Mid Drive or Hub?
Posted by EffectiveFar9176@reddit | ebikes | View on Reddit | 61 comments
I have a question. Next month I plan on buying an ebike. I already know what brand and model I want but I’m having a heck of a time deciding if I want the hub motor model or if I want to pay$500 more for their mid drive motor. Hub is 750W with 75Nm. Mid is 500W with 100Nm. I weigh a little over 300 pounds and I plan on using the bike to help me get back in shape and using it to get all around my city that has lots of inclines. Most are relatively gentle. The only real flat area is along north and south along the river, then it’s a steady climb to the base of the mountains. The opposite way west is a steady climb up to a mesa. Opinions? Would it be worth the extra $500 for the mid drive with 25 more Nm of torque since unless I’m riding along the river valley it’s pretty much a given I’ll encounter inclines. Is a 750W hub motor bike with 75Nm good enough for most city streets and paved bike trails? What are peoples preferences? Hub motor or mid drive? Advantages or disadvantages to both?
I appreciate any opinions or advice you might have. Thank you.
Prestigious-Growth-5@reddit
I work delivery and in this case the go-to is obviously the hub motor for reliability. I also have a cadence sensor because I don't care about workouts and just want it to drive me places. 1000 Watts and it conquers the craziest hills. If you like working on your bike I can see mid drive being a good buy, but I like my bike to just work always
wturber@reddit
Yep. People frequently misunderstand how much torque a hub motor can have. Hub motor systems can be far more versatile than many people realise. And if your hub is direct drive, you can also reduce wear and tear on brakes by using a regen.
Prestigious-Growth-5@reddit
direct drive= no freewheel for the motor. Sketchy in anything but an escooter
wturber@reddit
Sketchy how? I have about 15,000 miles on a direct drive hub motor ebike.
Prestigious-Growth-5@reddit
okay so whats it like? do you think its worth to trade freewheel energy retention for regen? genuinely want to understand
wturber@reddit
I'll go ahead and answer your question while I continue to wait for you to answer mine.
The freewheel energy you are concerned with is generally insignificant in the grand scheme of things when riding an ebike. It is true that the most efficient way to use the energy stored in a moving bicycle is to simply coast. This is more efficient than regen for sure. But the reality of real world cycling is that we seldom get the chance to just coast to a stop without applying the brakes. We usually end up wasting some of our accumulated kinetic energy to heat by using our brakes. This is especially true in urban cycling and happens even more in urban cycling with hills.
A further reality is that for most ebike use cases, searching for optimal or near optimal energy use isn't particularly important. The main value of regen for an ebike is reduced brake wear and maintenance - especially with heavier ebikes that tend to wear through brakes fairly rapidly. The 5-15% battery savings is usually not particularly important.
This is why I wondered about your use of "sketchy" to describe a direct drive hub motor. Direct drive hub motors with regen aren't sketchy at all. They are robust, reliable and durable. That's why I used a direct drive motor in my first ebike. I was going to use the bike to commute to work and it was pretty clear that a direct drive hub motor would be the most reliable system to use. A direct drive hub is pretty much the opposite of "sketchy."
Prestigious-Growth-5@reddit
I deliver pizza in an area where after one stroke of pedals I can get back to the pizzeria from some addresses just coasting
wturber@reddit
Which means you have a constant uphill getting to those addresses. I agree that in the situation you are in, mid drive or a geared hub may be the better choice. But that doesn't make direct drive hub motors sketchy. It just means that they aren't optimal for your situation.
wturber@reddit
I asked first, you are supposed to explain to me what you meant by "sketchy."
Prestigious-Growth-5@reddit
sketchy for me is the vehicle basically braking immediately after i release the throttle. like I understand the engineering of it, how the motor doesn't have a transmission.
But its not what I expect from a bike. A bike for me is something that keeps going.
Its also very important that direct drive gives you shitty low speed power and good high speed power. Which is exactly the opposite of what I want. Why would you go fast on a fucking bicycle made out of bike parts? Extra torque however is always welcome in case of geared hub or mid drive
wturber@reddit
You mean like every Tesla car? But hey, that's fine if you don't like that method of regen. But there are many more way that regen can be implemented. Heck, Grin even has a setup where they will simulate freewheeling on direct drive hubs with a trickle of power to negate the hub motor "cogging" drag.
Why go fast? Define fast. the 20-25 mph I go is perfectly fine for bike parts. That my typical speed on my ebikes. I spend far more time at speed and than starting from a stop. And I want that 20+ mph speed. That's the main attraction of an ebike for me. It makes the bike more practical as a car replacement. The other attraction is that I can do those speeds with moderate effort. These are both things that a direct drive hub motor is great at.
unseenmover@reddit
500w/100nm mid drive. Even if it might wear more b/c of your size its pretty cheap to replace parts since they are common to analog bikes as well as ebikes.
Few-Helicopter-2943@reddit
It depends. I have three different ebikes, for different uses. My mountain bike is mid, like most higher end ebikes. There's no way I'd want a hub eMTB. My cargo bike is hub, and that's a good choice for it. It would be ok as a mid, but there's a potentially big downside - my third bike is a mid fat tire, and here is where I run into an issue - the drivetrain is on the cheaper side, it's a Shimano Altus 9 speed. Since I mostly ride it on the road, I tend to be in the highest gear most of the time, and that 9th gear 11T cog wears out FAST. I ended up ordering a bunch of them through one of the Chinese apps for a buck apiece, they last about as long as the ones from Amazon that run 15 bucks. I don't have this issue with the mtb for two reasons, first, the mid fat tire is more powerful, something like 160nm vs 85nm on the mtb, and second, the mtb drivetrain is much higher quality, and it really matters. With a hub motor, it's not putting any wear on the drivetrain, it's just you pedaling. With a mid, it's you PLUS the motor, and you can snap a chain that way pretty easily. I have to think of the fat tire as like driving a big truck; use the gears all the way up, and don't accelerate too much in the top gear. That's for crusing once you've accelerated up to speed.
You definitely want a torque sensor, as someone else said, regardless of hub or mid. There are some bikes that are switchable between torque and cadence, but torque is far superior.
ThatPeachGuy9@reddit
^ this guy said it right. I have a mid drive Emtb. It’s great for off road. We also have an adventon cargo bike that has a hub motor that is switchable from torque to cadence sensor. The hub motor is nicer for road cruising.
Few-Helicopter-2943@reddit
I didn't realize that any of the Aventon bikes were switchable, I have the original generation Abound. 4K miles on it, it's been great. Hauled 200 lbs of salt home on it today.
ThatPeachGuy9@reddit
The dad mobile.. biggest regret In life was not getting the abound sooner. I’ve got a 3rd kid (3 under 3) coming. I need to figure out how to fit a 3rd kid on it. The kids love it. This is my 3pm nap machine. Load the kids up and cruise for 2 hours.
But in regards to hub vs mid. I wouldn’t buy a mid drive for a commuter/ city bike. Last weekend I did 17 miles and 1700 feet of elevation. I live in rural Pennsylvania where there is no such thing as flat. It truly is up hill both ways everywhere you go. I maintained an average heart rate of 135 bpm for an hour strait. That’s better than sitting in a car or on a couch.
Few-Helicopter-2943@reddit
My youngest is in college, I'm waiting for grandkids to haul around :)
LexLex07@reddit
Pros of mid drive:
Stealth look
Good torque
Reliable
Waterproof\dustproof
Weight distribution
You can change\service your back wheel easily
You can have insanely good assistance even on ultra steep climbs
Pros of hub drive:
Price tag
You can fix it cheap, at home
You can upgrade your power just upgrading your wheel, or switch between them sometimes
Reliable too, bent rim won't affect your top speed
Broken\slipping chain won't let you to be stranded
You can drift during winter
You can pedal to reduce motor load and preserve your charge (PAS mode)
Can be stealthy too (250W-350W)
wturber@reddit
Mid drive is not generally more reliable.
Hub can be more stealthy than mid drive or far less stealthy.
Hub motor allows for regen.
Generally less maintenance with hub motors.
You can pedal to reduce motor load with both mid drive and hub motor.
Shiney_Metal_Ass@reddit
Extremely few motors have the option of regen
wturber@reddit
Any direct drive has the capability and many geared hub motors have the possibility of having their clutch modified so that they can also do regen. I don't know of any mid drives that have regen capability. So this is definitely a feature that should be in the "pro" column for hub motors.
https://youtu.be/KDuZFQy_Q-I?si=Iy1iOe36H44VeCRI
Shiney_Metal_Ass@reddit
But almost zero consumer options.
wturber@reddit
That's fair. Tho if you want to "fiddle" with it... 🙂
Militant_Triangle@reddit
If you want to get max health benefit... middrive all the way. As a bonus, its more powerful and more efficient use of the battery.
Down side of mid drive is more maintance. Its not terrible with YouTube videos if you want to self-service your bike.
Not going back to hub drives bikes............. Mid is better in every way IF you want to pedal.
CraziFuzzy@reddit
The amount of weight loss is entitely dependent on the assist level control of the bike, not how that assist gets to the wheels.
wturber@reddit
So... you are saying that you are working harder (losing more waist inches) with the system that you say is more efficient and more powerful. One would expect the opposite to occur.
m2keo@reddit
It's funny all I read is everybody recommending mid drive, per many advantages certainly. But on the streets where I am (Cali), seeing one in person is like seeing a unicorn.
I know price and LBS availability is the most likely issue, but u would think there would be a split of the 2 types out there cuz it's right there online and big outlets like Dick's Goods, REI, etc do carry them.
U guys that own and hype up mid drives on this sub, I just never see u guys out there is all I'm saying. lol.
wturber@reddit
Mid-drives have their advantages, and when done right are very, very nice. But the simple reality is that a hub motor e-bike is satisfactory and maybe even optimal for the vast majority of people and situations.
mayorlittlefinger@reddit
This comes up all the time. Someone needs to build a bike with both but in opposing directions so we can see which one is stronger
wturber@reddit
So much comes down to the particular details.
https://youtu.be/yMdTS30cCbI?si=5yJcdr9dv39loEGi
ayhme@reddit
Mid-Drive provides more power is the usual opinion.
CraziFuzzy@reddit
This comparison explicitly shows the mid drive providing less power (509W) than the hub drive (750W).
wturber@reddit
Correct. @ahyme is confusing torque with power. The mid drive can probably provide more torque, not power. And the lower the available power from the motor the greater the practical benefit of a mid drive. And chain wear becomes less of a factor.
Strykerdude1@reddit
I have a dual motor hub and wish I got a mid drive.
EffectiveFar9176@reddit (OP)
Why is that?
Strykerdude1@reddit
Both are 1500w and even with my giant battery I don’t get decent range unless I refuse to just rear motor and 25% setting. Mid drive is more efficient overall and better on hills.
raleel@reddit
Get that discover M. It has a thing to adjust your power automatically. It has a larger battery. It's just a better bike. Not that either are bad at all.
EffectiveFar9176@reddit (OP)
That’s actually the bike I’m considering. Either that or the Discovery 3.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
I would choose between the Summit 2 and the Discover M.
The Summit 2 components match or exceed the M (other than having a hub drive) for $100 more than the D3. You can always add a suspension seatpost, rack, and high rise handlebar.
EffectiveFar9176@reddit (OP)
I really like the Summit 2 and it would be my first choice. I just question my ability to swing my leg up high enough to get on it.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
You could add a dropper post to make it easier to get on and off. I believe it has wiring access if not pre-wired. Also a useful feature for trail riding.
Johoski@reddit
I have a mid drive and have no regrets. It can eat hills for breakfast. Instead of the occasional 2 hour joyride, for fitness I recently started riding 2x a day for my commute, just 4 miles, 20-30 minutes each way. Pants are already looser.
Mindless-Concept8010@reddit
I read this as “pants are for losers”.
thishasntbeeneasy@reddit
With a mid drive, there's no more panting!
Superb_Raccoon@reddit
You want a mid drive, with a torque sensor system.
Without torque, it is a just a rotating on/off switch. Torque sensing applies a relational amount of power. You put in 10w, it puts in 50w, as an example.
That should be tunable, so you can use more or use less assistance as you gain health and lose weight.
Its not about the amount of power, it is about how it is applied to provide a biking experience and not a throttle experience.
VirtualMachine0@reddit
This isn't how the two cadence sensor bikes I've owned have worked. Each of them had a speed target for each pedal-assist level, so watching the amperage screen, I could see the number dynamically changing, depending on my power input and current speed. There was no observable power cliff, other than when it shut off when I exceed the speed of that level.
Superb_Raccoon@reddit
So what you are seeing is it backing off at the speed limit... something all bikes do.
_KeepOnTrucking_@reddit
To gradually build up your legs, cadence sensor is best.
You can supply just the right amount of pressure without injury,
while still whisking around the countryside:)
A 750w hub motor is marginal for hilly terrain. I had one and
ended up adding another motor to the front.
Dual hub motors is the way to go for high payloads on hills..
Once you ride an AWD, anything else just feels like half a bike.
iSellNuds4RedditGold@reddit
In the first paragraph I think you meant torque sensor.
I'm saying it because I have a cadence sensor and starting can be a bitch, nothing gradual in that.
Or a single mid drive... So you don't need two controllers (aesthetically mid drives don't even "have" controllers, in the sense that it's embedded inside the motor itself and you don't need to figure out where to place it and break the aesthetics of the bike. Also if you have to buy two hub motors for climbing it's gonna be the same price as a single mid drive, except the mid drive will have less complexity.
_KeepOnTrucking_@reddit
If you think a mid drive has less complexity, take a look at a
cutaway view of a mid-drive motor and compare to hub motor.
Of course a mid-drive has a controller. One of my hub drives
has an embedded controller.
Two hub motors will climb a hill twice as fast as a mid-drive
and is much easier on the gear train.
I don't think there's anything aesthetic about a huge wart
on the bottom bracket.
Cadence sensor don't depend on pedal pressure which is
why they are essential for weak or recovering legs.
Bermnerfs@reddit
I weigh about the same and built my own mid-drive with a 750W BBS02 and a 20aH pack. I primarily ride technical singletrack here in New England with lots of steep punchy climbs and root gardens.
The mid drive coupled with an 11-48T 10-speed cassette carries my heavy ass up the steepest of sections without breaking a sweat, the only limit to what it will climb is traction.
At 300lbs, a mid-drive is a no brainer. You will have the advantage of the power being transferred through the gearing making it an absolute torque monster. It's well worth investing a little more $ into. Once it blasts you up the first steep hill you encounter, you'll be glad you went with a mid-drive.
wturber@reddit
What is your maintenance tolerance level? The mid drive will require more frequent chain and freewheel/cassette changes. If your plan is to put many thousands of miles on the bike each year, the hub motor will be easier to live with. If not, and you have hills that matter (in the over 10% grade range), the mid drive may be a better compromise.
Otaraka@reddit
You’re doing a lot of miles for that to be a real issue, I was doing thousands till I changed jobs and had to do it once maybe? The hub might be better for this but it’s not exactly a weekly event with the other - I think the other advantages far outweigh this concern.
MaximusAK@reddit
FWIW, hub motors create less wear on the driveline components. You don't get any additional torque on the chain and cassette that you do with a mid-drive. The heavier the bike (and rider, in some cases), the shorter the transmission's lifespan with mid.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
Sounds like you are comparing the Discover 3 and Discover M.
The M also has a larger battery, better drivetrain, and better fork.
Yes, middrives are better for climbing steep hills. But without quantified descriptions, can't say if the hub would be sufficient or not.
EffectiveFar9176@reddit (OP)
You are correct. Trying to decide what Discover I want.
Amazing_Moose906@reddit
You mentioned "get in shape" , go mid-drive.
Fair-Discipline-1005@reddit
I have rear hub motor,but I think,for you is better buy mid drive motor bike if you want to get in shape...👍
Prestigious_View_401@reddit
If money isn’t an issue, mid drive
Taiyoryu@reddit
If you're choosing between those two options, the mid-drive is the better one. It already produces more torque at the motor. With gearing, the torque at the rear wheel can be doubled, giving you much better hill-climbing performance. The torque of the hub motor is lackluster for the given rated power.
The general rule is hub motors are for flats. Mid-drives are for hills. It's not that hub motors can't climb, it's that you have to increase the rated power as the hills get steeper. Mid-drives do it two ways--increase power and changing the gear ratio. So for the same performance, mid-drives output less power versus an equivalent hub motor.
Of course, mid-drives will wear through chains, so make sure to get ebike-rated ones. Also, sprockets. Those will also tend to be replaced more frequently. Of course, hub motors can wear out the dropouts on the chainstays due to the high torque, so it's usually recommended the motor includes a torque arm. If you don't properly install and reinforce a hub motor, you run the risk of the wheel spinning inside the dropouts, at which point you have to replace the whole frame.
lakantala@reddit
I can give a TLDR cause I've been researching about this for a while
Mid drive provides more power and is more consistent since it also reacts to your gear shift. It uses chains and gears to oower your bike so it's more reactive to the way you pedal in a way while a hub drive uses the wheel to push you forward.
But the thing is, mid drive is much more expensive to buy and more expensive and harder to maintain than hub drives. That's why we see a lot of hub drives than mid drives.
I can reco the mid drive if you'll go through steep hills a lot but if you're just in a city commute with fkat terrain then a hub drive will be easier