A Greek reporter asked the French president during his visit to Athens today: “What will France do if Greece’s sovereignty is threatened in the Aegean?” Macron responded, “If your sovereignty is at risk, do what you have to do; we will be here.” What do you guys think of this statement?
Posted by Starfalloss@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 511 comments
nikos198289@reddit
Greece has France and turkey has Germany…that was always the game and Germany in a couple of decades will be mostly Muslim country,they will follow grea Britain falling…
Istar10n@reddit
How much is Turkey threatening Greece?
guywiththemonocle@reddit
90 percent of turkey is anti erdogan and pro mavi vatan
Frenyth@reddit
So Erdogan won't be reelected... Right ?
officer996@reddit
At least he doesnt get slap from his wife like macaron
guywiththemonocle@reddit
you have a fundemental misunderstanding of how elections work in terms of voter behavior. people don't always get to vote for what they like in absolute terms, but always vote for who they like the best out of all possible options. For example, if 90 percent of the country don't like erdogan, but if more than 51% dislikes erdogan less than they dislike the opposition, erdo will win.
Significant-Ad-7182@reddit
We can promise that the government after Erdogan will have the same policy regarding the Aegean and Cyprus.
Sure there will be less threats thrown towards Greece simply because it's a move to hype up his right wing voters and a CHP government would have no need for it.
xr3dxi@reddit
Well, about that...
can_pacis@reddit
We can’t promise that
Mithlorin@reddit
Lol, true that!
BranchNational4959@reddit
How can you say that when elections show the opposite.
guywiththemonocle@reddit
Elections don't show the opposite. Here is my other comment: "people don't always get to vote for what they like in absolute terms, but always vote for who they like the best out of all possible options. For example, if 90 percent of the country don't like erdogan, but if more than 51% dislikes erdogan less than they dislike the opposition, erdo will win."
BranchNational4959@reddit
Fair enough but thats a really low bar for the opposition to surpass. How can you be worse in the eyes of the people when your political opponent is a literal murderous dictator. Didn't he also put to jail one of his most prominent political opponents?
guywiththemonocle@reddit
The perception of erdogan is bad but not at the scale of murderous dictator - including in my eyes. I don't know what exactly you are referring to. The perception is more close to; in opposition supporters' eyes: above-the-law, corrupt, extreme autocrat: in erdogan's voters' eyes: ruined the economy and now I can't feed my family, he needs to go next election. He did put Ekrem Imamoglu in jail, you are right. As a fun side note: erdogan himself was politically prisoned when he was in Ekrem's seat literally. (both were the top candidates to run for presidency/prime ministership while being the mayor of istanbul)
Xawlet@reddit
This is such a reddit comment. I can't. "90% of the turks on the far left leaning american site Reddit are anti erdgogan"
guywiththemonocle@reddit
Do you or did you live in Turkey?
Active-Radish2813@reddit
Reddit isn't radical left, it's radically center-left.
Remarkable_Agent_810@reddit
Ufak at civcivler de yesin amın feryadı 😂😂
guywiththemonocle@reddit
kendi ulkenden bihabersin
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Wr say we have maritime rights, Greece says we dont cuz of their islands. And they say it’s threatening their sovereignty
Jack55555@reddit
But how does that work? Lets take Samos or Lesvos for example. Those islands have zero right to some coastal/maritime territory? So as soon as I stand in the water on the beach in Samos, I will be standing in Turkey? How does that work?
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
I wanna go shipping from my shore. As soon as I take out, I’m in Greece?
It goes both ways. And it’s more unfair more us. They literally claim we have no maritime zone although we have thousands of km long shore
A sensible approach would be just sharing the damn area for everyone regardless and not claim domination on either half but Greece’s response is this is EU’s border and you need to deal with the entire EU not with us.
I mean it’s just antogonizing and not solvable at all. Even their deal with the EU crap. They didnt ask anyone when they made a deal with Israel. Thry dont need to.
They just wanna make us the enternal enemy that’s it.
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
You're not in Greece when you step out of Turkish soil, you're in Greece when you're closer to Greek soil than to Turkish soil. It's a very simple concept.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
That’s not what the Greek claims bro
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
AFAIK that's exactly what Greece says. The difference is that both Greece and the UN recognize the Greek islands as what they are... Greek soil. Turkey doesn't.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Um, yeah? Why exactly would I be denied waters when I have hundreds of kilometers shore?
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
Greece has almost double your coastline, how is that even relevant? Nobody denied you water, it's illegal to deny passage anyway under international law. Turkey's issue isn't that someone "denied waters" or passage to them, it's that they want waters that are closer to major Greek islands to be Turkish because "islands don't count as Greek land / soil".
I mean... get a grip.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Yeah it's 50/50 today. and no if you have islands and a mainland, your island doesnt triumph over my mainland. very simple
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
According to who? It doesn't "triumph", it's 50/50, as it should be. Island is still land. Being surround by water does not change the fact it's sovereign land populated by people. Hello?
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
you having an island there doesn mean my mainland doesnt have maritime rights and people? Hello?
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
Nobody said your mainland doesn't have maritime rights, other than you.
I've said 3 times now the rights are the same, it's 50/50, that's how it works.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
That’s not the Greece’s position with unclos. Educate yourself
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
lmao you're now replying, realizing you're talking out of your ass, and deleting your comments immediately. Be better!
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
I did not delete any comment at all lol.
You are imagining things. Like how you are imagining France will fight and they will give you the Aegean
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
lmao I literally got notifications and read your comments, which are now deleted. You're hilarious hahahaha
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
Yes it is. Greece's position is exactly that, that islands, like the mainland, have EEZ.
At least you stopped crying like a kid "MY MAINLAND DOESN'T HAVE MARITIME RIGHTS UAAAAH" and typed a real sentence though, that's progress.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
eez being based on islands DOES mean youy get 95% idiot.
Seriously. Educate yourself
Yavannia@reddit
UNCLOS doesn't work like that If a sea border is less than 24nm (12 from each side) then the border is set in the middle, so what you are describing wouldn't happen in these narrow areas, in these narrow areas the situation would be similar to how it is now.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Well, thank you. But that’s not how the entire conflict is portrayed by the Greek government Im sorry.
Jack55555@reddit
Sorry I didn't word it right, same goes for your example yes. It's such a mess, they need to talk this over.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Obviously we cant. We have been trying. But we havent been the side blocking a solution
I mean you can quite literally see my initial comment. I said we have maritime rights. Nothing even political. Got downvoted.
The fact that we have rights is baffling to them. WTF
New_Parking9991@reddit
dude lying trough his teeth anyway.
Greece's position is according to law we are entitled to ''X'' if you disagree law says we go to international court.
Turkey says international court for maritime borders only if you agree to package deal that includes grey zones, i.e whatever rock or island in the aegean we might feel its turkish we can contest it.
Greece denies.
Also turkish side has taken action (Turkish libya memorandum, not just vs greece but tried to drill in Cyprus's waters,using military threats in the Aegean even when optic cables between islands, even against Italians or Dutch research ships etc).
Turkey is is using military pressure and threats to force Greece to give up sovereignty and not follow the standard procedure.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Sorry, but not lying about anything
International law that we are not a party to even though it involves and ignores our rights directly. Of course we are opposing it.
You always escape from bilateral agreements about this for fair share instead of domination on either side saying this is EU border and you cant do it. Next thing we know you are in bed with Israel regarding a similar topic. What happened to EU borders?
What happened is you are lying through your teeth
And dont even get started with military pressure. You are violating several international agreements militarizing Aegean islands.
Mucklord1453@reddit
You made Lausanne null and void when your president personally burned down the Greek sections of Istanbul, contrary to that treaty, in 1955
Interesting-Bug-7394@reddit
And they also broke the Lausanne treaty in regards to the Greeks of Imbros and Tenedos. And then they have the audacity to talk about the treatment of ‘Turkish’ minorities in Thrace …
New_Parking9991@reddit
Customary law affects everyone its not about UNCLOS. When countries have disputes then international court and not military threat.
You are trying to portray the situation in a way that make you seem reasonable,but you are not making any sense. Turkey no having signed UCLOS it does not mean you can just ignore customary and make agreements with Libya ignoring Greece's(and even egypt's ) opinions, especially when you refuse to go to court in standard procedure.
According to annoucement of your own goverment its against international law when countries make agreements without consulting 3rd parties involved,so yea...thats the amount of bs we deal with.
Yea we saw about Karpathos turkish opinion on what is violated,totally reasonable.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Oh now it makes sense to you how bullshit the situation is but it’s the method how we oppose it now that’s wrong
You basically make an agreement without us about waters that we were using before the 1982 agreement and tell us, hey we agreed without you that these waters dont belong to you anymore. If you dont comply we will portray you as the agressor
Also, it’s not even like we didnt try to cooperate. We said fuck the maritime borders. Everyone uses everything. You said you cant make such an agreement because it’s EU borders etc while you had no such problems while getting in bed with Israel. Your intentions are maximalist and your purpose is antagonization
I dont care about your islands at all. But keep them unarmed as you agreed and dont try to deny me entry to my waters based on agreements I wasnt including making
New_Parking9991@reddit
mate, you literally said in previous comment that because you did not sing UNCLOS you pretty much can do anything you want and you dont have to recognize customary law.
So in that sense Turkey decides what is international law,under that belief of course your country will never be agressor and the other side is maximalist and antagonist.
Of course people in your country believe that because thats the propaganda you have been fed, after we are talking for a country that the leader of 20 years can openly threaten bombing the capital of neighboring nation.
Of course ''your waters'' because you decided so based on your own thinking, anything that says otherwise is violating international law according to your goverment.
Makes total sense.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
We didnt sign it and dont accept it because it's HEAVILY favoring Greece. In it's most simplest state it means any fisherman from Turkey cant go further than a swims length? What kinda bullshit makes you think you can agree among yourselves and deny my people their rights? If "international" customary law is a way of theft , yea I will call it maximalist.
That doesnt mean we can do whatever we want. We did try to cooperate as I mentioned but you are thinking there is an agreement that favours us and it's unfair and if we portray Turkey as aggressive, which is not very hard to do tbh, we will get away with it
Makes total sense, keep playing the victim. It's not me who is pulling bullshit like this and beg France to enforce it.
New_Parking9991@reddit
you do not seem to understand what i am saying nor what is the argument of the other side.Yet you have a very strong opinion on the matter.
You are confusing what international law is (something your own goverment also clearly states it follows) and try to portray another country as agressor,as i said in previous comments given the situation there makes sense.
Your comment on france also seems really weird,i guess when someone has no argument makes a nonsensical one.
At the end we do agree, what Turkey decides and can enforce militarily is what is international law.
That is totaly the opinion of a non agressor country.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
I understand you very well.
What you dont understand is "international law" is not a unified bible. It is a collection of multiple agreements signed and prepared by multiple countries, not all agreements are binding for everyone. It's especially not binding if you didnt sign it. And it should be a joint effort by countries so that no one gets screwed over.
The law you are referring to a basically a theft. And no you dont get to tell we dont follow international law because of your stupid maximalist claims.
As far as military enforcement? You are vioaling multiple international agreements that we are a party and not party by arming islands in the Aegean.
But no, is it even possible for you not to follow the international law. You very well behaved good boy.
New_Parking9991@reddit
in order to establish borders in the sea if both disagree then international court is the only way. Turkey not agreeing or wanting different process and using military threats and other actions is indeed not accordance to international law. Having signed UNCLOS has nothing to do with this.
So the law is not theft,you are ideed not understanding. Other than this there is not much to talk about.
Your country has decided to baptise their policies international law,has decided ignore or break treaties in the past, and decide how to intepret others on their own.
In that sense yes,as i said there is nothing to say because in your mindset Turkey's policy=law anything other is ''theft'' or maximalism.
As i said and looking at other of your comments in this thread, you do not understand the opinion of the other side or what international law is,yet you have a very strong opinion of it.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Nah nah, this is a border dispute, created by the agreement you are referring to. Having or not having signed it is directly related to this. Because apart from basic human right issues, agreements you do not sign do not bind you. That is a very basic principle of the "international law". So no you actually cannot decide among YOURSELVES what MY maritime rights are.
This is the THEFT part.
New_Parking9991@reddit
you just repeat the same thing over and over,verifying that you do not understand.
Look how strong opinion you have about YOUR borders and RIGHTS.
It is clear as i said Turkey gets to decide on their own what other people's borders and rights are without their input and military threat.
Something more to add? If possible please do so, the more you comment the more obivous how totally reasonable and non agressive your country is.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
OH MY GOD
A GUIDE TO THE BASICS OF INTERNATIONAL LAW
A treaty can come into force once a certain number of nations ratify the treaty, as specified in the treaty, or upon signature by the parties. However, a treaty cannot bind a nonparty or non-participating state. In addition, specific provisions in most treaties will identify when it becomes legally binding, how compliance will be monitored and measured, how other nations may accede to the treaty, how and whether the treaty may be amended or modified, and how and when the treaty will terminate. Treaties are only binding upon states that choose to ratify the treaty. Generally speaking, states may not invoke a conflicting domestic law to avoid an obligation under an international agreement. Bilateral treaties between two states are deposited with one of the parties to the treaty, while multilateral treaties between
https://www.law.georgetown.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/A-Guide-to-the-Basics-of-Intl-Law.pdf
I'm repeating because you cant understand a simple fact
I'm saying I have an equal right in the Aegean as you. And you dont get to tell me you own whole sea because you agreed among your friends you own it.
WHAT THE FUCK do you not understand?
New_Parking9991@reddit
you do not seem to understand that greece's position is not about enforcing UNCLOS on turkey the position is if turkey disagrees we go to international court as both countries disagree on maritime borders.
It seems you do not understand.
Your country does not say you have equal rights in the aegean you are saying you are entitled to the aegean and island have no EEZ. You have proceeded and made agreements with Libya and use military force to threaten(even when optic fiber cables between islands for example).
Despite all that your own goverment says '' Turkey follows international law and that countries cannot decide on maritime borders without every neighbors agreement'' despite making an agreement with Libya.
As i said your country has decided on its own that turkish policy is international law and their own intepretation of treaties.
How more ridiculous can you get.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Keep repeating like a parrot that I dont understand yea. But it seems you misunderstood me completely
And yea we are entitled in the Aegean what the fuck have I been saying. Just as much as you. 50/50. as opposed to your claims that you own it all
Yea we can make agreemetns with Libya, that's not in the Aegean and that's none of your concern and that's not a topic in the Aegean dispute. You are just resorting to pathetic whataboutism.
And yes we follow international law, that we agreed to. That's what everybody does. See the article I sent you? read it. You do not do shit about any of the agreements that your country doesnt sign either. This is not an interpretation of treaties. This is a very basic fact about international law.
This is the part you misunderstood.
I dont need to do shit about that agreement. I dont have to go to the court. I'm saying if you make certain amendments I may sign it. But if you dont, I can just wipe my ass with it.
GOT IT?
New_Parking9991@reddit
then you are simply trolling me, not that refuse to understand but because at the end of the day you dont care.
You serve as a classic example of what i was talking about,Turkey does not want to share fairly, they decided islands have no EEZ and can openly threaten, or ignore third parties and make agreements in violation of international law.
That is the definition of agressive policy. I do not misunderstand anything,its just that when someone reads your comment thats exactly what he/she understands,so if possible keep posting so people can see your real opinion.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
50/50 is not fair? Lolz
New_Parking9991@reddit
50/50 is fine, but islands have EEZ.
Islands big as crete with people living on them, so you do not want 50/50 you want to ignore those islands and people.
And you treat this opinion as international law according to your own words and also take agressive actions.
So yes, expecting Crete to have EEZ or Rhodes is not maximalist at all, on the side ignoring all greek islands and Egypt to make illegal deal with libya is not maximalist.
Make it make sense.
Bayoj@reddit
UNCLOS has a customary nature but as a persistent objector, Turkey is not subjected to that customary law.
New_Parking9991@reddit
turkey simply ignores EEZ by islands,so its more than that.
International court as i explained to the other dude would not simply be Greece gets 100% on the contrary alot of greek would not like the results.
I explained in many comment to the other dude as well.
Lumpy-Tone-4653@reddit
What about intrudingvour airsoaces 2000 times in year (that actually happened), sending hordes of immigrants to our vorder claiming that our border is open(which isnt) (that actually happened),your head of state saying his missile can reach athens and that he might come suddenly one night (he actually said those) and claimming that muslim turks in greek thrace are being oppressed (they are not).
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Are you sure those 2000 times werent just we flying in our aerospace and you thinking it was youra? Same crap you pull with Aegean?
Lumpy-Tone-4653@reddit
Bruh, even if we goa long with turkish absurd maritime claims that reach even to CRETE...airspace doesnt work like maritime zones...What authority does a turksih aircraft have flying over a greek island?none...its not "the shit we pull to the agean" its erdawg doing the same provications that he has been doing for decades.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
“Absurd maritime claims”… mf we have hundreds of kilometers shore and you say we have no economic zone in the Aegean.
Airspace does not have different rules than maritime. We fly within our rights and you claim you are being threatened. Same bullshit as the sea
Lumpy-Tone-4653@reddit
How if flying above another countries territory not against airspace?Also airspace has been breached in the thrace border too.
Also we have thousands of islands(actually big and habitable with popukations and cultures) IN THE AGEAN.Turkey has Two such islands in the agean,both of them have maritime zones that connect to turkey.Also turkey uses the same maritime doctrine as greece ,in the black sea...
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
No, you have islands that falls within our maritime zone. When we fly there you claim we are threatening you because oh well, you have islands there
Lumpy-Tone-4653@reddit
No it literally isnt the same.
Also lole i said turkey has alsos been breaching greek airspace in thrace, and in ares where they dont even claim in their maritime wet dream.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
It’s not a wet dream. It’s just your maximalist idiotism out the window
Lumpy-Tone-4653@reddit
Bruh...
peepmet@reddit
"We say we're threatened by NATO, Ukraine has turned towards NATO. And they say we're wrong to invade."
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Our maritime rights are in accordance with our shores. You say we dont have those rights because your islands fall within our borders
Not the same situation at all
peepmet@reddit
"because your islands fall within our borders"
Theeeere it is. I was wondering when the old Imperialism would come out. Honestly, it was far faster than I thought.
PS. It's not me that says you don't have those rights. It's 168 UN member states, including even China (plus the EU and a few other).
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Aaaand here is your maximalist bullshit thinking the entire Aegean is yours lol
peepmet@reddit
Indeed, how maximalist of me to say that the Aegean belongs to the country literally everyone says it belongs to.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Sure bud
Volaer@reddit
gushi1-@reddit
Guy in the middle picture looks Albanian.
More_Ad_5142@reddit
bait bait bait. Resist answer
Kitsooos@reddit
He actually looks Jewish to me. Was he per chance born in a Jew-heavy city with an infamous Crypto-Jewish community ?
More_Ad_5142@reddit
People’s ethnicities were very fluid back then. He identified as a Turk, was a Turcophone and in fact was probably the architect of modern Turkish nationalism. So who cares really?
Active-Radish2813@reddit
Everyone is albania
Careful-Evening-5187@reddit
Very Semitic.
Volaer@reddit
Makes sense, his paternal lineage was in part Albanian from what is now North Macedonia.
CockamouseGoesWee@reddit
We all have sex with each other, you cannot identify differences based on appearance alone.
Volaer@reddit
Was that supposed to be an attempt at a flex?
I never mentioned appearance or the Soviet Union. Did you really mean to respond to me?
UnhappyAddition7281@reddit
DhulQarnayn_@reddit
Hahaha
treadbolt5@reddit
Ew is that Bahceli
FantasticQuartet@reddit
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Mavivatan precedes Erdogan and it’s about maritime rights
Ninevolts@reddit
Erdogan's plans include creating a corridor to reach Libya he wants to "colonize" Libya for his real estate mogul friends. He doesn't care about Mavi vatan or anything. He cares about those beach resorts in Cyrenaica.
Reasonable-Crew-3128@reddit
No, it's about being delusional.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Oh we think we have rights in the Aegean because we have a shore there. How idiotic of us
Reasonable-Crew-3128@reddit
Yes, you have a shore a couple kilometers away from Greece, from the territories of Lesbos, Chios, Rhodos, Kos, Samos. Yet you think the logical maritime sovereignity should be somewhere halfway in the Aegean between mainland Greece and Anatolia. That's not how it works and you know it. You just want to be delusional.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Lolz. Maximalist bullshit at its best
OnlyZac@reddit
It’s not maximalist to have an exclusive zone around your territory (islands), especially when they share a boundary with an unfriendly power
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
It’s a zone you claim due to an international agreement we didnt sign and it’s not binding, because guess what, you dont agree among your friends that what’s mine is actually yours and take it from me
Practically we use our half of the Aegean, and you bad mouth us like we expad into your territory. It’s just pathetic
atzitzi@reddit
Yet you implement International Sea Law ala carte in the Black Sea.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
You want black sea too? well you cant have it sorry
atzitzi@reddit
No we don't want Black Sea. We want international sea law implemented everywhere as it should and everyone to be lawful.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
nothing is unlawful.
atzitzi@reddit
Threatening Greece with an ongoing Casus Beli in case we implement UNCLOS in Aegean is unlawful indeed. You might not have signed it, but non parties are still bound by its provisions. Signing it might be optional but UNCLOS dictates international maritime standards and even non signatories countries must act in compliance.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
https://www.law.georgetown.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/A-Guide-to-the-Basics-of-Intl-Law.pdf
A treaty can come into force once a certain number of nations ratify the treaty, as specified in the treaty, or upon signature by the parties. However, a treaty cannot bind a nonparty or non-participating state. In addition, specific provisions in most treaties will identify when it becomes legally binding, how compliance will be monitored and measured, how other nations may accede to the treaty, how and whether the treaty may be amended or modified, and how and when the treaty will terminate. Treaties are only binding upon states that choose to ratify the treaty. Generally speaking, states may not invoke a conflicting domestic law to avoid an obligation under an international agreement. Bilateral treaties between two states are deposited with one of the parties to the treaty, while multilateral treaties between three or more states are registered with the United Nations and made available to the public.
Educate yourself
atzitzi@reddit
There is the thing called “customary law” and 12nm are part of it that’s why Turkey has 12nm territorial waters in Black Sea and eastern Mediterranean, just not in the Aegean. International law is not a buffet where you can get this meal but leave the other. You either follow it or you don’t. In the case of Aegean If Greece expands its territorial waters to 12nm according to unclos and customary law, and Turkey uses its warships to challenge the new borders, this is an illegal move which makes Turkey the clear aggressor. Not to mention that Turkey threatens Greece with direct war as it has an active casus belli (in violation of the charter of UN) in case Greece simply exercises its internationally accepted lawful right to 12nm TW. Your president at least has dropped the facade that Turkey is acting according to law and talks directly about war of conquest.
SOHONEYSAME@reddit
y people forget Kastellorizo bruh.
Starfalloss@reddit (OP)
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
And how many news regarding Greece can bomb Ankara without us knowing it?
Starfalloss@reddit (OP)
Quite literally none no Greek government official has ever threatened Turkey.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/s/wWOaV0HOi9
Quite literally lol
Starfalloss@reddit (OP)
Yeah that was in response to what Erdogan said.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
I dont support Erdogan at all but what he said was within the context of militarized islands, which violates several international agreements with multiple parties
FantasticQuartet@reddit
Ujemegaz@reddit
Big W for Erdogan 😂
Opening-Garlic2383@reddit
none bro, we can't even protect our food culture. Greece call everything greek, Germany stole our doner. Yeah we threat them, we would stole their food if there are any not equivalent dishes in turkey.
bozzikpcmr@reddit
relatively often, couple times a month you just don't see it on the news because it would cause enormous outrage
Ujemegaz@reddit
Yes 😂
Ionesomecowboy@reddit
Blue Homeland is a reactionary response to Greece's claims, one that you can understand with one look at Kastellorizo. Greece is arming the islands that are supposed to have limited military like local police/gendarmerie with "defensive" weapons such as LORA, a ballistic missile that violates the Missile Technology Control Regime and PULS, which is multiple rocket launchers.
Territorial waters in the Aegean Sea is 6nm. Airspace is the same as that but Greece unilaterally assumes it's 10nm which is the reason of their "airspace violation" claims.
Total_Wrongdoer_1535@reddit
I mean if Türkiye attacks Greece then ofc the whole of NATO and EU should be siding with Greece. Yet this by no means should void the fact that Türkiye is a NATO member and must be protected if its attacked by a foreign power.
thatMrGecko@reddit
not surprising
levenspiel_s@reddit
Yeah, but also, what can he say?
thatMrGecko@reddit
he could say "we the french government will defend french people and the french soil, nothing more". this is what I wish for my own government as well.
but then the world would think that france will stop doing the imperialism
Historical_Mad1917@reddit
What „imperialism”? Greece and France are both members of NATO and the EU. They’re bound by NATO’s defensive Article 5, and EU’s defense clause.
thatMrGecko@reddit
so is turkey, and you know it, and you wish it weren't so, but it is.
article 5 is for attacks from non-nato countries.
funnily enough when turkey was attacked by a non-nato country we were scolded for defending ourselves. wonder what could explain such a thing?
Total_Wrongdoer_1535@reddit
Scolded? I wasn’t aware of that. Surely NATO should have and would have stand with Türkiye. As far as I am aware, it did so.
NoWriting9513@reddit
If I understand correctly your comment assumes that he was speaking about Turkey. And he probably was. But everybody understanding who he was talking about isn't a problem by itself?
thatMrGecko@reddit
that's some twisted logic
NoWriting9513@reddit
Eh. Maybe. But you were the one who was butthurt about it first.
puzzledpanther@reddit
EXTREMELY generous use of the word "attacked"
thatMrGecko@reddit
yes, we should have consulted you if it constituted an attack before taking down russian planes who didn't leave our airspace. you'd like if they bombed us?
puzzledpanther@reddit
Yeah, Russia sent ONE plane to bomb Turkey.
Tomie__@reddit
I don't think that's true, where did you get that, source? Article 5 only states that "an armed attack against one country in NATO will be considered an attack against them all", whoever gets attacked can invoke it, its a defensive pact that can be used against any aggressor.
Historical_Mad1917@reddit
You don’t know me, so your „you wish” is straight out of your ass. My opinion is that Turkey is a very valuable member of NATO and it’ll stay this way.
Article 5 may be for attacks from non-NATO countries, but EU’s defensive clause will apply. Turkey is not a member of EU, yet you omit that part - wonder why?
Your last paragraph is a result of a shameful decision by NATO. I won’t defend lack of action from NATO when you were attacked. But this doesn’t change the fact, that Macron’s answer was normal and to be expected.
Tomie__@reddit
It's not even true that Article 5 is only for attacks from non-NATO countries, I don't know where that person got that from. Article 5 only states that "an armed attack against one country in NATO will be considered an attack against them all", whoever gets attacked can invoke it against any aggressor.
dancesquared@reddit
What’s this in reference to?
VenatTheHeretec@reddit
I assume it references the airspace breach of the russian fighter which was shot down by turkey. It flew into Turkish airspace from Syria (I think) but did not actively attack turkey, but failed to leave the airspace in time after warnings.
Turkey got lots of flag from Germany, France and so on and discussions startet wheather stuff like this would be grounds for article 5. In turkey lots of people saw this as just another double standard where "the west" does not see turkey as a real ally but as a tool to access the middle east. By international law turkey was full within their rights and by extension you could argue any potential escalation from such violation should be covered by article 5 - no questions asked.
thatMrGecko@reddit
russian planes
Lord-Francis-Bacon@reddit
I think he would say the same for Turkey actually. I.em, France will be there.
Smooth_Comparison205@reddit
You could easily argue turkey is more imperialistic than France nowadays
thatMrGecko@reddit
and I do. what's your point?
Smooth_Comparison205@reddit
Turkey vs France — Sharp Comparison
⸻
Bottom Line
Yes I used chat gpt but it’s a non biased approach my direct comparison would much harsher on turkey
thatMrGecko@reddit
lol ai
SOHONEYSAME@reddit
defending Greece is NOT imperialism.
thatMrGecko@reddit
keep thinking that. spend your taxes on israeli and french weapons. good boy.
PretendTemperature@reddit
Its not imperialism when the other country asks for help to defend its land
Delicious-Gap1744@reddit
I couldn't disagree more.
France isn't JUST France, it's in the European union, which is a single market, and loose confederation. If there's an attack on Greece or any EU member it affects France.
Our countries in Europe are too small to matter globally, we need European solidarity and unity, especially in the face of the US distancing itself from Europe.
thatMrGecko@reddit
yes, and in this instance the eu is a tool that facilitates french imperialism. I don't know how this isn't obvious to everyone.
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
Do you know what the word imperialism means?
thatMrGecko@reddit
I'm guessing you don't
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
FYI when both countries want an alliance / defensive pact, imperialism is the last word you can use about it
thatMrGecko@reddit
so china's belt and road thing is not imperialism then?
no one forced those african countries to accept huge debt in exchange for infrastructure investments, but now china has control over most of that infrastructure.
this is pure imperialism. the same way france's military presence in sahel countries is imperialism. the same way turkish military presence in cyprus and investments in somalia is imperialism. some of these are with the smallar country's consent, some are not. that is literally irrelevant.
but no, you must think imperialism = empire. so, the stuff that romans, ottomans, british did, right? no. each and every world power and most of regional powers in history did a bit of imperialism in their time. I hate it, can't do anything about it, but at least I don't ingest the propaganda about how the nice southern european country of france is not imperialist at all.
the next time you being a comment with FYI, make sure you actually have the correct information.
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
I must not think anything. When BOTH countries benefit from a defensive alliance, imperialism is the last word you can use about it. Whataboutism and random arguments about China's deals with corrupt governments of African countries won't help your argument either. France and Greece are in the EU and already have a defensive alliance anyway.
And don't pretend that your issue here is that France is taking advantage of Greece, you're such a hypocrite - that's not your issue at all.
thatMrGecko@reddit
oh alright, now it's clear. just cause it says turkey next to my name, I must be twisting words to benefit my country because I'm just a simple turk and I for sure love and defend everything about my country. I must lack critical thinking skills and it is impossible for me to disagree, criticize and take issue with what my country, nation or government does.
yes, you got me. I'm wordsmithing to persuade randos like you that my dear country is blameless in all things. your observation is correct. it's not because you have as close a mind as my butt. it's not because you can't fathom a turk that has actually frigging studied this shit as their major and knows what imperialism exactly entails.
my friend. you can't even imagine how an alliance, or an organization like eu, un or nato can sometimes serve as vessels for imperialistic ambitions. all you can imagine is a dirty turk spilling words online to defend their country. and all you can do is parrot what your state-sponsored education told you about how eu is a union of values and principles, and downvote any comment that clashes with your world view.
I'm no longer engaging. have fun or whatever.
OokzVFX@reddit
Are you actually saying that defending an ally which you have commitments to is french imperialism? Hard to find something more stupid than: defending is imperialism.
thatMrGecko@reddit
defending a friend/ally is always a good excuse to do the imperialism, yes.
Frank_cat@reddit
How is it imperialism when Greece wants France to come to Greek land and sea when in danger?
If anything, imperialism is when another state wants to take foreign land and seas.
Hint hint.
thatMrGecko@reddit
you don't need to hint hint at me, I'll share your hatred of the ottoman empire. but expansionism is not the only type of imperialism. biggest and most obvious example is the us of course, but also the ussr in the 20th century and china in the 21st century has done the imperialism quite severely.
france and turkey has imperialist ambitions in the region - the mediterranean, the middle east, and a bit in africa. france for the longest time had a bunch of troops in the sahel region. turkey has bases and investments in somalia, of all places. you would argue these do not count as imperialism?
Delicious-Gap1744@reddit
How? That needs some explaining. The EU is a democracy, elected by the citizens of the 27 member states. And France is only 15% of the EU's population.
On top of that smaller countries are over-represented a lot in the EU, France has only 11.25% of seats in the European parliament, and on the Council of Europe and Council of ministers, each member state has the same amount of seats, so France has only 1/27th.
France has some influence in the EU, but it's a small part of the whole. No single country dominates EU politics, it's purposefully structured so that is impossible.
lejocko@reddit
France has signed the NATO treaty and the EU defense pacts. If Greece were under attack both would be triggered.
Much-Fishing1996@reddit
Well, that's a Daladier answer if I've ever heard one.
super_pasrelle@reddit
Please wait I am still Young enough to be drafted
DassakliPeynir@reddit
I am sorry my little frog eater you have to go 😔
Old-Cardiologist2853@reddit
The french filled their pockets by selling ti Greece things they don‘t need.
BurgurluGenc031@reddit
From the rulers having a good country relationships right after fighting with each others to a nowadays rules keep threating eachothers while doin nothing at the times that nothing happened between them. Sad very sad.
Comet7971@reddit
The idea is to keep both Greece and Turkey hostile to each other, so countries like France can sell them airplanes and shit.
DimGenn2@reddit
Please give me one example where a foreign country encouraged hostility between us.
roguenas@reddit
The campaign in Minor Asia was literally encouraged by both UK and France, before they backed away from supporting it...
DimGenn2@reddit
It was Greece itself that approached them in order to land in Smyrna, they originally wanted to only give us East Thrace. And the only backed away after the king was reinstated.
name---@reddit
Yeah, this always happens when its election season. Our retard politicians try to use it for votes.
throwraislander@reddit
Don't get me wrong, In Greece we have many shitheads and our politicians are certainly not helping the situation.
However.
The situation in Turkiye is completely different. A HUGE amount of the population is bigoted and believe in some crazy things. I heard people saying that the Islands should be Turkish because they are closer to Turkiye mainland or that you have to control again the Levant. A lot of people still have the imperial mindset that we should become bigger and more influential around your borders. Politically you have a dictatorship that is feeding the masses with pure hardcore nationalism making it even worse.
I have lived in Ankara totally for 7-8 months and spoke with all kinds of people. I have very good friends there and I was mostly welcomed. But you hear some weird opinions quite often that you won't hear in Greece easily.
Machiavelcro_@reddit
Türkey has drifted from the times of the secular Atatürk.
Careful-Evening-5187@reddit
Ataturk was the anomaly. Turkey just shifted back to it's normal position.
estoy_alli@reddit
Well, i won't say that turkish people are not like that, because i agree on that, that there are some unnecessary amount of brainrot people, but at the end its like that all around the world. But according to my personal experience, many greeks i have met in europe (referring mostly the western europe) were quite racists and biased and it was quite shocking that many brings enosis and cyrups to the topic even when what is being discussed is completely irrelevant.
Money_Swordfish4097@reddit
2 zionist pigs hahahahh
BurgurluGenc031@reddit
Calling them zionist while the man on right closing american missionary school right after converted a kid to christianity from muslim saying 'schools mission are not personal believings but teaching a knowledge'. Lmao
Constant_Cap8389@reddit
How do you say "Trust me bro" in French?
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit
Fais moi confiance frérot
enginbogachan@reddit
First, learn how to handle a beating from your wife, Mr. Macron.
Arkhendelos@reddit
Don't worry guys if your sovereignty is at risk, we will be there (violating your sovereignty)
/s
thatMrGecko@reddit
the "sovereignty in aegean" is in essence purely a legal confusion that both governments are milking to the fullest extent.
turkey never signed the agreement greece bases their sovereignty on, but also turkey's claims about our sovereignty in the aegean are based on nothing. in a normal world, the two sides would hash it out on the table and sign a new agreement that would benefit both of them. instead both countries spend our taxes on military.
stupid rule the world.
atzitzi@reddit
It is not a random agreement, it is called International Sea Law for a reason. You haven't signed it but you implement it Ala carte in the Black Sea.
LenintheSixth@reddit
I mean the Turkish thesis isn't that it's entirely bullshit, it is that the relevant clauses as drafted results in a nonsensical situation in the Aegean in particular. they don't have issues with it in other contexts.
atzitzi@reddit
The law doesn't work like this.You cannot cherry pick whatever works best for you and reject what doesn't.
zulutune@reddit
Therefore it’s not law, since Turkiye didn’t sign it.
atzitzi@reddit
There is the thing called “customary law” and 12nm are part of it. That is why Turkey has 12nm territorial waters in Black Sea and eastern Mediterranean, just not in the Aegean. International law is not a buffet where you can get this meal but leave the other. You either follow it or you don’t.
Fiery_Flamingo@reddit
You can guess the dates of Greek and Turkish elections based on the news stories on Aegean disagreements.
seriani@reddit
From your words you show that you thirst for blood and war.. However Israel said that you are their next target and i hope it doesn't happen because we don't want any more wars.
thatMrGecko@reddit
do you know what "/s" means?
seriani@reddit
I wish peace and prosperity for both nations..
Yes I know what that means "/s"
More_Ad_5142@reddit
Circlejerk. Greece and Turkey will never openly confront each other.
Vargau@reddit
https://m.youtube.com/shorts/Kn-mSHceYYQ
treadbolt5@reddit
Yea, and i hope that the dogs stop barking. Every 5 years one of the two us starts up again and i hate listening to it.
zulutune@reddit
Exactly. The dogs will stop barking when people start ignoring the dogs.
BranchNational4959@reddit
hehehe so true.
NiceOil1588@reddit
Ha ha ! Circus Maximus.
Crucco@reddit
I love the Greek accent in English. And the Greek accent in Italian. And the Greek culture (contemporary, not only classical or byzantine). And the Greek food. And Greece, the way it is such an evolved coutnry even now, despite the economic crisis and the centuries of abuse from the turks. I just love Greece guys, I think i should move there.
NGluck123@reddit
Considering the Greek-Israeli alliance, it is more likely that Greece becomes complicit in threatening the sovereignty of other countries.
Substantial-Peach-90@reddit
Such a delusional take 🤣 How can anyone say such things knowing the geopolitical reality of the area. Oh right, you have no clue!
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Considering their maximalist tendencies I can say they can reach for smth and cry Turks bad when they cant achieve it
And it makes good headlines in the european media to double down on their ignorant geopolitical views so it becomes a lose lose for everyone
Lumpy-Tone-4653@reddit
What exactly are thos emaximalist tendancies?
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Claiming the entire Aegean as yours? All of your narratives of aerospace and maritime violations are based on how we operate on our side of thr Aegean. But because you have islands, you think we have no rights from our shors and what we do is a violation of your sovereignty
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
You need to cope with the fact that we have islands and stop claiming their surrounding waters. It's simple as that. No one is claiming your coastline and its rights. The fact that you have a coastline doesn't mean the Aegean is divided 50/50 my guy. This isn't a Middle Eastern bazaar.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
I dont need to do anything. What you claim is not the situation anyway. Cry to France
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
It is the exact situation. You don't need to do anything but don't cry when France helps us defend.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
We wont do anything but they will defend what exactly? Lol you are such a bitch
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
Expand where? This alliance is in case you decide to do something stupid like attack one of our ships in the waters around our islands, or attack an island because we have "militarized it". Do you honestly think it would be smart of us to not purchase weapons and be a sitting duck for you?
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
You literally claim 95% of the Aegean, and think France will give it to you apparently lol
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
You are just lying, lol.
Smooth-Inspector-391@reddit
Islands are quite literally pieces of land. What the hell are you talking about
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
What the hell are you thinking about that according to your claims no one is allowed to practically leave Turkey shore? What the hell made you think that with an agreement which we didnt sign wouldnt cause a shit show like this?
Keep playing the victim.
puzzledpanther@reddit
Fucking rofl coming from a Turkish nationalist crying that you're the West's boogyman 24/7
You haven't read it have you? If it's shorter than a certain distance then the sea is shared between each side. No ships will be blocked.
You signed it for the Black Sea though. It just doesn't benefit you in the Aegean so you refuse to do so. It's still the international rule of law that the vast majority of countries go by (even Turkey when it benefits them as mentioned).
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Sigh
Lumpy-Tone-4653@reddit
You enforced it there tho
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
You want that area too?
Lumpy-Tone-4653@reddit
Its just pointing out hipocriy that the turksih giverment is displaying on the issue.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
No, we apply other areas of unclos because most of it is nothing new and conventions we have been a part of anyway. We said a particular clause would practically make the aegean sea greek lake and didnt sign it. Everything else is business as usual. Apart from your maximalism clause
Lumpy-Tone-4653@reddit
"Maximalist" and itd just what we rightfully have under a global charter that turkey didnt sign because it wasnt to their interest?That "clause" is not just a silly rule.Most international forums and duscussions about maritime rights ,take this charter as a standart....because thats what it is...the majority of states around the world have agreed to use it and turkey is capitalising by it in the frintiers that theg can, but when it comes to greece the turkish goverment simply cant accept it?Is turkey afraid of Greek fishermen next to greek islands?
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
yea, we do as well, like I said, except for entire sea claiming clause
puzzledpanther@reddit
I apologize. You didn't sign it.. you just volunteerily apply it.
You won't won't do the same in the Aegean though because it doesn't suit you.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Ummm yea? The unclos is mostly maritime conventions we have been a part of before the agreement anyway. No one contested the whole thing. We agreed with most of it. We did say we had a problem with the clause that denies us our own rights in the aegean and didnt sign it. The rest is business as usual in practice. Should we disrupt all maritime relations because of a poisinous clause there? What do you want?
If you want us to sign it and make it binding for us officially make amendments to make it fairer. Otherwise, I dont see what’s even your point
Lumpy-Tone-4653@reddit
Sending ships and military aircrafts next to our islands is pretty much threatening greek soveirgnitu...turkey doesnt have a good record with birdering countries, one you create a vassal in cyprus,the other you help azerbaitzan to ethnically cleanse armenians,the other you occupy oarts of syria (even duringvtimes when the giverment in charge was against it),other times funded militias in iraq,having a maritime dispute with georgia,having minor border disputes with iran.The only countries that tukrey doesnt directly intervene in or theten is bukgsria and azerbaitzan...and azerbaitzan is just mini-turkey.
So you tell me turkey has rights to have ships next to creete but greece doesnt?lmao what is this shit.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
I dont really care about crete
When we cruise the Aegean we pass by all those little islands. That’s not an aggression
How fancifully you ignored your attempted coup with Eoka and massacrr on the Turkish minority there
Karabag is Azerbaijans anyway. I dont see your point
Syria is Ergogans wet dream. I dont support it at all
Iran? That’s new
And you have a glass house buddy. How may ownership conflicts do you have exactly in the Balkans?
Lumpy-Tone-4653@reddit
First of all...i never mentioned our bagage feomt he cyrpsuvissue because we were talkinv about turkeys shit.I am more than glad to aknowledge the evils of EOKAB and the junta (we have a whole holiday for that).Also my point about the ethnic cleansing in Karabh was that Turkey isnt a good neighbor.Also iran and turkey have their little disputes arise every once in a few years ,both sides bring then up when it benefits them.
Finally,i dont say that you or the majority of turks support the stance of erdigan in any of those issues.
Now as about greece's conflicts we got....2-3.1) is with turkey of course in multiple lvels, the other is albania over a maritime issue over a rock that is already been handled by the UN since both albania and greece decided to put it there(its far less serious than the turkey one,and either noone nnows about it or noone cares enough),so the UN will just draw a line in the middle like they do most of the time.the third is kinda complicayed and its propably with Libya...its weird because few months ago the official goverment put out a map that claimed oarts of greek maritime zone under crete,tho later they put abither mao that didnt go against the greek map in that region,also erdogan did an agreement with haftar for maritime claims which might have been the reason for that?So i dont know if i should count the libya thing.
Our old conflict with Borth macedonia is offially in legal terms over and we never had any problems with Bulgaria or Italy after ww2.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Yeah, you didnt mention it because it's your shit and we had to take measures
It's just a national sport for you to portray us as the bad guys but at everyturn you try to screw us over and cry when you get your buttcheeks slapped
Lumpy-Tone-4653@reddit
Bruh what?did you hear anything that i said previously...?
whatevedoe@reddit
If you knew even a tiny bit about Greece you wouldn’t say ts. Turkish propaganda must be so bad.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
I dont watch TV so no propaganda. But most Greeks I talked with online think that because their islands are on our side of the Aegean we shouldn’t even have that side. And they base all our regular activities as a violation of their sovereignty
TheGuy839@reddit
Mate you lost a war, lost a territory. I am not Turk nor Greek but Turkey is just buthurt it lost territory. It sucks, I get it, but those islands are Greek. If you constantly violate their airspace, what do you expect?
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Im not saying their islands isnt theirs. Im saying we are well within our rights in the maritime of Aegean. But because they have islands that fall within that area, we are violating their sovereignty
Open a map. They think the entire Aegean is theirs and none of it is ours
TheGuy839@reddit
International waters boundaries are well defined. Problem is Turky doesnt recognize those islands as Greek.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
No, those islands are Greek. That was never our position. Our position has always been, we have maritime rights in the Aegean just much as Greece does. Equally. But their position is islands give them like 95%, maybe more of the waters.
TheGuy839@reddit
Ok maybe I dont understand but you have rights in your part of the sea and international waters. If greek islands give them more area because objectively they have more islands and presence in Aegean. Or do you mean that islands give them more area because they act as a shield?
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
That's the border dispute part. We claim equal rights in the Aegean sea. 50/50. But Greece claims almost 95% of it because of the UNCLOS agreement we didnt sign. So they are actually saying we dont even have the part you also we think we have.
For all practical purposes it's 50/50 now anyway. And Greece side claims we are threatening their sovereignty because of it.
TheGuy839@reddit
But I am confused, how can you ask for 50% where Greece has much more landmass in Aegean?
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Because we both share a coast?
TheGuy839@reddit
I am talking about surface area. Greece has much Greek waters in Aegean due to their islands. If their islands form a shield thats on geography, but you cant expect them to give you access to waters that are theirs. Turkey is free to use their or international waters they can access.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
it's not theirs to give access. their claims are based on an agreement we are not a party to. current status is 50/50.
Of all the islands on the Aegean, a few close to Turkish coast are habitable and 90 of their island population live in those few islands. That doesnt give you the whole sea sorry
TheGuy839@reddit
I mean i dont know how else to put it. It doesnt matter if their islands have people. What matters is that greece has 22km from each shore as theirs. If there is less then 44km between Turkey and Greece they split it. If their waters form a shield around aegean sea because of that 22km, that is just favourability of greek geography. If you expect greece to allow you to pass through their waters to get to something, sorry but that is unreasonable. You agreed that islands are greek, and with islands come 22km of greek waters.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
well I'm sorry to burst your bubble but that's far from reality and never will be
TheGuy839@reddit
What did I invent
Substantial-Peach-90@reddit
There is not “your” side of the Aegean, there is Greece and there is Turkey. Your side is Turkey, Greek side is Greece, there are no islands close to your side, these islands are Greece, the country that is neighboring you and you have borders with. The borders are obvious, if you want to dispute them, do something about that, I say you go first to the first line and show us the way
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Yeah yeah, here is the maximalist bullshit that has no bearings or sense in real life and you claim you are being violated lol
Nick_mgt@reddit
The only reason we are allies with Israel is because turkey is threatening us. Greece has currently no claim over Turkish land, but turkey is claiming greek islands as their own.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
No one ever claimed islands lol. We have maritime rights, which you think we dont have because of your islands. Mainland > island.
Also, you keep piling weapons ok those islands despite opposing agreements.
Nick_mgt@reddit
That agreement was with Italy not you, and Italy is fine with us doing that so cry about it. Also your country doesn't even officially recognise the maritime international law. The fact that you make distinctions between which territories are more important (island mainland) tells me all in need to know about your hypocrisy
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
I really dont need to cry about your puny military capabilities.
We were a party in Lausanne and agreed on demilitarization. Your agreement with Italy also states demilitarization. Your are breaching both. This is a fact. Today they dont enforce it tomorrow they might. What sort of diplomatic stance is that?
I will dumb it down for you
We have shore in Aegean, that gives us maritime rights. You cant deny me my rights.
There are sensibly other examples where islands do bot triumph over mainland because the world doesn’t run on bullshit ideas. You are just pushing a stupid agenda and fuel that for diplomatic backing in other international issues
puzzledpanther@reddit
You literally just cried about Greece arming the islands.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
No I merely stated you are piling weapons. That's a breach of multiple international agreements.
puzzledpanther@reddit
What do you think they're going to do with those weapons?
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Practically, nothing. It's not a threat.
But it's important in the context of ownership
They think they own 95% of the Aegean because of a clause of UNCLOS. We claim the Aegean should be split 50/50. Because of this logic any activity we have on our side of the sea is an invasion of their soverignty. This is actually what this post is about too.
So as a defensive action they arm those islands
So we are saying, why are you arming these islands, there are multiple treties banning the militarization of these islands. They are saying to the international community we keep invading their aerospace and waters. Why, see above
It's a bullshit situation
puzzledpanther@reddit
So don't attack them then and the weapons are useless?
Maybe you shouldnt have placed a large amphibian army in Izmir?
It seems several people have already explained it to you in detail but you still refuse to accept it.
You do though, constantly. They have plenty of proof. You even fly over Greek islands sometimes.
Doesn't work like that... you don't get to ignore thousands of Greek islands because it inconveniences you.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Did you even read what I wrote? We dont attack them, we use our part of the sea, which they see as offense. Are you at all literate
Several people repeated Greek interpretations to me. I say back, there has never been a clause in any agreement that says you can arm it in montroe case. And the 1947 agreement is still violated.
Those islands are on the our half of the Aegean. This doesnt make it an expansion
I dont ignore anything. Just like no one in the world can ignore the hundreds of kilometers of shore we have
puzzledpanther@reddit
How is it your part? Do you have an agreement with them?
I think I'm managing ok. Why do you think you need to ask me that?
and you are repeatingTurkish interpretations.
How do you think that will work? So they can't leave their islands without your permission?
You just think thousands of Greek islands shouldn't have access to the sea.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
As in it has always been and still is today? You cry victim because of an agreemetn we didnt sign?
Mine are facts. Facts are the agreements that clearly state they cant be militarized. But Greeks interpret our control over straits nullifies that. No one said that, no one agreed to that.
They can. They do. Today it's 50/50 anyways. There dont live problems.
I never said they can have access to sea. They do already.
puzzledpanther@reddit
lol
Lothronion@reddit
Categorically false. The demilitarization clause in the Lausanne Treaty of 1923 AD was nullified in the Montreaux Treaty of 1936 AD, and by Turkish initiative for the sake of doing so for the Straits. As for the Paris Treaty of 1947 AD regarding the Dodecanese, the demilitarization clause was imposed due to insistence by the USSR, believing that Turkey would become Pro-Soviet and part of the Warsaw Pact, which USSR no longer exists, while Turkey was not a signatory, and at the time had not militarized the opposite coasts of the Dodecanese, despite doing so in the 1970s, which nullified that demilitarization clause, by threatening a demilitarized area...
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
No one it is ever stated it’s nullified. That’s just your position on it
Lothronion@reddit
So you get to remilitarize the Straits, thus break the treaty, but we must abide it? Rules for thee but not for me.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
No, we made a more recent treaty that had different agreements than the previous treaty on a specific subject that is the straits management. It doesnt nullify all the subjects of the previous treaty. For example it doesnt bring back capitulations either
You made no new agreement in the matter of militarization. You just said oh you control the straits, i will arm the islands then. Italy didnt agree. We didnt agree. Hence the violation
Lothronion@reddit
I am not speaking of nullifying all the clauses (not "subjects", what the hell), that is whataboutism. I am speaking of nullifying a specific clause of demilitarization that was binding for both Greece and Turkey, and Turkey nullified it for itself, so why should also Greece abide to that clause any longer? And I was replying for the Montreaux Treaty of 1936 AD, as I thought that was the one you were speaking of, which refers to the North Aegean Islands, not the Dodecanese and Italy.
On the Dodecanese, the issue is simpler: you threatened a demilitarized zone, so it is now militarized, especially as that threat was never retracted, and has been there for the last half a century. If you want it to be demilitarized again, that is great, dismantle your Aegean Army. Or should you point a gun on our head and we should not do the same?
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Because straits and islands are two different topics?
Lothronion@reddit
Which islands? The North Aegean Islands and the Straits, absolutely not, they are part of the same clauses in the Lausanne Treaty, and on the same conditions. Why should Turkey break clauses and Greece be still bound by them?
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
We are not breaking clauses. We made a new agreement about the straits and you agreed to it. In no place it was stated you could militarize any islands
The Daudaconnes, you have an agreement with Italy that you wont militarize them but you are. Whether or not they oppose to it is irrelevant, you are violating it and weapons are turned to us. Not that it’s powerful to be threatening enough but that’s also besides the point. The point is your violation
Rest of the islands are to be demilitarized based on Lausanne, to which we are a party and we again oppose it
Lothronion@reddit
I am bored of writing it all over again, so just read this:
"The Convention annulled the terms of the earlier Lausanne Treaty on the Straits, including the demilitarisation of the Greek islands of Lemnos and Samothrace. Turkey recognised Greece's right to militarise them via a letter sent to the Greek Prime Minister on 6 May 1936 by the Turkish Ambassador in Athens, Ruşen Eşref. The Turkish government reiterated this position when the Turkish Minister for Foreign Affairs, Rüştu Aras, in his address to the Turkish National Assembly on the occasion of the ratification of the Montreux Treaty, recognised Greece's legal right to deploy troops on Lemnos and Samothrace with the following statement: "The provisions pertaining to the islands of Lemnos and Samothrace, which belong to our neighbour and friendly country Greece and were demilitarised in application of the 1923 Lausanne Treaty, were also abolished by the new Montreux Treaty, which gives us great pleasure"."
The what?!
Continuing to demilitarize an area that is actively threatened by a massive army that is capable of amphibious assaults is like begging to lose it. And Italy is not protesting about the issue.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Yeah you are bored cuz it’s full of shit. The montroe literally states we can militarize the straits if we want to. You agreed. Your interpretation is you can militarize two islands in the northern part. We dont agree. And even if we did, you are militarizing a lot more than two islands in the south.
Lothronion@reddit
There is no "even if", you did, as per the passage above.
And the same nullification also concerns the entire clause, so also other islands too.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
I all said we dont agree that you can interpret it is nullification of your demilitarization
You are just insufferable gosh
Nick_mgt@reddit
maritime rights
<Under international law, particularly the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS), island maritime rights do not fundamentally exceed mainland maritime rights, but they are generally treated as equal. According to Article 121(2) of UNCLOS, islands are entitled to the same maritime zones (territorial sea, contiguous zone, exclusive economic zone, and continental shelf) as other land territory.<
It seems like you are are the one making up your own bullshit rules.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
So entire Aegean is yours and we have no maritime rights even though we a hundreds of kilometers long shore? Is that what you are claiming smart boy?
Nick_mgt@reddit
Yes, exactly. We own those islands, the same you own Constantinople and Smyrna etc. Some things you win, some things you lose. Im ok with that, and you should be too. The world doesn't own you anything, nor you're entitled to the world
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Well sucks for you then. Cuz that will never be the practice. And you will keep crying
Early-Show2886@reddit
Do you Greeks make this claim against all Turks? Even against your own Muslim minority in Western Thrace? Which consists of ethnic Turks, Pomaks, and Roma? Wouldn't you prefer to deport them to Turkey?
Nick_mgt@reddit
Hahaha, I live in Xanthi, the Muslim minority here is nothing but greek Muslims, if you had ever interacted with them you would know that they consider themselves Greeks, but I suppose they don't want you to know that
Present-Ebb4615@reddit
I'm Greek, but I thought in Komotini the consulate of Turkey has done lots of propaganda. Is there much difference between Xanthi and Komotini muslims?
Early-Show2886@reddit
OMG, exactly this is it...
you are blocked. diaspora idiot.
Public_Individual823@reddit
Wow Most calm and well structure response ever
levenspiel_s@reddit
That's not true man. It's what your government needs to tell you, basing it on fringe movements, which i am sure exists in Greece, too.
And wait until you get deported from your own land by the Israelis.
The_Thighbiter@reddit
Didn't greeks get expelled from the less developed parts of Cyprus?
AST360@reddit
Turkish population went north, Greek went south.
levenspiel_s@reddit
Mate, Cyprus is whole another matter where there was an ethnic cleansing of Turkish by the Greeks. It's so recent that I am a bit disappointed this is washed away. 1st Turkish reaction was fully justified by its guarantor status, the 2nd, the invasion, probably not.
Lothronion@reddit
The paramilitary EOKA-B, consisted of around 20,000 members, absolutely does not represent the roughly 600,000 Cypriot Greeks and roughly 8 million Grecian Greeks, and roughly at the time 15 million Greeks globally. As such, equating it to "the Greeks" makes no sense at all, since a paramilitary group is by definition not part of a state's military apparatus. Of course, that is no the same regarding the ethnic cleansing of Cypriot Greeks in Northern Cyprus by the Turkish Army, which Turkish Army is dictated by the Turkish Government, which is voted by the Turkish people.
The_Thighbiter@reddit
Sure👍
MegasNikolaos@reddit
As a greek cypriot i believe the invasion was justified since there was a coup in the goverment by eoka B (not A there is a difference) however the continued occipation and expulsion of the greek cypriots in the north is not.
dancesquared@reddit
So to what country does Cyprus belong?
levenspiel_s@reddit
Cyprus??
Nick_mgt@reddit
Look mate, I have no problem with your ppl, I like you very much, but I also know that I have to survive in this jungle called the "East Med". We gotta do what we gotta do to survive. I'd much rather be allies with you rather than any country in the world, but we both know this isn't happening any time soon
Aeagen@reddit
CONSIDERING you were besties with Israel for 50 years, until Erdogan took over, maybe you should not speak. Or actually go on, express your fears publicly. It's will be your regime's turn next and you know it.
NGluck123@reddit
I ain't Turkish, but nice knee-jerk reaction.
Lonely-Sunbed-2508@reddit
I mean you’re not wrong, but multiple things can be true. Turkey has army on foreign land atm (Syria and elsewhere). Point is, I don’t trust my government, you shouldn’t trust your own. In the end, the national flag industry flourishes along the one that builds our coffins. And it’s you and me in those wooden boxes and not the ones escalating these conflicts.
NGluck123@reddit
I'm not Turkish and have no problem stating Erdogan is a piece of shit
Lonely-Sunbed-2508@reddit
Ok, so yeah. We agree on all fronts.
BabylonianWeeb@reddit
Turkey used to be major ally to Israel, Israel even helped them to capture PKK leader.
Lothronion@reddit
What Greek-Israeli alliance? Alliances are written on paper; they are international obligations for both sides. Israel has been in a state of war since October 2023, and Greece has done nothing for that, for she is not obliged to do anything about it. Just like how Israel is not obliged to help Greece should Turkey invades.
If anything, taking the mere Greek-Israeli cooperation over security in the Eastern Mediterranean, as well as the mere Greek-Israeli joint military exercises and cooperation on the development of military technology, and Greece being a customer of Israel's military industry, and elevating that to the level of an "alliance" is playing Netanyahu’s game, who indeed does say that Greece is Israel's close ally for the sake of negating the idea that Israel has become internationally isolated.
Lumpy-Tone-4653@reddit
Thats bot an aliance....we are just getting israeli technology and get to train their pikots...greece also trained libyan generals in the past,was greece pro-Gadaffi?
theboltT@reddit
lol imagine trusting French for defense of your sovereignty 😂
Userkiller3814@reddit
A generic statement to a generic question that can be interpreted a million ways, to appease everyone but satisfy noone.
DoctorNo1661@reddit
Bro will not be in office a year from now. Not sure what one would expect in terms of commitment there.
Starfalloss@reddit (OP)
Greece and France have a military alliance which includes a mutual defense clause outside of the EU, NATO and third parties, it just got renewed and updated that’s the whole point he is here.
Weird-Student-9302@reddit
So if, hypothetically, Greece was to attack Turkey, is France obliged to aid Turkey as a NATO member or does this pact override NATO?
eucalyptus-d@reddit
No clarity on what NATO would do if attack is between NATO countries. Ideally it should be NATO supports the defending party, given it is a defence alliance. Most probably they will do nothing and support preferred party of the day indirectly. This is same if Turkey attacks Greece btw.
Sakouli@reddit
What are you talking about? Greece can't attack Turkey.
carpuzz@reddit
well.. it happen before..
Dreadscythe95@reddit
Noone would support Greece attacking Turkey if it is not a defensive war. Also NATO pact does not protect members from each other, the same way it does not protect Greece against Turkey.
New_Parking9991@reddit
france would ....fight itself while greeks and turkish place bets.
Who's french side wins gets aegean.
Kouroubelo_@reddit
article 5
“The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognized by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.
such action as it deems necessary. This is the important part, none is obliged to commit troops or help militarily.
carpuzz@reddit
I am pretty sure they are looking this shit like #western alliance vs kebab alliance#
Unironically_Dave@reddit
What don't you understand about "defense clause"?
SE_prof@reddit
The meeting took place at Delphi. Make what you want of this...
PackComprehensive226@reddit
Yeah that's macron. That's why is popularity in France is so low
QuarianGuy@reddit
It's nothing burger because there won't be any war for verbal agreements to be honored.
The spiciest things get here are Greek Coast Guard ramming Turkish Fishing boats and Turkish Air Force invading Greek Airspace.
Sakouli@reddit
It’s not ‘nothing.’ There are repeated airspace violations and maritime incidents..Greece considers these clear violations, including fishing vessels entering its waters..over and over again.. Migration has also been used by Turkey as pressure in the past. At the same time, Turkey often invokes international law when it suits its position, but rejects key frameworks like United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea when it doesn’t. There are also contradictions with long-standing agreements like Treaty of Lausanne, especially when newer doctrines like the ‘Blue Homeland’ are used to justify expanded claims.
QuarianGuy@reddit
Claims made by politicians to get their approval rates up and incidents that can be easily fixed with diplomacy.
Nobody is going to delete Athens or Ankara off the map over these issues.
BranchNational4959@reddit
As a Greek i agree. The only thing i don't get is why Erdi is still supported by the majority after all the purges this last decade. If Turks are as nationalistic as we all think they are, wouldn't they want to defend their compatriots from imprisonment and murder?
Famous_Pause7150@reddit
30% that’s how much support he got for over a decade now. I attribute that number to people below 90 IQ and those who benefits from his rule. So we can safely say his hostility towards our neighbors is to satisfy his crowd, there is no public support to any of his threats. People are already suffering under economic burdens and have no intention to get involved in a conflict.
The only way for this attitude to change is a direct attack on Turkish soil, and I highly doubt that’s coming anytime soon. However you cannot trust Israel on this, damn warmongers do attack unprovoked. It also feeds erdogans hand, Turks do hate Israel, like everyone else who is not a genocidal maniac. As long as Greece is in bed with Israel I wouldn’t discard a war scenario.
name---@reddit
The last time an election happened they were stealing votes from people who died in a recent Earthquake, even if majority doesn’t support him he’ll still win elections.
This all happened because the country is half made up of apes who can do little more than suck the dick of their local imam. Even if they don’t support Erdoğan, they still won’t vote for the major opposition party.
Proof_Counter_8271@reddit
oh its mostly because most of the older people and certain people think everything on the internet is a lie and instead believes in tall man owned media on the tv,giving the tall man quite a lot of propaganda strength,that propaganda and the stubbornnes of older turkish people that cant fathom the idea of being wrong,you get tall man winning elections(most likely rigging it too)
QuarianGuy@reddit
In reality the majority no longer favors the Tall Man, however there are still a disturbingly high number of people who do, yes.
I'd hardly call them nationalists though, they are more like a cult of personality who mixed aspects of Islam but replaced their God and Prophet with him.
Their enemies change on a dime, whatever the news tells them to hate that week is hated like it's a mandated trend. I wouldn't read too hard into it, although I can see how they would still be bothersome. The reason why we all come off that way is because almost all major new outlets are indirectly owned or play by the rules of the Tall Man. So any other voice is snuffed out.
In reality most favor peace. None of the rhetoric about sea borders or what have you got any widespread support for military action. Common consensus is towards diplomacy and trade deals to be exhausted first.
Redararis@reddit
that the French defense industry is pleased with Greece’s shopping choices.
House_of_House@reddit
Ye man greek sperm strong sperm, your sovereignty is just around the corner if you buy this weapon package "New, Improved, Deluxe Special edition, Limited time only, High-quality, Premium Exclusive, turk deleter 9000" that is in sale for this weekend
Serious_Lemon_7884@reddit
Why did ai read this in Jamaican accent?
drtrtr@reddit
in balkans, kebab remover is the weapon of choice
o6u2h4n@reddit
Removed kebab by eating it.
CataphractBunny@reddit
Now I want one as well.
ZelezopecnikovKoren@reddit
turk deleter lmao
Beautiful-Dish-6275@reddit
Im still mad we bought the French rafales, we should all just team up and make our own jet fighters.
FirstIdChoiceWasPaul@reddit
With blackjack and hookers!
fonia5000@reddit
We don’t have the resources nor the tech know how sadly..
Ok-Chef1896@reddit
If all the Slavs united and pooled their resources and knowledge together they could have that..
We could call the country Southslavia or something like that hmmmm
ValuableAd886@reddit
ok...
Why southslavia if it's all the slavs? Nah, you take ALL the slavs (including the dickhead russians) and call it Slavonia. It is sure to be even better than Yugoslavia, just think of all the warcrimes :D
Ok-Chef1896@reddit
For Slavonia to happen we first need to establish a country where all the Slav nationalities are mixed up so we can have a massive free-for-all when the inevitable civil war happens!
SE_prof@reddit
Let him dream...
Beautiful-Dish-6275@reddit
Yep
AFKE0@reddit
Novi Avion 2: Electric Boogaloo
Own-Consideration631@reddit
Like eurocream, eurpfighter
atzitzi@reddit
True Dat plus we have common interests let's say, as all European countries should. Still, being heavily armed is sonething we owe to Turkey.
East-Reading-1305@reddit
I find it interesting that after the Israelis publicly stated that Türkiye is their next target now everyone in the west is against them. Even Von der Leyen recently put Turkiye in the same group with Russia and China as a danger foe Europe. Turkey helped Europe a lot with the syrian refugees, is an important NATO member and is a big economical partener to many states in the EU. I guess someone should remind EU leaders of these things.
buy_chocolate_bars@reddit
r/thingsthatdidnthappen
East-Reading-1305@reddit
“Turkey is the new Iran,” said former Israeli Prime Minister Naftali Bennett during a conference in Jerusalem for heads of major American-Jewish organizations
You can see it for yourself
"Turkey is the new Iran"
buy_chocolate_bars@reddit
You should see what former officials say in Turkey.
Alozy11@reddit
Well, politicians (especially the ones who wants to reelected) say all kinda things to stay relevant. Not saying it’s true/false just one former prime minister’s claim not a huge thing imo.
You can call me naive maybe but I kinda believe that Erdo and Bibi are buddies behind the doors b/c the tension works for both of them to feed internal consumption like ‘war is coming, we are strong, other parties are dumb, you should reelect me’ etc.
At the end of the day, money talks, bullshit walks and Erdo’s inner circle making bunch of money by trading with Israel.
PlentyShare6905@reddit
The west was never turkeys friend because it’s a Muslim nation. And they will always do Israel’s bidding.
If Israel attacks turkey and turkey retaliates and asks NATO for help, NATO countries (chiefly US) will kick turkey out and help Israel.
jays_tates@reddit
Wasn’t it France that convinced Greece to join the eurozone lol
Leonniarr@reddit
It's the political word salad of saying yes but without the accountability that comes with it and at the same time saying no but without the backlash that comes with it.
So essentially this guy just said: Lorem Ipsum dolor sit amet
name---@reddit
If you genuinely believe a war between Greece and Turkey is likely in the current geopolitical environment please get your head checked for a concussion.
SuperbNose1145@reddit
First a question: would macaroni answer the same for a Turkish reporter? But seriously, I think this means NATO in the current form is unfortunately over.
name---@reddit
Probably would. He definitely doesn’t think a war is likely as Greek and Turkish politicians always do this whenever election season nears.
lotzik@reddit
I think that during the Greek - Ottoman war in \~1920, the French were allies and they switched sides, right?
name---@reddit
The French quietly withdrew but left a lot of their supplies for the Turkish forces. So pretty much yeah.
I can’t remember why at the moment, some disagreement with the brits.
TatarAmerican@reddit
France's recent track record is not good at all, total humiliation all across Saharan Africa. They also tried to play some role in Armenians' defense, but the NK conflict is over in favor of Azerbaijan.
If I were advising the Greeks I'd lean even heavier into a military alliance with Israel, IDF gets the job done.
name---@reddit
Leaning towards Israel for a country with an EU centric economy is not very wise. The EU as a whole are drifting away from Israel.
WelpImTrapped@reddit
Lol. Lmfao even.
TatarAmerican@reddit
Where are you trapped? I'll help you out
PckMan@reddit
It's a dumb question. Greece's sovereignty is not threatened but a lot of people would have you believe we're always on the brink of invasion. We're not. Relax.
He gave the most neutral answer possible. "Would you love me if I was a worm" ahh question
name---@reddit
Election season is next year, right? They are trying to beg for votes with this bullshit again.
Give us a year and we’ll be at it too.
HYBRIDLqTHEORY@reddit
thats actually really good for greece.
I3and20CharactersI@reddit
Let’s say a conflict breaks out between Turkey and Greece.
Macron: This isn’t our war.
o6u2h4n@reddit
This is there truth.
BranchNational4959@reddit
He said "We will be HERE" not THERE. That pretty much sums it up to : "We will protest and criticize the threats through our social media"
alezio000@reddit
Civilians are getting bombed in Lebanon and France is watching. I don't trust this guy
SOHONEYSAME@reddit
(France doesn't have a mutual defence deal w/ Lebanon).
alezio000@reddit
But they have an army over there. An army that's supposed to protect the people of Lebanon
abki12c@reddit
France isn't protecting Hezbolah
alezio000@reddit
civilians = Hezbollah? ok buddy
Final-Nebula-7049@reddit
France, England, and Greece has a long lineage of success in Aegean. I'm sure they would welcome a refresher.
abki12c@reddit
Indeed they had great success and they will again
gibigibi34@reddit
I think we have more feral threats atm
abki12c@reddit
More like a Turkey
throwraislander@reddit
Who is threating you? The Kurds are decimated.
Smooth-Inspector-391@reddit
True, elections are not here yet
Cultural-Home-4201@reddit
Cultural-Home-4201@reddit
venusinfurstattoo@reddit
Two faced bigot Milf fetish dum dum
turkoman_@reddit
They will.
Ask Armenians about Karabakh.
blumonste@reddit
You mean he will declare war on Turkey? 🤣
Such a scam artist.
atzitzi@reddit
No, Greece isn't threatening Turkey. We like our peace ✌️. It is Turkey that threatens Greece every now and then. Also, do you find it amusing that someone will declare a war on you? Or you think you are untouchable?
blumonste@reddit
I find the French clown funny. Yes. You don't? Such a slimy personality.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Turkey would still win.
Lothronion@reddit
Well I was recently reading a Turkish officer's statement in a Turkish article (via Google Translate) that he was saying that the Greco-French alliance entailed the use of nuclear force as well. And recently France made statements of that aspect as well. Not sure how Turkey is planning to deal with that, as far as I know the Golden Dome that Donald Trump plans for USA has not been implemented in Turkey.
Excellent-Beach-4815@reddit
France will use nuclear weapons on Turkey to protect Greece? hahhahahahah
Lothronion@reddit
Tell that to Macron, that is what he basically said.
Outrageous_Break_739@reddit
using nuclear weapons for some dumbass islands is like uncles fighting over the property rights of some ridiculous 4 m² hut
Lothronion@reddit
Said islands house about half a million Greeks...
Outrageous_Break_739@reddit
starting nuclear warfare for half a million people is israeli in nature too lmao are you serious? they didn't start nuclear war for millions of ukrainians nor millions of palestinians. why should they for half a million greeks? do you think greek people's lives matter more or sth
Lothronion@reddit
For all your "lmaos", you should have read that I am not talking about nuclear war in the comments above, but merely a warning shot, as per the French nuclear dogma.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Turkey does not have nuclear weapons. It would be a suicide for French hegemony to do so. Thag would legitimiate Turkey to invite Pakistan in the mayhem, and i doubt the world would drift into ww3 over some islands. But it is funny to read this even as a scenario.
Lothronion@reddit
It would be very bad for France to drop nuclear weapons on Turkish cities, but Pakistan has nothing to do with that, especially given how far away France is from it. It mostly relates to the Nuclear Taboo, and how that will just turn the rest of NATO against France. Though France also has their crazy nuclear warning shot, which in a Greco-Turkish War might entail just dropping a single nuclear warhead in the open sea in front of the Dardanelles Strait (or even further West, inside Greek territorial waters, after Greek approval, as that would send the message), which would not break the Nuclear Taboo as there would be no direct deaths whatsoever.
Ujemegaz@reddit
You must be smoking thinking that France would even consider dropping a nuke anywhere in mediterranean. I see why Turks feel threatened though. Guess they are in a defensive position for once.
Lothronion@reddit
You mean they feel threatened by our reaction against their threats to bomb Athens and invade Greece?
Ujemegaz@reddit
You must be really offrails thinking that Turkey will ever bomb athens. Maybe they could take over some unhabitated islands, but if you really think that Turkey will bomb Athens, you really need to come out of the shell.
Lothronion@reddit
Back in 2022 Turkey tested their Taifun missile, with a range that could go from Izmir to Athens, and the immediate statement of the Turkish President Erdogan was about how Turkey will bomb Athens if Greece is not careful. At the same year, Turkey did about 11,000 illegal overflights, whose purpose was not to intimidate by volume, but rather scramble Greece's ability to detect incoming rockets, so this is not just a case of politicians talking tough.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Ok buddy. Turkey bad. Greece good 👍
nanithefucketh@reddit
Lmao you have no idea how to refute what they said so you're just mocking
Ujemegaz@reddit
I did not even read it, tbh.
nanithefucketh@reddit
Yeah mate 2 sentences are very hard to read might have to ask chatgpt to tldr them for you
Lothronion@reddit
Not what I said. And I do not adhere to that asinine type of thinking you want to impose on me here for the sake of striking points.
Party_Banana_52@reddit
I mean, are you gonna nuke a NATO member while being in NATO?
Lothronion@reddit
This is about a scenario where a NATO member has invaded a NATO member.
Weird-Student-9302@reddit
Lmao get this delusional kid out of reddit.
Do you even know what nuke actually is? What its made of? Its after effects? The destruction it brings to the ones who use them and the ones that get used on?
Its not a videogame, reduce your screentime.
Rocketronic0@reddit
If US is not using nukes on Iran, French will not either
Lothronion@reddit
France's nuclear dogma is way more unhinged.
Starfalloss@reddit (OP)
LMAO
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Dude you have been nothing but an weapons buyer for them. You dont even have control over it, they want you to buy new stuff and donate your existing stuff etc. you got no leverage anywhere. You push maximalist bullshit and cry when you cant achieve it.
But keep laughing.
Starfalloss@reddit (OP)
Sure must hurt that Greece has powerful allies.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Pakistan shot down Rafales.
Starfalloss@reddit (OP)
Yeah in a battle with India what’s that got to do with Greece? Imagine wanting Pakistan to be your ally…
Ujemegaz@reddit
Is Greece stronger than India 🤣
Starfalloss@reddit (OP)
No but it’s 1 billion times stronger than Albania :)
Ujemegaz@reddit
Direct_Promotion2625@reddit
Lol still bitter than israel bro
Ujemegaz@reddit
I doubt they even know how to operate french toys.
Starfalloss@reddit (OP)
Ok you guys are delusional.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Dazzling-Ad3783@reddit
greece can conquer albania in 30 minutes or less
gounatos@reddit
Please no
Ujemegaz@reddit
Ujemegaz@reddit
If you can pass the Kakavije. Greek check points are always on strike there.
Volaer@reddit
Lol.
Ujemegaz@reddit
History repeats from time to time. To be fair game, Greexe should get support from Britain and Italy as well. Only France by their side is a sure loss.
Dazzling-Ad3783@reddit
ok gipsy albanian…
TheCharalampos@reddit
That they enjoy the money we pay for stuff.
PasicT@reddit
It's smart, it's not up to France (or anyone other country) to defend Greece's sovereignty.
SOHONEYSAME@reddit
cope.
PasicT@reddit
Cope?? About what?
WalkerBuldog@reddit
As Ukrainian, I expect them to be with you as much as French army are currently fighting with us against russia
SOHONEYSAME@reddit
Ukraine,
is NOT a EU member
is NOT a Nato member
doesn't have a mutual defence agreement w/ France.
agree to Russia's terms, & peace.
WalkerBuldog@reddit
I guess those a good reason for us not to be protected from fascist russia that commits largest genocide and ethnic cleansing since WW2. Thank you, I didn't realise that.
basedrw@reddit
Are you in the EU or something? NATO? Do we owe you something I did not know?
WalkerBuldog@reddit
My bad, of course we are inferior people who are clearly worse than you are and it's fine for us to be genocided on the fact that we aren't part of EU or NATO.
basedrw@reddit
You are not inferior, and I hate Russia for what they did on your country, nobody has the right to invade someone just because they want. We supported you though via other routes and you should be grateful but I would not go die and fight for someone I am not even culturaly related or an alliance of mine. As Greek I would fight for EU because they are my allies and we are also culturally the same, i.e., descendands of what used to be Roman/Byzantine empire etc.
WalkerBuldog@reddit
You in your own massage literally said that we are inferior and don't deserve protection from genocide and ethnic cleansing because we aren't in EU or NATO. We deserved protection from russia as much as Eatonians, Poles Lavtvians and Lithuanians or any other European country.
Russia commits largest genocide and ethnic cleansing on occupied terrories since WW2 and you and US alllowed it to happen twice and twice you have done nothing to stop it. And they will continue to torture, execute, rape, kidnapp and simply kill our people in thousands for ten more years.
WalkerBuldog@reddit
If we are not inferior we can sign a defensive agreement with European countries, including Greece this year and than we will be officially allies. Would you support it?
throwraislander@reddit
Of course it's not fine.
You can't expect though for France to fight Russia to protect a non Allied country directly.
Claiming that they didn't help you is just unfair and ungrateful. Whole Europe has been consistently supporting your country with every other way apart from sending their own soldiers.
WalkerBuldog@reddit
We can sign a defensive alliance with France. France could have provided a security guarantee for Ukraine. Us not being part of EU or NATO is not a problem.
As I said, it's completely normal and fine to allow a fascist genocidal country to invade and exterminate entire Eastern European country as concept with 40mln population, erase entire Ukrainian culture on the occupied terrories and commit largest scale ethnic cleansing since WW2.
France has constantly undermined European efforts to arms Ukraine and purchase ammunition to Ukraine outaide of Europe. France contributes nothing to Czech initiative which as today doesn't have enough money to purchase ammunition.
In the first three years of the war annual military aid to Ukraine from France was less than 0,1% of French GDP. Not 10%. Not 1%. 0,1%. I am not saying France didn't help and that I am not grateful. I am grateful and they do help. It's q matter of fact.
It's more complicated. Some countries genually want to help, for others it's irrelevant and performative actions without putting any real effort. I can give you countless examples that prove that.
AugustNetherius@reddit
French are fighting for Ukrainians ? i didnt know that
Yavannia@reddit
I think that was the joke.
WalkerBuldog@reddit
Sarcasm
Unfair-Frame9096@reddit
Macron is thinking "Ruzzia" and Mitsotakis is talking "Turkey"...
zautopilot@reddit
just like they helped Armenia. very assuring.
Willing-Actuator-509@reddit
The title is misleading. Macron is very clear NOT only with words but with Rafalles and Bellharas and Mitsotakis is also clear with a generous budget on weapons and political side that cannot be misunderstood.
He was Biden's guest in their parliament, Trump's guest, Macron's guest.
So please rephrase your title with a less misleading one. Something like Greece is ally of USA and France.
Sensitive_Candy_9063@reddit
The US isn't allied to anyone!
Willing-Actuator-509@reddit
Who says so? Not Trump though.
Sensitive_Candy_9063@reddit
Trimp alienates every allies the US has.
Willing-Actuator-509@reddit
Even Israel?
Sensitive_Candy_9063@reddit
Move on an read the whole thread
Willing-Actuator-509@reddit
No. You are wrong.
Low_Gold9754@reddit
Israel would object to that statement.
Sensitive_Candy_9063@reddit
That is only a marriage of convince
Low_Gold9754@reddit
Well, that could be used as a synonym for alliances. With how much money America has invested in Israel and the power the Israeli lobby has in USA, I don't see a divorce coming anytime soon.
Sensitive_Candy_9063@reddit
Ofcourse not
Rare-Doughnut-956@reddit
macron is gay
SOHONEYSAME@reddit
Macron is based.
CorvidaeOccitanicus@reddit
Once again Greece and Turkey roleplaying at not being the same country for 700 years straight
0a_boy0@reddit
Greek politicians trying to keep tension high by “having an enemy” not to loose election with that shitty economy which still gets terrible every single day even with eu funds.
0a_boy0@reddit
Greeks are so scared that they seek for help bruh🤣😜
ImamTrump@reddit
The same French that can’t do shit to protect Lebanon. Ok buddy.
When will you grasp that the euro leaders are tv personalities.
The answer to everything Europe will do is ABSOLULETLY NOTHING
grkmmkrg@reddit
The last time France said it backed Greece, we all know how that played out :) Besides, isn’t it ironic to expect another country to safeguard your sovereignty?
puzzledpanther@reddit
The fuck do you expect a country eight times smaller to do against an aggressive neighbour other than arm themsevels to the teeth and form alliances?
grkmmkrg@reddit
Your eight times smaller, manipulative media wants you to believe that there is an “aggressive neighbor” next to you. Keep believing them—and keep believing that some other country will protect your sovereignty. And keep failing to learn from history.
puzzledpanther@reddit
Yeah the fact that Turkey is one of the most nationalistic countries in the world, has more than a hundred bases outside it's border, occupies part of Cyprus, has attacked it's neighbours and has a president that has repeatedly threatened Greece, is all the fault of "manipulative media".
We don't have much choice. Turkey is much larger.
You think just because something happened at one time in history, that's all that's going to happen in the future?
AchillesDev@reddit
Not really, that's how alliances work
satoran94@reddit
idk what is wrong with Greek people's heads. we Turks have 99 problems but Greece ain't one. I guess politicians have to create abstract dangers to keep them in power, just like here.
Low_Gold9754@reddit
Can you name some abstract dangers that are presented over there?
caspaz1561@reddit
Yeah they will help the way that they helped Poland during WWII. They just sell weapons with that statement Greece XD
MindlessScarcity3641@reddit
anything but helping lebanon -french gov probably
Early-Show2886@reddit
do you turks from turkey like the greeks?
thatMrGecko@reddit
turks and greeks love each other except for the state-worshipping ultranationalist fascist idiots on both sides
anyone who says otherwise either belong to the aforementioned group of idiots or a foreigner (diaspora counts as foreigner)
Early-Show2886@reddit
I'm sorry, but I don't know any Greeks, not even my ancestors. We're among ourselves—Turks, Tatars, Romanians in Dobruja, and so on. I don't know what they're like. The Greeks I met in Germany were very arrogant towards Turks. They always thought they were superior.
Substantial-Peach-90@reddit
I’ll tell you the truth as a Greek that has met tons of Turks with every possible ideology that a Turk can have. Greeks and Turks have very different, opposing national identities as people. We are historical enemies and we still remain that. About 100 years ago the population exchange happened, in the 50s you have the pogroms against the Greeks in Istanbul, in the 70s you have the split of Cyprus, in the 80s another crisis, in the 90s another crisis, and all the way until now many disputes. It’s not like as nations we had a war few hundreds years ago and that was it, for centuries we have consistently had problems and tensions that haven’t stopped to this day.
That being said, the rivalry between the Greek and Turkish population is not personal but as I mentioned, we do have opposing identities stemming from history and that’s the reality. I can easily chill and make friends eventually with a Turk, but if we talk about political and cultural relations there will be conflict. My reality and the reality of a Turk is not going to align ever and it’s not something personal.
Now, there is lots of diversity of opinions in both the Greek and Turkish societies about if we like each other. I will say though that overall, Turks might feel closer to Greeks than Greeks to Turks and there are different reasons for that. If you want we can talk about that too.
Early-Show2886@reddit
I understand you, but that doesn't apply to all Turks.
I mean, my Turkish ancestors never had contact with Greeks.
They lived in isolation on the island of Ada Kaleh, and later in Dobruja in Romania.
They had contact with Serbs, Hungarians, Swabians (Germans), and Romanians. But we don't know this kind of hatred.
Many Balkan Turks who never lived alongside Greeks and Armenians know nothing about the things you're describing.
Substantial-Peach-90@reddit
I’m not talking about personal hatred. I’m talking about national identity and what comes with it. It’s about how people define themselves and what bundle of elements they share together. Within that bundle a shared historical narrative and a collective memory comes. In few words, a shared agreement on what that history means to you. Regarding the Greeks and Turks, these historical narratives are oppositions that don’t align, and they are a core of their national identities.
Early-Show2886@reddit
National Identity, a very good point.
Look this is my Paternal side:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Roma
and this is my mother side:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube_Swabians
but i allways see me as turkish-german mixed person
thatMrGecko@reddit
as I said, diaspora counts are foreigner
Early-Show2886@reddit
Well, I also spoke with many Turks from western Thrace-Greece who live in germany, and lost their greek citizenchip, and they were not happy with how they were treated.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation_of_Western_Thrace_Turks_in_Europe
Lumpy-Tone-4653@reddit
As people we love each other, as politics we ve been at each others throat for decades
Early-Show2886@reddit
Sure, but I don't even know what Turkish Turks think of Balkan Turks.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Outrageous_Break_739@reddit
mfs acting like this is about some stupid islands with nothing to offer and not israel declaring turkey an enemy and europe immediately becoming hostile towards turkey as well. ok bro keep dying for the great nation of israel like dogs. idiots. shove those islands up your ass too i hope they sink due to climate change
Jose_Caveirinha_2001@reddit
Does someone really believe that?
mahmutmuratdemir@reddit
The french aircraft carrier was on its way to greece when turkish drones blinded its radar and communication systems and their skipper crying like a little girl backing up to France for repairs dont forget 2. World war it took 6 weeks to surrender to Germans if greeks trust these people and their war toys they are already in trouble
No2Hypocrites@reddit
I think it's a pretty political statement. Nothing special
No-Statistician-3829@reddit
New ukraine wanted
Impressive_Youth_331@reddit
History is repeating itself
Mucklord1453@reddit
Love it. It reminds me of history when the Franks come as Crusaders to help the East Romans beat back the Turks and ensure peace.
Exact_Layer_4361@reddit
French have a generational guilt from 1204 and would help to take back Constantinople
Laluci@reddit
How to answer a question without answering it. It's the first lesson they learn in politician school.
SaraJuno@reddit
This is some “would you love me if I was a worm” vibes
Mac62961@reddit
He will condemn it.
xxprokoyucu@reddit
If Greek sovereignty is threatened in the Aegean Turkey will be there too protect her ally btw
Starfalloss@reddit (OP)
The only country treating Greek sovereignty is Turkey so that doesn’t even make sense bruh.
Academic_Zucchini221@reddit
Turkey also has bigger problems than dealing with Greece. You're stuck in some things. If you continue to see yourself as a very important threat, your government will continue to sink into debt even more.
Academic_Zucchini221@reddit
Not in a very distant time, but in the First World War, you tried to invade Turkish territory because of the promises of other countries. Remember which of us is an invader. You never learn from history. You have always been seen as a market, you are always the tong. And the hand of the one who holds the tong will burn.
DriveByAtanCivciv@reddit
No matter what ı wouldn't trust the French why die for Danzig afterall
Thin-Eagle-4334@reddit
vincesword@reddit
let's be clear: Macron will end his term in less than a year, he basically talk without any responsabilities.
Starfalloss@reddit (OP)
Greece and France have a military mutual defense clause outside of the EU and NATO and third parties, that just got renewed and updated that’s the whole point he is here.
zara_anwar@reddit
As a prolific hater of Turkey I must say, Greek eez is absurd
Lumpy-Tone-4653@reddit
It literally follows the islands the country owns...lile sure there might be stretches the more soutgeast you go but absurd is not a word i would desrcibe it.Turkey extending their maritime rights to CRETE...well THATS absurd
zara_anwar@reddit
Meme related 😭😭😭 Also Greece and Albania are literally fighting with each other for 20 years now over 16 miles of water because Greece claims a ROCK I kidd you not a ROCK standing 30 cm above water north of Korfu as an ISLAND, I love the Balkans so much on god
AchillesDev@reddit
Japan and China have entered the chat
Lumpy-Tone-4653@reddit
We have already put our stupid dispute in the UN court bullshit, so they just draw a straight line like they did with slovenia and croatia.Also yes i do agree...some claims are more stretched...but not the agean...with actual islamds with actual populayion ,land size and history.
Of course not all seatteritores and maritime zones have to connect with each other like it isbe in the meme above.
The balkans are both ripe for geniune conflict but also geniune stupidity to grow, so we cant escape them yet.I kid you not we went to war with bulgaria 90 years ago over a fucking dog.
zara_anwar@reddit
"a war over a dog" yea at this point we're goated, Balkans should be declared a continent of their own.
Also yes those islands west of Turkey are inhabitated and share a long history with Greece, you guys have every right for your claims there
JimClarkKentHovind@reddit
in what way is it absurd?
Prod_Meteor@reddit
Bullshit.
WinterIntention9423@reddit
France is more likely to threaten Greece's sovereignty than Turkey. When you first read you will think I am crazy, but the more you think about it...
magnificent_wts@reddit
Fuck off guy
zara_anwar@reddit
Bahahahahaha
Shqiptar89@reddit
Go Turkey 🇹🇷
East-Reading-1305@reddit
I find it interesting that after the Israelis publicly stated that Türkiye is their next target now everyone in the west is against them. Even Von der Leyen recently put Turkiye in the same group with Russia and China as a danger foe Europe. Turkey helped Europe a lot with the syrian refugees, is an important NATO member and is a big economical partener to many states in the EU. I guess someone should remind EU leaders of these things.
Born-Till-1738@reddit
I mean that's a very fair response but I'm surprised a diplomat says that lol
weltvonalex@reddit
I think this
https://youtu.be/YESS6emUrAk?is=Z_oum5sOpABoXZ5j
We must stick together