ever being taught as a topic.
I’ve just popped in to the local bookstore and there are only around half a dozen books on the subject.
markbrev@reddit
My usual answer is
“Which one?”
Yakitori_Grandslam@reddit
Charles I: not the first nor the last King who was in fact a complete tool. He nor Parliament could see a way forward so it all descended into chaos and civil war. Charles despite losing (Cromwell at least deserves praise for being a brilliant military leader) and being captured a couple of times continues to troll everyone, so Parliament are left with no alternative than to put an end to him.
After some arguing about what to do and realising that they might be a bit shit at this, Parliament put Cromwell in charge. Cromwell stomps about a bit, pisses of the Scots, beats them up, decides the Irish need a kicking as well because he’s got a hard on for Protestant rule and is getting close to those puritans. Makes everyone’s lives miserable. Dies. His son is rubbish when he takes over (but not as scary). The grown ups in parliament decide they’ve had enough of this. Get Charles’ son back and put him in charge as long as he promises to listen to parliament. Great for him because he’s all about drinking and debauchery, until he’s not and puts Parliament in its place. James II succeeds him but doesn’t last very long because no one likes him. End of the Stewarts.
Lessons learnt: religious puritan nutjobs who like muskets (guns) and genocide shouldn’t be put in charge of your country. We proved that, the Americans took the idea and ran with it. Worked out well.
Never put the Scots in charge of the country.
JHaslam1969@reddit
Quite a few people here are interested enough to take part in re-enactments, with cavalry, armour, pikes and flintlock rifles. The most jaw dropping was the cannon!
Apprehensive-Top3675@reddit
Very few people know, think or care about it that deeply.
Coca_lite@reddit
It’s not like the American civil war which is still felt deeply by the Americans
asmiggs@reddit
Yeah the last American Civil war veteran died in 1956 and there are still statues and monuments across in promenent positions the country, and still have a cultural impact. The last British civil veteran died in 1732, any monuments have mostly gone and much of the consequences of that era have been undone, the Puritans who were at the forefront of the initial victory actually left for the US (again) after the Crown was returned and a new Book of Common prayer was issued effectively kicking them out of the Church of England.
bisensual@reddit
The US civil war also had deeply felt stakes to the average person and I doubt the English CW had that much significance to the average person. Not only were there stakes at the time; they linger to this day. The sectional divide between north and south, the racial politics, etc. are all still extremely politically relevant to many Americans.
blubbery-blumpkin@reddit
The English civil war definitely had a very real effect on the average person. And it changed the way we were governed multiple times. The issue is that was so long ago it’s no longer felt. And we’ve had generations of political changes since then, and generations of people voting for changes that benefit them.
snapper1971@reddit
Neither of those things are true. Monuments still stand. Sites are preserved. The changes brought about by the bloodshed and chaos of the Civil War are still in place. The monarch is a figurehead, not an absolute ruler.
OrdinaryAncient3573@reddit
The last veteran died the fifties, but the last US Civil War pension recipient died in 2020.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irene_Triplett
CountofAnjou@reddit
The American civil war was comparatively recent.
Odd_Sir4792@reddit
And the issues it was about are still live issues today. No one would dream of suggesting that an absolute monarchy has any relevance to modern society or wearing "Don't Chop Off My Head' t-shirts.
Snoot_Booper_101@reddit
I think nearly all of us would have an issue with it if Charles suddenly decided he wanted to be an absolute monarch and made moves to make that happen. It's more that "English civil war 2: Electric Boogaloo" is not likely in the slightest, because the royal family know that they've already got the cushiest gig possible with the way it is.
Where the English civil war does still have any relevancy in modern politics is more about whether the monarchy should still have a place in our constitutional system at all. I suspect nearly everyone except the most die hard republicans doesn't see a good reason to rock that particular boat right now.
quartersessions@reddit
Charles II pretty much restored the status quo ante. What guarantees he gave (for example, signing the Covenant in Scotland) he went back on and reigned as he saw fit. He then eyeballed Parliament down over the Exclusion crisis.
Parliament bided its time until it was time for a bit of Glorious Revolutioning after his death.
Snoot_Booper_101@reddit
The constitutional monarchy model didn't just happen overnight, that's for sure. I doubt the current status would satisfy either Charles I or Cromwell, but we are where we are.
f8rter@reddit
I think mainly because it had a defined geographical base “North” versus “South”
Infinite_Crow_3706@reddit
The US civil war was a war of succession so theres a more geographic aspect
NeilDeWheel@reddit
Regrettable things were said and done but it turned out alright in the end.
jimthewanderer@reddit
It really didn't. Massive loss of life, and the only real change was the consolidation of power by capital interests, the crushing of the English spirit of rebellion against our "betters", and a Genocidal campaign in Ireland that continues to have consequences.
homemadegrub@reddit
It was a couple years ago now
MINKIN2@reddit
1642 was twenty years ago???!
homemadegrub@reddit
It was a joke and I said a couple not twenty
Chromeballs@reddit
Yeah, this. I dont see it as part of our common identity. If you work in politics or British history then maybe.
Matezza@reddit
I think k we all know about it. Not in detail but aware of it happening. They just don't care or think about it unless they happen to live next to a landmark from the war
dallasp2468@reddit
I'll let you know after I watch the fin Vs history retelling
Head_Journalist_2856@reddit
Just about over it, the flashbacks though.
MapDiscombobulated1@reddit
Most of the responses here are that the subject is a big shrug of the shoulders - unsurprisingly so as it's a LONG way into the past. But it's impact is still felt in that for everything that went wrong because of the war, establishing the Primacy of Parliament over the Monarchy is very much a big deal for how things currently are, and hopefully always will be.
YupItWasMeMate@reddit
They don’t think about it at all. Most Brits know so little history they wouldn’t know what you were talking about…
Raven-Nightshade@reddit
Most don't think on it, and tbh I'm shocked it was even mentioned in a US school.
Intelligent_Emu9286@reddit
Few people know much about it, unfortunately.
My biggest thought is that it would make an absolutely fantastic glossy TV mini series, and I'm astonished that nobody has produced one.
The tensions of religious, nationalist, and populist extremism; the incredible and morally-ambiguous characters with amazing character arcs; the culture wars; the divided families, both humble and wealthy; the political and emotional depth; the interpersonal and international rivalries played out at court, through espionage, and on noisy and dramatic battlefields; the constant tension from the feeling that the conflict could easily go any way at any time; and of course the many frankly amazing opportunities for velvet outfits...
nogardleirie@reddit
Nobody I know has ever even mentioned it
maisydee@reddit
I mentioned it once - but I think I got away with it…
Scottie99@reddit
Did you say it in a cavalier way?
Any_Tomorrow_Today@reddit
He was probably more roundabout.
f8rter@reddit
Ours was 400 years ago mate
When Cromwell died we reverted to as before so nothing much changed
It wasn’t one half of give country fighting the other half
We are over it
Deuce03@reddit
It kind of was one half of the country fighting the other half. Just not in a way that breaks down neatly geographically or in a way that can be interpreted as relevant today.
Any_Tomorrow_Today@reddit
And mostly led by the nobility and concerned the nobility - ye old faming folk got on with life and did what their masters told them too.
f8rter@reddit
Don’t disagree with that
Round_Bookkeeper_887@reddit (OP)
I get what you mean about democracy not really existing under Cromwell and you're right to think that, but just because something happened a long time ago doesn't mean there aren't strong opinions held. There are definelty Irish people who have strong opinions on Cromwell today.
McIntosh812@reddit
Cromwell essentially enslaved the entire Irish population- of course they don’t like him He didn’t do too much long-lasting stuff in the rest of the UK though, so is less thought of. Hell, most people I know couldn’t tell you anything about Cromwell other than he was a Roundhead and that he almost became king
pab6407@reddit
It’s interesting when Irish historians talk about that period, as Cromwell’s brutality has been somewhat exaggerated, contemporary records show nothing extraordinary for the period and indeed a notable lack of rape and pillage.
It seems to have suited both sides to talk up the events, one side to keep up a sense of grievance and the other as a deterrent against further insurrection.
NaomiT29@reddit
If that!
f8rter@reddit
Indeed there are
Infernode5@reddit
If you polled people I would be surprised if over 50% knew what the English Civil War was/was about. Most would probably recognise the name Cromwell, but not know much of what he did. Him banning Christmas is probably just as famous as his conquest of Ireland unfortunately.
Slyspy006@reddit
I would say that Cromwell banning Christmas in more well known in the UK than the military involvement in Ireland, which is weird because it isn't even true.
Zr0w3n00@reddit
Just because something happened ages ago, doesn’t mean there’s not strong opinions, that is true. But there just aren’t strong opinions on the English Civil War in England, there aren’t really any emotions at all.
From an English POV is basically had no affect on the country. We were temporarily a puritanical, boring country. Then we went back, doubt many people would be able to tell you anything past knowing the civil war happened.
David_is_dead91@reddit
You’re over-estimating the majority of people’s basic knowledge of the English Civil War, let alone feelings toward it. I can’t even remember studying it in school - if we did it wasn’t in any great depth. I’d really have to have a sit down and read through the wiki article to be able to have any meaningful conversation on it.
Any_Tomorrow_Today@reddit
Pft we still haven't gotton over the War of the Roses here in the North !! It didn't matter who won the throne - what was important was who won out of Lancashire and Yorkshire !!
HotButteredBagel@reddit
Half my A level history was on the English Civil War. I don’t remember much about it now 30 years later. I can’t speak for others but for me it’s not relevant to anything now. It was an interesting period to study but unless you do, most English people won’t know more than that it involved Cromwell.
Intelligent-Profit34@reddit
I might have actually stuck with A Level history and not dropped it if it had been about something even vaguely juicy like the English Civil War. After a few terms of William Pitt the younger and such I had had enough.
jimthewanderer@reddit
That entire period is only interesting as a downstream study of the consequences of the Civil War.
UmlautsAndRedPandas@reddit
Disclaimer: I say this as a 30 year old.
Pitt the Younger and Napoleonic Era politics sounds so much more interesting and relevant than doing the Cold War twice and Stalinist Russia twice (like I did for GCSE and A Level).
I did the English Civil War in Year 8 and it was rather a nothing-burger.
snarkmaiden5@reddit
Our history A levels were a bit more modern. The World Wars, and AS level was the Vietnam war. At first I was disappointed because I wanted something older, but it turned out to be more interesting than I thought.
Think it helped English Literature was also the war poems by Sigfried Sasson and Wilfred Owen 🙂. All tied in
HotButteredBagel@reddit
We didn’t have an option to do global history. The Vietnam war sounds interesting as we never studied US history and it seems like it had a big impact on their culture
UmlautsAndRedPandas@reddit
As somebody who did the Vietnam War for AS Level, the first 15 years is quite interesting (because you have to start with the first Vietnam War conducted by France in the early 1950s), and the remainder of it you're bored absolutely shitless, with your attention span briefly spiking by Nixon and Kissinger coming in and being genocidal cunts.
There was a brief nod to the impact it had on the American psyche and general public but really not that much was said about that at all. More attention was paid to the political and cultural divides between North and South, and the war's place in a global context.
snarkmaiden5@reddit
They were our only options for topics really.
It is, affected all sorts of things. It was part of the Cold War too in a way, an indirect conflict between the various "superpowers", from what I remember.
PastorParcel@reddit
Yes! I also dropped A-Level History after the first year as they seemed to revel in only teaching the boring bits!
AffectionateLion9725@reddit
And that's why I gave up O level History. The other group in my school were doing medieval history. We had the industrial revolution.
Terrible_Tap_4385@reddit
Don’t forget castlereagh and canning …..
f8rter@reddit
We have so much history that and exam led curriculum tends to focus on specific areas
Secure-Occasion-3599@reddit
As a Brit I don’t particularly care although I’m quite amused that Cromwell was so awful they brought back the king. Shouldn’t have outlawed drinking and dancing and everything fun in life, that was never going to go well.
Apprehensive-Fact602@reddit
A missed opportunity of being a proper republic sold out by the lords and rich at the time again for profit so nothing has changed roll on the 2nd republic
shredditorburnit@reddit
It's a great example of how, no matter the system, getting decent governance is not guaranteed.
Monarchy was crap. Pure democracy was crap. Weird halfway house system seems to work better than either but is still fairly mediocre.
The trouble is that the only great governance comes from the occasional genuinely benevolent dictator, but if you have dictators and get a bad one, it's an absolute disaster.
As to the actual war...it was fairly stupid and shouldn't have happened. When the powerful want to fight they should do it themselves and leave the poor out of it.
LevelsBest@reddit
Do people think about the Civil War? No not really. Most people will have a concept of cavaliers and roundheads/Charles I executed/Cromwell/Charles II the merry monarch and that's it. I think it's because on the surface, because the monarchy was restored, it appeared to be back to business as usual. In practice of course, the civil war brought about fundamental changes.
Never again would a king be able to act or claim to be an absolute monarch. Henceforth, he would always be dependent on parliament to rule effectively. Even more than pre civil war, anti Catholic sentiment was baked into the system. Any hint of catholic sentiment or practices in the monarchy would not be tolerated, hence James II reign (Charles II's brother), was short lived and he was sent into exile. The turbulent religious conflicts of the 16th and 17th centuries were largely decided.
The civil war began the series of fundamental changes to the British constitution that were cemented in the 18th and 19th centuries. It was the reason Britain avoided the period of bloody revolutions of that later period and instead focussed on trade and empire building.
Like the American Civil War it was also proportionally the bloodiest conflict in the country's history and set brother against brother. Although it is aristocrats that get a lot of the attention, at ground level it was often the landed gentry who were fundamental in splitting between king and parliament.
If you're further interested, an old but good (and not too long) book is Christopher Hill's 'The World turned Upside Down'.
Helena_Handcart1@reddit
I doubt that many Brits could even tell you what were the important rights each side was fighting for. Most people wouldn’t give it a second thought.
the_star_lord@reddit
Tbh I was never taught it in school and never bothered to look it up. So I guess it sucks it happened, no idea why, or who won, so no Biggie. Just another pointless conflict in human history. And I guess puts things in perspective, these huge rifts in society tend to balance out and come and go in waves.
BandicootTreeline@reddit
It wasn’t very civil for a start.
Alternative_Pie_1597@reddit
As a child I read The Children of the New Forest. Which was intended to turn children into royalists. In my case it succeeded.
nickgardia@reddit
Not much because the Royal family was restored after a decade, so there wasn’t the same impact as the French Revolution.
wildgoosecass@reddit
Nobody identifies with either side, it’s just history, it’s nothing like the American civil war.
That’s not to say it didn’t have long lasting effects on the country, politically, culturally, etc. but this isn’t something people are aware of day to day and there are tons of other historical events which that could be said for
Negative-Green-1618@reddit
Ngl im welsh not English but i know as much if not more about the American civil war than the English 1
BaronSamedys@reddit
Is that the one with the Roundheads?
They don't think/feel anything, I'd wager.
WallaceWasNoTraitor@reddit
You mean The War of the Three Kingdoms? The term English Civil War, shows the exceptionalism that blights historical fact.
unicornhair1991@reddit
Gonna be honest, when you said English civil war my mind didn't go to Cromwell but went to The Wars of the Roses lol. I know and think a lot about them. A wild tug of war spanning generations.
Towton is still considered to be one of the bloodiest battles on British soil. Which says a lot considering it was 1461.
Love history, but mostly stuff from before the 1500s. Before guns got popularised in war really. (They still existed but weren't the main staple)
My exception to this is Napoleonic history. He was a megolomaniac ass but good lord he knew how to fight and lead. And a lot of his laws and codes exist today he was so ahead of his time. Thanks for standardizing the metric system Napoleon!
ValerianKeyblade@reddit
The fun thing about the English Civil War is that we actually had a whole bunch of lower case civil wars that just don't get called that for some reason. The War of the Roses (one* of those other civil wars) is probably thought about more than the English Civil War as it's tied to one of the most referenced and iconic periods in our history, unlike the Civil War.
conkerskeeponconking@reddit
Me-almost never
Fit-Fault338@reddit
I love History but I dont think of the Civil War much.Reinstating Christmas was good for the peasants,so Im glad old Cromwell lost.
Current_Mongoose_844@reddit
None of them were "right", but it wasn't the Royalists who attempted genocide. I'll say that much.
Estebesol@reddit
It is not a part of history I have any interest in. Since I have zero academic interest, it never comes up, unless you count the references in Discworld, which aren't essential to understanding the books.
Gullible_Passion_331@reddit
Not a lot – I'm pretty ignorant about it, so my understanding is Parliament kept the King in check, and then went slightly berserk with Cromwell. And then reverted back to a ConMon.
I used to live near Boscobel house, and went there a few times as a child. Charles the 2nd's adventure into exile needs to be made into a movie – could imagine it being a comedy.
Nicktrains22@reddit
As a history student, honestly the changes in how the war has been interpreted is more interesting than the war itself. For a few hundred years Cromwell and the Roundheads were seen as the good guys, defending parliament against royal tyranny. However nowadays Cromwell is reviled for being a bloodthirsty tyrant and puritan, who banned many of the things that makes life fun.
After having explored his actions in primary source material, including what he himself wrote about his actions, I have to agree with the latter interpretation. His actions in England, Scotland and later Ireland were barbaric.
fluffyfluffscarf28@reddit
Honestly my favourite story is what happened to Cromwell's head after the Restoration. I think the legend is that it's now buried under the chapel at Sidney Sussex College in Cambridge.
Greyhatnewman@reddit
I think a powerless royal family beats a president particularly ones that puritan xmas haters
LongAd4728@reddit
It didn't actually change very much. The monarchy was restored and we went back to incremental reform.
LongAd4728@reddit
It didn't actually change very much. The monarchy was restored and we went back to incremental reform.
f8rter@reddit
We’ve got over two thousand years of history so it’s just set another one of those things that happened along the way
Ok_Veterinarian2715@reddit
Who's this "we"?
Britain goes back to various dates. 1920something when Eire left? Irexit? The various acts of union - 1800, 1700 etc. The arrival of the Normans? The Angles & the Saxons? Would pre-Roman Britons recognise post-Roman Britons?
My point is that the country 'Britain' really is quite young. Younger than the US if you want to get technical about it.
fartingbeagle@reddit
See, there's a geographic/ cultural Britain, and a political Britain. Just like Italy and Germany.
Ok_Veterinarian2715@reddit
I think it's mostly the cultural version of a country that I'm concerned with. If you go back a surpringly short time, you'll find you have more in common with Dutchmen than you do with Tudor Englishmen - to choose a random pairing for an example.
Believing one has a connection that far back is just like an American tourist loading himself down with tartan tat because he's under the delusion that he's Scottish.
doepfersdungeon@reddit
There's no country called Britain though.
Madog-Hellgeese@reddit
Eh?
Ok_Veterinarian2715@reddit
The 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland' was formally established in 1927. So the current British state is only 99 years old.
If you mean British culture. Hmm. Never mind not being able to speak Chaucerian English, or holding views that would get you burned at the stake in Tudor England, the attitudes & culture of most people before WWI were as alien to us as any other well foreign place.
People have been living here for thousands of years, but our culture is definitely not thousands of years old.
Orange_Codex@reddit
Like everything else in time, culture is a continuum.
You can take the Ship of Theseus approach if you want, because deconstructing things is super smart and calling something a 'social construct' means it's not real (apparently). But that's removed from real life.
Ok_Veterinarian2715@reddit
A perfect analogy! 2000 years ago the the Ship Britain was made of wood, used linen sails & was manned by naked people covered in woad. Today's ship is 50 times the size, is made of metal alloys and is a jet.
My objection is claiming modern Britain goes back 2000 years. No, we don't share DNA, language or culture with those people, and pretending we came from them is nonsense.
Imo today's Britain was born in the C17th, and there's plenty to be proud of in that.
f8rter@reddit
“We” the people of our islands.
Scotland and England “Englaland” created in the 10th century
Wales never a coherent stable country for more than 5 minutes until it became part of England in 1536
Ireland was a chaotic clown show of an island not a stable “country” until colonised
Great Britain was created in 1707
The UK was created in 1801, amended in 1921
GreyFoxNinjaFan@reddit
Which one?
Dependent-Panic-9457@reddit
Penn went to Pennsylvania and set it up.
Before that he was from memory one of the jurors in Coke’s trial. He and a couple of others refused to convict and went to gaol. And that case established the right of the jury to do as their conscience required. Or something. I think Coke refused to pay ship tax or some such.
Penn was in due course defrauded by his land agent and basically ended up penniless. He was one of those liberal Americans who also owned large numbers of slaves.
I could check all this on Google but prefer to go by memory.
Dependent-Panic-9457@reddit
Sorry Penn was the Defendant not the juror.
Bubbly_Gap6636@reddit
Most people know virtually nothing about it tbh. It's not usually taught in schools for GCSE etc
GoldenAmmonite@reddit
We did it at school in about Year 8. Mainly focused on how the Puritans were such miserable sods
UmlautsAndRedPandas@reddit
Lucky you! When I did it in Year 8, it was nearly all military history and tactics. Dull, dull, dull.
Zr0w3n00@reddit
They were religious extremist who imposed their religious beliefs on all the people of England. Very much the Taliban of their day.
GoldenAmmonite@reddit
Actually made adultery a capital crime, although I don't think anyone executed for it
Twid-1@reddit
Literally cancelled Christmas 😭
Admiral-snackbaa@reddit
And sent them to the new world
palpatineforever@reddit
to be fair that is putting it mildly, they were complete dicks.
it should be more relevant than it is given it is very much frying pan fire stuff when it came to the running of the country.
It is taught in most secondary schools it is part of the National Curriculum just most people forget as we dont get taught the jucy stuff about it.
AppropriateDeal1034@reddit
TIL there was only one English civil war...
Deuce03@reddit
"The Civil War" without qualification always refers to the conflict between the king and Parliament in the 1640s. It actually comprised a number of related wars, but is often referred to in the singular.
There have of course been other civil wars throughout British history, but they have other names, and none of them get the definite article.
Basteir@reddit
"The civil war" is between the Royalists and the Covenanters. Here in Scotland.
Mick_Vee_@reddit
If you exclude the miners strike
f8rter@reddit
Nope, we had the Wars of the Roses in the 14th century
And the Simon De Montfort led uprising in the 13th century against Henry III
AppropriateDeal1034@reddit
That was my point.
f8rter@reddit
I missed it
TIL?
AppropriateDeal1034@reddit
Today I learnt.
Post full of people asking about "the English civil war", like we haven't had several. I would say the wars of the roses were potentially more fundamental to English history than Cromwell being in power for 5 years.
Some people still think we'd be better without a monarchy, so clearly people didn't learn anything from that mess.
f8rter@reddit
Some people appear not to understand a constitutional monarchy then
AppropriateDeal1034@reddit
Many voters don't have the first clue about politics, it's why we had nonsense like "not my prime minister" when the Tories swapped through half a dozen in a few months. Sure that entire time was a mess, but in the UK you vote for the party, not a person.
Slyspy006@reddit
The dynastic conflicts do have a different feel to them somehow, although there are some parallels between De Montfort and the later Wars of the Three Kingdoms.
TheMightyKoosh@reddit
And The Anarchy in the 12th century
f8rter@reddit
Bloody Plantagenets !
Psycho_Splodge@reddit
We spent about a month of history lessons on it during Tudors and Stuart's at junior school. It was barely mentioned during Tudors and Stuart's in year 8
DeniseGunn@reddit
Ooh I love the Tudors!
Deuce03@reddit
Which is bizarre as it's pretty much the most interesting and important thing that happened during the Tudor and Stuart period.
Dependent-Panic-9457@reddit
It’s just the perfect period of all history. There used to be a reenactment group: the sealed knot. Not sure if they’re still going.
I am a republican like you OP, however: the parliamentarians banned Xmas ffs. They also executed the king which was uncalled for.
There is something just so magical about the restoration, after years of rule by bossy god-bothering puritans.
Outside_Duty3356@reddit
I didn’t do it at all in history so - parliamentarians and Roundheads? But my kid has developed a massive interest in it recently and he has been teaching me. He is really interested in how it split families - and religion wasn’t as big a factor as you might think.
No-Cherry-6678@reddit
We definitely are better with a constitutional monarchy but we're not very happy with puritans overall so must have been hell under Cromwell
Kornlula@reddit
I love history - i prefer earlier English history but have studied the civil war extensively (and had a recent recap thanks to my teenager learning it at school this term!)
My personal thought is that the King should have known that no catholic could sit on the throne after the Bloody Mary years - he deserved what he got. Parliament was also way out of line questioning the throne’s authority, and then trying to have their own mini Cromwell monarchy shows it was nothing to do with the people’s rights - just a power grab
Yogi-Beard62@reddit
I thought originally it was great as I’m a republican but then I discovered how Puritanical Cromwell was and that took the shine off it some!
fleksandtreks@reddit
To my mind, sympathising with the Parliamentarians is not even faintly more democratic. They were the elite. They became the elite by enclosing the common land and exploiting the poor. They went to war to leverage further power. Additionally, once they came to power, they took some of the few joys of the common people.
I don't think the monarchists were better. I just don't think that the Civil War had democracy at its heart in any fashion.
Mindless_Secret6074@reddit
This is exactly how I feel about most wars.
People on this side of the pond like to romanticise the Revolutionary War but if you really look in to the facts, it was started by a bunch of spoiled rich white guys that got pissed off because they wanted more money and control. The English bent over backwards to try and pacify them!
poppyedwardsPE@reddit
I learnt about it for A Levels but honestly had no clue there even was an English civil war beforehand. Defo think it has some lasting effects on our politics today though (even if all the parties are all tipsy turvy now)
AIX-XON@reddit
I think about as much as I think about the romans.
SubTeamLeader@reddit
Too soon!
eat-the-kids-first@reddit
As a Brit living in the US I like to tell them that the UK was a republic once (that always surprises them) but we thought it was shit so we went back to a monarchy.
poi00@reddit
The average Brit doesn’t think about it at all.
trysca@reddit
It's sets an excellent precedent for our times-off with His head!
Frosty-Gift-4403@reddit
It's kind of hilarious that England had whole civil war and it probably doesn't even make the top 3 of its key historical events.
Most people only know the basic facts about it, but ironically it is also a popular setting for reanactors. I always joke that Americans and the Brits both have Civil War reenactments but the vibes are VERY different.
Amazing-Visual-2919@reddit
They don't.
andypanty69@reddit
I knew from where the OP hailed before getting to their admission. There's only one nationality that thinks a population in generally gives as paying thought to this stuff. Perhaps because as a country they're still trying to "find themselves".
PinkElanor@reddit
The cavaliers had better hats! I did it for A level and that's about all I remember or cared about.
No-Winner8975@reddit
:shrug:
A war happened. Has little bearing on where we are now
DumCrescoSpero@reddit
I know virtually nothing about it, it wasn't covered in history when I was in school, and I've never had a discussion about it with anyone I know. So I don't think or feel anything about it.
Useful_Hawk_1470@reddit
I think your perspective on this is quite telling to be honest. With American history, I feel like there is so little of it that it is all considered very relevant to the present. The English civil war is, I suppose, relevant to modern day Britain, but because our history is longer I think the importance of each individual part of our history gets ‘watered down’ (or is perceived to), so there is a much greater disconnect most people feel with our past before maybe the Victorians, or possibly the Georgians. I studied the English civil war in school (not everyone does), but just like many things in English history, both factions are presented as and feel utterly disconnected from the present. It’s like learning about a war between France and Italy, it’s just something that happened in the past. I don’t think anyone even thinks of it as a tragedy. It’s just something in our history that formed who we are today but no one really talks about or thinks about.
Last-Seaworthiness68@reddit
It’s taught differently depending on what part of the country you are from and it’s generally known as the War of the Three Kingdoms given that the English part only occurred in England.
The English portion was a direct knock on from the Bishops Wars against Scotland.
Most importantly, Cromwell is well remembered by many as the genocidal religious lunatic he was.
Rorydinho@reddit
It wasn’t very civil
Sea_Chemistry7487@reddit
The average Brit doesn't think or feel about it at all.
Egregious67@reddit
Im Scottish, wish I had been there to see the fight 😄
andytimms67@reddit
Ultimately irrelevant.. While Parliamentarian victory stopped the move toward an absolute monarchy, the resulting republic often became just as oppressive as the rule they fought against, leading to the return of the monarchy. Cromwell was a nut job and the wrong man for the job… feckin idiot wanted to ban Christmas, football and any sort of celebration..
Commercial-Tomato205@reddit
Fun fact - that may already have been mentioned in comments - for many, many years, The English Civil War was kept off the school curriculum by order of royal family.
thecheamtickler@reddit
I'm still fairly angry about it.
Zestyclose-Turn-3576@reddit
My best thought is that two ex-pupils from the school my kids went to later went on to sign the death warrant of Charles I. That's proper history.
blahblahblahtaraa@reddit
One does not think about it!
Go1gotha@reddit
I got an A-Level in history at college, but I'm Scottish and so don't give a shite about the English anything.
Please don't confuse British with English, and I won't confuse you with Mexicans.
Round_Bookkeeper_887@reddit (OP)
Gotcha. I know the isle of Britain includes Wales and Scotland and not just England. But the English civil war did involve Scotland, so I figured it would be worth asking you guys as well
Go1gotha@reddit
Ireland too, but it was just business as usual for us Scots; England comes along, takes over for a wee while. Repeat.
trevpr1@reddit
The "average," Brit probably doesn't know much about it. I live in Preston and hardly anyone I have talked to over the years at work even knows that this was the site of the last battle of that war.
Silly_Ant_9037@reddit
The Puritans banned mince pies, and you expect us to support them?
HollsHolls@reddit
The… english… civil war?
Vwyon_Dubois@reddit
As a Scot, really don't care
Snoo-37429@reddit
We usually don't think about it tbh, it doesn't really feel very relevant I guess
marieascot@reddit
I think the Life of Charles II would make a great high budget series like The Queen.
A dramatic near assassination of his Grandfather an Guy Fawkes.
Charles II is born and treated like a deity. The world is on the cusp of the enlightnment.
Charles I's excessive arrogance and unsuccessful war in France.
The rise of Oliver Cromwell and the English Civil War. Many locations, many battles using swords, guns and castles exploding. Heroic tales of bravery. The analogy of the UK being divided by those wanting close ties to Europe and those who don't dividing families.
The defeat at the Battle of Worcester.
The escape of Charles II, disguised as a servant, and hiding in the Royal Oak at Boscabel surviving by metres. Being a servant to a brave lady and escaping across the river Severn.
His exile in Holland.
The court room drama trial of Charles I and beheading.
The excesses of Oliver Cormwell in a populist movement.
The restoration of the monarchy.
Charles II's womanising and Nell Gwyn the orange seller and numerous mistresses.
The great fire of London and Samuel Peeps.
The great plague and lockdowns.
The founding of the Royal Society and early scientists plus enlightenment. He founded The Royal Observatory and chose to have Thomas Tompion build two accurate clocks there which is now the basis of all time measurement for the world from then on wards as GMT.
Dramatic murders, wars, explosions, sex, royalty, being on the run, major disasters, plagues.
He is responsible for most of the famous pub names, The Royal Oak, The Kings Head, The Black Boy.
marieascot@reddit
If I would doing the series I would draw analogies to Brexit and Boris Johnson being like Cromwell.
The plague being like COVID.
Charles I storming the parliament and arresting the MPs being like the storming of the senate.
The ceremony of Black Rod having the door closed on the monarchy being a reminder to everyone to never have that happen again. The legislature must be independent from the head of state The executive cannot command the elected chamber, Democratic legitimacy comes from the people, not inherited authority
This was started during the very end of his reign.
marieascot@reddit
Oh and fantastic costumes too.
No-Reward8036@reddit
It was an English civil war, so nothing to do with Britain. Most Scots don't think about it at all.
Sonarthebat@reddit
Nothing, tbh.
Pristine-Account8384@reddit
All I know is Cromwell was very popular with the Irish...
Heat_Sad@reddit
Covered it in school many years ago, haven’t thought about it since
Desperate_Dinner_307@reddit
Annoyingly, all my school history was about American history, not British. So I know all about the JFK assassination, Vietnam, etc. But couldn't tell you shit about the English Civil War. I know most my English history through my own interests, reading and watching documentaries etc.
CanOfPenisJuice@reddit
90% of the questions that are "what does the average brit think of (insert historic event in either this or another country)?" can be answered simply with, ""we don't".
I dont think its through intent of ignorance or a blasé approach to history, its just whatever event you're asking about is one of thousands that is part of our grest, good, bad and outright shitty at times history. So yeah, we didn't personally do it so why would we be particularly proud or ashamed of whatever?
We're probably pretty progressive as a country because we have too much we could dwell on and so don't. We focus moreso on the here and now. And try to take lessons from the past til its just a fundamental part of the way we are.
Less_Duty7681@reddit
It doesn't interest me, but then I'm not an English Brit.
abyssal-isopod86@reddit
Which one?
Most of us don't care.
CoyoteMajor@reddit
It was an essential part of our journey towards a constitutional monarchy. King Charles I truly believed in the concept of The Divine Rights of Kings and attempted to behave as an Absolute Monarch.
His eventual defeat and the following Commonwealth before the restoration of the monarchy were essential footsteps with reducing the power of the throne and increasing Parliament’s authority.
I could write pages on this. Credentials….BA (Hons) History/Archaeology Winton 1993
followrule1@reddit
We don't. Apart from occasionally mentioning a local story about either a battle or an army.
Possibly something about the king staying in a local inn on the way to or from a battle.
We've had so many battles and wars both domestic and foreign they blur together and most of us just know little bits.
OR We have a few local churches or old buildings with a blue circle saying how on this day in history half a dozen men fought off an attacking forces from the bell tower or something.
ekows10@reddit
I was Baptised in a church where the font was cracked by a pissed Royalist hiding from some of Cromwell's lot. The door still had the burn marks where they had tried burning him out.
Silly_Hurry_2795@reddit
Which one?
Abject-Language7527@reddit
It feels like a warm-up for what's coming.
PresidentPopcorn@reddit
We covered it on high school history but it didn't interest me. I like history but some of it bores me.
platypuss1871@reddit
Which one?
spinningdice@reddit
We tend to think more about the War of Roses up here in Yorkshire, but mostly in a jokey mock rivalry kind of way.
I don't think either are mentioned often though, we've had a fair few civil wars over the years...
Kernowyon-101@reddit
As a Cornishman: betrayed. The one and only time we prop up a king, 100yrs later they take away our Stannary Parliament and autonomy.
Won’t make that mistake again.
After the Prayer Book rebellion, An Gof and an Army we raised for the Jacobites, we should have known better.
Kernow Bys Vyken.
Cymru am Byth.
HarketSavoy@reddit
Until very recently, didn’t know, didn’t care. Then started watching Horrible Histories and the songs and I was swept in. The you start connecting events and people, it starts to come alive.
GothicJay@reddit
I don't think any modern Brit would identify with either side. That said, I am glad it happened. Both Charles I and Oliver Cromwell were assholes and whatever your political standpoint we can be glad both were punished for their extreme views.
The country we ended up with when it was all over with was better than the one we had before. That's the takeaway if we have one at all.
theamazingtypo@reddit
I rarely think of it although my town was heavily involved in it. It was a royalist stronghold besieged by parliamentarians
fluffyfluffscarf28@reddit
Colchester too?
Annual-Delay1107@reddit
TIL the benighted parts of south Essex were subject to actual battles in the Civil War. We wouldn't have stood for that sort of nonsense in North Essex.
theamazingtypo@reddit
Skipton North Yorkshire. Lady Anne Clifford had the castle and she was loyal to the crown
Internal_Rise2658@reddit
No feelings. No thoughts.
qualityvote2@reddit
Hello u/Round_Bookkeeper_887! Welcome to r/AskABrit!
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West_Inside_3112@reddit
Although Roundhead as username would be more fitting, no?
Ziyaadjam@reddit
That Monty Python song seemed to have covered everything about the English Civil War for me
GothicJay@reddit
Was at first.. Only.. MP for Huntingdon.. But then...
SteveBuildsAlexaApps@reddit
A bunch of cunts vs a bunch of other cunts.
andyd151@reddit
We’ve had so many wars
Hammer_Pain@reddit
Shame we let the parasite aristocratic class back.
Severe-Industry-2717@reddit
War of the Roses, an earlier civil war leading to the rise of the Tudor Dynasty was far more interesting than the civil war.
benthelampy@reddit
it's pretty much "meh" roundheads fought the cavaliers, roundheads won for a bit, cavaliers prevailed. Kingdom reestablished, no change but some broken castles
Barry_Umenema@reddit
No change, only the sovereignty of parliament over the monarch
Agreeable_Archer_210@reddit
I would guess most people wouldn’t know which side is which (i.e. if you polled 100 people at random less than 75% would get the right answer).
Twid-1@reddit
The rounheads won, killed the king, installed their own 'king' as Lord Protector. When he died five years later, parliament decided to invite the old king's son back from France (where he'd fled) and restored the throne, but with diminished power and parliament as the ultimate power. Is that the cavaliers prevailing? It's more parliament prevailing, but not having a good idea of how to replace Cromwell when he eventually died.
Barry_Umenema@reddit
I think it's fantastic that we don't have a monarch like Charles I, or Cromwell any more. Cromwell was just as bad of a monarch as Charlie boy.
Kickitoff1902@reddit
Wish we'd never reinstated the monarchy at all. Parasites.
Wonderful_Discount59@reddit
As a kid, I hated Cromwell, because he blew up our local castle.
Now I know that there are better things to hate him for.
At the same time, he and his Roundheads were instrumental in breaking the power of absolute monarchy, which can only be a good thing.
If not for that, we would likely have either retained a much more authoritarian monarchy, or had a later, much bloodier French-style revolution, or both.
Cornish-Giant@reddit
It's not really taught in schools so people aren't really aware of it. It was also part of a wider conflict with Ireland and Scotland which is generally called the War of the Three Kingdoms, its also been called the War of the Five Nations when the Welsh and Cornish are included. It does have relevance today in my opinion, but that relevance isn't understood by most people because they don't know enough about it.
Boleyn01@reddit
It was a long time ago. I don’t think most Brits have a “side”. I certainly don’t.
Honestly it’s interesting more from a perspective of “how did we get here?” I’m glad it happened as the divine right of kings needed challenging and parliament needed more power. I prefer a constitutional monarchy to an absolute one. But I am also glad the puritans were kicked out because they sucked.
So if you sent me back in time I would not change a thing and just let it play out.
gowcog@reddit
Our Civil war was a long long time ago , fascinating history but the difference between 170 years ago and almost 400 years probably shows a real difference over attitudes
No-Veterinarian-3916@reddit
My take is that King Charles I was an arse and deserved to be killed. He caused it.
It's better perhaps to call it the Wars of the Three Kingdoms. And Charles's actions triggered all of his three kingdoms to rebel against him in some form.
I'm definitely team Roundhead. I don't care if they were Puritan or "joyless". What was important was the sound governance of the country. King Charles aggravated the English parliament and pushed the Anglican Prayer Book on Scotland. And even the Irish went from his direct rule to start the Irish Confederacy.
He then, after losing the First Civil War, connived and got the Scots to invade and he lost. He thus deserved to die.
I_ALWAYS_UPVOTE_CATS@reddit
I daresay most people know very little about it. I mean this with no disrespect, but one of the things that can be quite hard for Americans to understand is just how much history England (and of course the UK) has. There are whole chapters that would be a big deal if they happened to you guys (your own Civil War, for instance) but over here people barely think about them.
At the end of the day, the Parliamentarians won, so history has been more sympathetic to their side of things. Cromwell's victory did once and for all cement the supremacy of Parliament in a way that hasn't really been challenged since - the last monarch to refuse to sign a bill was Anne in the 1700s, and she was ultimately told to Foxtrot Oscar. So, it was indeed an important milestone for our democracy - there's a statue of Cromwell in London, and Charles I is widely remembered as a poor monarch.
However, we Brits are an odd mixture. We like being a parliamentary democracy, but in general there's still widespread support for the existence of the monarchy (recall that reddit is not representative of most people). I'm generalising again, but Brits tend to prefer incremental, uncodified evolution as opposed to sudden, drastic change, and beheading one's own monarch could be seen as 'not the British way'. Indeed, his execution was even controversial at the time, and his son Charles II - the first king after the Restoration - is very fondly remembered. Through the process of gradual evolution, we have developed a system that is arguably far less vulnerable to a tyrannical executive than your own presidential system.
Perhaps if Cromwell hadn't himself been such a tyrant, his republic would have endured, but in the end the strength of feeling against his rule was so great that his body was posthumously beheaded. These days, he's remembered as an important figure but overall we are glad that the Monarchy was restored. He hated Catholics, and his cruelty in Ireland was something else.
naterandnurture@reddit
Deadass didnt even know we had a civil war 🫣
tmstms@reddit
In general, they don't think about it much. It was not 'impactful on the psyche' in the same way- first because it was now almost 400 years ago, and second because struggles between the state/ the monarch v the nobles/ notables/ commons happen for hundreds of years before that, definitely in Tudor times, but also 1215-6, maybe 1066.
Personally, I grew up in Cromwell-land and he was a local hero, also the whole of E Anglia was quite Parliamentarian, but even though I was obsessed with the Civil War during my early teens, it still feels quite remote now.
In most cases, the inhabitants of the time did not have strong allegiances, they just got drawn in, and this also explains the settlement- the losing Royalists often got away with just paying fines.
MovingTarget2112@reddit
Errr…
Charles I tried to prorogue Parliament and that kicked off the Civil War. I would have been on the side of the Parliamentarians but the popular revolution was betrayed when Fairfax crushed the nascent pro-democracy leadership within the New Model Army, then Cromwell went full authoritarian and was directly or indirectly responsible for killing or displacing 40% of the population of Ireland.
Adrian69702016@reddit
I think it was a low point in English history.
AlucardVTep3s@reddit
I don’t even think I was taught about it during school. I remember them showing us the advert for 1066 though. We learnt more about Tudors, Stuarts, Guy Fawkes, Fire of London and a lot of other Victorian stuff.
Funnily enough my primary school was built during the Victorian era, very high ceilings and those cast iron radiators that I cracked my head on once.
TheyStillArentReal@reddit
No one cares, the UK has so much history it's barely a blip and we just moved on.
I appreciate for the US your civil war was much more recent in historical terms. To put it in context the American civil was was about 160 years ago, the secondary school (High school) I went to is 477 years old (and it wasnt some famous private one either, just common)!
SpecialistSandwich@reddit
And we don't even care about the American civil war either 😆
f8rter@reddit
My local pub is 900 years old
Familiar_Radish_6273@reddit
Our local church is 1000 years old
garyisaunicorn@reddit
My house was built before the declaration of independence 😂
DeniseGunn@reddit
My parents in laws house was from the 13th century.
quartersessions@reddit
Among other things, that it was far more than just English. From a Scottish perspective, the stuff going on up here was pretty central to it all (not to mention Charles I being a Scotsman). That being said, I think the Glorious Revolution is the far more important bit of history in learning about how our country came to be.
I'm pretty much a cavalier by instinct. The Parliamentarians created anarchy and ruled over it by bloodshed. But you can see the pressures that created the situation and understand how it became virtually inevitable.
Scottie99@reddit
Fascinating times and makes for excellent reading. For the average man at the time you were probably co-opted into the first army to raised where you lived.
jock_fae_leith@reddit
You won't make sense of it unless you study it as the Wars of the Three Kingdoms. The English Civil Wars - there were two - are only part of it.
AnneKnightley@reddit
We did a couple of lessons in high school - it was basically “these guys had opposing views, fought and one side won”. I think it’s interesting from a historical perspective and how it’s helped shape our country but don’t tend to think much about it otherwise. We probably should cover it more really especially relating to impact on the different countries within the UK.
I sympathise with the general idea of removing an absolute monarchy but ultimately Cromwell pretty much became “king” so I feel like the democratic part of that is a bit weak really.
Terrible-Schedule-89@reddit
God bless King Charles!
LondonLeather@reddit
My Cavalier King Charles Spaniels have had very firm views, Charles I popped his head out of the window and...
maceion@reddit
No one thinks about it. It was a very minor 'civil war' among at least 20 to 30 internal wars. Remember Scotland - England -Ireland were at constant war for about 1700 years after the Roman Military occupation was over.
ALittleNightMusing@reddit
In fairness it was a very VERY major conflict at the time - a greater proportion of the population died in the English Civil War than in both World Wars put together.
It's just that it's not had a huge impact on the popular psyche (although arguably, hobbling the power of the monarchy and extending parliament's reach is what enabled political stability ever since, and let us avoid French Revolution-style nastiness, so in that sense it was quite important!)
MacViller@reddit
It also put us off religious extremism for a good while. People forget that we used to have a similar type of ultra puritan Calvinist strain or Christianity that we see in America even until today. The fact that we went down a wish washy non committal Anglicanism where you don't really commit to sides of big arguments, keep religion to yourself and generally don't take it that seriously is because we were so scarred by the English Civil war.
Special_Corgi1110@reddit
Dudley (cavaliers) has still not forgiven Birmingham (roundheads) for destroying our castle. But we don't normally think about it.
Pristine-Pie-5122@reddit
Im 39 and you ll find most my age dont really think about it or know much about it as it isnt spoken about in the uk of taught at school. I watch outlander and have only kind of thought about it since watching that.
Prestigious_Chart774@reddit
It’s interesting how the Civil War looms so large in American historical imagination but barely registers here beyond a vague “Cromwell did something.” Most people I know couldn’t pick a side if their life depended on it, it’s just ancient history to us.
toonlass91@reddit
I studied the civil war for part of my history a level. Can’t remember loads but it’s not as straight forward as you seem to portray. Bad and good on both sides
Gornal-Annie6133@reddit
I have no sympathy for the parliamentarians, the bastards, destroyed our castle. I live in the Black Country and we supported the crown, the Brummies supported Cromwell.
When the commonwealth games were held in Birmingham, my husband refused to watch it, due to the destruction of our castle. I pointed out that it was over 300 years ago but his response was, “I’ve got a long memory and Black Country lives matter.”
MzHmmz@reddit
Unless they're very interested in history I'd say the average Brit doesn't have many thoughts or feelings about the English civil war. Most people are aware of it, but are unlikely to have many strong opinions about who was right or wrong. And it definitely doesn't have any significant effect on modern British politics apart from the way it affected our laws and customs, such as the fact we're a parliamentary constitutional monarchy.
It's very different to the American civil war in that sense, probably in large part due to how long ago it was. There are Americans still alive who had parents or grandparents who lived through the civil war or the time immediately after it, so inevitably it will have a bigger impact on the modern American psyche than the English civil war, which was many generations ago and feels like ancient history to most of us.
MzHmmz@reddit
Probably also worth noting that we have so much history in the UK that the civil war is just one little part of a rich tapestry going back thousands of years. That means any one single period of history, no matter how significant it's impact may have been, doesn't tend to grab people's attention in the same way aspects of American history might do, simply because the number of major events in American history is so much smaller.
CPD1960@reddit
They don’t
Tall-Reputation-9519@reddit
We called Danny a roundhead at school because he was circumcised if that counts?
SensitivePotato44@reddit
It’s not seen as a nation defining event like the US civil war ( even though it is). Plus it was about 200 years earlier and we have a lot of history.
Cardabella@reddit
Our history curriculum covers about 20 centuries albeit with knowledge gaps and glossing over some brutal episodes. It was just one brief conflict of many. We spent a lot longer on the Romans and saxons and Normans and vikings centuries and more recent events.
Alternative-Ad-2312@reddit
It's a fascinating period but we don't think of it may ch because things stabilised in a relatively short space of time.
What is interesting to me though is that ostensibly the 'right' side won, but absolute power corrupts absolutely and we very much had a 'be careful what you wish for' moment and Cromwell and his cronies truly went off the deep end.
There's a real lesson learned there and perhaps why by and large England and the rest of the UK have had less revolutionary tendencies or been more reticent to elect extremists than a lot of our European neighbours - Spain, France, Germany, Italy, Russia all went off the deep end at various times in much more recent history.
Traditional-Leg-1122@reddit
I’ve heard of that Oliver Cromwell chap before.
Absolutely no idea about it all beyond that which makes me feel quite embarrassed to be honest. Should probably do a bit of reading.
Reesno33@reddit
You have to remember that we have over a 1000 years of history, so one war in one time period isn't that significant. My town was actually burnt down during the civil war and still people don't really care about it that much because we have pubs that are 400 years old still open today, buildings and monuments everywhere, theirs so much history here.
meestah_meelah@reddit
The vast majority of people never think about it. The Irish on the other hand are still rabid about Cromwell to this day because of his attempted genocide on them. Something to do with them being heretics IDK.
ConsciousProgram1494@reddit
It was one of those events that shaped the world. It was known as "The world turned upside down" - and it affected everything that came after it.
rising_then_falling@reddit
They don't, it's too long ago.
It was a very big, important civil war that killed very large numbers of people (more per capita than WWI) and radically changed the direction of the country, essentially putting an end to absolute monarchy.
However, it all happened too long ago for people to care. A tiny number of ultra-protestant zealots probably regard Cromwell as a hero, and an even tinier number of anti monarchist zealots might too. Everyone else thinks he was a miserable murding puritanical bastard who happened to like democracy.
I've met a few elderly Brits who regards Cromwell as a hero of the common man and a great moderniser, but that's an increasingly unpopular opinion (although he was in fact a highly competent moderniser).
Even fewer people care about Charles I (generally seen as an arrogant twit to deserved his fate) or Charles II (a great king who let puritanism wither while just about managing to not to trigger any more religious strife, but mainly seen as a party animal and womaniser (which he also was) )
spidertattootim@reddit
I barely understand it, never mind have any feelings about it. It might as well have happened in a different country, for all the relevance it (to my knowledge) has to me.
Travels_Belly@reddit
Honestly nobody cares. It happened so long ago. The U.S wasn't even a country.
Snoot_Booper_101@reddit
I don't think modern Brits feel particularly aligned with either side in that conflict. Mostly this will be down to apathy or lack of interest in history, but even those who are interested probably aren't wholly invested in one side over the other. Anyone who was would probably be considered a bit odd.
I think that most Brits are comfortable with the current state of constitutional monarchy. That really only exists because the parliamentarians won the civil war followed by backsliding into a more limited form of monarchy afterwards. So it's kind of embedded in us to be somewhat on the fence about the war itself.
Wubbleyou_@reddit
I think Sir Bevil Grenville’s death after the Battle of Lansdown outside of Bath lost it for the Royalists.
Spirited_Pookie12@reddit
Probably bias as I've grown up part of the Sealed Knot who re-enact the English Civil War.
Most people don't think about it, it has no impact on daily life and although there are plaques and museums about with the history and information, you have to go and look for it.
Re-enactments can give history life again, it makes it slightly more tangible although we have modern H&S rules that we must follow to keep everyone safe.
Personally my regiment fights for the King, but my father's side of the family is a direct descendent of Oliver Cromwell which I found quite ironic. History has always been a large hobby in my family as my uncle and grandfather sought this information long before I was here.
SouthOk7605@reddit
Learnt about it in school but didn’t spend a lot of time on it. Don’t think about it most of the time except when a local village has an Oak Apple Day. It’s actually linked to when his son Charles II came back to the throne and a large branch of an oak tree is carried to the top of the local church celebrates that return. Mainly use it as an excuse to enjoy a drink at the pub.
Chromeballs@reddit
Probably a necessary event in the development toward democracy, Id guess not much more, on average. It was bloody and became extremely harmful, as war does. My view was, similar to the first war of the French revolution, the first leader turned out to be a monster so it was a gradual evolution from Royal monsters and their religious purges, subjectification of the people etc at the height of religious power conflict (arguably). Personally never related to any of it but sympathised with the people overthrowing tyranny and possible inevitability.
Zealousideal-Might85@reddit
I used to think about it a lot as a kid. That was only because my parents completely disagreed about whether Cromwell was a traitor and I had worked out that if I brought up the civil war when I was being told off, they would stop yelling at me and start arguing with each other.
Every-Somewhere-6971@reddit
Americans still place a lot of importance on which side their family was on in their civil war. Most people in the UK couldnt tell you or care.
My very distant relatives played signifficant parts in the civil war. I live in the city where the first and last battles took place, so it gets mentioned in the local news a lot, but it's not important.
evelynsmee@reddit
The concept of there being a "right side" and a "wrong side" is very much rooted in post WWII American propaganda via films. Goodies and baddies. Most conflicts don't work like that.
Charles and Cromwell were both cunts. In summary 😂
But to answer the question, I very much doubt the average person thinks about the civil war at all. But in England the teaching of it doesn't include the wider UK involvement and impact which is, IMO, a fundamentally wrong way to educate everyone.
Double-elephant@reddit
It perhaps means that we don’t much care for becoming a republic? As in, tried that, didn’t like it.
Bipolar03@reddit
No one feels/thinks about it. Well I don't. No one liked Cornwell, nor Charles I. We just remember that. Oh and why Charles was beheaded. But you only learn that briefly in school.
https://youtu.be/jBCxE8tUIWM?si=EIw__U_rHIc_5WC1
This video is hilarious
AkihabaraWasteland@reddit
The average Brit would not know anything about it. They may know of its existence, but not the belligerents or reasons. Also, don't forget that the English only make up a part, albeit large part, of the entire British population. In Scotland we know far more about our own history than England's.
I think you should reframe this question asking what the average, middle or upper class university educated, historically interested white male over the age of 35 thinks.
Foundation_Wrong@reddit
Most don’t think about it at all. Honestly I don’t. They might know a bit because they watch Horrible Histories. However it’s not the kind of thing we talk about generally. Football, the weather and so on are the usual things that we discuss
Itallachesnow@reddit
I do think about it especially because of American politics right now. Like most civil wars it was cruel , brutal and reinforced divisions in society. While the crown was reinstated after so much bloodshed, the whole idea of the divine right of kings was upended giving parliament supremacy, a position that was reinforced over the next century. While deference to royalty was maintained through tradition and ritual, Kings and Queens became ornamental in their statute powers. The Prime Minister has the most absolute power but only if they have parliamentary support. Parliament's power is always presented as acting with the crowns authority. It's the classic British compromise; Yes we have a King/Queen in a tradition that goes back to the 10th Century but our democratic parliament, whatever its imperfections, has the power.
mighty3mperor@reddit
It's complicated.
I'm a quarter English and that side is from a hotbed of Puritanism that supported Cromwell (across the family tree you see the names all go Old Testament). I even have a relative who wrote the third best history of the English Civil War in Chester. I'm not aware of any evidence that my ancestors fought in the war but some likely did. There is documentation of them selling horses to the Roundheads.
However, I am three quarters Irish Catholic and, while records don't go that far back for ordinary folk, I imagine we did badly under Cromwell.
court996@reddit
The way I look at it was that we got our civil war over and done with earlier than most other countries. The religious nut jobs went to North America and decided another go might be a good idea so after revolting they had another go. From what I can see they are still a bit antsy.
Our civil war made a right mess of Basing House and Corfe Castle which was unfortunate - good job we didn’t really need these sort of fortifications anymore as we had our air force to put off potential invaders (yes, that’s you Mr Hitler).
Sea_Pomegranate8229@reddit
Ancient history. Elites arguing amongst each other and the poor paying the price. Yes, there was gradual political change as a result but the poor got military service and higher taxes in the short term. In reality it is an uninteresting piece of history for me. There is a religious nut tie-in with the Pilgrim Fathers, if you are interested in that. Conclusion would be that it is of no passing interest unless one is discussing political history or settling of the colonies.
ikiteimasu@reddit
The average? Absolutely nothing whatsoever.
Fantastic-Speech-438@reddit
It was a long time ago so we don't think about it.
Unlike Spain, where their civil war continues to have some effects on Spanish politics.
Mrszombiecookies@reddit
There was an English civil war?
Fuzzy_Possibility@reddit
I feel like I think about the war of the roses more than the civil war and I only remember thinking about that as we drove through Bosworth so ended up in a random conversation about it.
kreemy_kurds@reddit
Probably more then the average person because when I walk around Worcester there's lots of history about it plus for a course I did a while back it was to find something that had happened in your city that changed history.
cardbourdbox@reddit
I'm more parliamentarian though mostly i think its just a bunch of stuff that happened. I prefer the Nepolonic war short version no strong feelings.
BenHippynet@reddit
I can honestly say I’ve never given a thought to it in my 46 years on this earth.
CauseOptimal8501@reddit
Just going through the comments, thinking some areas were affected by it more than others. Certain towns and cities along the parliamentary and royalist borders got the brunt of damage that is this seen today. If you have just a small amount of curiosity as to what the castle on the hill looks smashed, you’ll be reminded of it every time you see it.
If not, it was 400 years ago. At that point it’s academia
Mdl8922@reddit
Honestly, in my almost 40 years, I've never thought about it at all. Don't know who won, who lost, what the war was even about.
FriendlyGrab3217@reddit
I feel like more countries should've learned from our example.
Civil war over something which, looking back, wasn't worth what happened next.
Years of economic collapse and massacring civilians. Big close which nearly noone thought would happen, which doesn't actually end things and the war continues. When it does finally end, military dictatorship far worse than what was there before.
We looked at this, went "should we maybe not settle constitutional issues with full scale war?", and went back to the previous arrangement with slightly stricter T&Cs.
I'd rather progress be at a slower pace and no-one ending up dead for what kind of hat they wear.
Upbeat_Branch_4231@reddit
Civil War? Mostly disinterest. Another group of religious nutters took power briefly, oppressed the people terribly, and then got thrown out of power by the people and the King reinstated.
RiverTadpolez@reddit
As a Scottish person, I know absolutely nothing about it whatsoever.
L00ny-T00n@reddit
It very much happened in Scotland as well, by proxy. You must have heard of the covenanters? Cromwell took it to the extreme in Ireland as well
RiverTadpolez@reddit
We would probably learn about such things actually happening in Scotland within the context of the Scottish Reformation but I don't remember hearing anything about the English Civil War other than a passing mention. We don't learn about English history in Scottish schools for the most part.
L00ny-T00n@reddit
We didn't learn about any of the civil wars in English schools. I guess that's in case any republicans get any ideas. But apparently it's umbrella term is the war of the 3 kingdoms
RiverTadpolez@reddit
Apparently, it has been part of the National 5 curriculum for a few years now but it wasn't part of the Standard Grade history curriculum when I went to school, so only very young Scottish people will have been taught about it in school (if they choose to take history for their National 5s).
TheAncientGeek@reddit
The Irish hate Cromwell to this day
Slyspy006@reddit
It could be argued that Scotland was where it all began, with the Bishops' Wars.
Maleficent-Win-6520@reddit
The correct side won. Unfortunately the landed gentry decided to bring back a monarchy that the people didn’t want.
Motor-Command-2680@reddit
It was a tragedy. I am reminded of it most days when i walk into town and see the remains of the former castle that was decommissioned by Parliamentarians. Every now and again I'll find a musket ball or coin of Charles I while metal detecting also.
We didn't really touch on it much in school though. If we did it must of been brief as i don't remember much about it.
CauseOptimal8501@reddit
Yes! I live at the Welsh border where there were many Royalist and Parliamentarian skirmishes and castle/ city sieges. We see the ruins and artefacts from these times everywhere (a lot of these are in local museums as well). One I found interesting at school, as it was closer to me, was the battle of Stow on the wold, the siege of Gloucester and the siege of Raglan Castle.
So many castles ruined and old city defences (Roman) were destroyed after to ensure no one could rise up defensively again. Very sad for us today
dial424689@reddit
I feel the same way I do about a lot of civil war, and war in general (I apply this most often to the War of the Roses, but I would because I’m from York). Which is:
Rich people wanted power, so they used poor people to fight each other to prove their power. It’s sad and brutal and neither side were truly thinking about the consequences or best case outcome for the majority of the population.
Shawn_The_Sheep777@reddit
I studied history until I was 18 but never studied this period at school. That shows you how important it is to us Brits. So I really don’t know anything about it.
selfawareusername@reddit
Its pretty old history at this point. Over simplifying this massively
Positives
- Parliament gained a lot of power and since then we have steadily gained more rights as an average person. It made it possible to give the average person the right to vote and get rid of terrible laws in the long term without the need for large scale revolution in England
Negatives
- Cromwell's actions in Ireland
- Cromwell was essentially a Dictator and tried to have his son inherit his position as well as being a brutal, oppressive regime
- They BANNED CHRISTMAS
It is interesting history and had important long term effects but we also restored the monarchy not that long after Cromwell died
Mammyjam@reddit
I'm a history grad, tbh the 'English' Civil War isn't even in my top 3 English/British civil wars. The Anarchy, Wars of the Roses and the 1745 Jacobite uprising
Opposite_Funny9958@reddit
It was so very long ago few folks care …..and there was no good side/bad side…..just two very awful sides.
Impossible_Theme_148@reddit
The average Brit doesn't think about the English Civil War at all, and definitely doesn't feel anything about it
Even for those of us who are interested in history - it's an academic topic
Things that are more than a hundred years old don't tend to elicit that much of an emotional response
Academically I'd be surprised if most people didn't veer towards supporting the parliamentary side as the Royalist side was underpinned by such archaic elements - I don't think you'll find any great support for the divine right of Kings anymore for example
I'm sure there are people with strong opinions but I'd expect them to be vanishingly rare
Round_Bookkeeper_887@reddit (OP)
History should be treated academically, I think, even if it's hard to be unbiased. That's probably a healthy perspective to have actually.
But it seems like Americans are not necessarily more aware of their history but often more proud or emotional about it than it seems Brits are (from what I can tell, that is -- I am an outsider after all). I remember growing up, we were taught that the Puritans were pushing for their own religious freedom, fleeing the tyranny of the king in search of a better life and all that (we were also taught that they weren't entirely about religious freedom, but still). American history regularly is taught in a heroic sort of way and you will hear politicians gush about Washington, Lincoln, the Declaration of Indepence, the first Thanksgiving, etc. because it wins them political brownie points.
But it seems like Brits on Reddit do not care at all. I can respect that
James20985@reddit
I seem to remember that the puritans weren't so much as leaving for freedom as kicked out for being too puritanical and dull.
Odd_Sir4792@reddit
I'm fairly sure they didn't leave for religious freedom at all - they were opposed to religious freedom and wanted to mandate their own brand of repressive theocracy but weren't allowed to back home.
James20985@reddit
Sorry I wasn't clear, they left so they could be free to observe their religion in the way they wanted.
Round_Bookkeeper_887@reddit (OP)
My point is that it's often taught that way, not that it's an accurate statement
KookyPlasticHead@reddit
Bear in mind there is an awful lot of documented history in Britain. Some people will be interested in the Roman occupation, some the Viking invasion period and so on. The English civil war era is one small period of history. Can't squeeze everything into school curriculums.
DeniseGunn@reddit
I think this is exactly what it is. We have so MUCH history that the civil war was just one small part. I have friends who are fascinated by the Stone Age and Bronze Age for example. But it’s not just England, my first husbands surname is from a Scottish clan that originated from a Viking who was the grandson of the renowned Sweyn Asleifsson. My second husband was Welsh from the Rhonda valley and carried with him all the history of his people. We are all the UK and most educated people will have specific interests about all the eras that make up our island.
NaomiT29@reddit
As others have said, there is a LOT of recorded history in the UK. Not just in timeframe but also how much happened here or overseas with our involvement. The UK's nickname used to be 'The Invaded Isle' and I think that rather sums up the dry British sense of humour when it comes to things we can't change; very much "Ah well, what's done is done! What's for tea* then?"
It's also just a practical attitude towards an academic topic rather than a romanticised one such as the US seems to have - which I have no doubt has always been intentional. Romanticising the 'founding' of the US and its goings on thereafter is a useful tool when you want to instill a deep-rooted sense of patriotism (which often seems to border on jingoism even amongst fairly rational people) in a bid to ensure the masses remain on side.
*tea in this context meaning dinner, not a cup of tea!
asmiggs@reddit
British history is a series of compromises, the Civil war established Parliamentary supremacy, ended once and ended the divine right of Kings, but the victors wanted to establish a divine right of Kings. Presenting these dirty compromises and failed promises as some kind of grand narrative and historic victory would be a bit weird and frankly entirely transparent to anyone paying any sort of attention.
Orange_Codex@reddit
US-style history - stirring emotional narratives, clear-cut good versus evil, morality tales that affirm state ideology... - is a legacy of our own medieval era. Read medieval chroniclers and you'll be reading the same thing. It became unpopular here (and on the continent) because of its association with, and reinforcement of, deeply regressive regimes that brought grave social ills and had to be overthrown.
WotanMjolnir@reddit
As 1066 And All That would have it, the Roundheads were Right but Repulsive, whilst the Cavaliers were Wrong but Wromantic
Gasguy9@reddit
This and the sealed knot loonies.
skrew86@reddit
It was largely about Protestantism vs Catholicism which I don't think has been as divisive in the US (apart from during the formation of US) as its been in UK.
Suspicious_Neck_5156@reddit
I thought I remembered being taught it was royalists vs parliamentarians, I didn’t realise there was a religious aspect to it, but I think I learned this in primary school, and have never been interested to look any further into it.
Deuce03@reddit
There was a religious element to it but it wasn't Protestant vs Catholic. Both sides were Protestants and neither side was particularly pro-Catholic. Where there was a difference, the royalists were a bit more moderate and pragmatic in dealing with Catholics. Parliament tended to favour Puritanism, a tendency which got more pronounced as the wars went on, whereas the king quite liked his churches to look nice and thought people should celebrate feast days etc.
But there was also a feedback loop in the period that said Catholic was absolutist and absolutism was Catholicism. Religious tensions were running super high because of the Thirty Years War. Charles (an absolutist) was therefore accused of being a closet Catholic (he wasn't) and his high-church tendencies were seen as being kind of Catholic and therefore evidence he was planning to enslave the British people. The actual war was triggered indirectly by religious stuff (in Scotland) but was really about questions like who should control the army and who got to appoint ministers and make policy.
During the civil wars, Catholics largely supported the king because to them he was the lesser of two evils. After the Civil Wars, Charles II tried to ease up on Catholic persecution. He had spent most of his exile in France (being nagged by his Catholic mother) and he was very grateful for the help he'd had from crypto-Catholics during his escape in 1651. Charles's brother James converted to Catholicism and Charles himself was possibly a crypto-Catholic. The real Protestant/Catholic clash happened in 1688/9 when James Catholic king was overthrown (for reasons largely, but not entirely, to do with his religion) and replaced by Protestants, also leading to a war in Ireland along the same lines.
pab6407@reddit
And just to complicate things William of Orange ( the Protestant King) had the backing of the Pope in his fight against the Catholic James II , also some of William’s troops were Catholic and some of James’s were Protestant
skrew86@reddit
Basically the civil war was right in the middle of the House of Stuarts reign. They were Catholic and wanted Britain to relax some of its anti Catholic laws, if not return to being a Catholic country. They way they went about it was undemocratic and angered Protestant Lords and landowners.
alcoholichobbit@reddit
Charles I was not Catholic, but he did have a Catholic Queen which may have influenced his stance towards Catholics.
thepioneeringlemming@reddit
Only in Ireland, and the Royalist Protestants allied with the Catholics against the Parliamemtarian Protestants.
skrew86@reddit
England too. Hull literally closed its gates on the King because he wanted to replace elected Protestants with Catholics. That was seen as a major starting point of the civil war
Round_Bookkeeper_887@reddit (OP)
Could you elaborate? Do you mean the civil war is divisive or the religious aspect? I'm curious about that. It has been vary divisive in the US historically
GingerWindsorSoup@reddit
The Protestant Puritans regarded the Church of England to be still too Catholic in its order ( bishops and priests vs ministers and Presbyterianism or Congregationalism), its liturgy (the Book of Common Prayer vs lengthy sermons and free prayer) its ceremonial and fittings (vestments, candles, incense, altars and stained glass, organs, paintings and statues) its teachings on the nature of salvation (Arminianism vs Calvinism). King Charles’ wife was also a French Roman Catholic which also fuelled their anger.
fluffyfluffscarf28@reddit
I'm assuming they mean religious division. The separation of Henry VIII from the Catholic Church to create the Protestant Church of England somewhat upset things over here for a while. The Reformation was kind of a big deal across Europe.
By the time the Puritans made their way to America, England was majority Protestant and had been for just over 100 years, so it would not have particularly affected the formation of the colonies.
just-visiting-3955@reddit
I was raised Anglican so I was vaguely taught the events of 1688 should be called the Glorious Revolution. Perhaps a Catholic might have thought of this as a Protestant insurrection or invasion? The Civil War of 1642 onwards was the precursor.
Because these were religious wars and thus divisive, they are little taught in schools or popular entertainment.
Answering your question, I don’t think of the English Civil war at all. I think of the French revolution more actually, as incredible cruelty and barbarity. Definitely on the Scarlet Pimpernel’s side. I still think of Nelson and the Royal Navy with pride; they stopped the victor of the French revolution, Emperor Napoleon, becoming dictator of the world. Nelson, and the army equivalent, Wellington, are still culturally relevant.
GingerWindsorSoup@reddit
The Protestant Puritans regarded the Church of England to be still too Catholic in its order ( bishops and priests vs ministers and Presbyterianism or Congregationalism), its liturgy (the Book of Common Prayer vs lengthy sermons and free prayer) its ceremonial and fittings (vestments, candles, incense, altars and stained glass, organs, paintings and statues) its teachings on the nature of salvation (Arminianism vs Calvinism). King Charles’ wife was also a French Roman Catholic which also fuelled their anger.
Berkulese@reddit
I mainly think about the damage it did to so many castles etc around the country. There are plenty of (tbh, still pretty amazing) ruins around the country, and their history usually ends with "and then Oliver Cromwell blew it up".
There wasn't really a right side. One government that was kinda out of line got replaced by another (with a much more modern military) that everyone hated; then afterwards things naturally shifted to a system somewhere in between the two.
Gwenfrewy@reddit
I don't think it is a topic that connects emotionally with English and Welsh people. In Scotland, Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland that can/will be different since the religious and political fall out were much greater and longer lasting.
One reason it doesn't emotionally resonate is that it is so long ago most people don't know who their ancestors were and what they did. If they can trace their family back that far it's not uncommon to find family members on both sides. For example two brothers who were cousins of my ancestors: one was a royal physician the other signed Charles I's death warrant. My ancestors very much kept their heads down and did not get involved.
HalfAgony-HalfHope@reddit
Broadly speaking, no one cares.
There's so much to British History, its a lot to take in and most of it was so long ago. Unless you're a particular history buff, something that happened 4 centuries ago doesnt occupy a lot of brain time.
miss_lottielou@reddit
I've not studied it, but see the civil war as a trousers of time (Pratchett) incident, alternate realities from that current state, and the difference it could be now. Richard Cromwell seems a footnote in history after his infamous father.
Otherwise not really.
AndrewHinds67@reddit
We don't because we live in the present, not the ancient past.
Actual_Cat4779@reddit
The average Brit doesn't, but there's an annual Levellers Day procession in Burford.
The Levellers and Diggers were leftwing factions on the parliamentary side, ultimately suppressed by their own side. The late Tony Benn (a socialist member of parliament for many years) would often talk about them.
Karla_Darktiger@reddit
I don't know much about it, so I don't really feel anything
KonkeyDongPrime@reddit
Did it at school. Don’t really care.
en70uk@reddit
Zero thoughts zero feelings
Enjoy history but this isn’t of that much interest
a_long_slow_goodbye@reddit
Most people won't even know Scotland and Ireland where involved. It was actually the Wars of the 3 Kingdoms, spanning several civil/wars and leading to the Glorious Revolution, where they installed Queen Mary II and her husband William III as monarchs. William and Mary never had children so her sister Anne became monarch and the original Acts of Union 1707 merging Scottish parliament with English happened under her reign. It wasn't till George 1st of Hannover was invited over, after Anne died, when parliamentary sovereignty was really cemented. The king no longer had personal rule.
Charles 1st was a Catholic absolutist monarch (personal rule), who had parliament dissolved several times. Raising and spending money without regard for law. Was parliament right to put him to trial for treason? From current perspective sure (maybe not a legal one) but back then a lot of people believed in the Divine Rights of Kings. Scotland and England had underwent Protestant Reformation so a Catholic King was already a no no, in addition to his absolutist tendencies. Scotland was mostly Presbyterian, at the time it was a separate Kingdom in personal union with Ireland and England. Where as England was Anglican and had more Catholic based traditions, which English puritans wanted to purge. Puritans where not keen on organised structured church hierarchy authority that the Presbyterians such as Church of Scotland and CoE had and in favour of local church authority. Puritans eventually got kicked to America.
The whole thing was in part an argument over the Divine right of Kings because Charles was as i said dissolving parliament. The crown derived it's authority from the Christian God to rule, rather than authority being delegated by parliament as it is now in our weird uncodified constitution.
Cromwell and the Commonwealth where no saint either. He was installed as Lord Protector, head of the government (to replace the king in all but name). He later forcibly dissolved parliament by military means, effectively creating a de jure military dictatorship where he could raise taxes and the like as he wished. His son Richard Cromwell only lasted less than a year as lord protector after his father died before resigning due to political instability and a dispute with the Army. Charles 1st son Charles II was made king in the restoration of the monarchy. Charles II had been king of Scotland separately while original Cromwell was Lord Protector, he was beat in the war and had to go on exile before being restored later.
TLDL; Both are horrible imho but it lead directly to parliamentary rule and eventually universal suffrage.
Mikon_Youji@reddit
I don't think I have ever even thought about it.
OllyDee@reddit
The average Brit doesn’t think about it, but for the record I think there were no good guys or bad guys in that war. An absolutist monarch vs. religious extremists. What we ended up with would end up with a theocratic dictatorship.
Probably my favourite period in history outside of what we’re not supposed to call the “dark ages”.
Fearless-Hedgehog661@reddit
No we are not supposed to call the English Civil Wars, plural, The Wars of the Three Kingdoms. The English Civil Wars, there were two, are still the English Civil Wars. Think of them as chapters in a book of the era, when there were linked conflicts taking place in Ireland and Scotland.
JE5573R@reddit
English Civil War??? When??? Where??? How???
I'm English and we didn't even study this in school.
Separate-Region2070@reddit
Apart from establishing the supremacy of parliament and finally consolidating 3 counties under one flag. It's basis from Protestant Puritanism led some brutal suppression of Catholicism. It established the 1689 bill of rights. Beyond thst is mostly academic. Daly the nationalists ignor the warnings about despotic rulers and the post victory propganda of a United Kingdom.
Greengrasses9@reddit
Most Brits don’t know much about it or think about it. Personally, I think the outcome was a key step on the path to the modern constitutional monarchy that we have now- all monarchs since at some level have known that Parliament executed Charles I, and the lesson is clear. And James II being chucked out later in the same century in the 1688 Glorious Revolution reinforced it.
I have wondered whether a hazy memory of the general dislike of the Cromwellian military dictatorship is one reason why it’s very rare for senior ex-military to go into politics in the UK, unlike in the US (Wellington in the 19th century being one of the very few exceptions).
Deuce03@reddit
It is not a major part of life or conversation. If most people think about it at all, there's an acceptance that the resolution was ultimately fudged like everything else in our constitution.
Most people who know a bit about it, if pushed, would probably say they believe Parliament was in the right, but there is at a public level an almost complete lack of understanding of what the issues in question actually were or who actually "won", even among those who have a rough idea of dates, personalities, etc. (For instance, "democracy" was not something either side was actually fighting for or even really thought was a good idea). I think people are also largely unaware that there were three Civil Wars in England from 1642 to 1651 (not counting wars in Ireland and Scotland) and that all of them were important in their own way, but that the sides involved changed and that the Parliamentarians who started the war in 1642 were not the winners in 1651.
In fact the decisive event in English history was not the Civil Wars themselves. Inasmuch as that was Parliament vs Absolute Monarchy, both sides lost, and we got an Absolute Dictatorship. After that fell apart, we then got an absolute monarchy reintroduced, albeit the king in question was very much aware of the real limitations of his power and the need for political consensus, so was careful not to push things too far. His successor did push things too far, was also overthrown and a more constitutional monarchy followed. That's the Glorious Revolution, which is perhaps slightly less well-known than the Civil War overall but the people who do know about it have a better idea of what happened and why.
The Civil War comes up very very occasionally in politics but usually buried in obscure debates and legal cases. It's not something that you hear political figures invoke in their public-facing addresses or rhetoric, nor something people appeal to when campaigning.
The only time it's seriously come up lately was during the Johnson government when there was a tug of war between the government (the "crown") and Parliament over Brexit and Johnson attempted to circumvent the need for Parliamentary approval by getting the late Queen to dissolve Parliament and allow a deadline to expire. The courts ruled that his doing so was illegal, with its being observed that to permit this would be "to reverse the result of the Civil War". As above, I think the learned judge was actually slightly off-base with that, although constitutionally it was the correct decision overall. The outcome reached was to say the Queen had been "badly advised" and so the dissolution was reversed - a fudge that ironically could have come directly from the era of absolute monarchy!
Politics has changed so much since the Civil War(s) that the issues being fought over then are no longer generally considered relevant to modern life. In fact I think the issues of executive vs legislature and of religious tolerance are still very relevant and perhaps the Civil War could do with being thought about more and more deeply than they generally are... but I am both an historian and something of a Civil War specialist, so of course I would think that.
Deuce03@reddit
Incidentally, for my part, when I'm asked "which side I'd be on" it's something I greatly struggle with. In the first war, I think both sides had a point, but I also have profound disagreements with both. I find myself more drawn towards the Royalists largely because I find them more compelling - the tragic/romantic figures of Maurice, Rupert, Newcastle, Bevil Grenville, Charles himself hold eternal interest, and that they performed at such a high level for so long despite generally being both outnumbered and having inferior equipment speaks a great deal to the quality of their morale and leadership.
In the Second War, I lean towards Parliament. By the third, I think both sides are in the wrong, but am probably a soft Royalist as the marginally less objectionable of the two.
I can say without much equivocation that I'd have supported the Restoration in 1659. Sir Thomas Fairfax is a figure for whom I have a lot of time.
Twid-1@reddit
I learnt all about it at school. No one thinks much about it, but maybe those who do are grateful for it establishing the pre-eminence of parliament - it's when we moved from an absolute monarchy to a constitutional one, which is a reasonably sensible system for a country with our history. We avoided the instability that the French Revolution ushered in by returning to an improved but similar version of what we started with.
Lowermains@reddit
As a Scot I can honestly say I don’t give it a thought.
Due-Adhesiveness-744@reddit
I studied history, and this subject was one of my favourites as we studied it in secondary school.
The result of the civil war was the Monarch was reinstated, and Parliament was filled with a bunch of rich, unaccountable assholes.
The civil war ended in a resolution that resulted in very little real change. Democracy didn't really happen untik centuries later, the Monarch still went on to rule the British Empire and half the world - so their power being removed was & is a falsehood to protect the monarch.
Studying the civil war, what I learnt early on in life, is that in the end, very little ever changes.
ChaseTWind-TouchTSky@reddit
Don't know much about it. My gcse history exam was on the industrial revolution, and the American West. 🤷♀️
Pure-Dead-Brilliant@reddit
The act which started the riot that kicked off the Wars of the Three Kingdoms, which includes the English Civil War, was a woman in Scotland, Jenny Geddes, throwing a stool at the minister in St Giles Cathedral. Charles I had introduced a new common prayer book in Scotland but the Churich of Scotland isn’t Anglican, it’s Presbyterian. As she hurled the stool Jenny is said to have shouted, “De'il gie you colic, the wame o' ye, fause thief; daur ye say Mass in my lug?” For those not familiar with Scots it translates as, “The Devil give you colic, in the belly of you, false thief! You dare say the Mass in my ear?”
As a British person, specifically a Scot, I think more of the Wars of the Three Kingdoms rather than solely the First and Second English Civil Wars which are a subset of that. There is a lot of history regarding the Covenanter movement where I grew up.
One_Complex6429@reddit
Nothing
Master-Narwhal-9101@reddit
Fuck cromwell. But also fuck absolute monarchy.
weedywet@reddit
That should be the only two sentences required to teach the history of the civil war.
Willing-Major5528@reddit
Great question - as you note, US remains in the long shadow of the American Civil War and it feels closer to modern times in terms of law, politics, and practice that emerged.
1642 is pre UK, pre Royal Society, pre Bank of England, pre the Glorious Revolution, and to compare pre much of the development of the 13 colonies (though that's started of course). I suspect it's a longer period of time ago and a very different time than we sometimes realise.
Unqualified musings from me - The English Civil War was a bloody and deadly affair, but the Puritan government led by Cromwell was a joyless affair and incredibly authoritarian. Appreciate why it might seem democratic as the Parliamentarian side but in any sense we would recognise today in the UK it really wasn't. Oh and all the massacres...
(bit like how the Magna Carta is viewed as a great document of freedom when all it did was protect the Baron's rights against the crown - see the Charter of the Forest for a real proto-democratic document).
Plus the Restoration in 1660 lead to bawdy comedies (the Country Wife and so on) and us being able to play football again on Sundays and those sorts of thing we like (both banned under Cromwell). Also led to the classic English compromise - bloody Civil War between Parliament and the Crown, and so we end up with...both...
So it's part of our history absolutely but was one of many things that happened that fights for attention in the mind - and not really the only civil war given our long history of powerful families and the crown.
17th century absolutely is a prologue for the modern UK and why we are as we are, but possibly less impactful on our society than the Industrial Revolution and the Imperial Century; less culturally significant than the Restoration that directly followed; less bat-sh*t crazy and captivating to follow the factions than the War of the Roses (and less likely to inspire GoT); less part of the 20th century national identity and rethinking of ourselves than the 2 world wars, and so on.
(All just thoughts of an English lit grad trying to consider the hard subject of history)
AbsoluteFuckChops@reddit
It happened
Which-Host-9073@reddit
I rarely think about it. It was what it was. Both sides were pretty horrible. But I guess it worked out for the best in the long run.
Sensitive-Director38@reddit
As I understand it, The English Civil was is why we have Democracy today, so that's good. We don't really celebrate Cromwell because he was a bit of a bastard.
I keep meaning to rewatch A Field in England, haven't seen it since it came out, might be worth a watch for you.
Round_Bookkeeper_887@reddit (OP)
I appreciate the recommendation
Fun-Yam2210@reddit
It’s remarkable how little this episode in our history is studied or discussed - almost like the powers that be want us to forget it ever happened…
seafrontbloke@reddit
I do like the fact that King Charles 1 is a Church of England Martyr, and has a bust set into a niche on the outside of Westminster Abbey, looking directly at the statue of Oliver Cromwell in the grounds of Parliament.
I don't think that we are very keen on the puritans being that they banned Christmas, etc.
Short-Shopping3197@reddit
I mean I think it’s great that the power of the crown was reduced to a symbolic role and we became a constitutional parliamentary democracy. I also think Cromwell was a terrible person. I’m a bit of a fan of a pikeman in terms of military history. That’s about it.
iamthefirebird@reddit
Personally I'm more into the Anarchy, one of our earlier civil wars between the true heir to the throne, Matilda, and her usurping cousin Stephen. My opinion on the result is obvious. You can see the effects of the aftermath of the conflict resonating through the years, it's really interesting!
paul6057@reddit
It was a long time ago. I'm definitely over it by now.
dgreen1415@reddit
We don’t really care about it. It wasn’t like the American Civil War where changes made by the outcome, are still sort of day to day life now. The country changed for a few years under Cromwells rule then changed back when Charles II became King. Most people’s knowledge about it comes from whatever they learned in school and it tends to be “oh Cromwell cancelled Christmas so he was the bad guy”
Historical_Ad_2429@reddit
It had a huge lasting impact even if the surface level appears to be returning to monarchy
Maleficent-Leek2943@reddit
I am a Brit (an English one, even) who turned 50 recently.
Times in my life I have ever thought about the English Civil War:
When I was about 10 and had this history magazine subscription (sounds nerdy AF but the TV ads made it seem like it was going to be way more exciting than it was, and I talked my mum into getting me it) there was one issue about the civil war. As I recall I skim-read that one because it was very boring, and my entire takeaway was that I liked the cavaliers more than the roundheads, because the cavaliers had fancy costumes and hair and the roundheads evidently did not. 11/10 for my deep research into that chapter of history.
A few weeks ago I listened to an audiobook of BBC Radio Drama adaptations of a bunch of Daphne du Maurier stories, at least one of which was set during the civil war. “Huh, that’s the one with the, what were they called? Roundheads and Cavaliers. And that’s basically the sum total of what I know about the English Civil War,” I thought to myself.
That’s seriously it. Can’t have an opinion on it, since I know fuck all about it.
AgingLolita@reddit
The average Brit isn't even aware of it and wouldn't care if they were.
Azuras-Becky@reddit
The 'average Brit', I suspect, doesn't even know about it at all.
I remember talking to my friend once and I brought up Oliver Cromwell for some reason (I can't remember the context of the conversation, just my memory of her response), and she didn't know who that was. I explained that after the English Civil War he became the Lord Protector, which ultimately didn't go very well, and she was mind-boggled.
The English Civil War never came up in my primary school or GCSE history classes, or even my A-level classes actually, and for a historically incurious mind I suspect it's just never going to appear. And if you're incurious about history you're never going to encounter it organically, because it's just never going to come up. Which is fine, by the way - we're all interested in different stuff. At the end of the day it was centuries ago, and most people don't even care to learn that it happened, much less form an opinion about it. Strangely, even though most people don't know about it, the result of Cromwell's regime is probably where modern-day British support for the monarchy comes from now. Like a kind-of myth, handed down from one generation to the next, the context lost to history.
Personally I tend to agree with the Parliamentarians (I'm also Welsh, though), but I don't think we were in a place where an effective and fair alternative to the monarchy was really possible in England/Wales (Scotland wasn't involved yet) at that time.
As we saw.
England Napoleon'd us, it's just that Cromwell wasn't as effective as Napoleon.
Round_Bookkeeper_887@reddit (OP)
This is a thoughtful response, thank you, and that's interesting that it's a mythical moment for monsrachy supporters
Ok_Veterinarian2715@reddit
The past and the floor have this in common in all countries - we're completely dependent on the foundations but only vaguely aware of their existence.
It's a great shame - the C17th was a fantastic time. It was the time when a lot of the modern world was invented. Ideas about the rights of man & inalienable rights (that was copied a century later in the declaration of independence), the scientific method, the basis of modern economics, were all done by people working then. If that isn't enough for you - it was the time when the real Pirates of the Caribbean were swashbuckling (as were the three musketeers, and Cyrano, and the Zaporozhian cossacks), when the Taj Mahal & the Greenwich Observatory & Amsterdam's main canal went up, when the Turks laid siege to Vienna and were defeated (in celebration the Viennese invented a new pastry in the shape of the crescent of Islam to mock the invaders, which the French loved and eat to this day - croissants), when the Manchus overran China & the Shoguns took over Japan, when - so many other things, it was a period when the world really blossomed, and we have largely forgotten it, even if we never go more than a day without some direct influence from the people of that time.
prustage@reddit
It has had an important impact on society since. The end of the civil war and restoration of the monarchy established two important principles of the British attitude to government:
1 The monarchy only exists because we want it to. We are not its "subjects" and only tolerate their existence because we can see certain advantages. If this situation ever changes we can and will remove them.
2 Brits don't like being under the control of religious zealots. Ironically, although we don't have a codified separation of church and state, in practice we are a largely secular country and do not let religion influence our politics.
Slyspy006@reddit
While this may be true today, it has not been a given and despite the Restoration the countries of the UK didn't not become suddenly tolerant. Catholics did not have freedom of religion until 1791 and could not hold public office or positions in the military until 1829
No_Election_1123@reddit
Coming from Worcester, your average citizen here is a bit more aware of the Civil War but probably doesn’t have much thought on the two sides
I think generally we’re on the side of the parliamentarians because the royalists view of their rule through divine right m
Unfortunately the parliamentarians were so bad at running the commonwealth that the population decided they’d rather have the King back again.
Broad-Train@reddit
I have a round head, but a cavalier attitude. I'm still torn, to be honest.
WanderlustZero@reddit
The Cavaliers were robbed!
But they scored a moral victory with the absolute dominance of the Vauxhall Cavalier in the 80s and 90s
User-1967@reddit
We don’t/ haven’t thought about it unless it was covered in history whilst in school
JohnnyOneLung@reddit
Unless it was on their exam syllabus 90% of British people have no idea about the English Civil War
ArcherIll6233@reddit
I grew up about 200 yards from a building that still has bullet holes (or musket ball holes i guess) from the civil war and the town has monuments to royalists executed and a school named after one. So it was a part of history that felt quite alive to me. We learnt about it at school as well - and what led up to it. Tbh no one really cares but especially because Cromwell turned out to be just as bad as Charles I, people don't really support either side.
Stella_Brando@reddit
Damn puritans
Zabawka25@reddit
People say it's a long time ago and irrelevant but it really shaped us as a country and our beliefs. Divine right of king's lost to the rule of law. One state religion list to religious pluralism. Cavaliers became Tories emphasizing tradition and hierarchy, parliamentarians became liberals emphasising reform and meritocracy. We still debate these today but pluralism, reform, meritocracy and equality under the law were forged in the civil war.
Round_Bookkeeper_887@reddit (OP)
I think the same thing! And considering how important England and the UK are to American history, I think the English civi war is important to American history as well
normannerd@reddit
Whatever you do, don't bring it up at dinner parties. It's still too raw for some ...
OrangeBeast01@reddit
It wasn't part of the curriculum when I was at school 30 years ago. I remember learning about the wars of the roses, maybe because of where I grew up.
Consistent_Ad4473@reddit
I was thinking the same. I'm pretty sure we covered everything from the Battle of Hastings through to WW1 and WW2. There are plenty of standout events that were focused on, but being from Bolton when I hear 'civil war' i immediately think of the war of the roses.
I married a Yorkshireman, and both of our grandads reference it at every single opportunity.
OrangeBeast01@reddit
As someone born and bred in Lancashire, there's a certain generation of men from Yorkshire who love to rib me about the war of the roses 🤣
I like it.
PipBin@reddit
We don’t. There were Roundheads and Cavaliers and the king hid in a tree. That’s about all I know.
Toc13s@reddit
Charlie was a twat, Ollie was an absolute cunt
Generally, no one cares & no one cares which side you support, if any.
Hefty_Tip7383@reddit
It goes in fashions however the cause of parliament is seen as the just one, however the commonwealth turned out. Especially the centre and left of today favour them. It’s a fascinating period with all the groups that arose (communes etc) and can be viewed as a precursor to the war of independence (many themes are similar, and many groups left to go to america after the restoration).
Frogad@reddit
I’m a big history nerd and like huge fan of quizzing, I’ve done a lot of competitive trivia and like tv shows. I’m aware of a lot of the details but I don’t really ever think about it tbh, like it’s just a thing that happened. Maybe if I was told to write about the importance of it I’m aware but I guess it doesn’t really appeal to me like other periods of history
Intelligent-Mud-1039@reddit
I'm Scottish, so a Brit, ergo you have asked me. Our lessons were about Scottish history which had some overlap with the English Civil War but that feels like a separate matter.
I have a rudimentary awareness of the key characters and themes, Charles 1 and Cromwell whose New Model Army beat us in Dunbar. I think we crowned Charles 2...that's about it.
restless_thinker1@reddit
The what 🤣
Observer73@reddit
It is the most fascinating period of English history in my view. The intellectual development following from executing a divine King was extraordinary.
Bustakrimes91@reddit
At the risk of exposing myself as ignorant on history (I didn’t do history as an subject at school, I did modern studies, I had NO IDEA that the English even had a civil war.
As you’re asking a Brit and not just ask the English I hope you don’t mind me chiming in! But I honestly haven’t even heard of the English civil war but I’m sure the English will have been taught this at school?
We learned about the troubles and a whole bunch about apartheid but not this war.
CreativeAdeptness477@reddit
Can't say it's actually crossed my mind in the last 35 years tbh, nor for much of the decade prior to that but I do recall being aware of it as a very young kid due to an old educational card game called Succession which we had like a million copies of because my dad worked for the printer and got lots of them for free, and it's played a bit like rummy but instead of 4 suits of 13 cards it has multiple royal houses and the dates of their reigns from Alfred the Great through to Queen Liz, including Olly Cromwell and his kid, and I wanted to know what a Lord Protector was so I learned myself about the Civil War by reading library books and encyclopedias because this was the mid-80s and ChatGPT didn't exist yet.
Other than that though, hasn't really crossed my mind all that much to have feelings about.
Round_Bookkeeper_887@reddit (OP)
That's interesting. It sounds like it occupies a place in the popular imagination but not significantly. I know there was a movie about Cromwell in the 70s or 80s and I just figured it was something more well known
Kei_cars_are_my_jam@reddit
I think about the Horrible Histories song every now and then, that's about it.
Agitated_Display7573@reddit
I don’t remember why it started. All I know is Cromwell sucked
Upset_Context2990@reddit
The average English person doesn't care about the English Civil war. Something I found interesting is the nursery humpty dumpty stems from the civil war. Humpty dumpty was a large cannon and when it fell from the wall the royalists (all the kings horses and all the kings men) couldn't fix it.
SilverellaUK@reddit
Also Goosey Goosey Gander.
beseeingyou18@reddit
Goosey, Goosey, Gander is also from the English Civil War: Cromwell's soldiers used to use the goosestep when marching.
The rhyme talks about how Cromwell's troops acted as a sort of secret police, persecuting non-Puritans:
Goosey, goosey, gander,
Where shall I wander?
Upstairs, downstairs,
And in my lady’s chamber.
There I met an old man,
Who wouldn’t say his prayers;
Take him by the left leg,
And throw him down the stairs.
[My emphasis]
Of course, it's hard to attribute it directly to that time period but it would make sense.
PatchyWhiskers@reddit
Only history nerds care.
Old_Introduction_395@reddit
Some regions are more aware than others. In Newark-on-Trent, there is a park called Queens Sconce, built to protect Royalists. There is a visible cannonball hole in the spire of the church. The church was damaged during the war. Lincoln was involved too. The local schools teach it.
hellopo9@reddit
History education in England isn't as in-depth as in most countries. History stops being compulsory at 14 (before your high school). So many people did no history over those last 4 years. Some do History for 2 years, very few for all 4. People only study 3 subjects for junior and senior years. Even for those who do history, it's much more focused on source analysis and academic skills rather than teaching people a broad amount of info on what happened in the world.
The revolution caused chaos, like revoultions do. Instead of doing the French or American thing. England gave up despite winning. It was all a bit embarrassing. The alternative, if they pushed through the chaos and the military dictatorship, England would be one of the earliest true democratic republics in medieval Europe (and the world). I know the founding fathers based a lot of their decisions on what to do (and what not to do) from their knowledge of the Civil War.
I also know there was a huge amount of great political philosophy coming out of England at the time, like the Levellers, which is sadly less remembered today.
Overall, I see it as odd and a bit embarrassing. A successful revolution turned into a dictatorship led by fundamentalists, who then panicked when it got hard and gave up despite winning.
Though in a way it did lead to a constitutional monarchy, as parliament had shown it held the true power and can slam the doors in the black rod's face if it desires (https://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/evolutionofparliament/parliamentwork/offices-and-ceremonies/overview/black-rod/#:\~:text=This%20custom%20dates%20back%20to,chamber%20and%20requests%20Members'%20attendance.).
GinatheGiraff@reddit
Gerard Winstanley wants a word. Levellers ffs.
Bunch of wankers.
SilverellaUK@reddit
The Roundheads didn't replace a monarchy with a democracy, they replaced it with another ruling faction that wasn't democratic and wanted to bleed all the colour and personality out of the country and replace it with strict religion.
That said, when your country's history covers such a long period, it's very difficult to teach anything in depth. When I was at school it was the Battle of Hastings, the Voyages of Discovery then straight to Jethro Tull and Crop Rotation. My daughter did the Romans, the Vikings and WW2.
thepioneeringlemming@reddit
Its so long ago and its causes are so alien to modern politics most people ha e no idea of which side was "right". In fact, for the minority who do believe there was a "right" side probably don't know enough about the Civil War, since the more you know the seemingly more alien it becomes!
EmuSea4963@reddit
Unless someone is a history buff I doubt the average person would have a clue about it.
There are definitely (English) people in my life right now that I know if I mentioned the English civil war, they wouldn't know what I was talking about.
GinatheGiraff@reddit
This is true. My wife got a rescued Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. So I called it Cromwell.
Very very few people make the connection when I tell them the dogs name. It’s a nice dog but very clingy.
StockholmGirl29@reddit
The monarchy was restored, the Puritans ended up in America and there were some good battles. Then everything returned to "normal"! I had an ex boyfriend who was a member of "The Sealed Knot", a Civil War reenactment Society. Spending hours in muddy fields watching him pretend to be a roundhead, rather put me off the whole subject!
Tamihera@reddit
I was interested, but I lived in Oxford for years, which was the Cavalier capital. The stories of starving town inhabitants eating cats still linger.
The thing I always admired Cromwell for was his willingness to promote capable soldiers up from the ranks, rather than simply assuming that Lord Percy Vyvyan Ambrose Chorleigh-Fotheringham would make a naturally-gifted military officer due to his aristocratic genes.
aqsgames@reddit
Dunno. Too busy thinking about the Romans
Jesters__Dead@reddit
Cromwell had Richmond Palace demolished, which is annoying because it was pretty amazing by all accounts
Active_Definition_57@reddit
When I was at school, our history leapt from the Gunpowder Plot (1605) to the Industrial Revolution that began in the late 1700s.
As well as being more recent, the US civil war had a strong North vs South geographical aspect, which resonates to this day. My understanding of the English Civil War was that, while particular cities and towns may have supported one of the sides, there was no real regional divide.
LichenTheMood@reddit
Well a few of our historical sites were blown up so they couldn't be used and that's a bit annoying. But I guess it's just added history. Though I think history of rubble is less interesting.
Aside from that I do not give a single shit.
Yeoman1877@reddit
The civil war and the seventeenth century as a while is a fascinating period which greatly interests me. Some really interesting political and religious concepts are raised and explored.
As others have said however, it is far from central to the national consciousness. I think that this is primarily because the political and religious mindset of people at the time is alien for most people nowadays.
Think-Committee-4394@reddit
Honestly it seems well all a bit wet
Lots of soldiers & peasants died, a few nobles but not anywhere close to the harvest madam guillotine reaped in France during their revolution
The bosses stayed bosses in the main
Much later Guy Fawkes made a spirited but probably misguided attempt to restructure parliament
But he didn’t do any better 🤷♂️
Kickkickkarl@reddit
I didn't know there even was a civil war.
HollyHor28HH@reddit
Funny that you think being American makes you lean towards anything democratic.
Round_Bookkeeper_887@reddit (OP)
Well, I grew up in a state where it's important. I suppose I can't speak for all Americans
CoffeeeGoblin@reddit
Its not something the average Brit feels much about, or knows much about. It is taught in schools, but its only briefly covered (least It was when I was in school).
For most of us its just another thing that happened, you have to remember we are a very old nation with thousands of years woth of history.
LouisaB75@reddit
I am a Brit who didn't study it in school but has read a lot about it later. The Tudor and Stuart periods are my favourite to read about and of course the Civil War was smack bang in the middle of that.
In a nutshell, my take on it is that the Parliamentarians were a bunch of killjoys, as well many of them being hypocrites. Basically your typical politicians... some things never change!
Had I lived in that time period I doubt my sympathies would have been with them. They would probably have burned me as a witch. Realistically, I would have been just as much an oddity to the Royalists, but they seemed to have been a lot more fun.
But where would we be had the war not happened? While the monarchy was restored, they never had the same power that the kings and queens had prior to the war and Charles II and those who followed him were no doubt acutely aware that they trod a very thin line and could easily share the same fate as Charles I. If the Royalists had won, who knows how long it would have been before this country truly became a democracy.
The war itself doesn't really get obsessed over like the US one seems to be. It was far too long ago and lots of more impactful things have happened in this country since then.
Round_Bookkeeper_887@reddit (OP)
I would have been burned too lol, but yah I am kinda glad they won the war oddly enough. Just as you said, democracy became possible in part because of the war.
Extra-Sound-1714@reddit
I learned practically nothing about it beyond the dissolution of the monasteries.
prustage@reddit
Then you learned absolutely nothing since the dissolution took place under Henry VIII about 100 years earlier
Extra-Sound-1714@reddit
Yeah as I wrote my comment I was unsure if it was connected. I know what happened with Henry, just thought there might have been a connection to civil war. I know a lot about history, except English civil war which is a mystery.
f8rter@reddit
That wasn’t the civil war
ShufflingToGlory@reddit
To be honest I'd say the World Wars, Roman occupation, Norman conquest, Tudors, Vikings and Victorians all loom larger in the British consciousness.
I used to live near a Civil War battlefield and walking across it in the early morning fog would give me the heebie jeebies.
I don't believe in spirits or any of that stuff but just the knowledge that so many people were slaughtered on that spot weighs heavily on the mind. Had a similar (but more intense) feeling when visiting one of the German concentration camps.
gilmea@reddit
Never learnt it in school so know nothing about it really.
After-Dentist-2480@reddit
I think we’ve got over it.
InspectionHot6010@reddit
Oh and I didn't know about the crusades either.
weedywet@reddit
I think history is tedious.
f8rter@reddit
Incidentally, Roundheads and cavaliers is a euphemism for circumcised and uncircumcised penises
BaumFrosch@reddit
We don't
Feersum_endjjinn@reddit
I think its one of those things where the intention was good but when the people took over they were just cunts like all the other people were before... history on repeat...😂😂
Sfb208@reddit
I don't think the average brit ever thinks about it much at all. I agree that it's interesting. Generally, i don't think when we covered the civil war at school (and as i went to school near a major civil war battle site, we actually studied it quite a bit as for us it was local history) anyone took sides. Its not like mkre modern civil wars like the American Civil war, where the shift for the everyman is felt.
The english civil war meant power moved from royalty, to other rich blokes. Whoopdidoo.
Hamsternoir@reddit
At least 98% are unlikely to be able to tell you who fought or even the century it took place.
azlan121@reddit
To be honest, they probably don't.
If they happen to be a staunch Republican, they might think "oh, well that was a wasted chance", and they might be dimly aware of the idea of the cavilers and roundheads, maybe even of Cromwell being a pretty awful leader for his time in power, and if they are the type of person who likes ambling around national trust properties, they may hear "and this is where the king hid" a bunch of times.
In terms of major domestic conflicts, people are much more likely to be aware of the general concepts of the war of the roses, and probably the norman conquest (or at least, the battle of Hastings)
illarionds@reddit
Unlike the American Civil War, the sides don't neatly separate into "the good guys" and "the bad guys". I mean, neither were that great, tbh.
Stephen_Dann@reddit
It happened. It was hundreds of years ago. People died, people lived who are now dead. Interesting part of our history. Does it affect us now, nope
tishkat@reddit
I mean, history is interesting and all, but from a general perspective, it's past. I'd say we're over it now and doesn't impact me in my daily life at all
kilgore_trout1@reddit
I’m fascinated by the civil war period but would say I’m a bit of a history nerd so probably not that normal.
I still think that to this day there’s a bit of a round-head (see Kier Starmer) mentality and a Caviller (see Boris Johnson) mentality that is still apparent in British public life that goes beyond party politics.
In general though I would say that most people don’t really give it a second thought these days - which is a shame because I think it went a bit way to shape British culture.
Round_Bookkeeper_887@reddit (OP)
Totally agree, and thank you for the thoughtful response
langly3@reddit
Too soon
Round_Bookkeeper_887@reddit (OP)
my bad
WhatVeronicaDidNext@reddit
It only pops up if the kids are watching reruns of Horrible Histories...
mostunseasonal@reddit
My daughter used to watch Horrible Histories on repeat so in some ways it's my Roman Empire.
Sensitive_Tomato_581@reddit
We have an awful lot of history and tbh we're spending a lot of time thinking about the Romans so there's not much of the part of the brain dedicated to history left for the civil war.
Illustrious_Fig_8537@reddit
what is it with americans and their obsession with wars?
we live in the here and now. you seriously think any of us gives a toss about some war that happened yonks ago?
go away, yank.
Quick-Ad-6048@reddit
Not fully a Brit, but voting for the royalists in both countries.
Shannoonuns@reddit
I don't really think about it honestly.
Charming_Persimmon52@reddit
The what now?
ClevelandWomble@reddit
Probably the best you can hope for is that we remember it was some guys in fairly flamboyant outfits fighting against the guy who cancelled Christmas.
OllyDee@reddit
At the risk of sounding like I’m defending Cromwell in some way, he actually did not cancel Christmas. But yeah that’s what I was taught too,
OwineeniwO@reddit
The average brit doesn't think much about it, no photographs and few contemporary images and the lack of records makes it harder to be interested, apart from the upper classes I don't think people know if they had relatives involved on either side. I think even modern day royalists would say the right side won but there isn't an as strong right or wrong aspect like there is in later wars.
Publandlady@reddit
The area I've moved into was violently royalist. To the point there were retaliatory massacres, and Charles 2 built a hunting lodge that still exists, using only local artisans to support the local area in recognition for what they did.
Forward-Swimmer-8451@reddit
I couldn't care less . I know of guy fawks but not the details and UK history bores me
Khidorahian@reddit
interesting bit of history.
Livewire____@reddit
We won! Yay!
palpatineforever@reddit
no we lost... everyone lost.
InspectionHot6010@reddit
I'd say we mostly don't know. My bro told me few months ago about the English civil war and I was like why did I not learn this in school 🤯 all we got taught was divorced beheaded died divorced beheaded survived 🫣
PartTimeLegend@reddit
I’m not even really sure what it was about.
me_version_2@reddit
We studied it a bit, maybe a couple of lessons but mostly in the context of it disrupting the royal line. I daresay it holds as much impact on today’s politics as my choice of breakfast.
gallus2@reddit
Scotland became a theocracy before England invaded and then the artistocrats brought back the monarch and invaded England which didn't quite work first time but now outside parliament house is a statue of that monarch who invaded England and outside the parliament in London is a statue of the bloke who invaded Scotland. So that feels at odds.
AppropriateDeal1034@reddit
Celebrate history, don't hide it!
Cherrytree374@reddit
The vast majority don't. Hell i really enjoy history, and I don't think I hadv given it much thought beyond knowing that I wouldn't have wanted to live under Cromwell.
We exported most of our religious nut jobs across the ocean, Cromwell was an early sign that this was a good choice... But definitely not the last sign.
Left_Set_5916@reddit
Which one?
There been at least 8 although the yanks try and claim one as there's.
PigeonsOfDenmark@reddit
Honestly, we've got that much history, that was just too long ago and most people don't have strong feelings about it or even think about it much at all
blurdyblurb@reddit
Funny you should ask that, just finished watching a film about Cromwell! I'm afraid most English people wouldn't care either way, if they knew we had a civil war in the first place. I think it's cool that we got rid of the king, and funny that we got his son back. I think a lot of the same arguments were played out in the American war of Independence. Have you seen the TV series 'A history of Britain'? You'd like it!
Miffy_The_Rabbit@reddit
It's a small boring topic of history back in school, and most brits could not care less about it really.
xDzerx@reddit
Honestly not something really taught afaik. At least it wasn't when I was in school.