Do you guys think the DC-10/MD-11 should be grounded?
Posted by Valuable-Concern8008@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 44 comments
Recently, a congressman has called on the FAA to permanently ground the McDonnell Douglas MD-11, the second generation of the DC-10, after the UPS crash in Kentucky back in November. The MD-11 has been temporarily grounded for inspection since. What do you guys think? I say it should just because of the accidents it has had (goes all the way back to the 1970s with Flight 191 and earlier), but let me know what you guys think.

UrgentSiesta@reddit
Because ONE aircraft crashed in 35 YEARS…? 🤣
Valuable-Concern8008@reddit (OP)
no. Because MANY have. American 76 & 191, N13067's metal piece (Air France 4590 cause of crash), UPS 2976, I could go on and on.
UrgentSiesta@reddit
LoL - where are you getting your “facts”’from…?
Valuable-Concern8008@reddit (OP)
official NTSB report pdfs from the crashes
UrgentSiesta@reddit
You’re citing flight numbers that weren’t even MD-11’s, and the one that was involved a maintenance issue.
The overwhelming percentage of all airline mishaps are human factors. Should we “retire” all the people who caused them…?
Valuable-Concern8008@reddit (OP)
I know that 4590 was not an md-11, but the cause of the crash was a dc-10 engine piece, the md-11's predecessor
UrgentSiesta@reddit
Dude you’re straight up trippin.
Do you think McDonnell Douglas made the engines?
You DO realize that the same engines were used on the A300, A310, B767, and B747…
Right? RIGHT?? 🤣
Valuable-Concern8008@reddit (OP)
Yes, but I also know those don't have the engines getting fucking ripped off
UrgentSiesta@reddit
And so what does that have to do with your previous comment…?
That a piece of an engine that’s used on most of the major widebodies of the time fell out due to poor maintenance…?
And somehow you’re conflating that with a legitimate concern over engine mounts…?
You’re all over the place, dude.
Engines have fallen off other aircraft or catastrophically failed otherwise, and those have caused crashes, fatalities and injuries.
But somehow you’re OCD over the MD-11 because it happened ONCE?🤣
PanAmCLPE@reddit
American 191 was caused by faulty maintenance, the continential plane that caused 4590's crash was a cause of faulty maintenance (yes, again) and UPS 2976, we don't know yet, probably the same.
YMMV25@reddit
Quick, now do all the incidents and accidents related to 737s… go!
YMMV25@reddit
I’m not sure where your information is coming from, but the fleet is already grounded per an Emergency AD stemming from the SDF accident. Once a fix for the identified deficiencies is found and implemented, the aircraft no longer needs to be grounded.
Valuable-Concern8008@reddit (OP)
I said the grounding was temporary. People are asking for it to be grounded permanently and to never fly again.
UrgentSiesta@reddit
Which “people”…?
Do they know ANYTHING about aircraft…? Doesn’t seem so.
Valuable-Concern8008@reddit (OP)
Congressman Morgan McGarvey
the_Q_spice@reddit
Who has failed to articulate a single reason the airframe is deficient…
Because he’s a politician and not an aerospace engineer or maintenance technician.
He doesn’t know the first thing he’s talking about. It’s like a random person saying a bridge should be torn down because there’s nothing supporting the span; because they don’t understand how trusses, suspension cables, or counter levers work.
Laypeople who have no education on technical matters should have no place in making technical determinations: because they let emotions guide them because they have no knowledge to do so otherwise.
UrgentSiesta@reddit
Oh, so we should all just jump and execute whatever ridiculous decision a random politician came up with? 🤣
Valuable-Concern8008@reddit (OP)
I never said that smh. Jesus Christ you are defending an aircraft like it's a death penalty trial. Calm down please
UrgentSiesta@reddit
It’s EXACTLY what you answered to my question of which “people”.
Politicians aren’t experts in much of anything upon which they opine, so you’ll have to do better.
Valuable-Concern8008@reddit (OP)
Correction, I looked at your posts, and it seems like you just enjoy being combative. Well, good day. I am not asking for nor do I want that here
YMMV25@reddit
“People” are stupid. I care about what the FAA, NTSB, and manufacturer have to say. Aside from that, there are no parties qualified to make a decision on this.
Kanyiko@reddit
Let's just look at this for a moment.
The DC-10 has had a service life of 55 years, during which 55 accidents and incidents happened, of which 32 were hull loss accidents.
The MD-11 has had a service life of 35 years, during which 50 accidents and incidents happened, of which 11 were hull loss accidents.
The Boeing 747 has had a service life of 56 years, during which 173 accidents and incidents happened, of which 65 were hull losses.
The Boeing 737 has had a service life of 58 years, during which 529 accidents and incidents happened, of which 234 were hull losses. Some of which happened with Boeing 737-MAX8's which were airframes less than a year old at the time of their accidents.
As per your logic... shouldn't it be the Boeing 737 and 747 which should be banned then, instead of the McDonnell-Douglas DC-10 and MD-11?
(Fellow aviation afficionado's - let OP work this one out by himself. If he has any common sense he will work out the same you have already worked out.)
Valuable-Concern8008@reddit (OP)
ok, but crashes on 737s are usually pilot or ATC error, not error with the planes themselves (with the exception of the 737-MAX which I think should be out of the skies as well). Most DC-10/MD-11 crashes I have mentioned have been mechanical.
Kanyiko@reddit
Meanwhile, you had a series of Boeing 707 and 747 accidents spanning 25 years, which were due to an engine pylon design flaw that was ported over from the 707 to the 747, and which caused several fatal accidents before it was finally resolved.
- In 1968 BOAC 712 (a 707) had an uncontained engine failure followed by an engine departing, resulting in an intense blaze that could not be extinguished (since the fire suppression system was within the engine nacelle that had fallen off). A successful emergency landing was made but not everybody got off the plane before it was consumed by fire.
- In 1987, a TransBrazil 707 lost one engine in flight due to the design issue. It made a successful emergency landing.
- In 1991, China Air Cargo 358 (a 747) had two engines fall off (no 3 detaching and taking no 4 with it) resulting in the death of all five crew.
- In 1992, Trans-Air Service 671 (a 707) had two engines fall off (no 3 detaching and taking no 4 with it). The aircraft made a successful emergency landing.
- Also in 1992, a month after Trans-Air 671, another 707, this time flown by Tampa Colombiana, had an engine fall off. It made a successful emergency landing.
- Still in 1992, six months after the Tampa Colombiana accident, an El Al Cargo 747 lost engines 3 and 4 after take-off from Amsterdam. The aircraft not only lost the engines but also hydraulics for the flaps on the affected wing; when it deployed its flaps only those on the left side deployed, creating an asymmetric lift condition which made the aircraft uncontrollable. The aircraft flipped and crashed right into residential housing, killing both the crew and dozens on the ground.
- Early in 1993, Japan Air Lines Cargo 46E, a 747, lost its number 2 engine when the pylon failed on that one. The aircraft made a successful emergency landing.
Seperately, there's TWA flight 800, the 747 that went down near New York in 1996. This was a dual design issue - the center-wing fuel tank was heated up by an air conditioning unit which had been designed in proximity to the tank - causing a large amount of fuel vapors; these vapors had then been ignited by a short-circuited fuel quantity meter. The presence of both heat sources near to, and potential ignition points within the center-wing tank were noted as two design flaws in the accident report.
The 737 had two notorious series of accidents following design issues:
- The Dual Servo Valve failures on the rudder power control unit that brought down two 737s and very nearly brought down a third in the early 1990s (United 585 - fatal; USAir 427 - fatal; and Eastwind 517 - crew lost control twice but managed to bring the aircraft home); this was traced to a design fault on the power control unit which Boeing was forced to rectify.
- And the TCAS failures on the Boeing 737MAX in the late 2010s which brought down two 737s (LionAir 610 and Ethiopian 302 - both fatal) and which stemmed from a poor design and implementation of the TCAS feature, including its reliance on just a single data probe - something Boeing already KNEW could cause issues (see the Birgenair 301 and AeroperĂş 603 accidents, both involving Boeing 757s in 1996 - and both due to data probe blockages); and the fact that TCAS would reset to default after every control imput, meaning that if it malfunctioned it would keep imputting the wrong commands over and over again.
Happy-Table-9515@reddit
Do you think all objects 50 years or older should be disposed of?
Valuable-Concern8008@reddit (OP)
No, but I do think aircraft should because metal in them can rust. Also, the DC-10/MD-11 series have been having serious incidents since the plane was new. In Flight 191, the aircraft involved was only 7 years old.
Jessie_C_2646@reddit
Flight 191 was caused by incorrect maintenance practises. They used a forklift to hold up the engines while connecting/disconnecting and as a result tore the mounting bolt holes.
Hdjskdjkd82@reddit
Umm aircraft already do have a life cycle and flight time limit. Basically when they hit that limit, they are no longer airworthy unless the manufacturers develops a life extension package.
And aircraft age hasn’t been a factor in any accident that we know of.
Valuable-Concern8008@reddit (OP)
Not directly, but by proxy it could be (ValuJet 592, looking at you). The MD-11 has constantly had issues and the one that caused flight 2976 (pylon) to crash has been there for a long time. A similar issue is what caused the deadliest aviation accident on US soil.
Hdjskdjkd82@reddit
Valuejet root cause is fire, not metal fatigue.
And I refuse to comment on 2976 until the investigation is complete. Let the experts sort that one out.
Valuable-Concern8008@reddit (OP)
I was talking about age. Had they used a newer, better quality aircraft, there wouldn't be expired generators in the first place.
railker@reddit
Chemical oxygen generators have an expiry date regardless of the aircraft, they'll all be replaced perhaps multiple times through an aircraft's service with an airline. The ValuJet plane could have been 2 days old for all it mattered as the generators were shipped as cargo.
UrgentSiesta@reddit
Wrong
Valuable-Concern8008@reddit (OP)
the fact you just commented wrong without any explanation
killerrobot23@reddit
No offense but you have no clue what you are talking about. We have experts in the FAA and NTSB for a reason.
Valuable-Concern8008@reddit (OP)
calm down, I'm not asking for legislation. I'm just stating my opinion
SmartRooster2242@reddit
This is fron all your years in aeronautical engineering?
UrgentSiesta@reddit
You’re opinion is half baked, at best
Happy-Table-9515@reddit
Indeed, metal can rust, but much more importantly it can fatigue. So doing inspections to make sure they’re not fatigued outside limits, seems to be the way. That’s what’s currently being done. And before you go there, yes, humans can make mistakes causing other humans to get hurt, or worse.
CT-1065@reddit
I'm awaiting the return of the FedEx MD-11s and the 10 Tanker DC-10s, and I'm fine with them coming back when the investigators and operators are ready to do so
Traditional_Party154@reddit
I think that no matter if they get permanently grounded or not, we will see them all go sooner than later. o7
Valuable-Concern8008@reddit (OP)
That's fair. UPS has since conducted a "sudden" retirement of all of their MD-11 freighters.
Traditional_Party154@reddit
This plane could've been amazing and it's service did go a long way but it is mostly a good idea (at least for the time), bad execution.
Fluffy_Muffins_415@reddit
I'm anxiously waiting for the FedEx MD-11s so I can watch them