As a Linux-curious person, what are the MAJOR obstacles that Linux faces in the future via widespread adoption?
Posted by bigdickwalrus@reddit | linux | View on Reddit | 87 comments
Every year I see it get a little bit easier to completely leave windows and Mac completely behind. an open source OS is incredibly exciting, but as modern computing has existed basically post 2005, formerly windows and mac users have a lot of giant, albeit VALID expectations.
I don’t want to have to fuck around with any drivers, whether I have a basic laptop, or a maxed-out custom rig with a 5090. It’s a bit snarkish, but ‘it should just work’ is a phrase that holds extremely true in the mind of 95% of users worldwide.
So what is it? What can the linux community ‘solve’ next and have a giant-leap-forward?
I’d argue among the most important is governments worldwide, especially america, trying to have virtual ID/state surveillance installed by default in each repo. Obviously that won’t happen, but it sure as hell won’t stop them from trying.
Lisanicolas365@reddit
have it pre-installed in PCs and laptops.
95% of people don't care about what OS they have, the majority don't even know what an OS is. they just use whatever is pre-installed
bigdickwalrus@reddit (OP)
That’s a really great point- do you think if it becomes more widespread laptop manus will face political pressure from bigger tech giants to let them retain a giant foothold in the prebuilt space?
MatchingTurret@reddit
Things like the Lenovo Kaitian X5d G1d don't support anything but Linux.
sekh60@reddit
There already is a big install base of laptops with Linux - Chromebooks. ChromeOS is a Gentoo derivative.
INITMalcanis@reddit
Application support. That's it, really. Linux as an operating system platform is just fine, thanks. Something like Mint or Fedora is 100% as usable as Windows. It just needs the applications.
Jealous_Response_492@reddit
Yeah, there are areas where Linux excels as a platform for many use cases and falls flat for others, notably CAD software, and the Adobe suite.
2ManyAccounts2Count@reddit
And Excel. M$ office in general is a must for most businesses but excel in particular is going nowhere.
Jealous_Response_492@reddit
I don't buy this one, there are very good commercial office productivity suites on Linux SoftMaker Office has been around for decades.
INITMalcanis@reddit
CAD and Adobe are applications, though? Linux could easily run both, were they available.
bnm777@reddit
Meh, I think Linux is great, but I've tried 5 distros (including ubuntu) and none have error free wake from sleep on this pc with an 3080. Pretty annoying.
No-Camera-720@reddit
I had this issue with my 4070 on Gentoo/xfce. Was an xfce thing. Has worked perfectly now for a while.
TimurHu@reddit
Sounds like an NVidia driver bug. That's pretty common unfortunately.
kettal@reddit
what app is need?
testfire10@reddit
Not OP, but… CAD software (like NX or solidworks), analysis software, PLM/PDM/ERM, etc. the list goes on
kettal@reddit
vibe code dat shit
spectralblade352@reddit
1) Proprietary apps: Many essential apps are not supported and maintained for Linux (examples include AutoCAD, Adobe, and other engineering apps), which is a big hurdle as you might expect.
2) Terrible hardware compatibility and support: audio sounding terrible, graphics cards being complex to install and breaking easily, fractional scaling breaking fonts and UI, etc.
3) Having to go the "extra mile" to setup and get going, such as installing MS fonts, setting up best audio equalizers and other hardware drivers, and finding alternatives to programs not supported on Linux.
4) Radical and extreme Linux users: don't need to elaborate on this, it's a pretty well known problem.
DrPiwi@reddit
There are a lot of alternatives for those essential apps. There are good alternatives to Adobe and the best thing is you do not have to keep on paying monthly to be able to use and access YOUR own data. For Cad there are professional solutios that run on Linux and often have linux as their preferred platform.
Most hardware works very well with Linux about the only one that has real problems is nvidia because they do not want to provide decent drivers. Harrison consoles seems to think that Linux is good enough to run all their consoles on. They do use these in the main movie sound studio's of Sony.
spectralblade352@reddit
1) no, app and driver support is still an issue. Some people just have to use AutoCAD and SolidWorks exclusively for their work, there is no way around it.
2) go online and lookup audio problems on Linux. My Lenovo L340 laptop has terrible audio on Fedora Linux and the only way to “fix” it was to use a tool like EasyEffects. Hardware support isn’t the best and it’s common to run into problems like this. Other more common ones I saw were WiFi and Bluetooth not working, the list goes on.
DrPiwi@reddit
That is on AutoCAD and SolidWorks in that they choose not to release for Linux. You can hardly blame the Linux community for that. But there are alternatives for that. And if it is for work it is upto the employer to provide the tools.
Again these are problems of the specific components in the laptop where the manufacturor refuses to either provide a decend driver or the information so that the community can write a good driver. Both Realtec and Broadcom are known problems.
These are your problems not necessary major Linux problems. If you know your're going to run Linux on it, then most people look and choose hardware that is supported, AMD vs Nvidia, Intel wifi......
niteninja1@reddit
too many variants.
too much software that doesnt work.
lack of a consumer grade ui
mmmboppe@reddit
you don't have to be a consumer
niteninja1@reddit
poster asks why linux doesnt have widespread desktop adoption. i point out its lack of consumer level support. get told consumers dont have to use it
mmmboppe@reddit
consumer is a marketing buzzword. consumers are sheep, exploited sheep
if you treat your OS like a product, that makes you a consumer, its slave
Linux is a tool not a product, and Linux users are the masters of their tools, not product slaves
niteninja1@reddit
Again op specifically asked about major blockers and the biggest is that the majority of users just want it to work. They don’t want to be told they’re a slave to their OS they want their computer to function for the tasks and enjoyment they want out of it.
MattyGWS@reddit
You don't need to focus on all the crazy niche distros. There are very few main ones.
Debian, Fedora, Arch are the main three that other distros are based on.
Ubuntu, Mint, Zorin, POP_OS (all debian/ubuntu based)
Nobara, Bazzite (fedora based, I wont mention things like CentOS and RockyOS because those are not consumer facing distros)
CachyOS, SteamOS, Manjaro and other arch based distros everyone knows about, though regular peeps should stay away from arch unless it comes installed.
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too much software that doesn't work? I assume you mean windows software that doesn't have linux versions, rather than linux software that doesn't work.
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What? Gnome, KDE and Valves SteamOS UI are all competitively awesome vs Mac, Windows and consoles UI. Do you mean that people will occasionally have to use the terminal? Have you tried doing something as basic as uninstalling Edge browser on windows? Or getting Unreal Engine working on Mac? The terminal is needed on all three.
I've needed to use the terminal more on Mac than linux, on my mac mini m4.
niteninja1@reddit
1) that’s still more than the 2 distros most software supports.
2) lots of popular consumer grade (repeat after me popular consumer grade) software just doesn’t work on Linux. I don’t care how many alternatives there are or compatibility layers there are. The moment popular software X that Alice uses doesn’t work you’ve lost her.
3) the people getting unreal engine working on any OS are probably less than 5% of all computer users.
4) the average windows or Mac user never uses any form of command line, Linux is still fundamentally built around the command line first.
MattyGWS@reddit
I want to start off here saying I mean no disrespect and I am all up for spirited debase so please don't take anything I say the wrong way, I'm not trying to be offensive;
so there is this misconception about multiple distros being harder to support. if you're on fedora, go download a .deb file and you will see... you can just unzip the .deb and run the executable inside. All linux distros run executables all the same. Package managers confuse people but in the end, a package manager managers packages, not executables.
I agree with this, more software developers need to make their software cross platform. I hate that companies like Serif started from scratch with their newest suite only to... make seperate versions for mac, windows and iOS, making it impossible to port to linux without making the whole thing from scratch again. Some software devs are really not working smart. I wish they would.
It was just one example that I have anecdotally run into.
And the average user will never need to touch the terminal on linux either. What do they use their PC for? web browser, music and maybe document editing for the most part. Web browser includes things like streaming videos, emails etc. Apps like Spotify are on linux but you can also use the browser for that too. Linux has document editing (libreoffice, onlyoffice).
Grandma has no problem using linux so long as it came preinstalled on her computer like windows would have. I think this is worth pointing out because the biggest thing most average users will struggle with is installing linux, but the process to install a distro like Ubuntu or Fedora is easier than the process to install windows, but even then since computers typically come with an OS that's the hard part over.
I think most people could use linux just fine if it comes with their hardware already.
sekh60@reddit
For the UI, KDE Plasma is very polished and very easy to use. I honestly feel it's been more polished than Windows for a while.
niteninja1@reddit
I agree kde is nice.
But you still need to use the cli to an extent.
I can’t go and buy software X and have it just work like I can with windows.
The Linux ms office variants are frankly shit.
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crshbndct@reddit
Windows has a lot more dicking around with drivers, I’ve found. GPU drivers need a DDU and 3 reboots, and assorted wifi and stuff can be problematic too.
AKostur@reddit
Hardware vendors not providing sufficient support for Linux.
SkinBurnsLikeVampire@reddit
The sad thing is that windows is largely correct in its approach of treating its users like idiots, because thats what majority of people who use computers are.
People are much more likely to do stupid shit when the stupid shit in question is only a single sudo away.
DrPiwi@reddit
Actually it is the otherway around. Most people who use computers are idiots because windows treats them like that. Most home users are also only a single "run as Administrator" away from doing stupid thing. Hell most of them run constantly as an admin. Most people running Linux do not run as root, and do know how to use and to be careful when running something as sudo.
Because Linux treats them as responisible users they will act like it.
Blitzbahn@reddit
The major obstacle Linux faces is getting people to pay for it.
Square_Attention8461@reddit
The biggest obstacle to adoption is that using Linux still requires the barest, slimmest, tiniest, most miniscule amount of persistence and problem solving ability.
Basically, totally out of reach for 95% of people.
MikauValo@reddit
Yeah but to be fair: If you want the mainstream to adapt a product, the product needs to adapt to the market / target audience, not the market / target audience to the product.
Blitzbahn@reddit
And you get what you pay for. People shouldn't expect Apple levels of support for free.
MikauValo@reddit
How many users do really contact Apple or Microsoft support for regular everyday tasks? I mean like really... I'd like to know because I can't imagine it's a high number at all. But I can be totally wrong. No one from my family ever did (Unfortunately, they contacted me tho...)
Blitzbahn@reddit
But my initial comment still stands, if people paid for Linux there would be more money to develop a more stable product. Considering the vast difference in resources it's amazing that Linux competes with MS and Apple. Yet people expect to get the stability of a Mac OS (not mentioning MS in this sentence) for free?
Blitzbahn@reddit
They do get support requests in their official channels. Previous searches I've done to solve problems often lead me to those.
But the "just works" thing seems to be more about initial setup, which most people never do with any OS, and updates. MS and Apple updates are not immune to problems either.
Square_Attention8461@reddit
My father in law paid a few hundred to a very helpful Indian gentleman from "Official Microsoft Virus Removal" so there's definitely a market for it.
DrPiwi@reddit
And did the helpful Indian gentleman remove the virus or just merely the contents of his wallet?
Square_Attention8461@reddit
You're right in most contexts. And people have made some efforts to create beginner friendly distros. I think something like SteamOS/Bazzite will probably be the Linux that gets wide adoption - something even more streamlined and on rails.
The "problem" is that a lot (not all) of the things that make Linux appealing require interest/curiosity/willingness to iteratively problem solve. It's "very* difficult to have the sort of freedom and flexibility without complexity and self destructive power. There's definitely room for user experience improvement and onboarding, not claiming otherwise, but that tradeoff will always be a calculation.
SolDirix@reddit
Lack of hardware support. Currently dual-booting on an Alienware, and cannot change keyboard colors without booting into windows. Also, cannot change performance settings without building and running a custom application, which requires the terminal which spooks too many normies.
DrPiwi@reddit
That is not a Linux problem, that is Dell not providing the executables to do that from linux or even from the firmware.
inbetween-genders@reddit
Public allergic to reading imo is a big hindrance. Understandable though.
TheRealMisterd@reddit
That's because most people already know windows. When enough people know Linux, you'll be able to talk to someone instead of having to read
No-Camera-720@reddit
The death of critical thinking snd increasing unwillingness to accept the effort of learning anything new. Intellectual laziness and declining technical proficiency.
bigdickwalrus@reddit (OP)
Yikes, are we crossposting r/collapse
No-Camera-720@reddit
As we LARP Idiocracy.
mmmboppe@reddit
stop buying Nvidia GPUs. it's existential, just like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthago_delenda_est
MatchingTurret@reddit
The starting point is wrong. Linux is already widely adopted. Billions of smartphones and basically every data center in the world run Linux.
siodhe@reddit
Oh, that's easy.
Granted, all these age signal laws are Meta attempting to shift the cost and liabilities of age proof onto everyone but themselves (with the Heritage Foundation backing it too because they want to make all porn criminal), but the potential effect is far, far worse than it looks.
Kitayama_8k@reddit
I don't know that people building PC's have a it should just work mentality, though certainly brebuilt device users do. I think we're pretty close on that.
Immutables like bluefin are probably stable enough and easy enough to use. With some mfg tweaking of hardware they'll get bettery life, etc at parody.
I think it's literally just the software.
Kodamacile@reddit
Linux users
bigdickwalrus@reddit (OP)
lol.
Razathorn@reddit
I'm tempted to make an AE so I can upvote this more
Jealous_Response_492@reddit
Rapidly declining general computer literacy.
Linux isn't actually that hard of a system to understand, it's derived from computing concepts from the 1960's, it has a structured approach to almost everything, it's versatile yet comprehensible. It is already practicably everywhere, except general desktops which as a platform is defunct beyond those of us that need/want it.
General computing today is tapping on a screen or increasingly conversing with an LMM prompt. Linux will likely continue to dominate numerous computing paradigms, yet remain invisible to the general end user.
This is not necessarily a bad thing either. The Year of the Linux Desktop, meh, for myself was Oct 2001, the general populace don4t have desktop PC's today.
BRabbit777@reddit
I agree with you for at home use, but trying to work on a mobile device sucks. Even if physical desktops are on their way out, I don't think the laptop is going anywhere anytime soon. (To be fair though its less about the OS and more about having a real keyboard. Now you can certainly hook one up to an Android tablet, I just don't see that often in practice.)
thephotoman@reddit
The big sticking point is the need to collaborate with Office users. It’s Linux’s real weak point: we don’t get the world’s leading integrated development environment. Yes, Office is an IDE, everything you do with it is a programming task, and it’s amazingly good at hiding the programming from the programmer.
dinosaursdied@reddit
I think people really over sell how well Windows deals with drivers. Pre built PCs are usually fine, but actually installing Windows from scratch, like Linux, may require some driver installation. Adoption definitely depends on PCs (especially laptops) sold with Linux as the operating system. Most people do not want to install a new OS over fears of "breaking" a very expensive piece of electronics. Frankly that's reasonable from a physicochemical standpoint. I remember the fear of my first Linux install over a decade ago. Seeing the device with Linux on it also forces companies to write proper driver's to make are the experience is good
The biggest hurdle is really Windows. I think people who use macs may be more comfortable switching because under the hood, it's also Unix like. Windows has an incredibly different structure to anything else but it's what many computer users have come to understand at a basic level. Trying to explain that there are no letter drives in Linux filesystems is usually met with a blank stare. I think it would take Windows crashing out to bring Linux to the forefront. IMO that's what's happening right now as people are really concerned about the privacy implications of copilot.
sleeper4gent@reddit
distain for popular apps and games
calling everything on windows microslop and insulting people’s taste for why they want something on linux isn’t gonna win any fans lol
wutImiss@reddit
The konsole is powerful but intimidating as hell to use. And Linux users giving help frequntly make the mistake that their instructions are obvious/simple. I'm new, I need steps 1, 1a, and 1b before I even consider step 2 which is what I'm given 🫠
PsychoticDreemurr@reddit
And overreliance on software such as Microsoft word/PowerPoint/etc
Razathorn@reddit
Luckily this is mostly an old problem specific to certain industries. At multiple companies, we would all be either on office 365, or google g-suite / workspace professional. The only people that couldn't make the switch were the finance folks that had some pretty complex excel only stuff but they're the minority now. All the normies and engineers were either on mac, windows, and weren't using local office suites at all. I run tech for my company and we're basically all mac, but I of course run linux, and any of us could, but everyone runs mac because we make ios apps and so... that's a bigger barrier to entry in the engineering world actually. Sure there are ways to do that but yeah. I think your average user doesn't give two shits about word or excel anymore. Gone with encarta, lol.
PsychoticDreemurr@reddit
College and schools also primarily use the Microsoft suite, unfortunately.
Razathorn@reddit
Yeah microsoft is pretty entrenched in education, that is a truth for sure.
Razathorn@reddit
There are a lot of good answers in this thread all ready, and it really does come down to the mass adoption of the computer illiterate to use computers like they do an appliance like a dishwasher. Linux is already way easier than it was to run solaris on sparc and bsd on university systems. Anywhere that was a computing stronghold, and EVEN the office, had people that installed dos disk by disk and knew how computers worked. My dad that is 90 backed up his hard disk before he was fired and brought all those games home for our 386. What has happened is the barrier to entry is so low for computing because of microsoft and apple that they're hooked on the ease, so the biggest obstacles are definitely uniformity, end user support, and pre-installs. You're kinda asking what it would take to get a professional race car ready for the masses, well, it takes a car company that makes a consumer version, and that takes money, and every time a company tries to do that and gets corporate like, our community eats the fucking face off. Redhat, IBM, Canonical, MANJARO (although they fail for a host of other unrelated issues we don't need to bring up) but the reality is that in the datacenter it ALREADY IS the accepted platform with support contacts etc. Old unix is gone. What's left, NT? Mac server? Solaris??? LOLOL gone. You're specifically asking about the desktop and right now it's linux users that keep that from happening because we're a fragmented bunch of zealots, unfortunately. You don't even consider ANDROID linux, but it is, and they did it, but it's not the desktop linux we want. It's a very specific thing you are asking for and maybe just maybe steam will get us there on accident, not because we deserve it, but because somebody finally found a market we sorta fit in.
tonymurray@reddit
Onslaught of LLM generated contributions...
ConsciousBath5203@reddit
Most distros I've downloaded have a checkbox for "download 3rd party drivers" that do that driver bullshit you're talking about and they literally work better than buying a pre built windows machine (where you have to download 3 things from 3 manufacturers, 2 of which have ads on their download page) just to optimize your performance and change the rgb.
Tbh the only difficulties with drivers were when putting Linux on Apple hardware
levnikmyskin@reddit
I think the biggest problem will be software. People will want their video editing software, or their accounting whatever software, Ms office and so on. On a different note, I find it funny that you mention video drivers etc working out of the box, since that might happen much more easily on Linux than on Windows (especially with amd)
p001b0y@reddit
Curiosity can lead to discouragement for some folks. There is a learning curve. It’s kind of a meme now but it is surprising how many people gave up on Unix and Linux and BSDs over the years because they didn’t know how to save a file in the editor.
It took me a long time to get back into it. I had switched to OS X Tiger and was primarily a Mac user since before considering moving back. It was difficult switching and still is but a lot of the Linux experience right now revolves around package managers and failed updates and missing dependencies.
My driver for moving to the Mac was because I support Windows and *nix for my entire career and I just wanted to be a user. And for the longest time, I got that. Apple’s business practices is what has pushed me away. Apple has been at the forefront of the shift towards the rentier economy and I don’t like renting.
pm_op_prolapsed_anus@reddit
It's hard to make things idiot proof when the idiots are so ingenious
Buddy-Matt@reddit
App and hardware support.
If someone can convince nvidia to not build drivers with minor irritants (hybrid GPU laptop resume from suspend never quite worked right for me) that'd help.
If someone can convince the likes of Adobe and any game mfg using anticheat to support Linux, that'd help too.
They don't even need to be seismic shifts. Nvidia don't have to open source their drivers. Game mfgs dont need to drop anticheat. They just need to support Linux - and probably just one or two hand picked distros at that.
zaminer@reddit
I'm trying to shift my main daily driver to Linux from windows 11, I'm a web Dev and gamer. I've got an Nvidia laptop. So far Linux has been more buggy and crashy than windows, and I still need to dualboot to go back there for Adobe Creative Cloud and some games that just run dreadfully on Linux. It's tough, I've tried Bazzite (extremely buggy to me), and cachyos so far. I'm tempted to try Ubuntu cos I remember it being quite stable...
Blitzbahn@reddit
People who say it should "just work" never installed an OS of any kind. They should just pay someone to install it if they want it to "just work". Things never "just work" for free.
Woodpecker-Visible@reddit
Pre installed on the machines, kernel level anti cheat games, adobe+ other software.
AmSoMad@reddit
Frankly, not much.
We already saw massive development acceleration during COVID, as well as a large consolidation around the more popular distros like Ubuntu and Fedora.
Both Ubuntu and Fedora now have near-perfect hardware detection and driver support. Some of the open-source drivers still leave a lot to be desired, but others are just as good as the proprietary drivers, and we have access to the proprietary drivers too (often turned on by default, like in Ubuntu).
This consolidation also led to an implicit agreement that systemd is fine and does what we need, so there isn’t a huge split across init systems or basic defaults anymore.
Thanks to Steam, Linux game support is massive now, growing quickly, and in a lot of cases performance is actually better. I get around +5 to +10 FPS in most games compared to Windows.
I'm not sure what Microsoft is doing with Windows 11, but it's already beginning to feel like a Linux desktop environment, and they've already got their devs using the Windows Subsystem for Linux for most development.
And, if you aren't aware, you can use most popular Linux distros only using the GUI. You don't have to use the terminal anymore, in many cases, not even once, not for a single thing (at least, at the consumer level).
So, much like always, there’s really just one elephant in the room: professional and performance software. Some companies support Linux, like DaVinci Resolve and Unreal Engine, others don’t, like Adobe After Effects or Avid Media Composer.
In some cases, we can emulate in Wine. In other cases, open source and/or paid Linux alternatives have become much better. But there’s still a number of professional software suites that commercial companies rely on, that they aren’t interested in switching off of, and that don’t fully work on Linux.
I’d say that’s the biggest obstacle toward Linux becoming a true default desktop for everyone, especially in professional environments. However, as adoption continues to improve, companies will be more interested in bringing their software to native Linux.
StrictFinance2177@reddit
Linux wouldn't be Linux if it tried to be Windows or Mac.
DeeBoFour20@reddit
Software compatibility. Wine/Proton has gotten a lot better in recent years but it's mostly focused on gaming and even there, kernel-level anti-cheat games don't work. For professional use, a lot of applications don't work. Adobe suite, audio/video production apps, etc.
Lack of a good Active Directory alternative for business use. A lot of businesses depend on Group Policy to manage their fleet of PCs. Samba exists but it's not as seamless and lacks some of the features of Windows.
I don't see that as an issue. I'm always fucking around with drivers more on Windows as nearly all drivers on Linux (minus notably Nvidia) are built into the kernel.
Ok-Mycologist-3829@reddit
Nothing huge like it might have been decades ago. When average people use it by default on a computer, they’ll be fine. So, exposure to computers with Linux already installed is what I would say is the biggest issue.
People like to say that things like broken drivers or other broken parts of Linux will prevent it, but that was always my experience with Windows in the 2000s and 2010s.
Single-Virus4935@reddit
Ecosystems and Integration. Almost every larger organisation uses Windows, active directory, exchange, sharepoint, integrated management tools etc. So much software and infrastructure is build around and integrated with this ecosystem.
While you can find replacements for individual components, the integration is now your problem.
MattyGWS@reddit
Lack of hardware coming with Linux already installed. That's it. Linux doesn't have a marketing department or anything, Linux doesn't try to push itself to consumers. This is the nature of linux but it's also the thing holding it back from being mainstream on desktops and laptops.
Some companies like Framework, Valve, Slimbook, System76, Tuxedo Laptops and Starlabs are doing a good job at this but they are also not really mainstream (even valves Steamdeck is small compared to the likes of Switch1 & 2).
tomsrobots@reddit
No Microsoft Office compatible.
Gone2theDogs@reddit
They won’t be solving it, likely ever because the nature is a community versus a dedicated team and goal.
It has to solve a problem better than currently provided. The benefits of change has to be greater than the pain of leaving.
Most get it pre-installed. Everyone knows it. The key compatibility with all their software they want works. If you are business, it’s office based software that’s the leader. It’s completely compatible with all windows PC games.
Linux has a place but it’s too inconsistent for majority desktop.
sekh60@reddit
For the driver issue with nVidia GPUs that's purely on nVidia for not opensourcing their drivers or contribution basically anything to the open source driver efforts. The vast majority of hardware just works and has for at least a decade.
Outside of the desktop Linux has already won. (Well, maybe Minix is ahead due to being on every Intel CPU). It dominates the server (both physical and virtual) and the phone space (Android is a Linux distribution).
There have been efforts to backdoor the Linux kernel, none have been known to be successful. There have been efforts to supply-chain or otherwise compromise userspace software. Sometimes successfully. Honestly I think the idea of state surveillance installed by default is much bigger with commerical software. But we'll see, already a bunch of distros have said they'll comply with building age attestation methods. Pottering has said systemd will implement it. I'm pretty pissed about that.