Albania didn’t change its toponyms for nationalistic reasons like *cough* Did your country keep old toponyms?
Posted by d2mensions@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 307 comments
Written in Greek because they were first mentioned in Ancient Greek sources. Illyrians didn’t have a writing system.
OxmanPiper@reddit
Copy pasting an old comment of mine after seeing comments here:
Albania and Albanians - Greece's greatest existential threat /s I've emigrated from Albania almost 25 years ago, and occasionally comes a day when I'm reminded of how grateful I am that my parents didn't pick Greece as their destination of choice. Today is one of those days.
pitogyros@reddit
We are glad you didn’t come also ❤️
OxmanPiper@reddit
How can that be the case 😜??
LaVeriteEstDansLeVin@reddit
There are still many toponyms in Greece with foreign etymology.
I don't see he problem. Countries can name their cities however they like, they don't need permission.
My village had a slavic name. The name meant an object, something in slavic like «oak tree» (it wasn't oak tree but something similar) and it got changed in the 50s to a greek word. I don't see the tragedy in that. No history or anything else worthwhile is lost because the name isn't slavic anymore.
Agron7000@reddit
True except for North Macedonia.
LaVeriteEstDansLeVin@reddit
They tried to appropriate our history. It's a whole different issue, there is no point of mixing them up.
Agron7000@reddit
But for some reason they needed a permission and it was denied,right?
Does, this contradict what you said, they are not free to choose.
MartinBP@reddit
They didn't need permission. They could've stuck with the name "Macedonia". They changed it because they wanted to normalise relations with Greece in order to enter organisations Greece was a part of.
brickne3@reddit
Well tbh it's legit insane that Greece had the leverage to bully another country to do that. I'm certainly not defending what North Macedonia does, but it doesn't exactly look great when the countries doing the bullying appear to be doing it solely because they know they can get away with it.
SE_prof@reddit
Your president went on a rampage over the gulf of Mexico. Let that sink in...
tardoos@reddit
I know, right? Trump is braindead, but you're defending yourself doing something similar. What does it say about you?
Particular-Mine2328@reddit
My dear friend, the problem wasn't about the name, the problem was about confusing history facts. Saying that Alexander the great was from north Macedonia it's the problem from a clear Slavic nation wich wasn't even in the region during those years. Anyways my village has also still nowdays Slavic name and probably I am a Slavic also. In Greece Valtesiniko.
Pen-Tool-1987@reddit
The problem is that Greek state made being Slavic a bad thing like some sort of lesser human. That is the problem. Slavic culture and literacy literally flourished from there. People to this day in Florina, Kastoria, Eddesa, Drama etc. still sing and dance to Macedonian slavic songs and dance to them. If Greece accepted this then Macedonia would be something like Catalonia in Spain.
Particular-Mine2328@reddit
I don't believe that. As greek we never had issues with the Slavic nations. Don't forget the relations between Serbia and Greece and also in our schools we learn for many Slavic persons wich fought for the independence of Greece from the ottoman empire and we call them heroes. From what i can understand there is a misunderstanding for the problem greece has with North Macedonia. Again it's not about the name but for what they are accusing about history facts
Pen-Tool-1987@reddit
I also have Vlach heritage and from my other side ancestors from Ioannina and I'm Slavic and with that I'm Macedonian and the Greek state has a problem with that more than the name issue we changed it even though why should we have right to Hellenistic heritage? We are the same substrat of people even the language evolved with each other.
I have a lot of Greek friends and speaking of me and my language as Macedonian is not a problem for them. Ive noticed because I know Greek that when they mention something about me to others they use Skopianos as a term and even though I don't like it I understand why because the sentiment is that Macedonia is only Greek or Hellenic whilist is not is as Slavic as it is Hellenic.
brickne3@reddit
Apologise for the flair, I've been out several decades. I still vote correctly.
baxulax@reddit
The bully is the small Slavic country though ( with “back up” and support from greater powers of course, just to have leverage over Greece)
brickne3@reddit
Oh I'm sorry, is the poor widdle Swavic country somehow able to disarm your nucwear missiles?
Dreadscythe95@reddit
It's better for both countries to excert pressure on each other through diplomacy and leverage rather than let them take their seperate paths till an unbridgable gap has been created, this leads to suffering.
brickne3@reddit
I can perhaps agree with this, although Greece gets undue pressure and it's pretty messed up.
Greek_Bodybuilder995@reddit
His wording was incorrect, I agree. But plagiarism is not a human right. That much should be clear.
Agron7000@reddit
Right. There are so many Macedonias around the world.
Category Location Specific Place Name(s) Sovereign State Balkans North Macedonia (formerly Republic of Macedonia) Administrative Regions Greece West Macedonia, Central Macedonia, East Macedonia & Thrace Administrative Regions Bulgaria Blagoevgrad Province (historically "Pirin Macedonia") Cities & Towns (USA) Ohio Macedonia (City in Summit County) Illinois Macedonia (Village) Iowa Macedonia (City) Municipalities (Brazil) São Paulo Macedônia Towns & Villages (EU) Romania Macedonia (Village in Timiș County) Scotland, UK Macedonia (District in Glenrothes, Fife) Minor Localities (USA) Various Macedonia (Communities in AL, GA, KY, MO, NJ, SC, TN, TX, VA) Minor Localities (Balkans) Albania Mala Prespa (part of the geographic Macedonia region)
Greek_Bodybuilder995@reddit
There is only one Macedonia and that is Greek. All other „Macedonias“ you list are based off it.
Agron7000@reddit
Or they could be referencing the time before Macedonias called themselves Greek, like King Phillips number 2, or even before him.
LaVeriteEstDansLeVin@reddit
They didn't need permission. They made themselves known to the world as Macedonia after Yugoslavia fell. Only Greece called them Skopje.
They needed to change the name AND stop associating with ancient Macedonian because they wanted to join NATO and EU.
Agron7000@reddit
They should have gone with New Macedonia.
I am afraid North Macedonia will make Macedonian nationalism want South Macedonia and take over a portion of Greece. Not that they can, but will create hatred and tensions in the region.
Pen-Tool-1987@reddit
Agron baba, Macedonian nationalism is not as aggressive as the Albanian one.
Agron7000@reddit
Let's just pray, and stop feeding nationalism because someone like Hitler or Milosevic might come up anywhere and rile up the young and stupid
TerranCitizen45@reddit
Maybe if everyone stops demanding stuff from Macedonians, you will have peace.
Ujemegaz@reddit
As if Macedonuans have anything to give.
NickosSB@reddit
A lot of male Albanians are in the region of Macedonia working and sending money over to your families in Albania.
Sybau
Ujemegaz@reddit
In Macedonia? 🤣🤣🤣🤣
NickosSB@reddit
Yeah? There's only 1 Macedonia, the Greek one and there's a lot of Albanians here working?
TerranCitizen45@reddit
I don't see any country in the UN with Macedonia in its name but the Republic of North Macedonia. Your context died out about 2000 years ago.
NickosSB@reddit
Never said as a country. Lol. Cry more
Ujemegaz@reddit
😂
TerranCitizen45@reddit
Albanians killing Macedonians for territory, Bulgarians demanding identity, Greeks denying minority.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Albanians fought for language and equal rights, and still after 25 years they are being tested. It is not a priviledge, it is a birth given right to speak and write their language.
TerranCitizen45@reddit
You fought for the territory, even former DPA leaders said this. And you asked for too much too soon. We were the only ones to include you in governing, Serbs killed you, and Greece doesn't even acknowledge you. There over 1 million Albanians in Greece, why don't you try something there?
Ujemegaz@reddit
Serbs and Greeks killed us, but language is allowed. Presheva Mp in Serbia speaks Albanian in their parliament, and openly displays his flag. In Greece, Albanian community can open schools with their own funds, and can display flags. Cam Albanians were expelled in ww2, and that is an open issue, but Arvanites are not native population of Greece, they moved there in 13th-14th century. They should adopt laws to protect their culture, but their issue is no comparison with Macedonian Albanians who are native, and played crucial role in middle ages. Skanderbeg was from Diber, for instance, and Albanians there have the purest dialect of Albanian language. They have been treated like shit for too long, and you sound arrogant implying that we should be thankful to Macedoniansfor not killing them. We both know Slavs would kill them all if they had the power, but you are weak.
TerranCitizen45@reddit
Literally everyone else but Macedonians either assimilated you or killed you. And you start shit with Macedonians. Again, go start shit in Greece. Try raising an Albanian flag there on a municipal bulding in an Albanian majority town.
Ujemegaz@reddit
We already dealt with Greece in so called Vorio Epir, but our governments never took it on local Greeks, be it royalist or communist. They have their own zones granted by communists because they joined the partizans. Yet, does not mean Cameria is forgoten.
The reason Macedonia still exists today as a state is because official Tirana stopped all cargos of weapons in Durres. Maybe you should worry less about us and Greece, and stay out of Serbian sphere of influence. Unlike Greece, they aren't smart and run away when they face armed units.
TerranCitizen45@reddit
The US stopped weapon shipments to Macedonia. From Ukraine, the big guns, Su25 and Mi24. NATO threatened to bomb Skopje over 20 MPRI US mercenaries in Arachinovo. And before that they tied our hands not to declare a state of war, because we would be at war with the Kosovo Protection Corps (which was an extension of KFOR). And that would create all sorts of problems for them because they had to support the Albanians in Kosovo against the Serbs. UChK barely saw combat against the Macedonian military and was mostly fighting its police force. The one time the military acted with the big guns (at Radusha) it was over in a day. But that would cause even more unrest in Kosovo, and the west REALLY did not like that.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Cool story, bro 🤣
TerranCitizen45@reddit
Learn to read, the US saved the "new kachak" movement.
Ujemegaz@reddit
So what is wrong with kachaks, wasn't that the way we got liberated from Ottomans 🤔
TerranCitizen45@reddit
The "kachaks" collaborated with the fascists in World War 2. Also known as balisti.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Cool.
TerranCitizen45@reddit
https://www.rferl.org/a/1097019.html
Rice also said Ukrainian officials reassured her that Kyiv will halt arms supplies to Macedonia. She said such arms sales do not help ongoing efforts to forge a political settlement between the Macedonian government and ethnic Albanian fighters.
"It is not that the Macedonian government should not have adequate means for its defense. But to rush arms into Macedonia at a time when they are in a political set of discussions -- we think it's not helpful," Rice said.
Macedonia in recent months purchased eight Ukrainian Mi-8 and Mi-24 helicopters along with four Su-25 aircraft.
Not cool at all. Not at all. But true.
Routine_Comb_7277@reddit
All Albanians in Greece have been assimilated quite well,2nd you should change the title to your name , I am Macedonian and as all proper Macedonians we are hellenic ,not you you are N.Macedonian.
Ujemegaz@reddit
You mean Arvanites. Not Albanians.
Routine_Comb_7277@reddit
Ehm no.Most Albanians have been assimilated quite well , they speak Greek although they are still mostly Muslim(which is fine).I used to have many Albanian acquintances when I was in high school and they get equal rights on everything.Long-term lived Albanians can apply for Greek citizenship although I think its 50/50 those who do and those who dont.
brickne3@reddit
Which language is "Muslim" again...?
Routine_Comb_7277@reddit
Ehm none?Just here in the Balkans people are very religious (me excluded) so a nation has both a religion and a language.
brickne3@reddit
You edited it, the original said "Muslim language", which as you now acknowledge is absurd in the Balkans.
Routine_Comb_7277@reddit
No it didnt.I would never say something like this because im not stupid?
Routine_Comb_7277@reddit
Ok even if I did(which I dont think I did) that was a mistake.There is no Muslim language because Islam is a religion ,not a language.However the Quran is written in Arabic so the closest to a muslim language would be 8th century Arabic.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Cool story bro.
Routine_Comb_7277@reddit
Its the truth tho.There is still xenophobia by many Greeks towards Albanians but there are Greek-Albanian families and what I have said is true.You should come visit central or western macedonia to confirm for urself.
Ujemegaz@reddit
They are not native. Just Albanians who moved in 13-14th century. Instead of letting them be like Italians did with Arbereshe, you assimilated them.
Routine_Comb_7277@reddit
No thats not true at all.They are 2nd-3rd generation albanians whose parents came to Greece for work.
TerranCitizen45@reddit
There is only Macedonian ethnicity. And why should a million Albanians assimilate? Why should the "West" demand they get equal rights in one country and let them be assimilated in another?
The only proper Macedonians are the ones with Macedonian in their nationality. Everything else is a puff of smoke.
Routine_Comb_7277@reddit
Also if you stopped voting right wing and maybe get some proper education(from the part of the internet and not nationalistic parts of it) maybe you understand that your claims are clearly delulu and realise that no wonder every neighbor hates you.
TerranCitizen45@reddit
It has nothing to do with right-wing voting and I do have proper education. Now it is time you have some proper education. Here is an INDEPENDENT report from Human Rights Watch Helsinki, the same organization that reports on the Russian crimes in Ukraine.
https://www.hrw.org/report/1994/04/01/denying-ethnic-identity/macedonians-greece
On the basis of the evidence obtained during the fact-finding mission, Human Rights Watch/Helsinki has concluded that:
And you don't even let Macedonians learn their language in a PRIVATE school paid by THEMSELVES.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_for_the_Macedonian_Language_in_Greece
The one-member Court of Appeal of Western Macedonia later overturned the previous judicial decisions regarding the center's functioning.
brickne3@reddit
You would have had me until you brought up Albania. The Albanian minority is 1/3 of the North Macedonian population. Whether you like it or not they are your countrymen and then deserve a voice about what happens in their home.
TerranCitizen45@reddit
The Albanian minority is barely 24%, and that's AFTER the citizenship papers that were going like halva so Kiro Gligorov could get elected in 1994, and then Boris Trajkovski in 1998. And AFTER the 300k refugees came over from Kosovo.
There is currently a law in the making in Macedonia that government officials can only hold Macedonian citizenship. Guess who is objecting to that? Now why would Albanians be objecting over that? Almost every other country has a law like that.
brickne3@reddit
I don't think I have ever left Reddit for a few hours and come back to twenty messages, yowza.
So you acknowledge they are at least a quarter of the population, which tracks with the 1/3 estimate actually given there are good reasons ethnic Albanians might choose not to be counted as such.
I'm no bit fan of the Albanian minority either, they ran some really shady establishments around where we stayed in 2021. But to deny they exist j significant numbers in North Macedonia is kind of wild.
TerranCitizen45@reddit
After severe migration and breeding like rabbits because they were hardcore Muslim most of them, and still only 24%.
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
Lol, New Macedonia would make it sound like a Greek colony though, like New York, New Orleans etc.
brickne3@reddit
What gives Greece the right to associate with ancient Macedonia?
NickosSB@reddit
Murican by any chance?
brickne3@reddit
Y'all don't do much to dispell the sheep herder stereotype.
kikosaug@reddit
Historical heritage
brickne3@reddit
Bullshit.
achilleas_peos@reddit
What gives historians the right to call the period after Alexander the Great's conquests the Hellenistic Period?
tardoos@reddit
They were called Macedonia before Yu fell
And who forced them to do that? Finland?
PlayfulMountain6@reddit
North Macedonia is not associated with ancient Macedonian?!
Ujemegaz@reddit
Countries can name places however they please, remember 🤣
LaVeriteEstDansLeVin@reddit
They called themselves Macedonia for 30 years before they had to face the fact that they can't appropriate someone else's history.
Ujemegaz@reddit
I could care less. Just displays your hipocrisy altering names to your convenience. Plus, ancient Macedonians were a Thracean tribe, such is the concensus of historians.
LaVeriteEstDansLeVin@reddit
We can't rename Athens as Paris and claim Napoleon as greek. Is that so hard to understand?
Macedonians were greeks who spread the greek language from here all the way to the borders of India and made it the lingua franca.
brickne3@reddit
If you think that the ancient Macedonia s were speaking Hellenic Greek... Wow, you need a history lesson and a linguistics textbook.
SE_prof@reddit
Did you open it?
brickne3@reddit
Got a degree and have been working in the field for two decades, how about you? 🤣
SE_prof@reddit
Well....not money well spent I guess....
brickne3@reddit
Dude you should see the racists getting banned right and left here, it's beyond well spent lol.
SE_prof@reddit
I'm Greek and I've been studying my language for 20 years. You're gonna talk to me? Aristotle taught Alexander. In what language, English???
brickne3@reddit
Baiased much?
SE_prof@reddit
You don't even know how to write in English. As I said, money well spent....
kikosaug@reddit
What where they speaking sir. Please enlighten us.
brickne3@reddit
Well if you got yourself a linguistics degree you would know for a fact it wasn't Hellenic Greek.
Signal-Conference106@reddit
As someone who got a linguistics degree, studied comparative linguistics and classical philology, i can certainly tell that you don't have any as you're completely ignorant and wrong about the current scholar consensus on Ancient Macedonian language and exposing yourself by using terms that doesn't exist ("Hellenic Greek").
brickne3@reddit
I'm very sorry to hear your university sucks that badly.
kikosaug@reddit
Behold!! The esteemed ancient madeconian language! So different and unique compared to exotic greek
brickne3@reddit
No point in pointing out how absolutely stupid an argument that is. But thanks for the laughs 🤣
kikosaug@reddit
You'll make no point because you can't 😂😂
We're all laughing with your moronic statements since yesterday and still got no points and answers so we can laugh some more. 😂😂
ΒΑΣΙΛΕΎΣ ΑΛΈΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ. Do you recognise the alphabet or did you fail math at middle school?
kikosaug@reddit
Bullshit
Dreadscythe95@reddit
They spoke Greek since before the 8th century BC lol. They were NOT Thracians, lol.
brickne3@reddit
It's interesting that you insist thry were NOT Thracians. Why specifically?
Dreadscythe95@reddit
Because thentracians had a separate language, religion and culture. Greeks had Greek cities in the tracian coast like Odessa (Varna) Mesimvria or Byzantium and they were separate in culture to the Thracian mainland as well.
Btw we are talking about 1000 BC onwards. Late Bronze age/Early Iron age. It is probably considered that the Macedonians were helenised around that time.
brickne3@reddit
So you're going for a "Großgriechenland" model but without the troublesome Vardar 🤣🤣🤣
Dreadscythe95@reddit
What? Whon laims North Macedonian land exactly? Internet trolls nowadays lol.
brickne3@reddit
Dude at least one major Roman emperor was born in "Vardar". But do continue because it's rather amusing.
No-Championship-4632@reddit
Maybe you need to do that.
SOHONEYSAME@reddit
cope.
sangueblu03@reddit
All of their writing, for hundreds of years before Alexander, was “Hellenic Greek”
merdeauxfraises@reddit
As someone with both Thracian and Macedonian ancestors, I’m sorry but you are wrong. Both in antiquity and later history these were two distinct populations with their own separate customs, clothing and beliefs.
MartinBP@reddit
My bro no one has identified as Thracian for over 1500 years, how could you possibly track that? And I'm saying this as someone from Thrace.
merdeauxfraises@reddit
That’s a ridiculous statement. Thrace is a bar of an area do this day, how could people NOT identify as thracians? I grew up listening to Thracian songs and learning Thracian folk legends. 😆
Signal-Conference106@reddit
You are deluded to about the same extent that a hypothetical Turk living in Biga believes that he listens to Trojan songs and learns Trojan folk legends.
merdeauxfraises@reddit
Doesn’t hurt to know some people manage to keep their culture and traditions alive, or you don’t have any to begin with so you don’t know what you’re missing?
Signal-Conference106@reddit
I mean if you sincerely believe that you keep Thracian culture alive while being Greek, Bulgarian, Turkish etc., then you definitely failed to do so, because you obviously don't understand where your culture comes from. Although i'd really like to hear at least one song or folk legend that you considered to be of a Thracian origin, just to show you that it has nothing to do with the Thracian people
Ujemegaz@reddit
Yes. Tribes.
merdeauxfraises@reddit
They began as tribes and evolved into groups of tribes that became kingdoms. Simple “tribes” isn’t remotely accurate.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Yes. Not Greek. Concensus among scholars is that Illyrians and Thraceans were a common group, and Macedonisns were dinstinct from both Illyrians and Thraceans, but in the end, they were one mass.
Substantial-Peach-90@reddit
Yes because famously ancient Macedonians spread the Thracian and Illyrian culture, language, architecture all the way to Kazakhstan and India and not the Greek 🤣
Ujemegaz@reddit
Romans spread latin langiage as well. Doesn't mean French were latin originally.
NickosSB@reddit
Ancient Macedonians were a Greek tribe. Ancestors from Alexander the Great came from Argos. Whatever monkeys (like you) now are living in the lands of "North Macedonia" have nothing to do with Greek people.
Ujemegaz@reddit
https://www.google.com/search?q=fredi+beleri&oq=fredi+beleri&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCggAEAAY4wIYgAQyCggAEAAY4wIYgAQyBwgBEC4YgAQyCggCEAAYxwMYgAQyCAgDEAAYFhgeMggIBBAAGBYYHjIICAUQABgWGB4yCAgGEAAYFhgeMggIBxAAGBYYHjIICAgQABgWGB4yCAgJEAAYFhgeMggIChAAGBYYHjIICAsQABgWGB4yCAgMEAAYFhgeMggIDRAAGBYYHjIICA4QABgWGB7SAQg1NzM1ajBqOagCAbACAQ&client=ms-android-samsung-ss&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
Orthobrah52102@reddit
I'm a numismatist, someone who studies coinage and the history thereof. The ancient Macedonians were Greek. Coins of Philip, Alexander, and their successors in Macedon and the kingdoms established by the Diadochi(Alexander's Generals) all minted coins in the GREEK language. Ancient Greek coins are found as far East as Bactria. Greek was the lingua franca of the Eastern Mediterranean for centuries even after the Romans came along, because of Alexander spreading Hellenism so far.
Signal-Conference106@reddit
So as far as I understand, judging by the language spoken by the ruling dynasty of England in the 12th century, they were French, and judging by the coins, Romans?
pitogyros@reddit
You comparing a period of English history.
The difference is Macedonians took part in Olympics which was only for Greeks , they had Greek names , they spoke Greek , their lore and origin was from Greek myths. Their entire history is tied to Greek , not just a period
Macedonians conquered everything from Balkans to India , the ONLY language found anywhere between those distances is Greek , whether it’s coin whether its inscriptions.
Even Persians inscriptions described them as Greek
Signal-Conference106@reddit
Yes, I do, and the only reason I do it is to show you that everything you know about the Macedonians is based on evidence about the ancient Macedonian aristocracy, which was obviously heavily Hellenized. It was the aristocracy that competed in the Olympic Games, it was the aristocracy that linked its origins to Greek myths (honestly, what does that even prove? Does that make the Thebans Phoenicians then?), it was the aristocracy that conquered the entire world, all the way to India. The fact that all the inscriptions and coins are written in Greek only proves this, because they're written in the Attic dialect, which the ancient Macedonians clearly didn't speak. Of course, the Persians thought they were Greek. If the Normans had conquered Persia in the 12th century, they would have thought the French had conquered them. But why ask the Persians when we can ask the Greeks themselves?
In Herodotus's Histories (5.22), he notes that the Macedonian king was able to prove his Hellenic descent, despite the contestants demanding exclusion. Obviously, the Greeks did not regard the Macedonians as their kinsmen, so King Alexander was forced to prove his descent from the kings of Argos.
Now, Demosthenes, Philippic 3 (9.31), pretty much self-explanatory:
"And yet they show no such feeling in regard to Philip, although not only is he no Hellene, not only has he no kinship with Hellenes, but he is not even a barbarian from a country that one could acknowledge with credit; — he is a pestilent Macedonian, from whose country it used not to be possible to buy even a slave of any value."
I want to point out that I'm not claiming that the ancient Macedonians were "non-Greeks." It is known that they spoke a language that can be considered either a dialect of Greek or a relative of Greek. The precise ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians is debatable. I'm just saying that all the arguments you guys provided are rather pointless.
Cosmic_Entity21@reddit
You might need to face the fact about the illusions and delusional fairy tales that have been fed to you by your state's nationalist ideology. Then we shall see who is appropriating what.
Consistent-Sun-354@reddit
“Our history”. Modern Greeks quite literally have 0 continuity with Ancient Macedonians and are for this reason genetically identical to the “Skopjans” they call Slavic invaders. The whole region of Macedonia saw 3 huge migrations which completely changed the genetic makeup since ancient Macedonia. Modern Greek Macedonia wasn’t even majority Greek speaking 100 years ago let alone 400 years ago when Greek was basically nonexistent relegated to the Christian upper classes alone. Not even rural Halkidiki was Greek speaking in the 1600s.
While I totally agree North Macedonia has nothing to do with ancient Macedonia, neither does Greece by any means. Recent rehellenization, expulsion of Turks and Macedonians Slavs/Bulgarians as well as settlement of Anatolian refugees won’t change that,
kikosaug@reddit
Pure propaganda post. Are you gonna claim greeks went extinct next too?
BillGR7@reddit
Yes are you psifizeis syrisa or something?
brickne3@reddit
Oh ffs. I am no fan of the North Macedonian government but the more you keep bullying them on every little nitpick the more obvious it becomes that the countries doing it are afraid of their own issues. Greece in particular.
TerranCitizen45@reddit
There is no problem with ancient history, Greece has a problem with the last 100 years. Like Metaxas committing cultural genocide and then again after the Greek civil war. All because Macedonians want to use their language.
LaVeriteEstDansLeVin@reddit
Of course there was a problem. Do me a favor and ask in your sub if Alexander was greek, tge replies will be hilarious.
He is remembered as a dictator, what else do you want.
TerranCitizen45@reddit
Greece had a problem with an independent Macedonia since 1991. Nobody gave a shit about Alexander then.
Metaxas is long gone, but his politics have seemed to stay.
Pen-Tool-1987@reddit
You don't see tragedy cuz your family was brought most likely from Anatolia and that place had a Slavic name and Slavic folk lived there for 1500 years. The etymology is not foreign it is NATIVE. The greek administrative region of Macedonia was created in 1987 so don't give me the bullshit claim. Also to this day people speak Macedonian in Florina, Kastoria, Eddesa. Sing and dance to Macedonian songs like they did for 1500 years honoring their Slavic culture.
skyduster88@reddit
I know of a town in the Peloponnese that had a Slavic name, and was changed. Those "Slavic people that sang and danced for 1500 years" is us. They're 10% of my ancestry. I'm Peloponnesian, not BrOuGhT fRoM aNaToLiA, and I'm not crying about the name change.
Most name changes in the region are just phonetic re-prenunciations. And this occurs across Europe. It's not just the Balkans. But people in this sub are offended by everything.
Pen-Tool-1987@reddit
My Grandfather was seperated from his mum and his dad died at the hands of the Greek authorities so if it happens across Europe it's cool ya? He was send to freaking Uzbekistan a kid. He saw his mother after almost 20 years dying... He is from Buf his house is still there... There are still people that sing the songs and dance. Especially in Florina. I've been there a few times. Everyone speaks Macedonian nobody even remotely thinks they are Bulgarian. Why is it such a problem and such a shame for people to call themselves Slavic. I've seen people scold their old folk for saying they are Makedones because they are afraid of nationalistic prics. I mean if 1500 years of history is not enough to accept someone as your neighbor and brother I don't know what is.
Orthodox-Paradox@reddit
Nah bro, they speak their own variation of Slavic language. They are as close to the North Macedonian as North Macedonian are to Bulgarian. The language is more heavily influenced by Turkish and Greek elements, and has more loanwords. It is a creole (Bulgarian) Slavic language.
However the music, dances and some traditions (Kolyada/Kolda Babo) are similar due to geographic proximity. Some are even the same melodies.
The people of those villages elected to change most names, however it is not universal. The slavic names were not that problematic post WW2 (they were an issue during the metaxas period).
Source : my grandma was from Perdikas and told me about their language (unfortunately did not teach me). She also claimed that the language was more close to Bulgarian, since she could speak with Bulgarians easily but was challenged with North Macedonians (Skopianoi). I also did some research on the language and there were some efforts to catalogue it before the North Macedonian affiliated institution swoopt in and claimed our heritage.
RijnBrugge@reddit
Loanwords do not a creole make.
Pen-Tool-1987@reddit
There is no such thing as North Macedonian and by the agreement that is a fact it's only Macedonian. The Kastoria, Eddesa and Florina dialect especially are extremely close to the Bitola dialect in all it's form and pronouncing. My grandfather was from Florina and don't give me the Bulgarian bullcrap. Metaxas did everything to erase the Slavic culture from these places hence the erasure of the toponyms. Almost all of disapora in Australia and US are people from these villages. Sugarcoating the exodus won't make it go away. You can never erase the Slavic element from Macedonia.
Orthodox-Paradox@reddit
Yes metaxas did everything to erase any slavic element from northern Greece.
However in Kozani our dialect is so different that our people believe that they are closer to Bulgarians. And we identify as Macedonians. Ergo you are Nothern Macedonians for us.
Pen-Tool-1987@reddit
If you really live in Greece identify as a Macedonian and have Slavic heritage we wouldn't be having this conversation. We would be talking which song hits harder. So we Macedonians actually call this Bulgaring the conversation.
SOHONEYSAME@reddit
North Macedonia cope.
Orthodox-Paradox@reddit
We define Macedonian in a different way.
RijnBrugge@reddit
Buddy, yours is the country that threw a multi-decade long hissy fit over the name of a neighboring country.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Yes, artificially.
NatureRiver@reddit
As opposed to naming cities organically? How does that work? What do you even mean 😂😂
Ujemegaz@reddit
Why do Greeks change names then, if meaning doesn't matter 🤣
NatureRiver@reddit
I never said meaning doesn’t matter. I asked what do you mean by “artificially named” and how would be different than let’s say “organically named” ?
Ujemegaz@reddit
I am not a teacher. Google or read a book.
NatureRiver@reddit
I know you are not a teacher, you are too dumb for it 😂
Ujemegaz@reddit
Hoha, personal remarks. I guess that explains so many replies.
PurpleDrax@reddit
Lol
Max_ach@reddit
Hahahaha right?? Hahaha
Mysterious_Contact_2@reddit
Of course, had to make room for your grandpa to come from trabzond and make everyone believe he is entitled to the place ;)
SOHONEYSAME@reddit
🧂🧂.
gesti2002@reddit
It removes the Albanian speaking names from Greece in order to delete anything associated with Albanians
LaVeriteEstDansLeVin@reddit
There's no law against it.
gesti2002@reddit
Technically youre at war with Albania and u have seized all properties of Albanians
Dreadscythe95@reddit
No we are not. In your stupid way of think you also sit on Northen Epirus lol. Inb4 you believe that Epirotes where Illyrians or something, lol.
LaVeriteEstDansLeVin@reddit
Yeah bro, they just called me to the front. See you there !
gesti2002@reddit
I dont think well meet bro, we’re stuck mid way through cuz our roads are fucked
CypriotGreek@reddit
Why, there are plenty of places in Greece with Slavic, Albanian, even Latin toponyms. That’s not the issue. The issue is you conveniently ignore that many of these places were originally founded by Greeks, then taken over, renamed, and later taken back again.
You can’t take someone else’s place, change its name, and then complain when it gets reverted. What exactly are they supposed to change it to if the original name was already Greek?
And it’s honestly funny hearing this from Albania of all places, talking about minorities and treatment. Under Hoxha, your own record wasn’t exactly shining. Meanwhile, hundreds of thousands of Albanians came to Greece over the past decades and lived, worked, and integrated here. Yet somehow Greece is painted as the villain.
justiceteo@reddit
So the argument is it was promised to you 3000 years ago
Dreadscythe95@reddit
Where did he say it was promised? You shouldn;t delete history though when it suits you. He said they had Greek names because Greeks lived there in ancient times and so the Greeks choose these names, lol.
Absalom578@reddit
You can't say "You shouldn't delete history when it suits you", then adovocate deleting history by changing the name of a place that has been called that for 1000+ years.
Dreadscythe95@reddit
I don't think it should be changed like that though. Which is rarely the case btw.
Anastasia_of_Crete@reddit
Unironically yes, killing and displacing a native people from their native land is bad actually and reversing it is justified and good actually.
Absalom578@reddit
Trying to portray the destruction of any historical ethnicity minority presence in Greece that was done for nationalist reasons as "decolonisation" is so stupid it's hilarious.
"Yikes sweetie, did you know this land was glorious Hellas 3000 years ago? We'll be decolonising it by removing you and making up some new Greek name for it."
It's pathetic to try and portray it like that.
Agron7000@reddit
You cannot say Illyrians didn't have writing system. You can say we didn't find one yet, if there was found one, it hasn't been made public yet.
If you don't/don't see the evidence, it doesn't mean there is no evidence.
pitogyros@reddit
You can’t say that Ancient Greeks didn’t have F35 and ballistic missiles , you can say we didn’t find it yet.
It’s virtually impossible for such a huge region with so many tribes , right next to Greek and Romans who recorded EVERYTHING , have “ lost “ their writing system , if there was one , we would have found it
Agron7000@reddit
No one knew The Grave of the "Griffin Warrior" existed until 2015.
No one knew The 4,000-Year-Old "Labyrinth" of Crete existed until 2024.
No one knew The Lost City of Tenea existed until 2018.
No one knew The Antikythera Mechanism existed until 1901.
Therefore you can never say something doesn't exist, it's just not been discovered yet.
Signal-Conference106@reddit
Nah my man, argumentum ad ignorantiam doesn't work here as it is known that Messapians adapted the Greek alphabet for their language. They wouldn't have needed it if they had their own writing system.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Si armet e shkaterrimit ne mase 🤣
Fun_Selection8699@reddit
Albania also recognises minorities unlike cough
Dull_Cucumber_3908@reddit
Well, everyone is assimilated in Greece, no need for any extra rights. Only the muslim minority needs some extra rights because Turkey said so. So the muslim Greeks, are not equal to the rest of the Greeks, contrary for example to the jew Greeks.
Born_Name_6549@reddit
What ethnicity are aromanians?
Dull_Cucumber_3908@reddit
If you ask them they will say that they are Greek Vlachs (they use the term Vlach).
And just to avoid any pointless discussions: Greece works like USA, where everyone is an American first of all and then they have some other identity (like Greek American, Native American, AfroAmerican etc).
Born_Name_6549@reddit
Do the vlach see themselves as a latin minority in greece?
Fearless_Function633@reddit
Ethnic minority
Born_Name_6549@reddit
So their latin origins are stripped from them? In albania they consider themselves italian, just like the arberesh consider themselves albanian. In greece, however, these ethnic minorities seem to be much more patriotic. I wonder why.
Fearless_Function633@reddit
No , aromanians we are ethnically aromanians with our own language, customs , heritage and different blood than neogreeks who are mixed anatolian romhioi. But greek state is based in a delusional propaganda of assimilation. There are a lot of valchs with the same belief and the ones that consider themselves ethnically greek is because of years of opression brainwashing among woth the nedd to fit in. And in fact greece is the only state that doesn't recognize us and other minorites.
MartinBP@reddit
That's something Greece and Bulgaria (and Romania to an extent) seem to share which countries in the Western Balkans struggle to comprehend.
Maybe it's because we're the same religion and lived in the same regions before all the wars but had inter-Ottoman struggles over the independence of the Exarchate that helped foster distinct civic identities in our countries instead of the purely linguistic or religious identites you see in the rest of the peninsula.
fk_censors@reddit
In Romania the identify is primarily linguistic. The minorites speak foreign languages (with the exception of some Gypsies who have unfortunately lost their ancestral language and speak the predominant language in their area, mostly Romanian or Hungarian).
bayern_16@reddit
TIL there are Greek Jews
kostasnotkolsas@reddit
Well you lot sure knew 84 years ago
Euromantique@reddit
Thessaloniki was plurality Jewish in the Ottoman period.
itboygr@reddit
Only a few because of cough cough
hood5six@reddit
There is a massive Albanian diaspora abroad, for sure. Australia has a huge former Yugoslav community and other Balkan peoples, so I can only assume that includes Albanians. Canada, probably.
Definitely in the states, especially in the New York City and New Jersey, where I'm from. I went to high school with a lot or Albanians, whose families all came from either mainland Albania, Montenegro, Macedonia, and Kosovo. Decently sized Greek population in the city as well.
FloppyDiskDrives@reddit
Every Balkan country has a history of forced assimilation, Albania included. King Zog closed minority schools, and Hoxha literally forced Serbs, Montenegrins, and Greeks to change their last names to sound Albanian. Pointing at a piece of paper today doesn't erase the fact that 'Albanization' was state policy for decades.
Antique_Birthday6380@reddit
No, not really. Life was hard for everyone back then, but minorities did have their rights. There are plenty of photos from that time taken by foreign photographers, and in Greek minority villages there were signs in Greek, and people spoke Greek freely. When Enver Hoxha visited the Greek minority, he even greeted them in Greek. I can’t imagine even the most democratic leader in Serbia or Greece doing that.
obzovica@reddit
In Montenegro we had Albanian Prime-Minister. I can't imagine any country in the Balkans having a 5% minority for a Prime Minister.
Antique_Birthday6380@reddit
As far as I know, there isn’t any law in Montenegro that gives minorities priority to hold higher positions than the Montenegrins. He worked to get to that position, it’s literally called meritocracy. Good for him, even though he has virtually done nothing for Albanians. As for the treatment and hatred you have toward Albanians, even people in North Korea know that. Let’s not start talking about Kosovo now.
obzovica@reddit
The same Kosovo that Montenegro recognize? That Kosovo?
First of all, there is a law that grant minorities additional rights, when we chose the last member of Constitutional Court it needed to be Albanian, although it is a court, and should be based on meritocracy not ethnicity, yet we chose Albanian in order for them not to feel unrepresenteted, although again, it is a court of law, it doesnt matter who is in there, the law is the law, the constitution is the constitution.
Also, Albanian was chosen to be a Prime Minister, he was voted by Montenegrins and got to that position, tell me any other country that would vote minority to be a Prime Minister, no one would do that, in Kosovo for example, in constitution Montenegrin minority is not even recognized as such.
Antique_Birthday6380@reddit
Didn’t know that, thanks for info
As far as I know, Abazović participates actively in Montenegrin politics and not specifically only on minority issues. If even an Arab or a Jew were to say, “I will work for Albania,” Albanians would definitely vote for him, because he would truly be working for Albania. The same applied to Abazović in Montenegro.
Because the Serbian minority was at its largest, only about 5,000 people, ironically during communism, and ironically the vast majority of them arrived during King Zog’s time, settling in some rural areas in the north, and at most they were farmers because they did not want to integrate into Albanian urban life, that is not discrimination, contrary to the previous comments.
But i know that minority rights in Montenegro, especially nowadays, are quite decent. I can’t lie about that. But I’m talking about Serbia and the Serbs, about that Serbia which lectures its neighbors about humanity, while at the same time some of the most disgusting and barbaric things you can witness have been caused by them.
They talk about nationalism and revisionism, while in reality there is no country in Europe more ultra-nationalist and xenophobic than Serbia.
obzovica@reddit
Yes, he is a regular platform politician, not based on minority politics, BUT my point is that if Montenegrins are so bigoted against Albanians like comments suggested, quote ''As for the treatment and hatred you have toward Albanians, even people in North Korea know that.'' then it would be impossible to have Albanian for Prime Minister and people to allow and vote for that.
Antique_Birthday6380@reddit
I was speaking about Serbs mostly, and i think that Montenegrins have more or less same perceptions. Personal experiences have made me believe this.
obzovica@reddit
You need to account that 30% of Montenegrin citizens are Serbs.
Active-Radish2813@reddit
The hatred can't be too bad by Balkan standards (emphasis) if he got there. Must be at least lesser than Ukrainian antisemitism.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Abazovic had a technical mandate. The Montengrins needed someone to sign off the churches to Serbia. Don't be naive.
obzovica@reddit
It was technical mandate AFTER his mandate was finished. So Montenegrins chose an Albanian to gift churches to Serbia? Sounds logical :D
Ujemegaz@reddit
Would a Montengrin sign such thing? Albanians don't care about religion. We would sign off our own churches to Serbia.
obzovica@reddit
We also don't care, we are not very religious, who is religious in Montenegro are Serbs.
Ujemegaz@reddit
I had a wrong impression, then. I thought Abazobic was just an useful idiot.
DardanianGOD@reddit
HAHAHAHAHHAHA SHIT THAT NEVER HAPPENED. Serbs never even lived in Albania. Otherwise we’d never hear the end of how Velipoje is the craddle of Serbian empire lol
Active-Radish2813@reddit
Everyone lived everywhere before the independence revolutions. That's why the Balkan Wars of the 19th century happened.
FloppyDiskDrives@reddit
You should probably let the Albanian government know they made a huge mistake, since they officially recognized the Serb minority in 2017. Also, the residents of Vraka might be surprised to hear they don't exist. Forced assimilation via Hoxha’s Decree 225 is well documented history, not a conspiracy theory.
There's a pattern on this sub where the people with the least amount of historical knowledge, and I keep noticing it’s usually Albanians, are somehow the loudest. Responding with all caps instead of doing a basic objective search just proves you're parroting brainwashed, revisionist talking points. Typical for you, so I’m not really surprised.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Albanian givernment has recognised protestant christianity as an official religion also. We recognize whoever and whatever and avoid any drama.
aliksavin@reddit
The serb minority was recognized because it was split from the Serbo-montenegrin minority, where the majority was made by Montenegrins.
mrluks@reddit
Unfortunately its a Balkan subreddit. And the same type of ignorant brainwashed idiots that destroyed our countries appear here sometimes.
krisvelde@reddit
vivaervis@reddit
Minorities had more rights than proper Albanians during communism. What are you talking about?
aliksavin@reddit
Sureeeee buddy. What you have been taught in school is wild.
bigbolls4U@reddit
This is a lie. I know many greeks from southern albania who grew up in the regime they barely knew how to speak albanian because they only learned greek in school. I dont know about the zog era but during hoxhas regime minorities were more than respected and preserved and were actually treated better than albanians themselves. The same thing is happening today believe it or not.
obzovica@reddit
Maybe Greeks but Montenegrins in the North were heavily assimilated and they were forbidden to study in their language and to give names they wanted to their kids. That's why today you have people that have Albanian names yet Montenegrin surnames, I know few of them myself.
Today situation is much better but it's much easier to give all rights to minorities when you already decreased their numbers to non-relevant factor, like what Germans for example did with Lusatian Serbs.
hubbabubbameqershi@reddit
What Serbs did Hoxha forced? There aren't any Serbs in Albania. There Greeks in Gjirokaster, they had Greek schools, he even allowed Greek schools in non minority zones, and the Macedonian minority also had all the rights.
Slow-Loan-9041@reddit
Waiting for Greeks to justify their toponymic changes while saying Constantinople to Istanbul is different and doesn’t count
thanasis87kav@reddit
Some foreign people changed Greek toponyms into something, until they got their ass kicked back to where they came from and toponyms changed back to Greek again. The cycle of life.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Judging by the fact that you exchanged asian population with european one, i struggle to understand how * the ass kicking of where they came from * occured.
Substantial-Peach-90@reddit
If you take a look at the borders of Greece now and you compare them with 200 years ago, you will understand whose ass got kicked
Ujemegaz@reddit
Most of current Greeks, have origins from either Arvanites/Vlachs, or Minor Asia. Yet you consider Macedpnians as ancestors 😂
Substantial-Peach-90@reddit
Oh right, I forgot. That’s right! That must be very true if we take the opinion of the Albanian Ujemegaz as valid. You must be a great geneticist, as great as those historians that support that ancient Macedonians were Illyrians and Thracians. 🤣
Ujemegaz@reddit
It is not an opinion. It is historic fact. Aromanian and Arvanite community was considerable. Population exchange changed the nature og Greeks drastically. Your country is a melting pot of various conmunities.
Substantial-Peach-90@reddit
Any proper DNA study you find about Greece, will tell you that the Greek population has continuity from ancient populations of the Greek peninsula and Aegean and has kept the same genetic core with only few extra layers of influence.
The major influence being the Slavic input from the Slavic invasions and also in a lesser extent an eastern Mediterranean input during Hellenistic, Roman and Byzantine times and mostly in the eastern Aegean islands. These are the exact same external influences the population of Albania and the rest of Balkans went through as well. We are no different in this regard. Anything else you say is laughable
Absalom578@reddit
No it doesn't. You can look at Y-Haplogroups of Greece in ancient and modern times and see that 75%+ of those that existed among ancient Greeks do not among modern Greeks, for one thing.
Huge population replacements happened among Greeks from ancient era to now. Absolutely nothing like Albanians so trying to compare that is hilarious.
Substantial-Peach-90@reddit
You’re completely delusional. Your uneducated, unsupported and invalid claims are the ones that are hilarious.
First of all since you say specifically 75+% haplogroup replacement, it would only be fair to mention what are these replaced haplogroups, with what other haplogroups got replaced and how you came up with the 75% result. Let’s see you confidently and functionally support these claims, the same way you confidently and arrogantly write them.
Second, genetics don’t work the way you think, haplogroups don’t mean ancestry. Even if linages disappear, a population can still remain largely continuous and in fact haplogroup dynamics shift even naturally without external influence. Haplogroups track only a fraction of your ancestry, and they are only good at showing population movements over many thousands of years, they don’t measure actual ancestry.
Ujemegaz@reddit
We are different. Ni need of genetics to see that.
thanasis87kav@reddit
Isn’t your prime minister, Rama, of Greek origin? Imagine how many tens of thousands of Greeks have undergone institutionalised Albanisation over the past century. So what if Greece homogenised (already Hellenic populations) within its modern borders?
Ujemegaz@reddit
Yeah, Rama sounds very Greek indeed 🤣
pitogyros@reddit
Oh if we are going with nonsense theories then why not mention that Albanians come from Azerbaijan also ? 😂
Ujemegaz@reddit
At least it is part of Europe. Levant isn't.
pitogyros@reddit
Barely in Europe , and what Levant are you talking about ? 😂
The number of Greeks from Levant is virtually 0 , sure there are some tiny numbers of Levantine people who live in Syria and Lebanon claiming to be Greeks but that’s irrelevant
Ujemegaz@reddit
Turkey emptied all their villages of christians and send them to Greece during populatiin exchange, where do they come from you think.
pitogyros@reddit
It’s funny you think that makes any point 😂
You know Anatolian Greeks , mainland Greeks and Albanians share the same pretty much Anatolian ancestry right ?
You are aware that since Albanians are paleo Balkan also they have Anatolian ancestry also right ? 😂
In fact Ancient Greeks were even more Anatolian than modern Greeks because modern Greeks have 10% Slavic ancestry also ( like Albanians )
SOHONEYSAME@reddit
Greece is the one Balkan country that expanded the most AND managed to keep (to this day) its gains.
(Greece more than doubled its original territory, Serbia also gained significant land up to WW1 but lost some of it following decades).
thanasis87kav@reddit
National uprising, two winning Balkan wars, are you ok?
Ujemegaz@reddit
Turkey emptied all anatolian villages and in return they got europeans. It is common knowledge that muslims in Balkans were not Turks, but native Albanian, Greek, Bulgarian etc.
hero_in_@reddit
Istanbul is still greek name though
Sea_Gap_6569@reddit
True. The name they insist to use, Constantinople, is Roman
Kitsooos@reddit
It's literally Greek for "Constantin's city" ...
Sea_Gap_6569@reddit
An Italian Roman emperor. Yeah I’m well aware that -pole suffix is Greek. Istanbul is turkified version of stam polin (towards the city), which was typically used by Greek inhabitants. Why greeks insist not to use it is beyond irrational
Failed_General@reddit
My dude, Constantine the Great may have ruled a Latin-speaking empire, but Konstantinos (Κωνσταντίνος) has been a fully naturalized Greek name for well over a millennium (its my name for gods sake). At this point, its linguistic origin is almost irrelevant—it functions as a standard Greek given name. On the etymology: the “stam polin” explanation is a simplification. The more accurate form is closer to “εἰς τὴν πόλιν” (is tin polin, “to the city”). Over time, in spoken Greek, that phrase likely contracted and was reinterpreted by Turkish speakers into Istanbul. But crucially, Greeks themselves did not call the city “to the city”—they called it simply “ἡ Πόλις” (the City), which shows how central it was in the Greek linguistic and cultural world. So in practice, Greek has historically used: Konstantinoupoli (Κωνσταντινούπολη) – the formal, historical name I Poli (Η Πόλη) – the colloquial “the City” “Istanbul,” by contrast, is not an independent naming tradition from Greek—it’s a phonetic evolution derived from a Greek phrase. So expecting Greeks to abandon their own long-established terms in favor of a missheard version of their own language is unreasonable. The same pattern applies elsewhere—for example, Izmir ultimately derives from the Greek i Smyrni (η Σμύρνη). More broadly, place names are embedded in each language’s historical continuity. English says “Rome,” not Roma; Greeks say “Londino,” not London. No one treats that as irrationality, it’s just how languages work. Finally, using traditional Greek names isn’t about irredentism. It’s simply linguistic continuity. There’s no serious political claim behind it, just the fact that these names have existed in Greek usage for centuries or even millennia, and languages don’t discard that kind of depth lightly.
Slow-Loan-9041@reddit
I hope you feel the same when Turks use Turkish names for Greek cities.
Failed_General@reddit
Well, I was referring specifically to the cities in turkey with a traditional greek name and a strong enough history for that name to have endured linguistically, but even setting that aside, sure why not? Why should I care about what word turkish speakers use amongst themselves to specify a city? This would only be problematic if a turkish name was artificially revived or constructed in order to legitimise territorial claims, otherwise it makes absolutely no difference to me.
Slow-Loan-9041@reddit
Ah yes another “this only applies to a very specific scenario that very conveniently excludes the scenario that you mentioned that is only ever so slightly different from what I said” XD
Failed_General@reddit
I do not believe that they are only slightly different, but let me repeat myself: I dont see why you in your own language shouldn't use whatever names you prefer. If there are historical native turkish names ofcourse it's expected that these will be used, no need to victimise yourself.
bruhmanbruuh@reddit
Turks call Alexandroupoli as Dedeagac , Komotini as Gumulcine and Xanthi as Iskece. It's their culture too , I don't see why I should have a problem with that.Besides ,there are thousands of Turkish speakers living in these cities .
Just like the French call it Marseille, while I , even when speaking English, always call it Massalia . Because I'm a Greek speaker and that's the Greek name for the city.
Unless it's an official document where you need to write the name in a specific way because of fucking bureaucracy. Besides ,never heard of nicknames?
Sea_Gap_6569@reddit
Thanks for your elaborate answer. What I find irrational is that the namesake dude is Italian and Italians call it İstanbul. We use a corrupted Greek term. Don’t misunderstand me, I’m not suggesting that you should change, I just find it irrational. I don’t think anyone except dumbest nationalists have concerns about irredentist intentions
Signal-Conference106@reddit
Haven't you already been told that he has nothing to do with Italy? This man was literally born in what is now Serbia and moved the capital of the empire to what is now Turkey.
pitogyros@reddit
The only Roman about Constantine was his citizenship.
His father was Illyrian his mother was Greek.
Kooky_Appeal_6554@reddit
once also called Stambul
Slow-Loan-9041@reddit
They’re so angry at this lmao
lukatsito@reddit
My non-balkan 2 cents. In Italy there are many cities that changed their name in the late 19th century after they found archeological sites nearby, for example a town named Traetto for centuries changed its name to Minturmo after the ancient city of Minturnae. Is this arbitrary? Yes, the town simply preferred an era to another. Does this offend any other people, nation, or even towns nearby? No.
Understand North Macedonia? Northern Greeks are as Macedonians as you are, you can't take the name just because you desperately need a reason to exist as a nation. Get over it or get back to Yugoslavia. Peace!
Pelagoniann@reddit
Around 60 to 70% of the population in N. Macedonia doesnt really give a fuck if someone calls it North or just Macedonia. The only people who care about that are the annoying nationalist patriots who end up getting a bulgarian passport so they can leave macedonia and live in EU. So much for the patriotism, lol.
MartinBP@reddit
Mostly yes. Some Turkish names were changed post-independence to the colloquial Bulgarian names both during the Tsardom and communism, however they were themselves imposed on older Bulgarian or Greek names.
Blagoevgrad used to be called Yukarı Cuma in Turkish and Gorna Dzhumaya in Bulgarian, before being renamed in honour of Dimitar Blagoev, a socialist politician.
By and large though they've been kept, Bulgarian place names are just too diverse and its part of the culture. In general, every city/town has gone through a handful of name changes throughout the millenia, from Thracian, Celtic, Norse etc. Most also had a Greek or Latin name at some point, then later a Turkish name. Some had Turkic names which aren't from Turkish but from Bulgar, Tatar, Cuman etc. n some cases the Greek and Turkish names are still used on their languages. Plovdiv has had over a dozen names, the oldest is Eumolpias (Thracian), you also have Pulpudeva (Thracian), Trimontium (Latin), Kendrisia (Thracian), Poneropolis (Greek), Philippopolis (Greek), Filibe (Turkish) etc. etc. This also applies to cities in Greek Thrace and Eastern Macedonia which often have separate names in Bulgarian, Greek and Turkish.
Sofia is Greek, but the earlier Serdica is Celtic.
Plovdiv is Thracian (from "Pulpudeva").
Varna is uncertain but possibly Norse.
Burgas is Greek (from "Pyrgos").
Ruse is also Norse, though disputed.
Some are obviously Slavic like Velijo Tarnovo or Stara Zagora. Some are Turkish like Kardzhali and Haskovo (from Hasköy, original name was Marsa). Some are still clearly Greek like Sozopol, Achtopol, Nesebar. Some are of completely unknown origin.
petahthehorseisheah@reddit
I'd prefer Bl*goevgrad return to its turkish name over a communist's.
Anyways, more cities:
Greek: Sofia, Yambol, Aytos, Nikopol
Turkish: Pazardzhik, Kyustendil (Latin for the first half), Kazanlak
Latin: Montana, Silistra, Troyan
Celtic: Vidin
Pen-Tool-1987@reddit
Blagoevgrad was a majority Macedonian town as was Dimitar Blagoev himself.
petahthehorseisheah@reddit
Not getting into the Macedonian thing, but 1. he was from there and that is enough of an explanation and 2. I still don't think that communists should have cities named after them.
Blagoevgrad -> the old one - Gorna Dzhumaya
Dimitrovgrad -> some kind of generic name like Maritsa
Velingrad -> Chepino, after one of the constituent villages, I would say the main one
The communist regime has rightfully been declared criminal, yet we haven't done enough about it. The red scummy ideology is plaguing our society to this very day and everything with almost exclusively ideological "value" done by them should be erased, remaining only as history.
Djunkienky00@reddit
Dude Bulgaria is being f*cked over by the EU and neoliberalism what tf does communism have to do with it.
petahthehorseisheah@reddit
The EU has not ever sentenced 2700 people to death, 2000 more for life and 5000 others, many of which were beaten and tortured to death, all in the span of five months, with many more sentenced to camps in the following years. Not even the Nuremberg trials, where the true perpetrators were convicted, were this harsh
The EU has not commited the deadliest terrorist attack in Bulgaria, killing 134 and wounding 500.
Pen-Tool-1987@reddit
Communism is dead buddy. This neo-nationalism coated in capitalism is destroying us really.
baxulax@reddit
Seem pretty changed though
hubbabubbameqershi@reddit
it's not a change is normal phonological transformation through millennia. The names entered through Greek language by Albanian population. There are countless of villages with Greek toponyms in Albania in places were I doubt any Greek set foot even to see what's up, because Greek language was an important administrative language here even when the area wasn't in control of any Greek colony or city state domination or even later during Roman empire were Greek was official.
baxulax@reddit
“The names entered through Greek language by Albanian population” looool lmaooo😂😂😂😂😂😂
vivaervis@reddit
Greek and Latin were what English today is for me and you. People needed to learn it to speak with other nationalities.
hubbabubbameqershi@reddit
Albanians and proto Albanians have been bilingual more than exclusively Albanian only. Even northern Albanians that fell under Latin influence later maintained the Greek language. It was mandatory in that system. Administration was latin, Cultural life Greek and the native language was Albanian.
Skullio1@reddit
That's due to linguistic adaptation and pronounciation over time, in this case the OP means direct name changes as a policy (usually nationalistic)
supafahd@reddit
Can I ask if the people's demographics and mentalities change after each river/ mountain border?
Kooky_Appeal_6554@reddit
Albanians differ gradly from which country they live.
Albanians from albania, it doesnt matter christian,, muslims, bektashi is different in behaviour, culture then albanians in kosovo, north macedonia.
Ujemegaz@reddit
You are shitting because in Kosovo and Macedonia are more patriotic, while in Albania we are not be because we take our freedom for granted. It is logical. Religion is hyoed by foreigners. We don't think mich about it.
Kooky_Appeal_6554@reddit
oh LOL bullshit...
Greek_Bodybuilder995@reddit
Except that in Himara we don't call our village Χίμαιρα. We use the name Χιμάρα.
NidzoMadjija@reddit
But for some reason they left Berat and kucove
I guess they never looked up the etymology
Skullio1@reddit
You should read the title again maybe
NidzoMadjija@reddit
You should read my comment again maybe
Atlandios000@reddit
Well I've searched only Thrace and Macedonia regions.
Many of the villages had Turkish / Slavic even Pomak and a few that I suspect are Albanian names.
They were changed in 1920s till 1950s I think.
c0sf-fkr@reddit
Bro...I come from Transylvania...my home town had a Dacian, a Roman, a Slavic, a German, a Hungarian, and a Romanian name...names change, who cares?...but if there are still significant minorities we also write the name of the town in all those languages
Janosh_Poha@reddit
I think it comes with war. I have done extensive research on the Greek Macedonia and there are areas of Greek Macedonia where Greeks never (at least during documented history) had a population. It was either Albanian or Slavic (weather you accept those Slavs as Macedonian or Bulgarian is another debate) and those people were forced out and replaced with Greek refugees from Asia Minor. Not only did the Greeks change the village name, but also went to the extent of destroying the grave stones, because they had Slavic writing. So changing the name of the village goes hand in hand with the ethnic cleansing of the people of that village. However, that comes with victory in war.
c0sf-fkr@reddit
Yeah, my point is that a significant amount of bad shit happened in the whole region. Some of it we did to others and some of it others did to us...and that statement is valid for every culture in the area.
Now we have a choice...we can live stuck in the past and hold pointless grudges...or try to build a better future for ourselves and be better. I choose the latter. Even though it can be frustrating sometimes, it's worth it in my view.
RoutineFan4492@reddit
Seems like it’s a good idea to have honest conversations about it, but even here on reddit where people are more civilised than generally on the internet, some comments are too defensive. Indeed the solution governments are using even today is ethic cleansing, that’s very sad. Let’s say here in Greece. The old albanian population (here since 13th century) has been fully assimilated in last 50 years, nobody can speak the language anymore. Some towns have been renamed , like my godfathers town: it was Kriekouki, now Erithres ( it’s a silly translation to Greek). The new albanian population is not fully accepted but getting assimilated very fast, I think probably second-generation is not able to speak albanian very well, and for me that’s very sad. It is also relevant now rather than 100 years ago, we are going to lose yet another possibility for cultural enrichment for everyone not just the minority.
Orthodox-Paradox@reddit
We mostly "erased" Turkish toponyms, by settling anatolian greeks in those areas during the 1910's-1930's "cordial" relationships between Greece and Turkey.
Most slavic toponyms either changed when Macedonia and Thrace were reorganised to townships by people choosing their new names or remained as they are.
BillGR7@reddit
Yes in Greece we say them in Greek
DeskNew1059@reddit
If you look at all those names, they have Albanian meanings. Why change them?
Vlora - Vlon - Valona
Durres, dy-rrah... etc. (Epidamus the greek/latin name, is obviously different)
Gjirokastra - Gjiro has Thracian (perhaps pelasgian) origins, and it is neither greek or Albanian. Etc....
Also, greeks have plenty of clearly non-greek names: Larisa (pelsagian), Arta (Albanian), etc...
pitogyros@reddit
Yesss ! Don’t forget
Greece > gre ci a > he who likes stars
Zeus > Zou Vsi > he who dreams on stars
Aphrodite > af ro deeet > she who dreams and eats the moon and star
Aristotle > ar qi tole > he who eats big burgers and dreams stars
🦅 🦅
Mustafa312@reddit
My guy everything you have mentioned is wrong.
Vlora/Valona is Greek. The word Aulon(channel) over time became Valona and finally Vlora through Albanian speakers but it’s not Albanian. The word Adriatic though is likely related to Proto-Albanian Udrjia (water) which evolved to Uje (water). Albania does have the word “ujane” which means lots of water and it’s possibly related to Ancient Greek Aulon.
Durres is Greek (originally Dyrrachium) but Epidamnos is related to Albania Demi (bull) as attested by their minted coin showing a cow and her calf. The word does have a cognate with Ancient Greek Damalos (calf) but the territory was under Taulantii Illyrians who let the Corinthian Greeks build a trade port.
Gjirokaster is a combination of two words Argyros (from Greek meaning silver) and Kaster (from Latin meaning castle).
DeskNew1059@reddit
Again.... you are wrong in all parts dumbass. (you seem to be a greek idiot) just regreguitation of Greek propaganda/talking point. Also, Dyrrachium comes from "Dy-rrah" the name.
"As a given name, Vlore is of Albanian origin and is derived from the name of the city itself. The etymology of the city name "Vlorë" is debated, but it is believed to be connected to ancient Illyrian roots."
https://www.wisdomlib.org/names/vlore
Mustafa312@reddit
You deleted your comment really quick. I’m not a self hating Albanian considering most of my posts are of the Albanian history, language, and culture. You are making a lot of information up that is not correct. And on top of that you’re offending people and swearing which makes us look bad.
Mustafa312@reddit
It’s almost as if that’s what I said for Epidamnos. Not sure why you had to paste the entirety of that text here considering it’s something we both agree on but whatever.
Also why are you offending me? I’m Albanian. As is the other Albanian who is calling you out on your logic. No where does it say that Dyrrachium is related to Albanian. Epidamnos was the more widely used name that is related to Albanian til Romans came and replaced it.
Also, just because a name is used by someone doesn’t mean that it originated in that language. Vlora is likely Greek. A foreign name is not uncommon amongst Albanians.
FloppyDiskDrives@reddit
Never change.
Fun_Selection8699@reddit
Delete this shit man you're embarrassing me
DeskNew1059@reddit
stfu....
sazma_2208@reddit
hahahahah
Careful-Evening-5187@reddit
There are many places in Greece that have Italian/Roman names. No need to crash out.
DifficultWill4@reddit
Tons actually. The name of our second largest city was created by some sloveno-croatian guy in 1836 and it stuck around. He changed the original name Marburg by taking the first part of the (original) german name Mar and adding -ibor, which is the reverse of what Germans did for the state of Brandenburg (Polabian name is Branibor). Before that, the Slovene name was Marpurk
Then after ww2 almost all german and christian names for cites, towns and villages got changed to Slovene ones by communists. Some were changed back after independence but the majority of them stuck.
Sveti Jurij got changed to Šentjur (which is actually how Slovenes called the town colloquially, though ironically Šent comes from german Sankt), Sveta Lucija became Lucija, Šentpeter na Krasu became Pivka, Guštanj became Ravne na Koroškem, Rajhenburg became Brestanica, etc.
The vast majority of the changed names were Saint places that either received a colloquial name (like Šent- or Š-), were stripped of the Saint part of the name or got changed all together to a common Slovene topographical name
Mucklord1453@reddit
Its sad and pitiable when other countries feel the need to radically change the names of thousand(s) year old cities and sites. Who do they think they are fooling?
I'm glad to see Albania keeping the Hellenic names in the south of their country.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Indeed. Greeks from Izmir and Aleppo shall come and take them.
EdgyNationMemes@reddit
What's the joke here?
Ujemegaz@reddit
No joke. Just the fact that Greeks traveled a lot.
Kooky_Appeal_6554@reddit
you should know also albanians live in egypt and syria since the time of ottoman empire,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians_in_Syria
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians_in_Egypt
Ujemegaz@reddit
Yes, but we did not bring them here during population exchange with Turkey 🤣
Legitimate-Glove5126@reddit
I’d love to know that too
Dull_Cucumber_3908@reddit
It's because you didn't had militaristic juntas neither civil wars. You were lucky in that aspect that you had communism.
Inside-Associate-729@reddit
Some of these are a bit dubious. e.g. there are multiple theories for how Gjirokastra got its name. Its completely possible that it actually does have illyrian roots and that its similarity to “silver castle” in greek is a coincidence.
Kitsooos@reddit
Wtf does "Βουθρωτόν" mean ?
Vojvoda__@reddit
The absolute majority were not. A small number of toponyms were indeed changed by the state, some, of course, changed naturally with the arrival of new populations throughout the centuries. However, speaking of toponyms of foreign origin, there are many in Serbia: Illyrian, Celtic, Roman, and other Paleo-Balkan ones, as well as Turkish, Hungarian, and even German, etc. It is very fortunate that Serbia has never implemented a policy of mass renaming of places. Rather, those were specific, isolated cases.
mala_neveshta@reddit
Zrenjanin su ukenjali
belabacsijolvan@reddit
Yeah, did you?
MendiWTF@reddit
Because someone didn't have their own writing system means they didn't exist? We use the latin alphabet nowadays, does that mean that we dont exist as anything else than Latin. The logical smart thing to do is to use other peoples knowledges and to evolve it. Together we form humanity. Albanians, greeks, slavs, turks, dacians, thracians and so on don't matter as much as we think. We are human first ,before the place where you or your parents were born.
the_lonely_creeper@reddit
Some, only.
Which is a shame, honestly.
According_Tax8778@reddit
Bold of you to assume other Balkan countries are as nonchalant as Albania.