“Firing” a Student
Posted by Straight-Baseball918@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 81 comments
I’m just wondering if anyone has experience or advice on firing a student as a CFI.
For some background, I’ve been a CFI for about a year, have a 100% student pass rate currently, and have had nothing but great students until now. This one, however, constantly cancels lessons, makes a lot of excuses, and my biggest problem is that he’s straight up mean to me and other people at the airport frequently but laughs everything off and acts like it’s all a joke. This happens during lessons too, where I’m emphasize how important something is and he’ll just laugh and make a joke like he didn’t just try to kill me. I normally try to keep my lessons fun but when a student does something dangerous I put on my serious voice and correct the action immediately. The last time this happened he got very upset and made a comment after the flight along the lines of “I could’ve had a good flight today if my CFI didn’t have such a bad attitude”. I’m wondering what my options are going forward because he’s pre-solo but has some connections to higher-ups at the school so I feel like I can’t just tell him he’s done. I’m not sure he even wants to be a pilot or if he just thinks he’ll make a lot of money so it’s the thing to do. Anyone been in a similar situation or have advice?
Ok-Selection4206@reddit
Just refuse to work with him...done.
Ok_Designer7625@reddit
Yeah the kid is pre-solo and has entitlement and an ego like that? Tell him he doesn’t get to solo until he fixes his hazardous attitudes. Let his “higher up” connections know how he’s acting.
egged_woodhouse@reddit
It's your license and certification on the line. Document everything, every incident of hazardous attitudes. Make a timeline of them, cancellations, and flights. It's hard but having documentation of their behaviour helps. I had to fire a student and it was a combo of my timeline and consistent communication with my program manager. Two others brought complaints against me because I had corrected them for actions taken. All those times it was treated seriously and in the end I was able to get that one student off my list and the other two had complaints dismissed.
DrReginaldWexley@reddit
extensive trading of flight instruction is also a hazing period to keep the clowns out of our secret society?
We do have a coded language, matching uniforms, and pseudo-military hierarchy.
I don’t always look down on people…. Wait yes I do and it’s from flight level two zero or higher Stay the Captain my friend !
EmployRoyal2528@reddit
he's a sociopath, dump him, if he hasn't had a flight physical, help him set up one with an AME and let the AME know in advance the concerns. Of course, it goes without saying, send him to an actual ame not one of the criminal ones that cater to the ramp trash.
Interesting_Fig3973@reddit
Refuse to train him. He definitely doesn’t need to ever fly a plane.
KittyHawk_media@reddit
If he is connected to “hire ups” at your school talk to them about your concerns and let them know you are not comfortable teaching this guy. If he has the personality issues that you described, they will likely already expect to hear this. He may have been dropped on their lap by their own “connections”. Regardless, you need to take control and let this guy understand, in no uncertain terms, the instructor-student control dynamic. Point out specific past behaviors that are not conducive to this dynamic and let him know that it won’t be tolerated. If it happens again, end the lesson, land and fire him as a student. You must establish a hard line with someone like this and show dominant control. That is what he is attempting to do to you. He is trying to dominate the entire situation with gas lighting and trying making to make you feel bad for criticizing him. That’s how a narcissist takes control over people. You must call him out on it and you must establish rules, that if broken, result in you not working with him any more. He will likely test you to see if you follow through if you have that conversation. If he breaks the rules and he then talks you into giving him another chance, he wins and re-establishes control in his mind. It’s all a game for weird insecure dudes. I’ve hired and fired hundreds of pilots over the years. I know the type. If you can just get rid of him as a student you will be saving yourself a lot of drama and stress.
Equivalent_Shock1122@reddit
100% Fire the student. Tell him, “I don’t feel safe with you. I will not fly with you.”
ConnorDGibson123@reddit
I would recommend giving him the “come to Jesus” talk where you talk about where you call him out on that’s stuff I’ve had to do it many of times, I’m going be honest it’s easier after the student fucks something up, if he cancels for a dumb reason or after a bad flight, they take that a lot more then, Ope were about to go up and fly, oh by the way take this more seriously and if it doesn’t get better give him the the burnt out CFI who doesn’t give a shit anymore and he’s either going to fix his attitude or fly until he runs out of money (I’m the burnt out CFI where students go, usually it’s an outside issue or frustration at the school, I usually tell the students I hate the school just as much as they do and I’m on there side for everything and I want the best for them and I’ll deal with the school BS, or tell them to take a week off and we’ll get back into the spin of things for a breath of fresh air because flying 5 days a week for months sucks) also flight training doesn’t have to be fun, make it fun when it should, I have a reputation at my school for taking student to the strip in Vegas in commercial because flying should be fun but when you are covering a serious topic don’t let them goof it off, I’ve been in a plane crash where the engine died, I’m only here because of that training, I empathize that with my students, if they mess up anything when it comes to emergencies it’s a long debrief. I have a friend who every time I rant about a student his answer is always just call them out, I know it’s a lot easier than done, but it has been night and day of difference before and after I crashed out on my students about there BS.
BigBlackAnkle637@reddit
I worked at a part 141 school with a lot of students. I had 5 students over the course of a year that I had to say no to. One of which didn’t know how to read. No joke. Another one had the exact same attitude as you are describing and had 3 or 4 instructors before me, all before their first solo. I really did try my best with them, but they refused constructive criticism at every turn. at one point the student landed and was about to go off of the runway because they wouldn’t give up controls.
Aviation is not for anyone that refuses to learn from their mistakes. I would debrief each lesson very carefully, kindly, but also firmly when they make major mistakes. DOCUMENT EVERYTHING. After the lesson that the student almost ran off the runway, I chewed them out for twenty minutes pointing out their poor attitude, and how they’ll never learn if they keep the same attitude.
At the end of the day, you are signing off the student. It’s your certificate. Instructing is a great thing, but it’s also a liability. A major one at that. Stand your ground, be professional, don’t just be a dick to them. Try to point them in the right direction. If they don’t wanna learn, kick em off your schedule.
Tasty_Impression_959@reddit
Document the factual difficulties you are experiencing with this student and your professional opinion on how his emotional maturity during training has created a personality conflict, that is disruptive in nature to the training the school is providing. If a student has the right to request a flight instructor change, so does an instructor who is experiencing a conflict with a student of this nature. This student is a prime example of pilots that create a toxic cockpit environment. If he disrespects you as such, imagine what he will do to a new aspiring pilot in the future.
Maxs027@reddit
I’d personally fire him. Never forget that the student works for YOU!
rotardy@reddit
Yeah I had this one asshole that crashed an airplane, sued everyone at the school and then when the school insurance settled wanted to resume training. 😂 umm… nope
Flimsy-Ad-858@reddit
We had one similar to that. Flew without a tailwheel endorsement (his own plane), crashed, tried to blame instructor, then asked instructor to backdate endorsement to make flight legal. This was over text which was hilarious because the FAA took one look and said okay yeah we see what's happening here. Then this dude comes back and tries to finish his training with us.
rotardy@reddit
Some people….
FiberApproach2783@reddit
Wtf💀 The audacity to not even go to a different school after that
ReadyplayerParzival1@reddit
If he is actually trying to get a certificate you need to sit him down and talk about his dangerous failure. Explain how pilots have a higher degree of care they have to uphold when operating aircraft. If he still wants to fly, refuse to endorse, you can use his behavior as a reason. One of the hazardous attitudes is invulnerability and also macho.
If none of that works, just tell him you won’t fly with him again, you have the right not to work with a client.
AAAWAC@reddit
I do the same thing, but also go as far as any endorsements already signed I'd go in and write a statement underneath stating the endorsement is no longer valid. Part of endorsing someone is competency and safety and if you no longer believe they are you are almost required to invalidate endorsements.
I'd also stop flying immediately and do ground lessons only until the attitude was fixed.
nightlanding@reddit
I had one I could not get along with. I just told him we were not working well together and we would both be happier if he flew with someone else.
HumbleSiPilot77@reddit
You can drop him. Speak to your chief or school owner and explain your concerns. This guy already sounds like he's a ticking time bomb. Out of the 25 some students I trained to certain cert level in my tenure, I dropped one at a 141 outfit where he wasn't paying attention to ATC instructions and almost put us in a position where there would have been cert action against both of us.
canuck791@reddit
It's a two way contract. If he's being an ass and not taking it seriously, then yeah dump him.
Acrobatic_Recipe7837@reddit
You don’t “fire” students since they are hiring you and paying your salary. You can quit students however, and the only means of doing that is to tell them.
derdubb@reddit
Tell him how it is. Take this seriously and if you don’t I will no longer be your cfi and you can find another school. This is serious business and if you don’t take it seriously you will die.
Sometimes you gotta be that guy.
Healthy-Sort-7293@reddit
I had to drop a guy who took an airplane out without anyone knowing and proceeded to fly around a high rise office building so low and so close that some could read the N number and describe the pilot. That was a fun call with the FAA. Buh bye
I_love_my_fish_@reddit
You’re PIC, you have final decision on the go/no-go. Also every cancellation less than 24 hours in advance (or whatever the company minimum is, whichever is higher) not weather or maintenance related charge him the full amount of your time.
Then just refuse to sign him off for jack shit until he either changes instructors or fixes his attitude. We don’t need people in the air that’ll just kill themselves
Texpress22@reddit
Sounds like it’s time to adjust your teaching style a bit. Not every flight should be “fun” as you mentioned. Sometimes they’re miserable and hard work but still a skill still needs to be learned.
SavingsPirate4495@reddit
Do you have a lesson plan sheet for EVERY flight that outlines what was planned, what was briefed, what the student did well, where they were substandard, what was debriefed, and what was expected/planned for next lesson?
Without documentation, it will be tough convincing “ higher ups”.
When I instructed almost 25 years ago, that is what was required for EVERY student for EVERY lesson. It saved our school’s ass when a student brought in an attorney in the hopes of proving we were wasting his money and sue us for it. Truth was, he was the shittiest pilot to ever walk this planet and the documentation proved it.
The attorney read almost all of a 3” binder (of three), gently closed it, stood up, shook our hand, apologized for wasting our time, and walked out with student pilot Master of Disaster.
It’s a TOTAL pain in the ass, but it’s one thing, among many, that can save YOUR ass. Good luck!
OverheatingComputer@reddit
I had to have this conversation with a student, I told them we were going down to fewer training sessions each week until he could prove he actually wanted to be there. Still didn’t really improve so went down to once a week, they transferred him to another CFI and eventually left the program all together. I just definitely wouldn’t put ANY extra time or energy into them.
keenly_disinterested@reddit
The way I deal with cancellations is to backtrack on the training. I tell students if they don't fly frequently enough we have to go back over previous lessons to avoid loss of learning. This will add considerably to the $time$ needed to complete training. As far as the attitude, you simply make it clear it's either your way or the highway.
21MPH21@reddit
Sounds like a great TMAAT answer
You're flying with someone with a dangerous attitude, inability to learn, unsafe skills.
So you sat him down and did the right thing (and that resulted in ... whatever it becomes)
Or
You shrugged and said "I'm not strong enough to make a decision this important/critical"
Hmmm
HeyBroUgud@reddit
Burn him up, you want nothing to do with this student as he is exemplifying extremely dangerous behaviors that will probably lead to an accident down the road. Best to not have your name anywhere near his record.
SkyhawkPilot@reddit
Talk to your Chief Pilot. This is what they’re there for.
Straight-Baseball918@reddit (OP)
We don’t exactly have one… we’re a pretty small school and the person who was our “chief pilot” left for the military and we don’t have another person with enough experience to take over
SupraJames@reddit
Sorry to hear that, Chief Pilot
KeyOfGSharp@reddit
All hail the chief
Straight-Baseball918@reddit (OP)
If I’m the Chief Pilot I’d love to see the raise to match the title 🫠
McCheesing@reddit
Then charge the dude the chief pilot rate. If he’s gonna be a dick, at least make him pay for it. Might end up scaring him away 🤷🏼♂️
Noobtastic14@reddit
💀
mr_boost@reddit
Mint
GenericName1442@reddit
I legit spit my drink out at that reply.
BarnackBro1914@reddit
Whoever the "connections to higher ups at the school" are, give them a heads-up before you do anything. Give them a chance to ask questions, and hear your side of the story; they will appreciate you letting them know and this will get those higher-ups in your corner if things should get ugly.
Based on what you wrote, cut this person loose. It sounds like they have some growing-up to do, and you might just be saving lives.
trainthebrain23@reddit
Then there’s nobody to stop you from refusing to fly with this student.
iceman_andre@reddit
I guess you are the chief now
ltcterry@reddit
You have “higher ups.” Said so yourself. Talk to them.
I’ve passed one student on to someone else. With full transparency for everyone.
Kooky_Toe5629@reddit
I had two students that were were never gonna make it as a pilot. One never listened to anything I had to say teaching in the airplane or on the ground. I figured maybe it was my teaching techniques so I told him to find another instructor. They dropped out shortly thereafter. The other student had been with with 4 different instructors and was passed on to me. This student was scared to death to fly. This person would scream in terror anytime the airplane was in any conditions other than straight and level. This student would grip the controls and freeze, regardless of what we were doing. After 20 hours of flight training I threw in the towel. They were gonna kill me, or someone else. I told them they were not cut out to fly. I told them I, or no one from our flight school would fly with them anymore. They seemed relieved. I later found out this student was pressured by family to learn to fly. They were never interested in flying.
nolaflygirl@reddit
I'm surprised you made it through 20 hrs.! What a dangerous & uneasy scenario for you every time you went up!
I had a newly certificated PPL freeze up on me on final, who was taking me up as his 1st "passenger". We were students at the same Part 61, but I was STILL a student! Luckily, he took his hands OFF the yoke vs. freezing ON the yoke! The plane was trimmed out, so we were ok for the moment. But he proceeded to light up a cigarette, declaring that he couldn't land the plane! Problem: As a student pilot, I had never landed from the right seat!
Fortunately, I was near my checkride & had more hrs in the 172 than he. So my gut & training kicked in, I took hold of the yoke on my side, & made a beautiful landing!
I told him -- a mature man in his late 40s w/ wife & kids (I was 31) -- to get w/ our CFI & take more lessons. I also told our CFI about the incident & asked him to give me right seat instruction bc I didn't want that landing to be a fluke!
Kooky_Toe5629@reddit
Yeah I never looked forward to flying with the person and it was stressful. I was determined to give it my best shot but it didn't work out which was a good thing. Jeez thats scary if a private pilot cant land the airplane!
radioswede@reddit
Some people deal with stressful situations, including (and sometimes especially) dangerous ones, with humor to defuse their emotions. Some people use humor do deflect feelings of guilt, inadequacy, or shame. Sometimes it's really hard to tell the difference, and it does matter in shaping safe pilots. I haven't spoken to your student, but it could be that they're taking the dangerous things very seriously and just hiding it with humor. Or they aren't.
Not every personality of student is going to mesh well with every personality of instructor, but you are the one who's job it is to figure this out. Now, it may be that the best way to teach this student is to find them a different instructor. Sometimes that's what's best for everybody, and I usually recommend that students use at least 2 instructors for their PPL and at least 3 for their CPL, because it helps close gaps that can go completely undetected by the assumptions and complacency that comes with familiarity. But it may also be that the best thing for you both is that you figure out how to communicate with this student. An adult conversation about that very topic might be a good start, as long as you avoid making the student feel like they're doing something wrong, or are a bad person, as that might just trigger that same humor response. Put the emphasis on your need to understand.
"Hey, it's my job to teach you what you need to know to be a safe pilot, and I'm having some trouble interpreting your reactions to certain things. They're not wrong, I just want to go through a couple examples and hear your thoughts on what you were feeling and thinking at the time."
nolaflygirl@reddit
Good advice all around! I was fortunate to work pt-time at my Part 61 school while working on my PPL, etc. Bc of that, I got to fly w/ the other CFIs when my main CFI was unavailable, & also got to fly w/ them on ferry flights, etc. That enabled me to learn from them ALL!! In fact, the one who gave me a tip about landing when I was learning how, wasn't even my regular CFI! It's good to fly w/ more than one CFI.
AHOUSE145@reddit
Sometimes you have have those hard conversations and tell them that this may not be for them. As far as being mean in the plane ive had a student snap at me and get pretty nasty for taking controls because they were about to stall the plane on departure. I kept controls and told tower we'd like to return for landing. There was a long talk after we landed.
nolaflygirl@reddit
Did you keep flying w/ this student, or did the long talk result in you dropping him?
OriginalJayVee@reddit
No, you couldn’t have. You probably would have been a lawn dart. Lawn darts don’t need instruction, all they need is gravity. If you want to be a lawn dart, that’s your business. If you want to be a pilot, then we have something to talk about. Think it over and call me when you decide which one you want to be!
nolaflygirl@reddit
Priceless response!
RedNeckSharkBitten@reddit
I got rid of two students. First one had a grandfather that flew in World War One and wanted his grandson to learn. He was only along for the ride and wasn’t picking anything up. Took in some extra altitude on the way to the practice area and did a full session of rough stall training. Got in a few spin situations as well. Got him back on the ground and never saw him again. The second decided to go buzz his girlfriend on his first solo. Showed him the door as soon as he got back.
nolaflygirl@reddit
LOVE how you took care of business re both of these students!
Given__To__Fly@reddit
The second he said the comment about "I would have had a good flight if my CFI had a better attitude" I would have told him to fly with someone else. "You want someone with a better attitude? No problem. Go find someone. That's the last flight we're doing together".
nolaflygirl@reddit
EXACTLY!! PERFECT RESPONSE!!
Old_Equivalent6494@reddit
Your not alone in this ! Many CFIs have been through the same experience. For your safety and sanity have a talk with them. I am assuming this student is an adult and you can have a mature conversation.
Him having connections to higher ups doesn’t necessarily make this easy on your part I’m sure! However you won’t solo a student who’s not ready and behaves in that manner. If neither CFI is willing too endorse and take them on then so be it 😂
wandering-audi@reddit
What are the reasons for canceling? Obviously weather is one and usually you’ll make that decision together. I’ve had to skip a handful and lessons over time cause I’m sick/ not feeling up to flying. But the 2 schools I’ve trained at both will fine the student if they just cancel cause they don’t want to go. One was a flat $80 I think and the other is either 25 or 50% of the cost of the time you had booked. Regardless he obviously doesn’t care and he shouldn’t be taking up your time and schedule. Hope this is resolved soon. Maybe you can talk to whatever these higher ups are. Even if there isn’t a chief currently there must be some kind of management or people in charge
Clairsentient@reddit
Not a CFI, but I am a educator/trainer in a different discipline. We have let go of students before just based off cancellations and poor attendance. Perhaps you could frame it to the higher-ups with the perspective that you are also doing the student a favor: By not continuing to waste his time and money on something that he clearly doesn't take seriously and is likely not going to get anywhere with.
fedepalomares@reddit
Yes. Just think about him breaking an airplane when flying solo or injuring himself or someone else because no one grounded him when it was the right time. In that case as CFI you will be the first one to be asked for explanations. Now you would not mind about higher-ups and so when taking the decision 😉
mwbbrown@reddit
I'm not even a pilot but this guy is going to kill you while "just being funny"
TravelerMSY@reddit
Start with the 100% penalty for cancellations within x hours.
ForeignTax8837@reddit
Sounds like something out of "CFI" the book. Lol. Sit him down and tell him that you don't think this is what he's made for and that if he disagrees then he should find an instructor that's better suited to his learning style.
RecentAmbition3081@reddit
Sounds like an entitled a hole
RecentAmbition3081@reddit
Tell him to piss off. You aren’t obligated to fly him. Stop be all wishy washy and can him.
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
Your post makes it clear that you need to tell him you're done. The fact that he has connections that make you hesitate rings alarm bells. You could go to the higher ups first and say it's not working out if you want but it's very clear you need to not be the student's instructor.
Darth_Hamburger@reddit
Let go of a student once because the vibes were off. Had a meeting with him to try to clear the air and it didn’t put me at ease at all. Wasn’t a bad pilot, just a strange guy who put me on edge too often.
bdc41@reddit
Had a girlfriend that would cry every time I would try and break up with her. After that I state “It’s not working out, so we need to move on”. Works for every phase of life since then. Always better to rip the bandaid off.
educated_farts@reddit
Safety should be the number one priority here. If he can't be safe, fire him.
Sounds like he has a massive ego problem, and I would hate to share a cockpit with him.
Good luck!
JSJackson313MI@reddit
I don't even know that you need to get a Chief Pilot or whatever passes for one involved.
Becoming a licensed pilot is a serious, professional endeavor, even if you don't intend to use it as a profession.
Most CFI allow one missed session, as life happens, and if it is handled professionally, no big deal. He's had multiple misses and has a poor attitude, and worse, he is public with his attitude.
Drop him as a student, no matter his "connections." It isn't worth your life, and a mistake from an asshole piloting an aircraft can absolutely end your life.
The_Daviator@reddit
Nobody can force you to fly with anyone you don’t want to or endorse anyone you don’t want to. Full stop. Tell him that if he wishes to continue training he’ll have to do so with a different CFI.
BChips71@reddit
Tell him you think he may have a better learning experience with a different CFI. I've fired plenty of students.
PLIKITYPLAK@reddit
I would have fired the student on frequent cancellations alone. I did that to a student when I was a CFI.
PhilRubdiez@reddit
Try sitting down with him and letting him know his behavior is inappropriate. It’s not professional (if he’s aiming for a commercial cert) and dangerous, regardless. We’re also on the same team when it comes to safety, so don’t be going around talking shit about someone who might just help his career or safety. If he can’t accept responsibility and take this training with the gravity that it requires, you’ll have to move on from him.
If he seems receptive to this talk, maybe work on modeling good behavior. In the military, we used to say that our junior Marines were reflections of our leadership. Maybe take a few looks inside to see if maybe you are modeling bad behaviors. Not saying that’s the case, but I’ve personally caught myself slipping a few times. It’s an awfully fine line between keeping it light and gaffing it off.
In any outcome, if he’s a dick about it or doesn’t change his tune, refuse to fly with him. If he’s not super dangerous or a flaming asshat, provide him with a few other places he might go.
Nearly_Pointless@reddit
This is as good of advice as one could get. It’ll be abundantly clear if he is open to constructive feedback and ideas not, right there tell him to find another instructor.
It only takes once to die. There is no student worth your reputation, let alone your life.
makgross@reddit
Well, if that ain’t an obvious application of “projection….”
You need a discussion of expectations. Should have done that a while ago, but late is far better than never.
Students occasionally need the “come to Jesus” talk. That only means “firing” if it doesn’t work. It is not reasonable to expect that all flights are good, and it is never the instructor’s fault if it isn’t.
EliteEthos@reddit
I haven’t had to but I’ve helped other CFIs do it. DM me is you’d like my help.
mild-blue-yonder@reddit
Pawn him off on the newest CFI.
Head_Big3036@reddit
I’d have a conversation with your Cheif pilot about the guy.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I’m just wondering if anyone has experience or advice on firing a student as a CFI.
For some background, I’ve been a CFI for about a year, have a 100% student pass rate currently, and have had nothing but great students until now. This one, however, constantly cancels lessons, makes a lot of excuses, and my biggest problem is that he’s straight up mean to me and other people at the airport frequently but laughs everything off and acts like it’s all a joke. This happens during lessons too, where I’m emphasize how important something is and he’ll just laugh and make a joke like he didn’t just try to kill me. I normally try to keep my lessons fun but when a student does something dangerous I put on my serious voice and correct the action immediately. The last time this happened he got very upset and made a comment after the flight along the lines of “I could’ve had a good flight today if my CFI didn’t have such a bad attitude”. I’m wondering what my options are going forward because he’s pre-solo but has some connections to higher-ups at the school so I feel like I can’t just tell him he’s done. I’m not sure he even wants to be a pilot or if he just thinks he’ll make a lot of money so it’s the thing to do. Anyone been in a similar situation or have advice?
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