[other gun] End of an era, only 4 remaining. 25% off Echo Nine Three’s modified KP-15 receivers with 11.5 length of pull. $123.75
Posted by EchoNineThree@reddit | gundeals | View on Reddit | 65 comments
These are the final four modified KP-15 receivers we have in stock. We do not anticipate stocking these in the future. We will be offering some standard length build kits moving forward. So be looking out for those!
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Former_Power6209@reddit
Dang, these used to be like $88
Hellsing971@reddit
Even if they got completely crap pricing, it's not even $10 worth of plastic.
sled55@reddit
$10 worth of plastic put into a multiple hundred thousand dollar mold
Hellsing971@reddit
No, it wouldn't be that much unless they seriously got screwed. 2 plate tool for glass-filled nylon low production run out of a mostly P20 steel with a few slides is pretty basic. Properly done would be US made for $150k. Shit job in China would be under $100k. Guessing $25 a part at most, produced.
Is this the mold they keep trying to sell for $500k? That pricing is hilarious.
sled55@reddit
Okay so 200k for the mold, post processing, scrap, building, FFL, workers, tooling, time, insurance, risk, R&D, returns, material, warranties, tax. Sub $200 is a steal.
Hellsing971@reddit
No, my price includes all that. Doing this is is literally my job.
EchoNineThree@reddit (OP)
Then you would know there are 2 molds. One for each side. Then the two halves are vibration welded together, more holding tools. Then flash trimmed via CNC, more holding tools.
Russell (KE Arms HMFIC) could enlighten you further on the matter if he were so inclined.
Hellsing971@reddit
Wow, they messed up if they went that route.
EchoNineThree@reddit (OP)
If you could not tell this is how they are made. That leads me to believe engineering and production of injection molded firearms is “literally NOT your job”.
What do you make and for who? Since you brought it up.
Hellsing971@reddit
I work for the material supplier. I help people that don't know how to design and manufacture plastic stuff for injection molding (like this Russell guy, probably) go through the entire process. I actually am more familiar than most with “sporting goods”.
The fact these parts have a reputation for breaking when dropped, they stopped making them, and they are trying to offload the tool for $500k on their website kind of says everything.
I do apologize for shitting on your post though.
SinistralRifleman@reddit
You are completely fucking clueless.
Hellsing971@reddit
Im not being a dick, people are just making me out to be one. I am an extremely experienced plastic design engineer and I have no doubt you are an extremely experienced firearms designer. And you are correct that im clueless about making a regulated firearm part but lets not kid ourselves into thinking ffl licensed molders are special.
I was taught to represent the plastic and let you be the application expert. Im sorry you dealt with people that didnt do that. Its annoying.
Volumes are about 10X too low to have gotten real expert advice. You worked with a compounder or distributor, not the og material supplier. Nothing you could have avoided but I doubt you got real expert plastic advice. Sounds like they gave you advice you found annoying and disregarded which may have been for the best lol.
They did a moldflow for you and gave you a powerpoint full of results with colorful fill animations and info you think is essential like clamp force and pressure to fill but no real analysis was actually performed on the results. Hopefully they didnt charge you for it. Doesnt take much effort and makes the customer feel special. See it all the time. And nothing about fixing thick areas to prevent micro voids should get in the way of your design goals. Not sure what was miscommunicated on that front. 30% glass + impact modifier is pretty good at preventing voids anyway.
The family tool parts arent arranged properly. Looks like they just wanted to sell you more steel. Lots of dead space.
They got you to gate in the middle because it makes their lives easier but it also puts the fiber orientation in the worst possible direction just above the grip, the historic weak point. That prevents the glass from doing its job and is why your parts warped so bad. Welding doesnt fix that issue, it just masks it by adding a bunch of stress. Dont let them be lazy and tell you itd be too hard to fill if gating from the front or back of the receiver or make the cycle time too long or cause packing problems. All molders do this and it really annoys me. If you do a KP10, this will be super important. You want the fiber aligned in the direction of the action, not coming up from the grip and splitting in two directions right where the part needs to be the strongest.
In another area you mentioned something about Chinese tooling being a bad idea and if you read what I wrote youll see I said the same thing. It was a reference to how to get stuff done cheaply when someone incorrectly implied your tool wouldve cost hundredS of thousands of dollars. Im hoping you didnt pay more than $80k for the tool you show made in the US or got upcharged to a unnecessary steel like S7 or H13 by saying the glass fiber needs it. Even P20 is overkill for your volume.
I think its pretty amazing you made it to commercialization given what you were up against with low volumes. I hope you do get an opportunity to make a KP10.
SinistralRifleman@reddit
Sincerely fuck off
Hellsing971@reddit
Ok. Good luck.
EchoNineThree@reddit (OP)
Apology accepted.
These do not have a reputation for breaking when dropped. Some jackholes a few years back made a video claiming that sudden temp changes caused them to crack. Which simply was not true. But, yes. They managed to break one. I can break stuff too.
You really need to inform yourself better on this “tool sale”. First off the tooling to make these is not for sale.
What is “for sale” is/was a listing for someone to pay 500k to fund the creation of a large format “KP-10”. Which Russell has never wanted to do. As the AR-10’s on the market have way too much proprietary variation. Which would be a nightmare for most hobby builders and KE Arms.
So, if people really really want that. There is the price for it. To fully understand what that was, follow and read the information at this link.
https://www.kearms.com/KP-10-Mold-Tooling.aspx
Hellsing971@reddit
Good to know. I came to that conclusion based on knowing there is a listing that claims to be selling tooling, your title calling it the "end of an era", and the first google result for "is the KP15 reliable" is a reddit post full of unflattering first-hand opinions talking about it breaking and getting damaged. I personally would've labeled it as "Polymer AR-10 Lower Partnership Opportunity" or something like that.
I am correct about the design though. I know why they would think this needs to be a family tool and welded together, but it doesn't need to be. Guessing the buffer tube / stock area threw them for a loop and they had to figure something out. Various pin / spring holes probably also caused them problems but there is a way around that too. It is taboo for our industry to directly work with ~~firearm~~ "sporting goods" companies and it would have required some fairly advanced tooling / plastic design knowledge. There are no legal protections for us and the volumes aren't worth the risk. Wouldn't be surprised if my company throw that piece of the business away after they acquired us. There are only a handful of third-party molders that make all the plastic firearm parts and I have yet to meet one for whom it isn't a secondary industry for them.
prudiisten@reddit
FYI you can find videos on YouTube of the whole manufacting process of the KP15. Every step start to finish, including why they chose to do things a specific way.. Theres also videos documenting the history of the project going all the way back to Colts attempts at a monolithic polymer lower 50 years ago. So making assumptions about it based on reddit comments is kinda lame tbh.
AkRattler@reddit
"Update 12-6-2025: people are misinterpreting what this listing is. Since we developed the KP-15, people have been asking me about doing a .308 model.
While it is technically possible to make one, I don’t think it would sell particularly fast. We’ve had a post about this in our FAQ for years.
This listing is just to point people to, when they ask about it. Maybe some investor will eventually take it on as a passion project? "
They're not actively trying to sell the mold for the AR-10 version, they have the listing so people will read and see they aren't investing the time into the mold as it isn't worth it to them.
salem_lakes_armory@reddit
Why are molds so expensive to make? Serious question. I get your machining a negative but is there a high failure rate or is it the solid piece of metal you need to use?
Hellsing971@reddit
It’s not just the two hunks of steel but a bunch of precision machined parts made of different types of steel that fit together to make the mold. Mold plates, slides, ejector pins, and a bunch of other stuff. There isn't a high failure rate unless you pick a crappy toolmaker (mostly why rolling the dice on a Chinese mold is risky and can end up costing more than US made) or need to make design changes later on, especially if adding steel back. CNC has actually made everything better and cheaper since most of the initial investment has been recouped and now they are competing heavily on price against China. They shouldn't be too expensive, relatively speaking, unless someone is trying to pull one over on you or you're adding features that force some high complexity or you are doing a low production run. Avoid distribution and find a molder that can do all the front-end for you.
Btw people tend to focus on size and not on complexity. This is a big hunk of nylon. Compare that to a glock lower with all its overmolded metal bits. Thats an example of a complex tool. Complexity is the real enemy that'll hike up the cost.
I think the space is just confusing for a small firearms maker to navigate and they end up getting screwed a lot.
salem_lakes_armory@reddit
Ahhh ok thank you. I never really understood injection molding and what ot so thats some interesting insight
Hour_Somewhere1038@reddit
Can you pm me please
salem_lakes_armory@reddit
I dont normally pm but i sent you one. I just never check them
sled55@reddit
Start it If you think you can sell enough at $25 a part and make a profit and it be worth the risk. You are correct the part would be closer to $25 if you could sell enough of them, but the part you are missing is It’s a niche lower receiver.
Financial-Sir-6021@reddit
You are arguing with an illiterate, he think KE is trying to sell their mold because of the "investment opportunity" listing
https://www.kearms.com/KP-10-Mold-Tooling.aspx
carlwryker@reddit
Anyone got $500K to make the KP-10 a reality? Or maybe 2000+ backers/buyers at $250.00 each?
SinistralRifleman@reddit
The fact you think sending assault rifle receiver designs to China for mold production is a good idea and not an invitation for government scrutiny shows how completely clueless you are about all of this.
DA6_FTW@reddit
Fair
Fearless-Jeweler-318@reddit
what a worthless business venture if that's the case
Former_Power6209@reddit
I love my KP15 lowers, but this stinks of VA AWB pricing to me. Very weak and lame.
EchoNineThree@reddit (OP)
What old pricing are you talking about? The lowest sale price we have ever done these for was 50% off. And that was the ones with machined buttplates, also a thing of the past. We have ran other specials here over the years for 40% and 25% off.
plutPWNium@reddit
Yeah, on sale...
This post is not for a sale, lolwut
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Vic_the_Dick@reddit
Very glad I snagged a KE93 lower when I did, these things rock with a Dissipator upper.
EchoNineThree@reddit (OP)
KE93! I like that. 😃
We can still make one on a customer supplied lower.
Agreeable_Chef_6759@reddit
Pardon the stupid question, but what is the point of reducing the length of pull … unless it’s for someone with really tiny t-Rex arms
Vic_the_Dick@reddit
For me personally, I like the novelty of a fixed entry length stock. Used my lower to replicate the Defensive Edge SLR15 Commander of olde.
https://www.slr15rifles.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=Commander16
EchoNineThree@reddit (OP)
Do you shoot a retractable carbine stock fully extended? Not many do. Shorter LOP enhances handling when employing modern techniques. Or…… someone with tiny T Rex arms.
Vic_the_Dick@reddit
Kinetic Echo does have a nice ring to it, and good to know!
Logen_6Ninefingers@reddit
I love mine. I finished the lower with regular old parts besides the MBT. For the upper, I snagged a 16" A2 midlength with carbon fiber rail and C7 upper from a KE Arms sale and I love the setup. I put a Modlight on an Arisaka body and Surefire tail switch on the handguard, PA 3X microprism, and Ed Sherman sling on it. Light and simple.
EchoNineThree@reddit (OP)
Sounds like a cool build!
plutPWNium@reddit
I am reading some of these comments and I am pretty confused, lol.
I bought a KP-15 from Gander Mountain way back for about $80 on their "guns liquidation" era when they wanted to stop selling guns. It was at a significant discount. I also bought a Pachmayr D500B for ~$18. Then, inspired by echo93, I chopped the stock and JB welded pronged T-nuts into slots I cut into the interior support ribs in order to screw the pad onto the stock. Then had to grind and sand it to fit. I could have fucked it up at any time and ruined the receiver... I would gladly have paid $123 for the result I ended up with. Since I already had a KP15 but also wanted a shorter LOP (short arms), I tried it out. Maybe I was overconfident in my abilities, but it worked out pretty good!
You WILL pay a premium for custom work on a gun. Who would think anything otherwise? These are not made like this from factory (KE arms), this is a 3rd party mod with the blessing (in terms of warrant work) from the manufacturer.
EchoNineThree@reddit (OP)
Much appreciated, Sir!
purgatorialhoss@reddit
Should be with a LPK installed.
EchoNineThree@reddit (OP)
Lol.
purgatorialhoss@reddit
I mean laugh all you want but I got a wraith arms one for 96.29 shipped with a LPK already installed.
Diligent-Parfait-236@reddit
Wraithworks is selling his lowers at a loss because he's broke.
If you want a shorter stock I don't think KE will warranty a DIY but will warranty these, iirc.
IggyWon@reddit
Hell of a deal for both, though the WW is the same price with a LPK already installed.
EchoNineThree@reddit (OP)
All correct. Thank you!
EchoNineThree@reddit (OP)
Right on! Thats them, not us. And you are right a LPK cost way less than a LOP reduction, backfill and recoil pad fitting costs.
Taytayflan@reddit
Not stocking the modified ones in the warehouse, but will you still do the modification? I have an unmodified one I've been meaning to get chopped.
EchoNineThree@reddit (OP)
Yes. Modifications services remain!
crysisnotaverted@reddit
I honestly don't think this is a hideous price for something customized like this. Gun people will pay an extra $100 for a questionable widget or custom cerakote, but balk at an alteration costing than $40.
EchoNineThree@reddit (OP)
Yes and thank you. They have all sold hours ago. I am simply being amused at this point.
I am guessing they will not be interested in our upcoming build kits. Which will consist of a standard length KP15 lower, standard flattop upper and a railed hand-guard. All finished in RAL 8000 Cerakote. Maybe a hydrographic camo pattern. We are still sorting that out.
crysisnotaverted@reddit
How very peanut buttery. Any estimates on price?
GooseMcGooseFace@reddit
What would justify cutting an inch off the stock being almost double the price of a stripped KP-15? (Pre-sale price of course)
EchoNineThree@reddit (OP)
Go look up what most gunsmiths charge to a cut a stock and fit a recoil pad. And dont forget the cost of the pad, back fill, etc. Not that anything needs to be “justified”. It’s either something you want/need at a price you are willing to pay, or it’s not. 😉
GooseMcGooseFace@reddit
Yeah, but most gunsmiths are doing one-off jobs and don't have the economies of scale you do. This is like pointing to how expensive a custom cabinet job is and trying to justify IKEA being equally priced.
EchoNineThree@reddit (OP)
What do you think we are doing here? These dont come from KE Arms like this.
GooseMcGooseFace@reddit
Wow, really? I had no idea /s
EchoNineThree@reddit (OP)
Now ya do……😉
Chewynugetman@reddit
What is your guys turnaround for the PQD lever upgrade for when it is available?
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