CJO to both, DL vs AA in LAX?
Posted by Inevitable_Panda_999@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 97 comments
My initial goal was AA because I wanted DFW, but I’m now starting to consider living in LA.
DL
- Profit sharing (California income tax is high, so this helps)
- Growth (787 30 orders and 30 options, 330 16 order, 350 15 orders)
- Job security (protections from RJ)
- Premium Pay starts at 200% and some work rules slightly better
AA (DFW or LAX)
- IMAX (not sure how hard this is)
- Retirement (AA will give me 10% higher in 10 years compared to Delta, but not sure how growth in DL will affect this number)
- Non rev is first come first serve
- DFW, I see a lot of people I know able to drop/trade their trips easily and make a 130+ credit with 17 days off, and this was consistant.
DL has 1179 pilots in LAX (out of 17400)
AA has 1132 pilots in LAX (out of 16500)
Basically both same small base with same percentage. Both Junior base.
Let me know your thoughts with reasons why.
shansta7000@reddit
For AA trip trading and dropping is really easy in dfw. Im like 60% in base, ive never flown a trip i was given in pbs and the last 3 months I think I've been able to drop almost every single trip and pick up easy stuff. That's not really true at other bases though, especially LA from what I've heard.
futurepilot32@reddit
Do you think that would be fairly doable in MIA as well since it’s such a large base?
shansta7000@reddit
I think somewhat but not as much as dallas. But miami is also way more junior so you'll get to be a line holder way sooner.
futurepilot32@reddit
Cool! What do you think it is about DFW that creates such good trading/dropping results?
shansta7000@reddit
I dont really know. Biggest base. My other theory is that dfw is sort of the catch all for trips that fall apart. So someone calls in sick at a layover in wherever, odds are they will dead head a dfw guy there to finish the trip. And those are usually good trips that lineholders want to pick up so they let us drop knowing we will pick up later and not use all our reserves. That's just a guess though.
Inevitable_Panda_999@reddit (OP)
I heard! that's what I'm really intrigued about DFW 737. Do you know 320 can do this too?
poser765@reddit
Former DFW/320/FO. Before I started upgrade I think I was able to drop maybe three trips the six months prior to class. That’s straight jobs, mind you. I probably could have had a bit better luck with pilot to pilot trades.
shansta7000@reddit
I think they can but senoirty is much quicker on the 73 in dfw. I was able to hold 737 at dfw before I was done with sims so I never commuted a day in my life. If i got the bus I would have been a commuter for like 18 months. So im super happy I got the 73.
durrrr___@reddit
AAL unless you don’t mind sitting on a seniority list for a while waiting for a young pilot group to retire.
Flimsy-Ad-858@reddit
This is mostly parroted by people who have no idea what they're talking about or are looking at out of date information.
While it's true that AA hasn't hit peak retirements yet, DL is all gas no brakes on hiring at the moment. Whoever is running around saying we have 10 year upgrade times or whatever is a moron.
Veritech-1@reddit
What are current upgrade times?
Flimsy-Ad-858@reddit
Junior upgrade on last AE is a little shy of 3 years
Veritech-1@reddit
That’s not bad at all. Some other dude said 6-8 years.
ItalianFlyer@reddit
3 years for a guy hired 3 years ago. For someone hired today it's 6-8. Although they just upped the hiring numbers for this year and threw out 200/mo "indefinitely" so it may come down again if we see another pseudo hiring wave. That's why trying to predict upgrade times is so hard. This is all contingent on what happens with the incoming energy crisis and how it will affect US carriers.
durrrr___@reddit
Did I say that, no I didn’t. AAL will retire more pilots over the next decade. Go to widget seniority OP, and mess around with it.
Inevitable_Panda_999@reddit (OP)
Okay so even though 14000 is 2023 hire, me reaching 14000 won't be within 3 years. Got it.
durrrr___@reddit
Correct if we on average retired 500 people 17500 to 14000 is 3500 people. It would take 7 years to hit that number. DAL is a good company, but if seniority is important then it is back to historical norms in regards to upgrades, wide body flying. We aren’t advertising a 30,000 pilot list like UAL which I don’t believe in but just saying.
swakid8@reddit
I mean, folks didn’t believe that United was going to have a 18,000 pilot group either over 6-7 years ago either… lol.
Flimsy-Ad-858@reddit
Widgetseniority doesn't account for growth/hiring, only attrition. That junior CA is a May 2023 hire.
I think it's pretty safe to say every legacy has a young list from 10000 down or so at this point.
Inevitable_Panda_999@reddit (OP)
Yes, I got the info and by 2040 AA will have 7922 retire, DL will have 6522 retire. So AA definitely has more solid retirements for me, about 10% more seniority.
However, DL has some solid growth plan is what I'm starting to also think about. I think DL is not like UA saying "Oh we will hire 2500 pilots and grow 200%" and the next day cancel everything they said, so I believe in DL's words for their growth.
Prof_Slappopotamus@reddit
A buddy of mine upgraded about a year ago over there and told me they were told "be happy and content in the seat you're in this year, because this is where you'll likely be for the next 10 years" was the message being sent out to all new hire/first equipment change and upgrades.
He was a 3 year upgrade.
Now, how accurate that is and what specific snapshot they were looking at to draw that conclusion I don't know. I also don't know how much of it is filtered through him not completely paying attention, or me misunderstanding what he was trying to explain. But talking to him I get the sense that movement is still happening, but it's not nearly at the rate that allowed him to jump into the left seat and get senior enough quickly enough to really start enjoying life.
Flimsy-Ad-858@reddit
If you try and put too much science into upgrade times it's just going to be annoying. It's like buying a house, you can't time the market because by the time you actually get through the requisite lag, things will have changed beyond your control anyhow.
Prof_Slappopotamus@reddit
Yep, but everyone looks into their own murky crystal ball and adds whatever data points they find relevant.
For all we know Delta and AA decide the squeeze isn't worth it and shut down their LAX base next quarter and expand PHX and SLC.
Veritech-1@reddit
What are current upgrade times on the 737? Least desirable bases?
YugeWaterBottle@reddit
6-8 years
Inevitable_Panda_999@reddit (OP)
Curious, how accurate is that information? I researched and it shows from 2019-2025
DL hired 7985 pilots, and currently 7740 pilots chose to stay.
AA hired 8407 pilots, and currently 7666 pilots chose to stay.
With this number, I think like they hired exactly same about of people post COVID?
ItalianFlyer@reddit
I can add a little bit of DAL perspective. The conservative outlook is to assume around 500 retirements per year and zero growth. Let's take a snapshot for September, which will be after everyone converts to their position. With a September class your seniority number will be around 18,000.
In September, the most junior CA will be on DTW 717 around 14,000. After that it's ATL and NYC 737 at around 13,500. For west coast, LAX 737 is 12,000. With our previous assumption that puts upgrade at 8, 9, and 12 years respectively. Shave off a couple of years to account for growth.
If you're lookin at WB FO, the most junior will be NYC and BOS at 14,000 , followed by ATL at 13,000, and LAX is 10,500. That equates to 8, 10, and 15 years respectively, subtract a couple of years to account for growth. The LAX number will probably come down more if the growth materializes because a lot of the A350-1000 deployments to Asia will be from the West Coast.
Now that said, if you're living in base, being junior is not a bad deal at DAL. I was one of the people in the lucky streak and took an early upgrade, and got stuck at 98% in seat for the past two years. I probably won't improve in seniority until they retire the 757 unless I change fleets. It's been surprisingly not bad. Reserve here is pretty cushy once you learn the ways of the reserve ninja, and living in base negates all the pain that it may cause a commuter.
The other question mark is the outcome of Section 6. There's a lot of frustration with how the company has been unilaterally reinterpreting the contract recently. This could all go away with a TA very soon, or things could draw out for the long run.
bamfcoco1@reddit
As someone who sat 95% in a super understaffed base, I thought I had some of the reserve ninja stuff down. And in some regards I do, then I moved up 20% this year and literally nothing I was doing is working anymore. Somehow I can’t even get 3 specific days off I needed in May (not holidays). Not sure what happened but man, I’m hoping to uncover more reserve ninja skills in the near future.
Though I do think my seat being ungodly understaffed is likely the driving factor.
ItalianFlyer@reddit
I noticed since the double whammy of pre-posted rest and the rug pull on PB days QOL on reserve tanked significantly. Those drove changes in behavior both in who bids reserve, how they bid it, and what they do when on reserve. Plus scheduling now has pre-posted rest as one more excuse to shotgun trip coverage out of order and often you can't even call them out on it because it's at least 30 min on hold.
Just like I was venting to my GF the other day, it's not that you don't know how to play anymore, it's that the rules changed out of nowhere, and not in your favor. So your old ninja skills may not work anymore, you need to learn them again based on how the company changed their behavior and how pilots adapted. Being understaffed doesn't help since it just creates more chaos. It might work out with better chances of a GS or QS to clean out the days you needed off and couldn't get.
Trust me it almost drove me to bid out into other categories where I'd be 10-20% higher but I'm waiting to see if we get a TA soon or if I can figure out how to ninja this new status quo if we end up going the long route.
bamfcoco1@reddit
Yeah that makes perfect sense. Pre-assigned rest really grinds my gears especially because I hardly ever get the rest the preassign anyway, it’s just grid manipulation as I see it. They end up moving it so that can give me a trip, and give rest some other time. My seat hasn’t seen a blue day in at least 6-8 months by the 19th. I’m pretty much down to bulk X day swaps and dragging a LC day to the end of a res assignment. Neither give me the flexibility I had before.
Like you said, hopefully we get a decent deal going the quick route and things start to fall into place or else it’ll be a wild summer!
nineyourefine@reddit
What would life look like for a new hire who wants to be JFK based. Do the numbers also show the 8ish year upgrade times? I would think JFK would be super junior with faster movement in both seats, no?
ItalianFlyer@reddit
Pretty much. The plugs for both 737 and 220 CA are almost identical around 13,500 using the September projection, so roughly 8 years for a new hire today. A couple of years less accounting for growth. The big unknown there is if, when, and how the MAX10 will come online. It may drive down 737 upgrades wherever it's deployed due to particular growth of the fleet.
As a newhire in NYC your movement will initially be quicker as people bid out as soon as their seat lock is up. After the first couple of years though, once everyone is where they want to be, it goes back pretty close to the company average. You would be able to hold WB FO about a year or two earlier than the other bases, but still looking at 6-8 years for someone hired today.
SuperSkyDude@reddit
Everything is cyclical except the number of pilots retiring. I think AA has a lot more retirements but I could be wrong. If I’m right, I’d give AA a second look.
hanjaseightfive@reddit
I’d rather commute to DAL than live in base for AAL if that helps.
My buddy is a 5th year CA at AA. His profit sharing check was like $800. I’m a 4th year FO. Profit sharing: $24k.
UAL & DAL are capturing 99.5% of the industries profits.
Then there’s how disgruntled the AA pilot group is. Before all the newbies of the hiring boom, every AA pilot I rode the jumpseat on was quite explicit about “if you have a choice, don’t come here”.
On top of all that, you get to deal with APA 🤢
SpiritFlight404@reddit
DAL and don’t look back.
Purrrplewing@reddit
Give you 1, 4, and 5.
The rest is pretty speculative.
Good luck OP.
The good news is you can be surrounded by people who wear rosy glasses all the time at DAL and never feel any doubts 😎.
No_Pattern_2190@reddit
Where are these rosy people at DAL? I never fly with them lol
ReverseBuckets@reddit
23.M.7 nuff said
Smoothridetothe5@reddit
I'm assuming this is referring to something in the contract? Can you explain for us common folk who don't have a hat?
CatchMe_If_YouCan@reddit
The racketeering pilots.
bamfcoco1@reddit
🤣
Purrrplewing@reddit
I guess they all here in this thread
shansta7000@reddit
And 1 and 4 can change really quickly in this industry.
precense_@reddit
the hat is unbeatable, if you got a receding hairline or insecure about having a bald head DAL is the Air Line for you
JPAV8R@reddit
4 can also be a reason not depending on how you view the image.
Inevitable_Panda_999@reddit (OP)
Where are you based in DL? Did upgrade times really slowed down?
JAMONLEE@reddit
Upgrade in about 2 at AA. If money is you goal upgrading 8 years earlier is a lot of years of profit sharing
MeatServo1@reddit
What profit? There’s nothing to share.
PLIKITYPLAK@reddit
Make your own profit
GeorgiaPilot172@reddit
Yea upgrade times have way slowed down. You are looking at probably close to 10 years to upgrade for a new hire starting now.
JewofTVC1986@reddit
And one ceo away from no profits it’s all cyclical
sioux24@reddit
AA 737 LAX FO here, took AA over DL CJO (AA was 2 months sooner). LAX flying is rough right now with terminal 4/5 being under contruction. My hope is once the terminals are up and running and with the olympics, LAX flying will grow. (I don't have high hopes for WB flying unlike DL who has stated they will be growing LA flying) I am currently sitting as a VERY JR LH, 3rd month after finishing OE. I was able to trade out of all of my weekend 3/4 days into weekday trips. Mostly all commutable and high crediting. (working 15 days by choice and crediting 86 hours). I was able to trade out of all my redeyes. I'm hoping as we get closer to May, I can trade my 3/4 day trips down to high credit 1/2 weekday trips. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.
Raccoon_Ratatouille@reddit
I find it hard to believe AA only has a 10% retirement advantage. DAL has hired a lot more folks the past 5-10 years it seems, and AA is just starting to ramp up retirements. DAL is a far better run company now, but AA can't underperform forever. Also LAX is adamant about not letting any airline make it a fortress hub so growth plans will be
I don't have a dog in this fight but I am a believer that your earnings with either choice will be pretty damn close.
swakid8@reddit
Contracts go in cycles….
Industry darlings become tomorrows industry dogs….
I would go with the carrier that provides the best seniority progression over one’s career. AA has far more retirements vs Delta….
GummoRabbit@reddit
Some devil's advocate: Turns out seniority only gets you what the contract and company offer. My AA buddy used to say that all the time when we were applying for the legacies, "AA has much better seniority progression." Well, turns out his life is a lot worse than mine. Like not even close. Way more days worked, unlimited short call assignments, ECS notification, no profit sharing, etc.
554TangoAlpha@reddit
If you want LAX, DL. If DFW AA
Matuteg@reddit
I have a similar issue. CJO with UAL and DAL
precense_@reddit
many people here would love to have your issue!
indianmcflyer@reddit
What are your stats?
precense_@reddit
captain of the artemis II
skywagonman@reddit
More than us.
indianmcflyer@reddit
Lmao damn right
Chadwickpilot@reddit
Sounds to me like you need to decide where you want to live. As a DL LAX pilot I can say our trips are noticeably better than AA in LAX from my dialogue with AA pilots.
System seniority doesn’t mean much once you pick a base you plan to stay in, it’s all about your relative seniority in your seat and the seat you desire. 10% at AA overall may not translate much in LAX. Being a smaller base we have relatively quick movement off the bottom as new hires bid around here at DL in LAX.
As far as living in SoCal, it’s amazing. If you’re coming from somewhere with lower log using there’s an adjustment period as you get used to paying more per square foot. But the income tax thing is over blown in my opinion, as is getting less house for your money. If you live in SoCal, it’s about going outside and doing things. Rent till you find your spot, there are great bubbles all throughout the area.
Oh and congrats on two CJOs!
EdBasqueMaster@reddit
It’s quite amazing how bad the trips at AA are. Rarely discussed too.
precense_@reddit
to OP i recommend asking a buddy and viewing the bid package at each airline in the airframe you may get out of training at the bases you want
FlatwormNo3937@reddit
I know your seniority will be bad so it won’t matter at first, but first come first serve non rev sucks
rotardy@reddit
I don’t mind it.
FlatwormNo3937@reddit
I’ve heard people love it. I just like the flexibility of being able to book last minute, or change plans on a whim
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
I have personally never talked to an AA pilot that didn’t complain about that operation. You don’t hear that out of DAL and UAL.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit
Lol seems a little biased. I hear complaints from UAL pilots all the time, same with DAL. DAL in particular has had chronic short staffing for the last year.
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
That's not what I said. I said they're never NOT complaining. Sure the other pilots complain, but that's not all that comes out of their mouths. It is at American.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit
I’ve found the complaining to be about equal among everybody. Besides, OP is looking ahead to what I assume will be a decades long career. Are we really going to consider yesterday’s metrics to be the permanent norm for the next 30 years?
rotardy@reddit
Well. I work at AA and am very content. Rarely fly with anyone that complains. I do have a friend here that bitches non stop about everything here. Most of it is bs and more reflective of their attitude than the reality of working here.
Perhaps you were just lucky to catch the whinny pilots or perhaps I’m just lucky to avoid them.
Hard to say.
rotardy@reddit
Pick a horse and hope it doesn’t die before the race is over. When it comes to legacy airlines all of the contracts are within range of each other cost wise to the company. Each one has some language that better than the others. No one contract has everything.
This business is so cyclical it’s impossible to project years out which one is better.
Based on what you’re telling us I would pick the one that retires you at a higher seniority and gets you there quicker. Then hope for the best.
Bunslow@reddit
if you're "starting to consider" living in LA then I'd take the one that has bases in both cities you want to live in.
dsrr30W@reddit
Which company’s workforce voted no confidence in their management? I probably wouldn’t put my quality of life in that company’s hands…
Inevitable_Panda_999@reddit (OP)
But that could change... right? I mean FedEx was the best airline in 2019 (I think?)
dsrr30W@reddit
Sure. But I’d look strong at the numbers and the people working there. There’s various friends of mine at AA trying to leave for DL or UA. Friends at the top of the seniority list of AA advised me not to go there when I was applying. AAs business strategy completely changed during covid and they’re paying for it now. They have a lot to fix in order to turn it around
swakid8@reddit
There are people who will leave DL, UA for AA….
They will turn things around….
Shit United was in the dump back in 2011-2016 time frame, was shrinking and giving up market share…
Delta was in the dump up until the NW/DL merger settled things out…
These things go in cycles..
PLIKITYPLAK@reddit
Friends give notoriously bad advice sometimes
dsrr30W@reddit
Sure but if it looks like a duck, talks like a duck, and the mass consensus is that it’s a duck… it’s probably a duck
poser765@reddit
That’s some interesting anecdotal evidence. Mine is a bit more direct and completely opposite. I don’t think I’ve flown with a single FO that even hinted at leaving for delta.
Flimsy-Ad-858@reddit
DL isn't far off from that
dsrr30W@reddit
Hopefully the new PWA solves the issues
Unhappy_Sprinkles121@reddit
Delta unless you want to live in AA base. No question.
Negative_Swan_9459@reddit
It’s a super long career with many ups and downs. This sub is terrible at looking at the immediate future and past and using things like “image” to pick a horse for a career.
Not saying DL is the wrong or right choice bud I’d talk to pilots you know at both carriers and go from there.
changgerz@reddit
lax 737 is pretty junior right now 2.5 years to upgrade
Taste_My_Noodle@reddit
I’m at AA and it’s still DAL if you want LAX
greetsforteets@reddit
My steak is too buttery
flyboy_1285@reddit
Now things can change but I would probably go to the airline that’s not losing money every quartet and doesn’t seem to have a plan to fix it.
Smoopilot@reddit
Losing money every quarter? What are you talking about? American has made a yearly profit every year since 2022
CrossBamboAtTen@reddit
AA has a weak LAX base. Go DL.
YugeWaterBottle@reddit
DL and it's not even close.
beercanpilot@reddit
Trip trading today, might not be the same trip trading tomorrow.
LootenantTwiddlederp@reddit
I say this as an AA pilot who loves working for AA. In your situation, go to Delta.
the_devils_advocates@reddit
Generally speaking I think the consensus is unless you’re gonna live in an AA only base (CLT, DFW) delta is the better option
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
My initial goal was AA because I wanted DFW, but I’m now starting to consider living in LA.
DL
- Profit sharing (California income tax is high, so this helps)
- Growth (787 30 orders and 30 options, 330 16 order, 350 15 orders)
- Job security (protections from RJ)
- Premium Pay starts at 200% and some work rules slightly better
AA (DFW or LAX)
- IMAX (not sure how hard this is)
- Retirement (AA will give me 10% higher in 10 years compared to Delta, but not sure how growth in DL will affect this number)
- Non rev is first come first serve
- DFW, I see a lot of people I know able to drop/trade their trips easily and make a 130+ credit with 17 days off, and this was consistant.
DL has 1179 pilots in LAX (out of 17400)
AA has 1132 pilots in LAX (out of 16500)
Basically both same small base with same percentage. Both Junior base.
Let me know your thoughts with reasons why.
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