Struggling with power on stalls. RIght wing keeps dipping and I need advice.
Posted by LutrisAO@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 45 comments
I am currently prepping for my PPL checkride in a cessna 152 and have been able to get through all of the maneuvers no problem, except for power-on stalls. Each time it is the same story. Slow down to Vr, raise nose and power max to induce the stall, add in right rudder to stay coordinated, and at the stall, the right wing suddenly dips down while the ball swings to the left side. I have tried adding in less right rudder, more right rudder, keeping the ball in the cage, but I still get the same results and am getting frustrated.
Paul_The_Builder@reddit
One thing that helped me was to increase the throttle more slowly.
Every CFI that I've had demonstrate power on stalls for me pushes the throttle to full pretty aggressively, which requires quick and accurate right rudder to keep coordinated and on course.
If you slowly push in the throttle over the course of say 3 seconds, and also slowly raise the nose, its much easier to stay coordinated and I think it helps flow to make all of the manuever more fluid and controlled. The turn coordinator is not accurate at low speeds and high angle of attack, so depending on the plane and conditions you have ot ignore it to an extent and put in the right amount of rudder that you know to produce a clean full break.
ShmupsPDX@reddit
I raised the nose so slowly that the DPE just told me to recover when the stall horn was barely starting to whine. I think he said something like "at this rate we're going to need oxygen before this thing actually stalls."
I think my cfi just told me to pull slower than i'm used to during the checkride to make coordination easier and I overdid it a bit lol. didn't dsat me on the maneuver though.
RevolutionaryWear952@reddit
Try not at the ball or inside at all for that matter. Pick a cloud or a spot and hold your nose on it. It becomes very apparent when you need more control inputs be it back pressure or rudder. Takes a little practice but your stalls will be clean when you get it right.
Go do some falling leaf stalls with your CFI. It will translate into this as well.
artificielstupidite@reddit
Yup this is it^ I will add: making a conscious effort to relax and sit back in your seat for better peripheral vision will make it easier to be able to see/feel the yaw. You’ll be able to recognize the nose dip that prolongs the onset of the stall for so many students.
sprulz@reddit
End thread. OP, this will 100% fix your problem. Stop looking inside and concentrating on the ball and look outside. The wing drop is entirely caused by excessive rudder.
Also if you have a wing drop it isn’t the end of the world. Drop the nose, get out of the stall, and bring the wing back with the aileron.
OpieRugby@reddit
I learned a similar way by looking out at the wing tip. Rudder to counteract and an occasional glance to make sure I'm on heading
LearningDumbThings@reddit
This is the correct answer. Pick a cowling rivet and pin it to one spot on a cloud. Use your feet to correct any yaw at all. It’s WAY easier to see the yaw starting.
Hiddencamper@reddit
The wing drops away from the ball.
If the ball is to the left (indicating a need for left rudder), you will drop the right wing.
Normally you get left turning tendencies when you are pitched up with full power. If you are applying right rudder to compensate for it, then that means you are likely applying too much right rudder, which increases airflow on the left wing over then right wing, and means the right wing stalls first.
You likely need slightly less right rudder.
I’m not a CFI
mountainbrew46@reddit
All other advice here is good. Also remember the point of the maneuver is the recovery, not the stall itself. The ACS says you have to maintain within 20 degrees of level (or 10 degrees of a specified turning bank angle) “while inducing the stall”. That’s just a setup parameter, and the next skill is to “recover promptly”. If you set up within the parameters and promptly respond to the full stall, you’re good. How the airplane actually stalls isn’t an ACS skill.
jmac29562@reddit
This is exactly my interpretation and has been a point of contention with some fellow CFIs at my flight school. I was under the impression that the heading requirements for the maneuver are all related to pre-stall and then recovery just requires you to apply proper stall recovery per the airplanes POH.
Has anyone found an actual interpretation for this?
Creative-Grocery2581@reddit
You may need to adjust your rudder use.
Flyingredditburner44@reddit
Been awhile since I flew a 152, but I'm damn sure I remember them having wing drops very commonly during stalls.
You're overthinking, a wing drop is also an indicator of a stalled condition, just recover and move on about your day, nothing to worry about.
flyingron@reddit
It's not so much the 152 itself but the fact that your average flight school trainer is pretty ragged out and way out of rig. Some idiot walked into the rudder trim tab doing their preflight and it's never been fixed, etc...
I agree with the above, just deal with it. Your job in primary training is to recognize when things are starting to go wrong and correct them rather than to worry about the fact that they happened in the first place. A slight wing drop is NOT a spin (though some people act like it is). You can do a falling leaf drill which essentially is alternately dropping each wing, which might be a useful practice for you.
inversiondude@reddit
Agreed. Got checked out in our local 150s, started with “well this one always has a wing drop to the left so just be ready.” I think the trick is simply correcting for it correctly and you’re fine.
Low_Sky_49@reddit
After establishing the “waiting for the stall to happen” attitude, use rudder to keep the wings level. If a wing starts dropping, that’s the stall happening. Keep ailerons neutral and “step on the high wing”, along with full power and forward yoke to recover.
taytayflyfly@reddit
Use your front-side window to look down at the ground when the nose starts to rise well above the horizon. Watch for relative motion, at first fly over and parallel to a road or something straight and watch for it to start moving left or right. Use rudder to correct while continuing to pitch up until the stall happens and then back on the instruments/out front to recover. Once you understand, you don’t even need a landmark just look down and you can even determine if grass in a field is moving left or right. At a high pitch attitude and aoa the inclinometer isn’t 100% reliable as the p-factor will be so great.
jimngo@reddit
One of the three C152s at my school did that. At first it concerned me but the chief flight instructor took me up in the airplane and we did some spins so I could see that I can stop and recover from a fully developed spin. Not saying that's what you should do but it's what my school did with me.
Some_Equipment_3345@reddit
Slow down, keep the ball centered. Slowly pitch up, slowly decrease your speed until stall starts happening. Then just lower the nose
aftcg@reddit
Look out the window and use your feet to keep the nose on one spot
Jwylde2@reddit
As you start losing airspeed, P-factor and torque factor become more apparent, calling for more right rudder to stay coordinated. Keep stepping on the ball all the way through the stall, relaxing once you break over and your airspeed comes back.
WA4WTF@reddit
Also, the point of the maneuver is to simulate take-off high and hot. You can announce to the DPE that you are simulating Denver in the summer and you are only going to 2200 rpm to match reduced performance. You’ll stall earlier and in a much lower AOA. Easier to hold heading and recover.
When I did my check ride I failed at this skill because I got nervous and flustered. My CFI gave me this exact piece of advice.
iamtherussianspy@reddit
And here I am struggling with the same issue that OP has, but on an actual hot Denver day...
JustDaveIII@reddit
I thought , ICBW, that the check ride is now recognizing that a stall is near ( stall horn / buffeting) but no actual stall is done ?
bgrant902@reddit
I had this issue during PPL. Basically stop looking at the ball and look outside at a cloud or something. The inclinometer doesn’t work as well in the conditions of a stall where you’re changing pitch and losing speed.
1E-12@reddit
What helped me: search for the right amount of right rudder BEFORE you stall. Once you get it, hold your feet steady, stick steady, try not to change anything. When the nose drops, relax the stick but don't move your feet, keep them just where they were (unless of course you need to fix that wing still dropping lol)
Before this occurred to me I was reflexively mashing the right rudder when I saw the nose drop and getting a big wing drop. Holding my feet steady or at least not overreacting with my feet helped. Good luck and remember to give yourself plenty of attitude and rehearse PARE every day.
__joel_t@reddit
It might be too much right rudder.
As you pull up, you have increasing P-factor pulling you to the left, requiring more right rudder to compensate. When the stall breaks, your nose drops, P-factor drops, and you need to take out some right rudder. If you're not taking out some right rudder, you would be yawning to the right, which could cause the right wing to drop.
TheVillianOfValley@reddit
Don’t worry about the wing drop, just recover. The stall doesn’t have to be perfect. The recovery is the important part. As long as you recover promptly and don’t progress into a spin, you’re fine, and any other decent examiner should agree.
bhalter80@reddit
Have your instructor demo, some planes are just badly rigged and always do this. I can think of a certain F33A that practically wants to spin
If they can keep it straight look at the horizon, pick a spot and follow them on the rudders to keep it there (do not fight them)
Regular-Schedule-168@reddit
Look outside and use the rudder pedals. Like keeping it balanced on a beam. Ailerons neutral.
Historical-Pin1069@reddit
It isn’t a failure if the wing drops. The main thing is to recover from the stall safety and not get into a secondary stall.
I had to do a 10 degree bank full power on the power on stall for the CPL check ride. The wing drop was crazy but manageable. Just be ready to kick in that opposite rudder and pitch down to break the stall then bank the aileron in the opposite direction to go straight and level.
wuzcoo@reddit
Just passed my ppl checkride and had a similar issue. If you fail, it’s not going to be because you weren’t coordinated while stalling, it’ll be because you didn’t maintain 5+- on your heading up to that point. When the wings brake, your instructor isn’t going to dog you because of your heading slipping out as long as you were coordinated up until the stall. When you pitch up, increase your right rudder SLOWLY as you are adding power. Add as much rudder in as you are power simultaneously so you stay coordinated as your pitch increases. You will not fail ACS standards if it takes you 5 minutes to stall. So, take as much time as you need to be coordinated while increasing pitch. My problem was that I’d cram power too fast and left turning tendencies would kick in instantly and I wouldn’t have enough right rudder to compensate, throwing my heading off by 10 degrees or more. Hope this helps.
F1shermanIvan@reddit
It’s been a while but isn’t having a wing drop almost the entire point of a power-on stall?
It’s supposed to. Pick it up with rudder, keep your ailerons centred and recover from the stall.
outworlder@reddit
Having both wings drop is preferable.
Nnumber@reddit
Aren’t all the stall maneuvers for the pts/acs these days to the first indication of a stall? Ie buffett, stall warning etc
Cessnateur@reddit
It's so stupid that people here are downvoting you for asking an honest question and seeking clarification.
outworlder@reddit
That's what this subreddit does every single time.
planegoeswoosh@reddit
Not on small ac for ppl or cpl unless they changed it in the last 5 years
RaidenMonster@reddit
CPL can be first indication. PPL is to a break.
Circa 2020 anyway.
mtconnol@reddit
CPL is now examiners’s choice except for accelerated, which is first indication only.
carl-swagan@reddit
For PPL? No. Full break
flightist@reddit
As others have said, pick a landmark. You’ll see it outside first.
Glittering-Will9056@reddit
Have your instructor work the yoke for pitch and you focus on maintaining the wings level with your feet/rudder. Once you get that down, reintroduce the yoke for pitch. Also a good technique for learning to take out side loads when landing.
Money-Evening-2624@reddit
Sounds like you’re not staying coordinated, and have a combination of chasing the ball and overcorrecting.
Implement rudder usage earlier, and keep the ball in the middle. If you’re coordinated you wont be dropping a wing.
Flat-Row7968@reddit
Make sure your not focusing on ball so much and instead just using your peripheral vision to see when either wing is dropping and use rudder to correct. The more you practice it the more you’ll be able to stay proactive with the rudders. That was my biggest struggle when I started was focusing on the ball instead of just using my peripherals to maintain heading.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I am currently prepping for my PPL checkride in a cessna 152 and have been able to get through all of the maneuvers no problem, except for power-on stalls. Each time it is the same story. Slow down to Vr, raise nose and power max to induce the stall, add in right rudder to stay coordinated, and at the stall, the right wing suddenly dips down while the ball swings to the left side. I have tried adding in less right rudder, more right rudder, keeping the ball in the cage, but I still get the same results and am getting frustrated.
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