Do you think Michael Jackson was guilty to the allegations?
Posted by StunningPizza3747@reddit | AskUK | View on Reddit | 104 comments
[removed]
Posted by StunningPizza3747@reddit | AskUK | View on Reddit | 104 comments
[removed]
Spare_Knowledge_8455@reddit
Yes, it's bizarre they don't treat him now for what he clearly was.
resixresi@reddit
Actually if you read into the allegations it's no wonder he's treated as innocent and got aquitted: * The Arvizos claimed Jackson abducted them (with threats to send them to Brazil in a hot air balloon) yet evidence proved they freely left the ranch on the alleged dates of captivity multiple times to visit shops, lawyers and Family Services regarding a separate custody matter. * Star Arvizo insisted he saw a specific pornographic magazine in Jackson's possession before being revealed it wasn't published until months after he last saw Jackson. * The Arvizo’s credibility is undermined by their history of welfare/insurance fraud and a prior incident with J.C. Penney where they lied in court about SA after being caught shoplifting and faking bruises * Gavin Arvizo’s testimony regarding the frequency of the alleged abuse fluctuated starting at "less than 5 times," then exactly 5, then 7 and finally to 2 times. * Star Arvizo initially claimed to see Jackson’s hand on top of Gavin’s clothes, then changed the story to say it was inside the pants. He also claimed he saw Jackson touch Gavin’s butt and that on the second occasion he witnessed Jackson had his penis out of his underwear; he later denied in court that he ever said or saw those incidents meaning under his own admission they were just fabricated lies. * When Gavin Arvizo took the stand, he claimed that Jackson had told all boys had to masturbate or else they would turn into rapists. But Jackson's lawyer showed that the boy had previously admitted his grandmother made that comment, not Jackson
Safechuck claims Jackson showed him CP movies however after multiple raids that went to illegal lengths no CP was ever found
Jordan Chandler's description of Jackson's penis was incorrect e.g. he claimed it was circumcised but Jackson's autopsy proved he was uncircumcised and he claimed it was black when it was actually white. If there was a match he would've been arrested but instead neither DA submitted the photos as cause to arrest plus the criminal investigation would've had enough evidence to proceed at least with an indictment but it had nothing.
Jackson lost all four motions to postpone the civil trial and have the criminal trial first (what guilty rich man would do that?). Additionally, the Chandlers sought a compressed timeline and requested that the civil trial be held within 120 days leaving Jackson's team very little time to prepare for the civil trial while also managing the ongoing criminal investigation. This too at a time when the police had seized all of Jackson's personal records and refused to hand over copies of them or even a list of what had been taken. According to the Chandlers’ lawyer’s legal secretary Geraldine Hughes, “The District Attorney’s office was operating, with the blessings of the Court, in violation of Michael Jackson’s constitutional rights, and the Court was weighing heavily in favour of the 13-year old boy”
5 former bodyguards sued for $16 million claiming they "knew too much," and had negotiated a $100,000 fee for a TV appearance instead of going to the authorities.
After being thoroughly investigated for decades, having 70 sheriffs raid his home numerous times including areas not even covered by search warrants, having defense documents from the home of his assistant stolen, his private investigators office being illegally raided, millions being spent by the district attorney to satisfy his zeal to get Jackson, the DA fabricating evidence etc... the authorities found no evidence & unsurprisingly he was aquitted on 14 counts despite the judge adding extra charges and a rebuttal case which contained heresay evidence (normally not admissible), prior bad acts evidence being allowed, being in an area with a high conviction rate and the most bias character assassination in journalistic history which even the jury saw despite being told to avoid media coverage.
flowersinthedark@reddit
What a wall of copy-pasted propaganda.
Let me ask you something:
How many people do you personally know who habitually sleep with other people's prepubescent sons?
Pussilamous@reddit
that's weird but it doesn't automatically equal to him raping kids
flowersinthedark@reddit
How many people do you personally know who habitually sleep with other people's prepubescent sons?
Would you let your little boy sleep in the bed of a good acquaintance, if the guy wanted it really much, and maybe gave you a gift or two? If he told you that he loved your son so much?
NoQuit8614@reddit
there's just no talking with you people. those are facts. legally and logically relevant facts. you make a small blank statement. I don't care either way. Most of my favorite rock bands did really bad stuff in their youth. I still bump them and buy their records, so I really don't care. But god damn it, this guy has 99% of all facts presented on his side. Wtf more do you need ? After the first case, a lot of families left their kids alone with Jacko, does that not make your brain light up in regards to who was the actual predator ? I am taking the list above and sharing it ad nauseum.
flowersinthedark@reddit
I take it that you probably do not know anyone who habitually sleep with other people's prepubescent sons either.
That's because the only people who would would have an interest in doing so are pedophiles.
Oh, and Michael Jackson. 🙃
NoQuit8614@reddit
" That's because the only people who would would have an interest in doing so are pedophiles. "
Too bad science disagrees with you.
Fast&Furious-level-of-intelligence type of reply incoming:
flowersinthedark@reddit
Oh, I am sure that you'll have scientific papers on that to share. Feel free.
NoQuit8614@reddit
You are dismissing mountains of solid facts against your position. Research isn't your strong suit. You have google, so I don't need to share anything with you. I just need to see a record-breaking crappy movie to make sure the sequel gets made, so that I can prolong the crying of this dude's accusers.
flowersinthedark@reddit
No sources? Yeah, that's what I thought.
Kudos to that level of pettiness, really.
Do you think it will impress a lot of people in this comment thread?
the_merkin@reddit
Your copium addiction is off the charts!
resixresi@reddit
As I said - inexcusable and clearly you've given no counter point to the many credibility issues that debunk the allegations
sneaksby@reddit
Guys dead m8, the time for treatment has passed.
mrhippoj@reddit
There's no smoke without fire and in the case of Michael Jackson the smoke is thick enough to block out the Sun
Barkasia@reddit
While this is very likely true in MJ's case, 'no smoke without fire' is a deeply illogical phrase that has been used countless times to indiscriminately persecute anyone who is deemed 'other'.
mrhippoj@reddit
I'm just saying I think he's guilty
HollowForgeGames@reddit
This,
Ive raised 3 kids and no adult ever suggested they have a sleep over in their home . WHEN THEY DONT HAVE KIDS
Like WTF did they have Michael sleep at their house the next week ???
BusyBeeBridgette@reddit
I think he was a deeply troubled man who had many mental problems and I think he was stuck in a child's mindset. As Dave Chappelle once said "Why not Macaulay Culkin?". I guess he took one too many right hooks from dear ol' papa and it perma brain damaged him.
I think he wanted to have sleep overs, sure. Probably had many. but I don't think he did anything sexual. Still creepy though.
Temporary-Prune-9237@reddit
I’m glad brits can distinguish nonces unlike the shitload of American dumbfounded comments I’ve read about Jackson.
Opening_Nose_2347@reddit
I'm not a fan but don't I think he was sexual with the kids. I think he had some mania to find he's inner child.
jamesdownwell@reddit
So you think the men in Finding Neverland lied about being abused as children despite their highly specific and detailed accounts which often match each other’s?
NoQuit8614@reddit
Yes.
Opening_Nose_2347@reddit
Yeah.
RecentTwo544@reddit
Which is the entire problem and doesn't excuse it.
When I was 12 or 13 it wasn't that unusual to knock one out near or with your mates, and this isn't unusual for teenage lads.
By most victims accounts this is the very least of the behaviour Jackson got up to with lads around that age, so the "trying to relive his youth" thing stacks up, but obviously isn't excusable when you're not another boy of that age, but rather a man in his 40s.
it may explain it, but it certainly doesn't excuse it.
Opening_Nose_2347@reddit
You obviously have more experience of things like that.
RecentTwo544@reddit
It's not a conversation that comes up often obviously when you're in your 20s/30s/40s but when it has been mentioned it's way more normal than you'd realise.
It wasn't "gay" either, more "look what we can do haha". Much like around the same age we weren't suicidal but would do stupid shit like jumping off a roof on your bike that you'd have to be suicidal to do in adulthood.
Opening_Nose_2347@reddit
As Implied, I didn't do stuff like that, perhaps it's being of an older generation.
Nice-Goose-7599@reddit
Yes. He had alarm bells leading to his bedroom, why else would you need that?
NoQuit8614@reddit
This guy had a homeless man enter his home and live in secret for days in one of his closets. Why indeed would you need alarm sensors when you are Michael Jackson. People parachuted on his property.
StunningPizza3747@reddit (OP)
First I’ve heard of this - omg.
Nice-Goose-7599@reddit
It was in Leaving Neverland, according to the documentary his own staff knew he had an alarm system that would ring a bell in his bedroom when someone was coming down the main corridor.
Empty_Bell_1942@reddit
Yet all their lurid allegations were thrown out of court when they tried to sue his estate.
Careless_Soup_109@reddit
I believe Jackson is guilty, however, I don't read too deeply into the alarmed bedroom.
1) Rich people commonly have lots of security. It's not unusual to want privacy.
2) if you believe Neverland staff, Jackson molested his child friends all around Neverland . So why would Jackson only alarm his bedroom?
Nice-Goose-7599@reddit
Just because having an alarmed bedroom is common doesn't make it any less unnerving. The world we live in today makes it clear that nonces are more prevalent than I'd ever suspected so why is an alarmed bedroom walkway less suspect?
Careless_Soup_109@reddit
I'm saying it's not great evidence by itself.
Nice-Goose-7599@reddit
Believe the victims when it's anyone except lots of kids and a famous guy eh? Jimmy Saville says hi.
poptimist185@reddit
I think his relationship with minors was, at very best, suspect. The people who defend him citing the court acquittals would never he so forgiving of a random person accused of the same thing who hadn’t also entertained them with smash hit songs.
StunningPizza3747@reddit (OP)
I find it odd how he started as being known for being overly innocent and kind, soft spoken etc. then it was like something switched in his brain and he started acting so abnormal. Watching interviews of him after the 90s he had a really creepy aura about him.
dweeb93@reddit
Fwi, his soft spoken voice is fake, he actually had a very deep voice but I believe he put that voice on to give a non-threatening image. He groomed the whole world.
NoQuit8614@reddit
It's recommended for singers to speak in a higher registry if they want their voice to preserve better when needing to pull of high notes.
Djinjja-Ninja@reddit
I'll bet that those same people call Andrew a paedo.
followthewaypoint@reddit
Yes absolutely. Never had a real girlfriend, was sleeping in the same bed with them, the alarm system and hallway of doors and not to mention the whole Peter Pan persona. All hallmark signs of a peadofile.
chiakoiv@reddit
I find It hard to say. I've been a fan of his since I was 8, when he died. Growing up I started to look up his personal life other than the music, up to this day, and I'm more inclined towards believing that his behaviour was inappropriate, but not sexual. People say that we wouldn't excuse the same behaviour on a random person, and it's true and I won't, but he definitely wasn't a normal person, both because of his life story and his fame that made him a target: since his childhood he went from living in a small space with all of his brothers, no personal boundaries or privacy, with an abusive father, to life in the showbusinnes where he was a kid surrounded by adults, constantly working, struggling to develop real relationships, no childhood and extreme loneliness besides his toxic family, this would deeply damage anyone. And then he distanced himself from the family too. There is weird stuff coming from both ways for sure, it's kinda insane that so many people had the chance to come forward when it mattered and things would have been in their favour, and they either didn't or they did it in such a questionable way.
quite_acceptable_man@reddit
There was obviously something weird and inappropriate going on, probably related to the childhood he never had himself.
One thing that really surprises me is the absence of his name in the Epstein Files.
lidlberg@reddit
I'm getting the word...
West_Yorkshire@reddit
Shamone!
Long_Wait_3078@reddit
The arguments the MJ defenders have is that he was proven innocent in a court of law and also nearly every accuser has seemingly tried to get some financial gain out of the accusations. On top of that a lot of accusers defended when he was alive and now are accusing him.
What convinced me recently was watching a doc on the trial in 2005 on Channel 4. They made a good point that people don’t take into account.
It’s easy forget now how famous Jackson actually was. It’s hard to describe but there has never been a level of fame like it. He is easily the most famous person to ever be officially documented to of ever lived.
With this comes an incredible amount of power. He and the team around him could easily spin narratives about his accusers and to make the accusations less credible, which is kind of what they did.
Jackson was a master of dictating the narrative. In the case in 05 the day his accuser took the stand was the day he turned up to court in pyjamas, that’s all the media spoke about.
If you listen to testimonies of the 05 case against him, there is A LOT that didn’t see the light of day in the wider media, after reading that for me it’s hard to say he is innocent.
Clueingforbeggs@reddit
I’m disgusted by the fact that a film has been made about his life, to the point where if I open Reddit on my phone and see an ad for it, I report it as inappropriate.
Take a guess how I feel about Michael Jackson.
On_The_Blindside@reddit
Almost certainly yes.
HarlequinKing1406@reddit
Even if he didn't do anything illegal that can be proven, at the bare minimum he outright admitted that he slept in the same bed as children and called it a beautiful thing. That should be at minimum seen as extremely inappropriate and would put anybody else on a registry if they did it.
girlandhiscat@reddit
The man also said he never had any sort of work or plastic surgery. They guy changed everything about himself, to the point he used a fake voice and people think this man wasn't guilty.
Also, who tf wants to sleep in the same bed as a child that IS theirs, let alone isn't. It's fucking annoying.
MagentaChair2@reddit
"he slept in the same bed as children and called it a beautiful thing"
Creepy AF!
HugsandHate@reddit
This cropped up here recently.
There was somehing to do with a hidden room.
Dude owned CP.
And the kids could all correctly identify a mark he had on his dick.
And... The dude was abused and insane.
So, I'm gonna go with, yeah.
Careless_Soup_109@reddit
Unfortunately, we have no publicly released pictures of Jackson's penis - those pics definitely do, or did exist, but it's not evidence we can access.
HugsandHate@reddit
They just asked the kids, and they all had the same account.
MagentaChair2@reddit
Michael Jackson gave money to his accuser(s). Not an act of innocence, I think.
RecentTwo544@reddit
Also worth noting that in the UK he'd have probably been found guilty.
The offences he was charged with were criminal not civil (obviously) so it would have been him vs the Crown, not him vs his victims as it was in the US. So he couldn't have paid them off and doing so would have landed him with extra criminal charges.
Barkasia@reddit
He had a criminal trial.
WinnerExpensive189@reddit
Well keep in mind the family flies a civil lawsuit and not a criminal lawsuit there’s a difference between the two.
Djinjja-Ninja@reddit
Of course he was, no one pays multi millions to their accuser to make the allegations go away if they're innocent.
A good friend of mine is a massive fan and she won't have a word said against him, thinks he was just an innocent soul who was utterly misunderstood and did no wrong.
MagentaChair2@reddit
"no one pays multi millions to their accuser to make the allegations go away if they're innocent"
That's what I feel.
Michael Jackson didn't want the world to know about whatever he did/had with/about children.
Big_Escape_8487@reddit
Although I don’t know what the truth is, in all fairness it wasn’t actually MJ who wanted to settle the allegations with pay outs, Michael actually wanted to fight it in court but his management, business advisors and Sony pushed him to do otherwise as they hoped this way it would stay in the dark and nothing was made public as they said this could’ve ruined his career and there was too much money at stake.
It wasn’t actually a criminal court case it was a civil one which to me points out that the intention at the beginning was all about gaining money rather than justice. If my kid had been molested I’d want that person behind bars.
Vivid_Sun_5636@reddit
Insurance companies do, if they assess the risk to them is potentially greater. The big settlement in his lifetime was made by Jackson’s insurers, not Jackson, and likely saved them money on the legal costs of a trial alone.
This other major settlement made was by Jackson personally, and although huge by normal standards, $2 million, this is significantly cheaper than just the legal costs even if he was found innocent.
Although what you say is true for normal people in UK, the US system of plea deals and settlements and crazy legal costs is very different to the UK legal landscape; plenty of of Americans accept a guilty plea to lessor charges or make settlements even if they are completely innocent. It’s messed up.
Not defending him. I have no strong feeling on him either way. But this isn’t really good evidence in itself.
mdmdmdmdmdmdmdmdmdm@reddit
I think he was weird. Maybe a pedo. But I think theres weird parts to both sides of the story.
People love to say what youve said. You wouldnt pay millions to for false allegations.
But its always forgotten just how bad it was for these pre internet celebrities even without bad publicity.
The dude was all sorts of fucked up. I think misunderstood is a great way to put it, probably not in the same way your friend put it though.
There are a bunch of people who know all sorts of shit about Michael jackson, but are still confused about the white skin, or the plastic surgery. There are rumours about him having a deep voice. There are anecdotes about him being like this or that. Theres so much cover of Michael jackson and people are still full of misinformation.
I think the neverland documentary coming out after his death is a bit odd.
I was molested. Idk if my parents would have settled on anything if my molester was michael jackson. Its a lot of money, but also I was their kid and I had been molested.
The second case was acquitted by a jury on all 10 counts.
There was that huge media uproar about something that didnt have any substantial evidence, despite a huge media campaign about all the evidence the prosecution had.
The kids from the neverland documentary had previously said multiple times nothing had happened. Then he died and suddenly they had been molested for years and years.
Like ok maybe they were coerced by jacksoj at some point.
But at no other point in their lives did anyone ever question them or explain to them what was going on?
They said it was only when they had children themselves that they had an epiphany on the fact that it was bad.
One of them had applied to work for a Michael jackson production and was denied, then like a year later he realises how bad it was and sues for 100s of millions.
I also feel like, the dude could just buy some kids and fuck em.
I dunno. Probably a pedo. Definitely misunderstood. The media definitely made loads of money spinning stories about him.
WinnerExpensive189@reddit
The only reason it was settled because if Michael went to court the costs being payed were going to be astronomical so that why they settled/resolved it and keep in mind. Michael asked about this with his lawyers.
fringe_eater@reddit
People pay all the time. Having an allegation disappear, even when innocent, to protect lost revenue / time / stress makes sense to some people.
nikhkin@reddit
Not that I'm suggesting he's innocent, but if you're stupidly rich, a payment like that to make an allegation go away could still be cheaper than if your reputation is destroyed.
HansJordi@reddit
Exactly. If you’re richer than god, you’re better off paying than risking even a slim chance of being found guilty.
That said, he was definitely a diddler.
Djinjja-Ninja@reddit
Tell that to the Prince formally known as Andrew...
nikhkin@reddit
Fortunately, for some people it is more important to get the truth out than to make some money. Otherwise, we might not know what he's really like.
medlilove@reddit
Yeah I do now that I’m older and there’s so many consistent stories by different groups of people
Careless_Soup_109@reddit
I really got into this topic a few years ago. Yes. Two things stand out far and wide, and they are confirmed, not disputed fact:
Jackson's most famous accusers during his lifetime are Jordan Chandler and Gavin Arvizo. (Arvizo was the one famously seen holding Jackson's hand in the famous Martin Bashir doc so many people have seen).
Today, both Chandler and Arvizo are still alive, but have essentially gone very quiet and avoided the limelight.
Now, here is where the facts becoming convincing:
Johnnie Cochran, later OJ Simpson's lawyer, representing Jackson, brings about a settlement with Chandler and his family. The settlement is reportedly about $20 million, or, as much as Jackson paid to buy Neverland Ranch. Now, if you were innocent, would you pay the equivalent of your house to make the case go away?
Fast forward to a few years ago. Jackson is dead. Gavin Arvizo gets married - and invites anti-MJ journalist Diane Dimond, and prosecutor Ron Zonen to his wedding. Apart from that, we don't really hear of him. Now think about this: if Arvizo was indeed lying about Jackson's molestation of him, why two decades later invite the prosecutor, Zonen, who did everything he could to have Jackson locked up - but failed - to his own wedding? That seems very, very unlikely. This fact alone swung it for me.
Lastly, Jackson was friends with Sean Lennon, John Lennon's son, as a kid. Watch Sean's music video 'Bubbles Burst' on YouTube and draw your own conclusions at to what Sean thinks of Jackson.
YumBukkake@reddit
I'm more towards yeah he fucked around, there's way too much weirdness to his life. I'd like to hope he was reliving a missed childhood or whatever but even that shouldn't have been happening really.
Mediocre-Opinion@reddit
Yes
Low_Border_2231@reddit
He admitted to having sleepovers with little boys. That alone is grooming behaviour, you don't have to specifically prove any sexual contact took place.
290Richy@reddit
2 sides to every story. Not defending him but it's every time they're dead and not hear to defend himself. He was certainly weird at least.
Meanwhile there's an orange ape with blonde hair who's listed quite clearly within certain files that's running a certain nation freely and nothing is being done about that...
World is cooked.
jamesdownwell@reddit
We talking about Savile or Jackson here?
Shot-Specialist-9841@reddit
If it was the same situation but a random guy on your street would it even be a question?
Ok_Cow_3431@reddit
Always believed it but with everything over the past 12-18months and the Mackaulay Culkin stuff Im actually willing to believe the "saving kids from Epstein" line
RecentTwo544@reddit
This is right wing MAGA conspiracy bollocks.
MountainMuffin1980@reddit
What do you mean?
nikhkin@reddit
There are unfounded claims that Culkin stated Michael Jackson protected children from Epstein and "spied" on his island.
RecentTwo544@reddit
John Niven (former A&R guy for London Records turned novelist) wrote this fantastic article which was, amazingly, publisher just days after Jackson died -
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/michael-jackson-bad-and-very-dangerous-1731258.html
Sums it up for me.
Also see Niven's fantastic novel Kill Em All which features a villain clearly based on Jackson. Needs to be made into a film, unlikely though as the film adaptation of his first novel (Kil Your Friends, also fantastic) was utterly dreadful to the point the audio was mixed so badly you could barely hear the dialogue.
Dragon_M4st3r@reddit
It’s bizarre that people still think there is a ‘debate’. It was settled long ago, the man did pretty much the worst thing human beings can do and people still idolise and worship him. He should be in the Saville ranks by now
CreativeAdeptness477@reddit
If he wasn't, he didn't do himself any favours with the way he behaved.
reggieko13@reddit
Talking about it recently and it does seem there is a different opinion based purely on how good the music is
SteveBruceGod@reddit
Hard to say, you’ll get a lot of people saying I wouldn’t dare dream of having a sleep over with kids etc but Michael didn’t have a normal life growing up. I haven’t done a deep dive into the case so it’s just what I’ve seen online.
Didn’t the fbi do a huge raid on his home and only find like naked cupids of what they deemed as child pornography ? I also find with any of these high profile pedos they don’t just do a few times but to literally every child they met.
But with all evidence and his behaviour it’s hard to argue he didn’t do anything.
Zealousideal-Low3388@reddit
Notice that nobody ever says “I hate his music, but think the way he acted around kids was normal”
Because it wasn’t, and only the most deluded fans can pretend otherwise
idontlikemondays321@reddit
Probably for 20% of crimes he was accused of
HamsterEagle@reddit
Because it’s bad, it’s bad, shamone (bad, bad, really, really bad) You know it’s bad, it’s bad (bad, bad) You know it (really, really bad) You know it’s bad, it’s bad (bad, bad) Shamone, you know (really, really bad) And the whole world has to answer right now Just to tell you once again It’s bad?
Boring-Equivalent315@reddit
I’m always 100% a victim believer but I genuinely think he was just a damaged, mentally unbalanced man who regressed into childhood as much as he could. And had the money and status to indulge it.
zecrichardson@reddit
Won't play his music in our house. Not sure why he seems to have gotten away with his crimes
Mysterious-Sock39@reddit
Right fucking weirdo
maxmarioxx_@reddit
I think Michael Jackson was weird in some aspects but l think he was innocent and the allegations were just people milking some money. How do l know this? There was no actual proof of anything and most of the kinds who were around him at the time - including McCaulay Culkin - defended him on multiple occasions.
There were however new revelations of how the parents of some of the kids he had at Neverland were encouraged by their own parents to sleep with Michael and other weird stuff.
AcceptableRedPanda@reddit
No smoke without fire
Bibb5ter@reddit
Is that what 1,000 years of the English Judicial system comes to?
So_Gawjus@reddit
Chance would be a fine thing.
Plastic-Lie1492@reddit
A fine thing indeed
AcceptableRedPanda@reddit
Yes
MixingWeedWithWine@reddit
Yes I do
Alarmed-Syllabub8054@reddit
I'm getting the word....
Upstairs-Balance9846@reddit
obviously he but his hands all over them, but I think it was non-sexual.
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