Animosity towards Linux
Posted by ne0n008@reddit | linux | View on Reddit | 241 comments
Hello all!
I have a dual boot between Windows 10 and Debian 13(KDE). I had this config for the past 6 months and I found out that I'm using Linux more and more. I use Windows only for specific apps (CAD) now but I found out that, outside of these specific cases, Linux has more benefits than Windows, not mention performance. This is my own opinion.
When I talk to other people about Linux, there is such repulsiveness which I find hard to believe. I'm not an extrovert who will talk unprovoked, so every dialogue about Linux was within the context of the said dialogue and with people who are tech savvy. The repulsiveness might be a strong word, but people I talk to seem suddenly disinterested when I mention Linux, and either change topic or stay disengaged from the conversation.
They present me with problems and in one of the solutions I provide, I explain that Linux might also be a viable option as their use case doesn't require dependency on Windows. That is the moment they disengage, sometimes pretty obviously.
Since you don't know me, I can't ask what am I doing wrong as this would require a lengthy dialogue. Instead, I am asking what are your experiences and have you ever asked a person why such behavior?
Is it fear of unknown, fear of leaving the "safe zone", lack of knowledge or something completely different?
I'm asking because I see people struggle with Windows but refuse to accept an easier solution. And when I recommend Linux, it's when all or most of my suggestions are exhausted or Linux is blatantly a better option. I find this behavior confusing and, depending on a reaction, even disrespectful.
Thoughts?
Slackeee_@reddit
Your problem lies right there. In my experience people who deem themselves to be "tech savvy" when it comes to computers usually aren't really "tech" savvy, but "Windows" savvy. If they try Linux they usually give up pretty fast because to many of them Linux shows that they aren't actually that good with computers, but "just" with Windows. They try to use Linux like they would have used Windows instead of treating it like a different OS, fail in the process because of that, and then have to blame Linux for it in order to keep their "tech savvy" badge.
Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with being good with Windows if Windows provides all the tools you need.
lazyboy76@reddit
One time, I've overheard my colleagues mention that linux is an OS for developers.
I just leave them be, even though i know that linux is just the kernel, and it's supposed to call gnu/Linux, also it's not just about one OS, it's many OS, some of them are for casual users, some for savvy folks... Too many things to explain and I don't want to bother them.
Swaaeeg@reddit
Theres someone on the r/linuxsucks subreddit that genuinly believes you need a CS degree to use linux.
Fickle_Ad_640@reddit
Haha this one is a conventionally funny gnu joke, well done
TheOGDoomer@reddit
Eh, and on the other hand, many people on Linux subs claiming to be tech savvy say a lot of dumb shit when it comes to technology in general, and therefore are just Linux savvy, as you put it.
I think you initially noticed the problem correctly, but came to the wrong conclusion. People who are tech savvy, or even just claim to be, don't care to be told to just dump their entire OS and install a completely different one for, say, some minor problem, like an issue with their graphics card, or some software not working as intended, or not getting the performance their computer once did get, etc. There are far, far, FAR more solutions than just "wipe your drive and install Linux instead bro." There's also a great chance they already know about Linux, and other OSes, if they genuinely are tech savvy, so of course they're going to get annoyed if you suggest it.
I mean, it's no different from someone having an issue with their iPhone, and there being a solution, but someone comes along and says "well yeah, iPhone is crap, why not try switching to Android instead?" You'll be met with the same animosity OP is describing in their post. It's obnoxious to the person just wanting a solution that already exists on their platform they rely on.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
Makes sense, thanks for your answer.
ExistingSelection180@reddit
I use GStarCad for CAD and a VM with Windows 11 for Revit.
pppjurac@reddit
Servus. Old grey CAM/CAD guy here.
I would not worry too much, CAD/CAM/CAE was never really a Linux thing. Just look at Windows like different colored desk bench where you prepare and do your work. Nothing less, nothing more.
Also don't push your opinion on others, they will take offense. See you might be passionate about computing and Linux, but they might not be and look at computer , OS and software suites as necessary tool/evil to work with.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
I found out that I'm having much less stress and better work time while I'm in Linux. I want to share that with others, without forcing anything on anyone. I always provide multiple solutions about the issue in question, from which one of them is Linux. I'm not expecting any action on this suggestion, but the reaction I get mentioning this, surprises me. And all that while staying within the context of a conversation.
I don't care which OS people use and Windows 11 looks kinda nice without the forced stuff, but if someone is struggling with their OS, changing it is a valid suggestion. In my opinion, at least.
Melodic_Respond6011@reddit
You're not being fair. You don't suggest people to change to windows when the other person struggling with Linux.
Please just admit that you are a Linux cultist.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
Now this is funny. If the person is struggling with Linux, I would DEFINITELY recommend something else: there's iOS also and Windows wouldn't have been my first choice because of the state it is in right now. As a matter of fact, I discouraged people from installing Linux that I have seen not having the knowledge or patience for tinkering with it.
Melodic_Respond6011@reddit
iOS? For alternative to windows or Linux? Now it's clear why people uninterested, lol.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
It's not likely that both Windows or Linux won't work for a system, especially considering the variety of Linux distros, but if that is the case, what is the alternative?
I recommend iOS because if I see a person is not tech savvy and is used to official manufacturer support, Linux is definitely not for them.
Melodic_Respond6011@reddit
U clearly don't know what you're talking about. You don't even know what iOS is.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
And you don't understand what I'm talking about.
Melodic_Respond6011@reddit
Iff course I do, even when you train of thought switch lanes from PC to Apple hardware, which is clearly shows your lack of understanding on both ecosystem. Hell you don't even know the difference between macOS and iOS.
The audacity to propose something you don't even know.
Cyberkanye2077@reddit
Its probably more so that its known linux users dont shut up about linux. We sound like meg from family guy. No ones likes meg.
kaloric@reddit
There will ALWAYS be Micro$oft fanboys, this is just how they are.
They're invariably pretty unskilled and probably jealous that they're limited. They thought their MC$E/MCP certifications were where it's at, but deep down, I think they've always known they're mostly trained in marketing and are very much second-class sysadmins in a crappy ecosystem, and they are simply lacking.
They also seem to be extremely paranoid that their careers are in jeopardy. More often than not, they try to consolidate their roles to themselves and consolidate the ecosystem to only their own. I don't know if it's insecurity, what the sales pitch tech certs trained them to do, or they realize that most end users hate Windows and the job security is all in how bad it is, and there would be no need for so many M$ server & desktop support techs in an enterprise environment if it wasn't such unreliable garbage. The ratio of servers or endpoints to techs is much higher with any other current ecosystem, even as bad as Macs are, they're nowhere near as flaky as Windows systems.
I say this as someone who prefers Linux, but had been a sysadmin for servers and managed hundreds of endpoints for M$, Mac, and Linux for a couple of decades.
I'm pursuing something else entirely, after I got fed-up with the Windows consolidation at an enterprise-sized institution. My sysadmin roles were being progressively stripped away as they moved towards Azure (cloud-based shit), leaving me with less actually interesting work, and a lot more tedious endpoint support when the Azure "cloud clicker" admins did stupid things or the Windows endpoints (or the end users) fucked-up, as they often do. They shut-out Linux servers & endpoints altogether, no more custom management like my team had been doing. Mac endpoint management was dumbed-down to the Casper/JAMF basics. And the cloud-clickers were limited to official, built packages bundled for JAMF deployment, none of the JAMF admins knew any scripting and they were bad at creating packages. Everything was dumbed-down.
There's job security for Windows twits, especially the Micro$oft certified people who are in management roles. My coworkers seem to be kind of unhappy, for the usual reasons. "Windows 10 will be our LAST OS EVER!"...now everyone has to upgrade to Windows 11, and it apparently went as one would expect. There's no more server management, much less Active Directory configuration (if any at all).
And worst of all, they went from extremely high cloud storage quotas for users (Google & M$ were in a race to offer the most, both went "unlimited storage" for a little while before realizing that was untenable), and it being practically free to have unlimited users, to Micro$oft reneging on its "generosity" just a few years after the fucking morons in management went all-in with the Azure & cloud-based stuff, got rid of millions of dollars' worth of on-prem servers & related infrastructure, and then of course M$ started charging through the nose for licensing and cut way back on the storage once they had nearly complete vendor lock-in.
Who could have ever guessed M$ would do something sleazy like that? So now my former coworkers are having to assist end users with getting under their new lower quotas, and tens of thousands of alumni are losing their "lifetime" email accounts and are very unhappy about it.
If anyone had listened to my concerns or considered the opinions of frustrated end users, many of whom were researchers who needed custom Linux support, none of those stupid complications would be happening. They wouldn't have a higher annual budget to provide substantially less in the way of services. Windows "system administration" is really just about being the best self-licking ice cream cone one can possibly be.
I'm so glad I'm not dealing with any of that, and I have no desire to be a cloud-clicker make believe sysadmin, I got out rather than trying to move-up, I could see exactly where that was heading.
This is more of a gloat than a rant.
Linux can be an excellent solution for desktop end users. The main thing is that it doesn't change completely every few years to justify the planned obsolescence profit motive of Windows or Apple, where they feel compelled to radically change many elements so it's "new."
I'm on the most recent Kubuntu LTS, the look and feel is almost exactly how I had my desktop set-up almost 20 years ago on Dapper. I've been deliberately set-up like this on my primary desktop for a genuine "end user" experience, minimal fiddle-fucking around to get it to function, something that "just works" and that I use to gauge ease of migration to new hardware & to newer releases. There are occasional missteps on releases, but over the years, it's been far less of a time investment than any Windows boxes I've had, except for maybe WinNT 4 and Win 2k. But those systems went obsolete long ago.
Linux is really more about flexibility & freedom, which is the antithesis to what M$ and Apple have constructed their ecosystems around.. People who want to invest a little time to learn can have a system that does what they need it to, performs well on old hardware, and has no subscriptions required to enjoy basic functionality.
Linux provides an ability to own & manage your data, by having a reliable server OS on your own hardware in your own data center, with no licensing costs or quotas besides the cost of the drives you install. You can keep Google, Microsoft, Meta, and others from technically having the ability to snoop through your data, appropriate it for their own uses, "collect usage information," or use it for LLM AI training.
I mean, you can do all those things if you want, I use GDrive for a lot of stuff myself, but an on-prem Linux server can be operated inexpensively, and the data control & security is as robust as the sysadmin is competent & paranoid. There's no risk of losing access to everything you have if there's a cloud outage.
Nah, I didn't evangelize about it at every turn at work. I'd just toss it out as an option if someone seemed to have needs that Windows or Mac weren't adequately meeting, and tried to keep the doors open to avoid vendor lock-in and the pain that inevitably comes with entrusting your infrastructure needs to greedy corporations.
DirectorDirect1569@reddit
"There will ALWAYS be Micro$oft fanboys, this is just how they are."
Microsoft fanboys don't exists. We can't say the same thing about lots of mac and linux users.
I have never seen someone saying "switch to windows".
kaloric@reddit
Sounds like you never worked in IT, especially back when the MCSE salesman certifications were being hyped. Windows was the answer to everything, even though zero day vulnerabilities were just a constant issue and every other server OS had security dialed in. Their game is to convince OEMs to install Windows on almost every PC, and use trade show work and "certified professionals" to sell solutions for the enterprise and have more lock-in for the endpoints.
Think about it for a moment, if Windows comes preinstalled on most PCs, who's going to need to suggest it be installed? What the fanboys do instead is make-up shit about how hard Linux is to use, how it"constantly needs to have everything recompiled at the command line" and other complete nonsense. They rip on other ecosystems, and behave exactly as OP was talking about.
DirectorDirect1569@reddit
You talk about salesmen, not normal users. If these guys would work for Red Hat or Canonical they would have a totally different speech. I have worked with Mandriva employees, their speech was "MS sucks"
kaloric@reddit
Every ecosystem has its power users & professionals who are fanboys. The normal users honestly just want to get stuff done, they don't care about the vehicle, just that they're not wasting excessive time and money on the vehicle itself.
My observations are that Linux evangelists/fanboys (yep, I'm definitely one) see Linux as a solution and that's why we present it as a solution to problems people encounter with other ecosystems.
Apple fanboys mostly seem to be about exclusivity and perceptions of superiority, usually along the lines of creativity and uniqueness. They're all special snowflakes with all the same few devices which are clearly identifiable, I'm pretty sure not a laptop or phone case exists that doesn't have a ridiculous cut-out or window for the logo. It's passive evangelizing & peer pressure, where everyone can see who's a member...and who's not.
The M$ fanboys mostly rip on everyone else. They're probably moderately insecure, since it's not exactly a secret how screwed-up M$' products are, how they're overtly hostile to the end users and open standards, but everything else has to be disparaged and called bad, whether true or not, because it's honestly not hard to be better. Their concern is not having their product lose ground on the (de)merits if it's fairly judged, so they are just so damn offensive in their defensiveness.
I'll admit that I absolutely know way more about almost all M$ products than I do about Linux and various FOSS applications. I actually have liked the Active Directory since it first came out; it's not perfect, but it is one of the few things that really makes a Microsoft ecosystem in a large enterprise environment tolerable. Windows Enterprise endpoints still have issues, but at least all the features function, licensing "filthy, dirty pirate" accusations rarely rear their ugly heads, and they can be maintained in such a way they're kept up-to-date and rebooted frequently to keep the user sessions from degrading into crashes or having security flaws exploited. Without the benefits of competent management and also having all manner of hobbling, the various gimped flavors of Windows consumer endpoints are just downright terrible & hostile to the user.
The Mandriva people you worked with were amateurs or ignorant, just like the M$ fanboys. The argument is absolutely never "that other thing sucks." That's just stupid and sounds like a fucking religion, it doesn't help. It doesn't solve anything, it just sounds angry and unhelpful.
I remember when Linux on the desktop was definitely not a solution for a casual consumer end user. I used it, I learned it, but I definitely wasn't recommending it for someone who wanted their system to "just work." It was not a solution for any frustrations they were having, and early iterations of Windows and MacOS did make computing accessible to consumers with pretty decent GUIs. They used to be the solutions to CLIs that did require a bit of knowledge to make use of.
But now Linux desktop distros are real solutions. Android is objectively far superior to any other mobile device or vehicle infotainment system. There's not even a question.
Don't like how badly Windows performs on your 10 year old laptop, or tells you you're crazy to even try installing it? A good consumer distro will probably run and be snappy if you need the basics, you can have more functionality than a dumbed-down cheapo Chrome netbook.
Don't want to pay the M$ tax, subscription fees to have the functionality you want, or don't want to pay for an OS upgrade when M$ decides to stop supporting the version you already paid the M$ tax on a few years ago? Kubuntu LTS versions are kept up-to-date, usually have seamless upgrades to the next LTS, the upgrade process is quick, and it doesn't cost a dime.
Don't want to re-learn how to get around on your computer every time you upgrade to the latest release because they decided that you want cartoonish tiles & a tablet interface is appropriate for a desktop, and the real control panel is "too hard" so they'll make that harder to find and give you a bunch of shitty wizard apps? The look and feel of my Kubuntu user session on the most recent LTS is pretty much the same as when I first set-up a Kubuntu box in 2006, it's not necessary to change much of anything if you don't want to.
Being accused of being a pirate by your OS and having it lock you out almost completely because you upgraded your video card and memory at the same time? *gasp* Or maybe because you were testing hardware for functionality? Can't pirate what's already free. Run it off of a live CD on any random computer you want, if that floats your boat.
Speaking of live CDs, it's pretty funny how most Windows techs & support people would be completely dead in the water without their Linux-based USB utility drives for recovering Windows systems with boot issues, because none of the utilities M$ provides work worth a shit.
These are solutions to actual frustrating problems. No need to generically disparage anything, just point out that it's not necessary to suffer under the boots of corporations who are collaborating against the best interests of consumers.
DirectorDirect1569@reddit
"Android is objectively far superior to any other mobile device" I have an Ipad and an android smartphone. I don't see what is superior on Android. I use procreate on my ipad, there is no serious alternative to this app. Lots of people prefer IOS.
"Don't like how badly Windows performs on your 10 year old laptop, or tells you you're crazy to even try installing it? A good consumer distro will probably run and be snappy if you need the basics"
I have a laptop from 2017 that works with win11 and 8Gb of ram. If the PC was fast with 10, it will be with 11. Good luck with wayland on some old computers . More and more distros leave X11.
"or don't want to pay for an OS upgrade when M$ decides to stop supporting the version you already paid the M$ tax on a few years ago?"
you don't pay for an upgrade. Only if you change your PC or your motherboard.
"Don't want to re-learn how to get around on your computer every time you upgrade to the latest release because they decided that you want cartoonish tiles & a tablet interface is appropriate for a desktop, and the real control panel is "too hard" so they'll make that harder to find and give you a bunch of shitty wizard apps?"
Remember when gnome 3 replaced gnome 2 and KDE 4 replaced KDE3.5. They were totally different.
"Being accused of being a pirate by your OS and having it lock you out almost completely because you upgraded your video card and memory at the same time? *gasp* Or maybe because you were testing hardware for functionality? "
I don't know where you hear this kind of thing. It's totally false.
"Speaking of live CDs, it's pretty funny how most Windows techs & support people would be completely dead in the water without their Linux-based USB utility drives for recovering Windows systems with boot issues, because none of the utilities M$ provides work worth a shit."
Live CD with windows exist too. Ex: Malekal live CD. How did they do when there was no linux live CD with recovering tools?
I wonder the last time you used windows. You talk like someone who never used windows since vista. Windows is far for being perfect but your arguments are old clichés.
"But now Linux desktop distros are real solutions"
It's your solution not everyone's solution. Talk to people who use solidworks, Flstudio and play multiplayer games with anticheats. Even davinci resolve have issues on many distros and can't uses codecs like h265. If it was really a solution lots of linux users would stop using a dual boot for specific tools.
If it was the solution, all companies in the world would use linux.
"just point out that it's not necessary to suffer under the boots of corporations who are collaborating against the best interests of consumers."
I don't know why you use android, it's developed by google. Ok it's open source, but no google working on android=no fork.
And if you hate these kind of big corps. Stop using linux, they are involved in the development of the linux kernel and others open source projects. Look at who is in the leaderboard of the linux foundation. they definitely have influence and they don't do that without interest.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
These anticheats are basically rootkits and nobody should use them. It's just a security flaw, one step away from a disaster.
DirectorDirect1569@reddit
that's a false excuse. If one day games with anti cheats work on linux, gamers won't care about security. I'm sure lots of linux gamers who still have windows in dual boot for multiplayer games will delete their win partition to play on linux.
Lots of player are happy that anticheats app exist. Lots of multiplayer games would be unplayable because of cheaters.
kaloric@reddit
Apple relies on a single "must have" app and the illusion of prestige branding to sell overpriced and underperforming devices in a user-hostile locked-down walled-garden rife with needlessly proprietary components, abysmal serviceability, and planned, forced obsolescence.
You've obviously never had to give the, "Your (computer/device) is too old, the latest (iOS/OSX/MacOS) it is able to run is no longer supported and will not receive any more security updates. It can't be on the network anymore, you'll have to get a replacement," speech. That actually happened to my work-issued MacBook Air from 2012, right about the time I quit IT in 2021. It's not the reason I left, obviously, but that laptop served me well enough and still performed better than the POS new MacBook that I got in 2017 and promptly had its shitty keyboard fail, so I had it fixed under warranty, got permission to defer upgrade, and turned it back in & kept the MBA for the rest of my time there, I'd actually just unboxed the new MBP I had no choice but to start using...because a 10 year old device that was perfectly functional was obsolete due to being no longer supported.
Fuck Apple and everything about them. No killer app is worth the abuse and ecological disaster that is all the needless e-waste they're responsible for.
FCP and Motion were also killer apps. They're far from the only choices for NLEs and compositors, though.
That's not even 10 years old.
So, what you're saying is, if I have a system with a legitimate installation of Windows 7, I can just upgrade it to a fully functional version of Windows 11 without spending a dime?
Remember how it was still fairly simple to ignore the dumb Plasma widgets and other garbage and get the look & feel you were used to?
I found all that annoying, every bit as annoying as the pointless UI changes M$ keeps forcing on users, but at least it could mostly be brushed aside. I'm probably going to be plenty annoyed if Wayland is pushed onto Kubuntu users, I did not like what I saw when Ubuntu went with it.
Since we're going down memory lane, remember that time M$ decided users needed to just get over the Start Menu and had that fiddle-fucky fullscreen tablet tile aberration, and you had to toggle between it and a stripped-down desktop?
It's the entire fucking reason I got fed-up with Windows once and for all in 2007 in my personal environment, and have not purchased another Windows retail licence since. It's only been dual-boot on a backup system or in VMs because I just don't need the hassle of license verification because I've made too many minor hardware changes in a short time.
Windows did occasionally freak-out even in the enterprise environment and go into piracy lockdown with everything including 10.
You're talking just like another M$ certified professional salesman who wants folks to believe everything is different now, that the newest Windows is better and has left its troubled past behind.
Since you brought it up, though, what really is functionally different and better since Vista? I can only think of a handful of significant, functional improvements. Plenty of changes to the user experience, rarely for the better, mostly for the sake of change and improving corporate revenue.
M$ keeps going through a cycle where it deliberately creates user frustration in a new & improved release, solves the pointless problems it had created in a subsequent release, and acts like it's innovation. Then, when users are complacent, rather than just maintaining and making small improvements to a gold-standard build, they just go shake things up again.
Windows 10 was going to be "the final version of Windows," with the subscription model built in and something that would be stable. I didn't believe that for a minute, and sure enough, they were just kidding and I'm sure the fanboys have rationalizations.
I'm guessing Win11 is "new" and "better" primarily because Cortana uses Bing AI-driven answers for questions, just like live web queries were the big thing with the previous couple of versions.
And I'll continue to not know or care and definitely not use that rubbish, because it's stupid. That's a moot point because I'm out of IT (hopefully for good) and will maybe never have to deal with Windows again to any appreciable degree.
Why so defensive-offensive? You're being exactly like what OP is talking about. Haven't you read a damn thing I've written, or the intent behind my words?
I literally said that I only suggest Linux as a solution for specific frustrations, and mentioned a few of them, which you promptly attempted to dismiss as being irrelevant.
I don't aimlessly evangelize like a Mormon or JW missionary going door to door in the suburbs.
And I've never ONCE ever claimed that Linux is a universal solution for everyone, because I know it's not. As such, I couldn't care less about any exceptions you can dream up.
My assertion stands. Linux desktop distros are real solutions. They can work for most end users, regardless of skill level, because they, and commonly available apps, can do anything most end users need to do.
Many around the world do. It's mostly the USA that's so vendor-locked.
Google, IBM, and many others realized there's value in building on a foundation that isn't beholden to a single vendor with a closed source who restricts what they can do with it, all and might pull the rug at any time, or might stand as an obstacle to change and improvement.
There's a huge difference between being in a vendor-locked ecosystem controlled by a single corporation for its profit, and being part of a FOSS ecosystem that corporations see value in contributing to and leveraging. Google has its own motives, obviously, but Linux and something resembling Android would definitely continue if it pulled out, went bonkers, or otherwise took an unsavory turn.
You didn't mention if you ever had a Zune or Windows phone.
Those are the essence of the distinction.
DirectorDirect1569@reddit
"So, what you're saying is, if I have a system with a legitimate installation of Windows 7, I can just upgrade it to a fully functional version of Windows 11 without spending a dime?"
Yes, but in my opinion you will need to upgrade to 10 before.
"Since you brought it up, though, what really is functionally different and better since Vista? I can only think of a handful of significant, functional improvements. Plenty of changes to the user experience, rarely for the better, mostly for the sake of change and improving corporate revenue."
Windows defender was a big improvement. Windows 7 has better performances. Most of users don't use a thirs party security suite anymore.
"You're talking just like another M$ certified professional salesman who wants folks to believe everything is different now, that the newest Windows is better and has left its troubled past behind."
You said the last time you used windows was in 2007 for a daily use. I don't know how you can compare win11 to older versions.
"Since we're going down memory lane, remember that time M$ decided users needed to just get over the Start Menu and had that fiddle-fucky fullscreen tablet tile aberration, and you had to toggle between it and a stripped-down desktop?"
You talk about win8. The interface is similar to win7 with newer versions. What about all the people who used ubuntu and were forced to use unity?
You talk about obsolescence. Look at wayland that cause issues on old hardware. Canonical or RH don't care of users by leaving X11
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
This is exactly what I imagined when cloud technology was introduced. Sure, it was convenient and cheaper than paying multiple sysadmins to maintain their own systems, but vendor lock in was really what scared me away from cloud technology. I know corporations are about profit only and this was too good of an opportunity for them not to abuse. I use cloud for backup, but ONLY as one of the options.
I remember talking with a friend of mine who was working as an (SQL)database admin, and when I mentioned MongoDB, he didn't even want to discuss it. I understand the fear and/or tediousness of migrating to a new platform, but rejecting even a discussion about it, was something I found weird. I wanted to get his input on differences and usability of each, since I was just starting with coding, but it was impossible.
I like where I am with my dual boot and I'm spending more and more time in Linux. I'm not forcing anyone to do the same, but I won't listen to complaints when things I was talking about, happen.
kaloric@reddit
Yep. It seemed so very obvious what the end goal of M$ was. I assumed Google/Alphabet doesn't care so much about an ecosystem lock-in, they specifically try to be platform-agnostic in a highly functional way, but they definitely want to control the flow, storage, and use of data.
M$ (and the fanboys at high levels where I'd worked) were so aggressive that, even though we'd had GDrive as one of the primary options for email and cloud storage, and it definitely worked well, they managed to cut the ties. It took a whopping 2 or 3 years from getting rid of GDrive that M$ went crazy raising the per-seat license costs for cloud accounts and, well, everything across the board. Seems almost like anti-competitive action, something that could be part of an anti-trust investigation. That's why the institution reneged on its promise of lifetime email. I feel if they'd stuck with both GDrive and M$ contracts, and the accompanying dual mailhomes, it never would have been an issue and they could have kept M$ from screwing them over with fees.
Diversifying one's skillset by learning new things, whether needed or not, is what real job security is comprised of, as well as actually being able to provide real solutions that make things better, rather than always going around trying to hammer square pegs in round holes.
ronaldtrip@reddit
In my estimation people only want to gripe about their OS/Computer. They want validation. "Windows is a POS!!!" "I know, right? 😁" They want the shared experience, not a new technical solution and everything that entails.
Even if Linux would solve all their problems, most will reject the notion of switching. Better the devil you know and all that. Also, when you do get them to switch, you'll end up their 24/7 onsite tech support. "What do you mean, I need to do x, y or z? You got me into this hassle and now you are not going to help me?!" Where help means doing everything for them.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
I realized that from other answers here. My point is that IT is a place where problems in discussions need to be addressed, as that is the point of a discussion - it's technical. I guess, some people involve their emotions. Maybe I need to better understand the difference between the two.
Also, I am ready to help and be their technical support, ease the transition, but not 24/7. That's why I don't mention this often.
ronaldtrip@reddit
I think there is one thing you haven't realised yet. The average computer user has accepted the shortcomings of the tech they are using. They just need to vent from time to time. The little niggles build up frustration. Vent. Release pressure. Share a moment with someone who can relate.
Bringing in a whole new platform and new software is like pouring a bucket of ice water on the moment.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
Yeah, I see it now. That bucket was a vivid example xD I didn't realize that something so trivial (in my opinion) can have such a big influence.
TheOGDoomer@reddit
You probably come off as preachy about it, which is incredibly annoying. Just like I don't want Jehovah's Witnesses bugging me about their religion, I wouldn't want some tech vegan to recommend Linux to me for every problem my computer has ever had.
On the opposite hand, I've had many great Linux conversations with people. It just naturally gets brought up and me and some other tech nerd just geek out about Linux and how awesome it is lol.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
Maybe you should read the first edit I wrote in OP. I don't consider myself a Linux preacher, even if that is the most common thing happening.
For me, Linux is better than Windows, but that's just me. I won't force a person or preach their ears off about it.
8640p@reddit
People are absolutely tired of hearing about Linux. I was one of those users who gave Linux a try after everyone on Reddit and YouTube recommended it to me. It ended up being a mediocre experience. A lot of my games didn’t work, FOSS alternatives sucked, my audio was busted, VRR was non functional, vsync was broken, and watching YouTube was very stuttery. I was oversold Linux and ended up with a meh experience.
You pretty much hear about Linux everywhere on Reddit and YouTube. Shitting on Windows 11 seems to be totally justified, but the same cannot be said for Linux. The Linux community doesn’t seem to be too keen on acknowledging that there are flaws with Linux just like every OS. I’ve even some Linux users attack Windows and Mac users because they won’t switch to Linux. I have never seen this kind of behavior from Mac/Windows users. Mac/Windows users do not give a shit as to what OS others use. The Linux community is hellbent on mentioning it wherever they go. I’m at that point where I have labeled the Linux community a cultist group.
I’ve also seen very snarky remarks from the Linux community when someone switches back to Windows if they had problems with Linux. You’ll see Linux users in every tech subreddit and they’ll comment “switch to Linux” when the OP had a minor issue that can be fixed with a few clicks on their current OS. r/pcmasterrace has had several pro Linux posts have a very large number of upvotes but an unusually low number of comments. I think bots might be upvoting these posts, but I have nothing to back up that claim.
So yeah to conclude, telling someone about Linux to them is like “omg here’s this zealot talking about Linux again”. Mind you that Linux is only 3.1% of the global market share. It’s a very small but loud minority of users. Just let people use whatever OS they want and let them use it in peace. Don’t even mention Linux as an option unless they mention it first. Linux still has a lot of problems (poor software support, worse gaming performance, tinkering with proton versions and startup commands, CLI when something goes wrong, too many distros, etc). For the average user, the only real tangible benefit that normies get is privacy. Linux doesn’t collect any telemetry data or have ads. And even then, how much of a benefit does Linux give you for privacy if you’re still using Google search, Reddit, Android phones, watching YouTube and using Chrome on Linux?
I have stopped interacting with the Linux community as a whole because they are very difficult to talk to. This post is the rare exception. Hopefully my comment gives you a different perspective as to why people get annoyed when they hear about Linux.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
Your post is welcome from my point of view, to display one side of Linux community which isn't pleasant and doesn't do any favors to it. Fortunately, this is not a representative of the whole, just a loud minority. I am using Linux atm., and I would gladly install Windows to someone who asks for it, without mentioning Linux. But if the reason why they are reinstalling OS has something to do with privacy, OS behaving weird I will suggest Linux. I will not preach about it.
Regarding Linux community, I agree that there are very vocal individuals or even groups that praise Linux to heavens without realizing it is just another OS - inferior one even. I'm sorry to hear you had a run in with the preachy and cultist part of Linux and I don't like that either. There are also Windows fanboys too, just so you know. You don't notice them because Windows is in large majority and there's no need to say "switch to Windows". But they do visit Linux forums just to ragebait.
The problems you described can appear, but are less common than you think. Linux usage has increased to 5%, gaming is way better now and I guess it will be even better after Valve publishes their whole lineup of Valve gaming hardware. It won't be completely without issues, but Windows 11 is getting worse by each update.
The fact is that Windows 11 is the worst Windows to date, but Windows as a platform is still way better solution than Linux for most use cases. You having issues with Linux is nothing new and maybe you got the wrong distro for your system and it wasn't compatible. I had a different experience, albeit not without issues. Windows also wasn't without issues - should I have disregarded Windows as a whole just because I ran into issues? No! I willingly entered this field as I knew what I was getting myself into and accepted the consequences.
You are not obligated to "switch to Linux" and no one can force you. I, or anyone else, can't tell you what is better for you. If they do, just ignore them.
I've seen a couple of answers in this thread where people told me they don't want to switch to Linux just because they had a minor issue. That is why I wrote edit2 in my OP. A lot of people had bad experience with Linux preachers and think all Linux users are the same, which is not true. Even in this thread I have seen people who use Linux but have been OS agnostic and gave sensible answers.
I guess you focused mostly on bad experiences since your Linux experience wasn't a pleasant one. If you want to use Windows, stay with Windows. Don't listen to Linux preachers. If it is the best platform for your machine, then leave it at that. This Linux migration fad is just that. It will blow over in time, just like everything else. You stay with what you're most comfortable with and pay less attention to shifting trends.
Lastly, an example. My gf is using Windows 10 on her laptop. It's a gaming laptop from 2020 and it's starting to show strange issues: keyboard not working, sound disappearing, multiple boot sequences after she turns her laptop on, overheating and loud fans with integrated display but normal temps and fans when she has an external monitor,... We tried Fedora live for a couple of days, and haven't noticed any of the issues during that period. Since she doesn't want Windows 11, Linux might be the right solution for her.
So, Linux might be the right solution for her, but in your case it obviously isn't. Don't listen to preachers from any camp and see for yourself what is the best solution for your system and you. Just make sure you back up data that you care about, in any case ;)
tomekgolab@reddit
What exactly are you even discussing about Linux with other people?
"Hey bro, is zypper a better package manager then apt?"
"Did you see the latest Torvald's crashout at devel mailing list?"
"Hey man, do you understand unix sockets?"
"Ansible and docker, best combo ever, am I right my man?"
I really can't imagine a casual conversation about Linux
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
"Have you tried repairing your Windows installation with a bootable Win 11 drive?"
"If it doesn't work, have you saved your data"
"No, if you format your drive, you will loose your data"
"If Windows boot drive doesn't work, have you tried Hyrens boot cd or a live Linux partition?"
x_x
tomekgolab@reddit
Oh so mostly those "Linux as alternative to Windows" things. Those you mentioned sound quite resonable, not sure why you are getting dunked. People unfortunetely don't make those spare bootable media some time.
Damn, I was this kid walking with linux live cd as "tech support", thanks for mentioning hiren's boot... majorgeeks, etc., good times.
Puzzled-Garbage-250@reddit
I just don't talk about linux. I don't care if other people use it. If it comes up for whatever reason, I just answer whatever questions arise but I don't try to convince people it's a good choice or they should use it. If someone seems to react negatively or have negative preconceptions, as previously said, I'll answer any questions but otherwise don't care.
I think your problem is that you care for whatever weird reason.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
I do care about giving options to resolve a problem, but I'm not insisting on it. I don't push anyone on switching to Linux nor to accept any of my suggestions. I just find it weird that people react so...unexpectedly about something that doesn't obligate them.
StillNewspaper4799@reddit
I've encountered Linux hate before but it's pretty rare in my experience, in fact the majority of the sentiment seems to be against Windows, even from those who use it. The main attitude I encounter is a desire to be able to switch from Windows but uncertainty about switching form something they may have used most of their lives.
Reading your post it seems you make a decent number of suggestions to others? This may be where at least some of this animosity comes from. People don't always want to be given suggestions, I think if you're seeing a lot of animosity then it's possibly because you're making suggestions that people aren't appreciating, or perhaps doing it in a way that's not appreciated.
The fact that you see it as a refusal makes me suspect you're being too pushy. At the end of the day we can sing Linux's praises but it's not up to us to tell others what software to use. Entitlement is a real problem in our society so I can understand if you fall into this way of thinking, I have myself in the past. But the fact that you can find someone not accepting your suggestion as confusing or disrespectful is a little concerning to me.
Do the people you make suggestions to explicitly ask for a suggestion? If not it may be best to not give one.
When the issue of OS software or Windows comes up I'll often leave a post or will say I've switched to fedora and found it very easy, but I won't outright make a suggestion, just give my experience of switching. I think most people are worried about hassle more than anything, so if you really want others to try Linux then I'd focus on that and on how painless the switch can be.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
I've found about from other answers here that some people might have had a bad experience with a person before me introducing them to Linux. I don't consider myself pushy or preachy, as some have called me here, and I certainly don't force people on any of the choices I present.
One of the answers was also that people just want to vent and haven't expected that someone will actually answer. From my point of view, I'm trying to be helpful, but the reactions seem over the top.
The conversations I have, when Linux is mentioned, are usually IT related and within the context. That is why I feel like offering solutions is in order. Guess, I was wrong.
Odd_Wolverine5805@reddit
One of the reasons Linux gets so much hate imo is that advertising works on people, and Linux doesn't advertise but it's competition does.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
True, but Linux also has a sort of advertising. There are parts of Linux community that are counterproductive to Linux popularity. That also plays a role.
gazpitchy@reddit
What if I told you, most people's simply don't give a fuck? No one is repulsed, just not interested.
It's hardly like Linux users are generally the most sociable or accepting. I mean, god damn, people argue about the smallest differences to feel superior here.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
True - most people don't care and that's fine. Others, I did saw a visible repulsion in people I discussed Linux with and that's what I found weird. From what I learned from answers here, these reactions most likely come from people who had someone else giving them a bad experience before me, or people who are admins against their will in a system with too many users. They got stuck as the only Linux support in their company, and that got them to react the way they did.
And true - I have seen discussions within Linux community where they discuss superiority of a certain distro to a fanatical levels. So, yeah, it's a thing that doesn't do any favors to Linux community.
gazpitchy@reddit
I dunno, maybe don't seek validation and just stop caring what people say? It's a lot easier
rayjaymor85@reddit
I find a lot of people treat brands like tribalism. ie Intel vs AMD, McDonalds vs Burger King, Republican vs Democrat etc.
Also to be fair, the Linux community is (somewhat fairly...) considered to be the Crossfit equivalent in the IT space. We never shut up about using it.
I'd argue that Linux doesn't actually solve that many problems on the desktop space. Most normies don't care that much about telemetry or even privacy. They just want their computer to work and they don't want to spend ages learning how to do so.
I tend to not really suggest people change their OS unless their complaint is specific to the OS.
ie "Oh man, Adobe is so expensive" has nothing to do with Windows. The alternatives (GIMP, Affinity, etc) work fine on Windows or Mac.
I only recommend Linux of someone says "Wow, I'm really alarmed at how much of my data is being harvested"
BambooGentleman@reddit
It's not something you can avoid mentioning in some contexts. Otherwise people will be under the wrong impression. Like when talking about gaming. I can't just say that I do it on PC, I have to specify that it's a Linux PC.
rayjaymor85@reddit
In that context it's fair I think
BambooGentleman@reddit
People will still be annoyed, for some reason. Guess because PC has become synonymous with Windows. Macs are PCs, too, but everyone just calls them Macs. On that note, Android phones are PCs, too. But everything other than Linux has got its own cool name.
Morphized@reddit
Windows having to use 6GiB of RAM all the time is also very annoying and tangible
mmmboppe@reddit
I just never shut up about not using Windows, until they learn it and don't bring it up anymore. sometimes the random "experts" conclude that I'm a Mac user, which is an even bigger insult for me (look up the shaving with a bowling pin old meme) then I insult their moms :D
oxez@reddit
And now even on the Linux subreddit, nobody shuts up about spamming distributions that won't even be around in 2 years shrug
edparadox@reddit
On Reddit.
I have never seen anybody claiming this anywhere else.
Edujtnias@reddit
Good answer. Brand loyalty is a joke.
masterofallvillainy@reddit
Considering your first point, the one about tribalism. I'd argue it's fundamentally a part of humanity and occurs in any area that represents differences. Philosophy, religion, sex, gender, politics, race, wealth, operating systems, distros, which side of town you're from, etc.
bearstormstout@reddit
Thanks, Arch (btw).
Spinnekop62@reddit
Thanks Debian btw
CircuitSynapse42@reddit
This is a good explanation, and I find it accurate to my experiences as well.
Thatoneguy_The_First@reddit
I would also add to the list of reasons to leave as harvesting data is a concern 99% dont care about cause they cant see it.
1 is cause of catastrophic failure like deleting all you files cause the computer decided after an update that everything is onedrive but you don't have enough space.
2 is it can eat through ssd's because of the constant read write cycles that have gotten worse with 1.
3 is all the ads and fortunately bullshit.
4 is more ram usage so other programs that need more are not getting it.
5 is microsoft saying a good chunk of its code is was written with AI which most who have dabbled and dont have any investment knows how shit it can be for pretty much anything.
6 is microsoft saying that they want win12 to be a agentic os(aka no os just ai).
7 is older games or software not working that you need.
8 forced updates that can rarely be stopped cause even if you pause it for 7 days(most dont know this) it still just might(add goofy meme here)
And so much more that is thrown at the face of the user that's not in the background. Its why I suggest having it either on something else that you don't touch often or dual boot it on separate drives so if it fucks the boot loader it doesn't overwrite linux like it can if it's on the same drive.
Moving os to Linux or Mac or whatever else is becoming less of a choice unless you are crazy in love with windows and even die hards are slowly cracking over time. And I hate that I have to say that cause some of my best memories with pc was with windows(7) but it is what it is
getapuss@reddit
This is it right here. People tend to dislike what they are not familiar with because it takes them out of their comfort zone. It makes them feel uncomfortable. It's really that simple.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
I realize Linux community can be cultish, but I am not, and people who talk to me know that either. That's why this reaction comes to me as a surprise.
True, Linux is not perfect, far from it, but it can be a better alternative than bloated or update disastrous Windows 11.
The reason why I mention Linux is that people do complain to me about Windows and me mentioning Linux provokes reaction I described above.
Price might be one of the factors for change, but if people are complaining about Adobe (just as an example), there are free software alternatives on Windows and there's even more choice than on Linux. So I'm not pulling Linux card that easily.
Makes sense what you said, I just don't want to turn out like I'm some kind of Linux preacher.
Johnden_@reddit
I actually started caring about data after being on Linux for a couple of months. What made me switch from Windows though is after an update either things set back to default after changing them for half an hour or messed up the drivers causing a BSOD loop. And also the constant bloatware getting reinstalled.
I simply couldn't be bothered and would rather have an OS that doesn't do that.
Mental-Armadillo-243@reddit
Yeah man, the crossfit comparison is way too accurate lol. I'm studying mechanical engineering and use CAD software pretty regularly, so I get why people stick with Windows for certain workflows. But when I switched to dual boot setup last year, I was surprised how much smoother everything runs in Linux side for general computing stuff.
Thing is, most people don't really want to learn new system even if it might help them. They already invested time learning Windows shortcuts, file management, troubleshooting tricks and all that. Starting over feels like waste of time to them. Plus there's always that fear that something will break and they won't know how fix it - at least with Windows they know someone who can help or they can find tutorial easily.
I learned to stop bringing up Linux unless someone specifically complains about Windows performance or privacy issues. Otherwise it just sounds like you're telling them their choice is wrong, even when that's not what you mean to say.
TheZupZup@reddit
The truth about Linux being so good for me is:
#1: It’s open source, and it might stay that way.
#2: Microsoft is going for Windows 12 to be subscription-based. What it means is you will have to pay to use your PC. And that’s why many people are migrating to Linux even governments are doing the same thing.
#3: Thanks to Valve and Proton, gaming has caught up to Windows in terms of performance. In my case, with the same config, it uses less CPU and GPU while having the same performance and quality in the same game. On Windows, I was at 84°C, and on Linux I was around 10°C lower, so about 65–70°C with air cooling.
#4: I found more help on Reddit for Linux, and I used videos on YouTube. Now I’m on Fedora 43 KDE on both my laptop and gaming rig, and I’ll never switch back.
#5: Before going to Linux, I was skeptical like everybody else, and I decided to give it a shot and I actually liked it. It might depend on what you do with your PC, but the fact that I didn’t have to buy an antivirus for my laptop and gaming rig made the difference for me.
feeblington@reddit
Since having linux i installed win 10 ltsc iot and basiclg having ever booted into it....i WILL ditch it when i find an easy way to burn windows isos from mint....but so fsr thsts my only issue (i still have to repair friends older computers and i will not be going to win 11....ive put linux kn as many would let me and everyone i have has had zero complaints 😁
MrYlmir@reddit
use Ventoy, no need for "burning" isos, copy and delete isos directly to "ventoy" partition on usb
feeblington@reddit
Ive had more trouble than not with ventoy. Ive tended to use either rufus on windows or the fedora media writer...is there a nack or is it just hardware specific?
MrYlmir@reddit
The only issue ive had is described here https://www.ventoy.net/en/doc_mbr_vs_gpt.html . a bad quality usbstick can also give som trouble
feeblington@reddit
Hard to tell...i use the same 2 usb sticks and never seem to be an issue? Could just be my pc specs plus that certain usb means no dice on ventoy...i know some linux things csn be hardware iffy
theclawisback@reddit
The migration headache is not something a doctor or a lawyer would want to go through. These two particular professions turn pretty closed=minded and trying to tell them that MS is a terrible company with terrible business practices, is not something they are interested in.
For some reason, the public also knows that most apps they use are not available in Linux, and Winblows has had 3 decades to be ingrained into people's mind that Windows is the computer: no clue what hardware you use, they know it has Windows.
I understand their way of thinking, it's not their profession and since they have money, they choose evil companies instead of a little grievance while migrating.
vilejor@reddit
People don't agree that a solution requires learning a new system.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
Read the first edit I wrote in the original post.
vilejor@reddit
irrelevant.
In your example and explanations, you seem to presenting people "learn an entirely new system that you're not used to" as a solution to an issue they might be having.
To me, this is you misunderstanding that "Change your habits and learn a new way of doing almost everything you do on a computer" is not a solution to problem A. In fact, most people are right in assuming that it will create larger hurdles than their initial issue.
They understand that you're enthusiastic about your OS, and they're shocked that you don't realize such a suggestion to their existing issues is actually asking them to change a lot of the way they do things in their important aspects of their life.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
You skipped it yet again... Let me write that again for you:
- "...in ONE of the solutions I provide,..."
- "After I exhaust most or all of the simplest solutions I can think of..."
- "...Linux MIGHT also BE a viable option as their use case doesn't require dependency on Windows..."
...
This is not mandatory and I don't insist on it.
This is me trying to tell them: "your system has serious issues and you will have to do something about it. Instead of buying a new system, here is one of the cheaper potions."
In these cases they will have to re install the OS anyway. It's not a question of if, only when. They WILL encounter the same issues and go through it all over again. And we all know what a definition of insanity is.
I find that you don't understand what I'm actually doing here, partly because you don't pay attention to the text I'm writing. Why do you have such a strong response to change of habits?
vilejor@reddit
Give an example of a serious issue that their system has which switching to Linux is a solution.
Not one you can think of, but one you have suggested it for.
DigitalChrono@reddit
When I told my Dad I was using Linux he asked me, is it stable? So that made me think that some people's dismissive attitude is from an era Linux was severely unstable. Then when I was working on a machine for someone, I offered the idea of Linux because it was a lowered powered machine that couldn't meet Windows update requirement. He was open minded to it but said no in the end, because of package availability and again, that is still a concern for most people. Then there's the online community of how Linux users diss Windows users, Windows OS, diss each other for their own distro choice, severely toxic Based on that alone, I don't blame people for dismissing conversations about Linux because there's no way that person is going to know your response in the moment and it's sad because it's dismissing technology based on its userbase but if appearance is nine tenths of the law, the Linux toxic community hurts itself.
I'm an introvert and avoid most tech discussion unless I'm online like here in Reddit or getting something out of it, either money or supporting specific needs, ie try to fix a Windows machine/issue, a specific request to switch to Linux etc. Linux users may be horrified that I enjoy using Windows and Windows users may be horrified that I love using Linux and they both may be shocked I'm curious about FreeBSD(have only tried it a few times but it's on my bucket list). Or they may not care at all and that's fine too.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
I believe we have similar opinions. I guess my surprise about their reactions partially comes from them not being as open minded as myself.
DigitalChrono@reddit
Makes sense. I was initially shocked at my Dad. But I guess with desktop usage % so low most people may not have a reason to reconsider unless they are in a position they need to. It was only by chance I had reconsidered my opinion.
A friend of mine talked Linux up yet I remember how bad it was for my friend when he dual booted back in the early 2000's and I got a virus warning one time trying to install back around the same time. So between my friend and then my machine not able to be updated, I was forced to reconsider and glad I did.
yotties@reddit
Many people associate linux with 'techies' and uncommercial ideas.
One simple change could be to use debian in wsl2, just install it from the MS-store. Then you can run linux apps and show they are very similar. Linux without the nerdiness.
spectrumero@reddit
"Repulsiveness?"
I've found no one really cares. People use an OS to get their job done. They use whatever OS helps them get their job done and don't think about it much any deeper.
Even Mac users don't care that greatly about the OS, they care more about the applications they are running.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
Indifference I can understand. But when I talk to people directly, no chat or voice only communication, I can see their behavior. It means it's not indifference but something else. It puzzles me their reaction to something so arbitrary.
MatchingTurret@reddit
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
Why do you think I'm a Linux evangelist?
flame-otter@reddit
I so hate it when this happens XD. I never mention Linux unless asked what program I use for this and that and it's a program that exist only on Linux, then I say "I use program x that is only available on Linux". I immediately get weird looks and attitude, it never ends lol.
It was worse in the past though, like 15 years ago you could get condescending comments like "oh because Linux is soooo much better yeaaah". Back then you just where a "LInux evangelist" or elitist or just generally unlikeable.
Just on a random party some dickhead would intentionally come bitching about why I think it's so much better and I go "I don't, I just don't like Microsoft". Big mistake, then mr dickhead must dig into why I don't like Microsoft and NOBODY could even think a bad thought about Microsoft, even today the people who realize how evil they are probably make up less than <1% of society.
I don't see that attitude changing even if we would have Recall sharing all your bank details and doctors emails with all your private conversations together with personal identifiable information all over the world. Even then it is the Linux Evangelist that is stupid and intolerable even if he isn't an evangelist and even if THEY started the conversation and THEY brought it up.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
Remember that there are people who willingly voted for Trump. I don't want to go into politics and I'm using this as the most famous current example of people doing stupid things.
SoilMassive6850@reddit
Because of the contents of your post?
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
Quote me and make it within the context.
SoilMassive6850@reddit
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
And this is evangelism to you? Providing a specific option among others? If I see people disengage from a conversation, I don't continue rambling about it, I can take a hint. Do you really think I force people into Linux or think less of them if they refuse an option I gave them?
My confusion is about their demeanor changing only after I mentioned this specific term in a conversation that followed certain topic.
Pejorativez@reddit
Not the guy you're replying to, but I agree with him. You do seem slightly on the evangelical side.
Why do you need to get people to use Linux? Does it really matter?
edparadox@reddit
No, you're the guys depicting Linux users as evangelists without any fact.
If it was not that sad, it would be very funny.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
I don't. To me it doesn't matter, but I find the evangelical title surprising. I'm not leading with it, nor it is one of the options I give to everyone. I post in ithelp, Windows, various games and some other non Linux subs without mentioning Linux. I know about the backlash, but why I don't mention Linux is mostly because there are simpler solutions than switching to Linux. Does that make me Windows defender or clean-up-your-drive evangelist?
edparadox@reddit
Are you for real?
See this is why Linux users are depincted that way ; it's a sub about Linux, and people asking questions are called "Linux evangelists".
Are you fucking kidding me?
DeXTeR_DeN_007@reddit
Not everyone have dumb republicans vs democrats.
DirectorDirect1569@reddit
There is no article talking about windows without comments like "switch to linux". I understand that people are fed up with hearing linux.
There are users who switched to linux because someone told them that "linux was better than windows", "that every devices are plug and play", "that every games are compatible" "every windows app work with wine".
And of course lots of them are disapointed and don't want to hear about linux anymore.
"I'm asking because I see people struggle with Windows but refuse to accept an easier solution"
You think it's an easier solution, but is it the case? For exemple I have a scanner that doesn't work with linux (known issue), I know where to search for a solution, i know how to use the terminal. But people don't necessary have time, have skills, want to learn,..
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
Yeah, I see that as a problematic part of Linux community. I realize that Linux is not a perfect solution so I don't force it. What I consider an easier solution with Linux is when problems have gotten to a point where OS repair is inevitable or people have privacy issues.
DirectorDirect1569@reddit
OS repair? I havent repaired a windows install since Seven at all the people I know. For the privacy, people don't care. Anyway everybody has a smartphone big corps know everything MS is not the onlyone.
gt24@reddit
Adding on to that point, I have ran into a few seriously messed up Windows 11 installations which required a repair install. You ask for the repair install in Settings, you wait a while, and see the results after a reboot. In all situations I have went through, this process worked and you lost no files or programs. You also did very little to do the repair install other than ask Windows to carry that out.
In Linux... well... I don't recall any button in the settings area that will just do a repair install like Windows. You are usually backing up files (since usually your home directly is not in a separate partition) and reinstalling the OS and trying to remember what apps to install and what tweaks you need to carry out to set things up the same way... in other words, it is more of a reinstall as opposed to a repair install.
I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just pointing out that Windows (now) is usually pretty good at fixing itself. I don't have the same experience (or knowledge?) of Linux having the same ease of repairing itself.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
That is for sure one of the places where Linux comes short. But repairing a system to come back to a same point is not a valid solution to me. Even if you have issues with certain distro and reinstall to the same one, only to have the same issues repeat again is the same thing.
A co worker had issues with Win11 installation where issues have gotten to a point where he had to fix MBR (or whatever the equivalent for SSD is today) to be able to save his data. We are working with QGIS and web apps which are cross platform, and switching to Linux would have been a valid option. Especially when he's using his own laptop for work, and not a companies one. All the data is on the cloud as is most of the software. These are the situations I'm talking about.
He was having issues a lot of users in Win11 had, and no amount of reinstalling the system would fix his specific machine.
bruhhhhhhhhhhhh_h@reddit
Technical and technological change is easier than behavioural and experiential . The costs of the latter can be hard to quantify, often this will result in an emotionally procedural outcome especially when the consideration or analysis phase is active.
Some things like this must be shown as the many self preservation and energy expenditure reduction mechanisms will be activated and impairnore analytical or reasoning functions.
Outside of certain incentives minds, are, in general resistant to many forms of change, unknown and perceived rfforts
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
My vocabulary is not as rich as yours, but I understood what you meant. I hope my answer will be meaningful enough.
I am aware that breaking a behavioral patterns are difficult to break for a lot off people. Hence, reason might be overlooked in favor of comfort. What I find surprising is their over the top reaction to this specific topic.
From other answers, I found out that people I discuss Linux with, had a bad experience from someone prior to me. Others, were tasked with maintaining a system for too many people and have gotten an aversion to something they really like.
And then there are some reasons I find silly which is that Linux is considered as an OS for illegitimate business.
All in all, I learned a lot about human psychology from the answers I got here.
mmmboppe@reddit
what exactly is wrong about that?
their problems. I don't care, not anymore, I have my own problems in Linux :D
the proverbial hedgehogs who cry, yet keep banging the cactus. let them do it, it's their choice
you may want to look up "willful ignorance", this explains their behavior perfectly
if you have spare time to talk to others about Linux and they behave like that, instead of helping them or enlightening them you can just consider ridiculing them instead. surprisingly, but sometimes it works.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
Yeah, I realized from other answers as well, that some people just want to rant. I will change my expectations accordingly \^_\^
flux-abyss@reddit
Welcome to reddit.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
Haha, thanks. My account is not new, but I feel like I became a member today xD
UnderstandingIll6872@reddit
I want to keep safe my data as much as possible. For that I think Linux is amazing (ofc in combination with VPN+Tor and not using real names etc. in logins, emails).
I am not speaking much about it with my friends or colleagues. Probably most of them will think that I am weirdo or doing something illegal on the internet.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
Now that you mention it, it might be that people think Linux is for illegitimate business. An interesting point of view, that I haven't considered. I find it silly, but it won't be my first time being surprised by how people think.
WendlersEditor@reddit
If you want to talk about Linux you need to find fellow Linux enthusiasts, there is no shortage. My wife doesn't give af about Linux so I don't try to talk about it with her lol
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
Fair enough. I Mentioned in my OP that I discuss the topic within context and not to people who won't understand what I'm talking about.
I made a mistake once of installing Linux to a person who uses their laptop just for the internet. He was calling me often for a Windows reinstall(every couple of months or so) so I tried experimenting with Linux(Mint). I told him to call me if he had issues and I will help. My idea was to help him with the transition. Next time I was at his place, he had someone (badly) install Vista on their laptop(missing drivers, no antivirus,...). It wasn't him as he told me he PAID someone to install it.
This case taught me to avoid Linux altogether with people who barely know their own machine. This was back in late 2000's. I remember this every time I'm tempted to suggest Linux to "commoners".
crow1170@reddit
So there's this social concept called "time-space compression", where as people's ability to travel distances at speed increases, the amount of space they need to manage increases faster than their ability to manage it. You can sweep the walk up to your porch easily, but the sidewalk in the neighborhood is tougher to maintain, and the highway needs a budget and staff.
Linux is fantastic for personal applications, and is often used in large scale applications with comparable benefits, but you need a budget and staff when you get to highway size. For large groups where the advantages matter must, like they assemble the budget and staff in house. For very small groups like a family, you are the budget and staff.
There are a lot of people burnt out from being the budget and staff for a medium sized group. Maybe they were managing Linux for that group, or maybe something else. But they really value the ability to use money to get someone else to solve an issue for them. They would much rather have less money and fewer features as long as it comes with someone to blame.
Android didn't successfully get Linux into a billion pockets by showing end users that it was faster or cheaper. They did it by showing manufacturers that they could pool their engineers and solve the same problems once instead of having each brand solve it their own way. Users still have someone to pay, someone to blame, someone to come up with improvements.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
Another point of view I haven't considered. It might be one of the major reasons why I got the reaction I did. Thanks for the elaborate answer.
IrrerPolterer@reddit
change is hard and scary. simple as that
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
Sometimes it's necessary. The good thing is that nobody can force you into it, and doing it is wrong.
ChainsawJaguar@reddit
It's not Linux that turns people off, it's some of the most vocal users that do it. Everything from, "If you don't use Arch, you're lame" to "Mint is for babies" sentiments. It's like Mac vs Windows, except it's all infighting and "ackshually" arguments. It's all stupid.
So, even if you're not one of the aforementioned people, you'll get lumped in with them. Linux evangelists are like vegans.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
Yeah, I saw similar responses like yours in other answers. I guess I didn't see that part in my discussions. The more I know...
LocodraTheCrow@reddit
You'll have to give an example of the conversation, dawg, hide names and all, but "I suggest Linux to non tech-savy people is something that can vary from nice to obnoxious really hard.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
There is a discussion in one of the threads here, but it's now difficult to find. I wasn't expecting my post to have so many responses. Plus, I'm lazy to re-type it again :(
LumenAstralis@reddit
Not animosity towards linux, just animosity towards evangelicals.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
I don't consider myself as an evangelical. Asa matter of fact, not many people know I use Linux. I mention it only if I think it would be a valid solution and not a quick fix.
Christopher876@reddit
Generally when people bring up problems, they don’t actually want a solution. They just want to rant and be annoyed with it.
The only way people get interested in something is if they just happen to see something cool and ask about it. They don’t want someone telling them
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
I came across this more time that I am willing to admit. My opinion was that people needed a solution instead of just venting. I wasn't considering real life frustrations transfer to IT. For me, IT is a place where solutions are a part of a discussion. I learned something new today.
JagerAntlerite7@reddit
Evangelicals never do.
Time-Transition-7332@reddit
I got the same pre-linux with dr-dos, novel-dos, multiuser dos, freedos, ibm-dos was almost acceptable.
... any non-microsoft was just repulsive ...
I also used nec-v20, cyrix, via, amd processors which put me on the outside.
... not intel is just not on ...
all the other computer support shops in town were exclusive microsoft/intel.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
Yeah, you can't beat mainstream. But Linux and ARM in some capacity, aren't that obscure anymore.
Extension-Lychee-365@reddit
The same reason you might react similarly if I recommended BSD over Linux.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
Haha, fair enough. I don;t think I would have the same reaction, though. I am interested in BSD, but just don't have the time to play with it. But I definitely wouldn't react the same way as I the reactions I got.
Anantha_datta@reddit
tbh it’s mostly inertia and fear of breaking stuff. ppl just wanna stick to what they know even if it’s worse also the moment you suggest switching OS, it feels like too much effort for them so they mentally check out.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
I considered that. When I suggest OS change, I'm willing to help in the transition and stand by my suggestion. But I definitely see your point. I guess the person I'm suggesting Linux to, doesn't understand my intentions. Interesting food for thought.
Temagam@reddit
"I see people struggle with Windows but refuse to accept an easier solution."
Linux is not an easier solution; linux provides more privacy, and flexibility to do what you want to do, but it comes at great learning curve.
I just started using Linux mint and I am throughly enjoying it, but would never suggest it is easier than windows.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
If your first OS experience was some version of Windows OS, Linux would seem more complicated, yes.
Windows is more mainstream and that's where its "simplicity" lies. It is a number one OS no doubt. It is very well supported and majority of peoples first exposure to an OS was some kind of Windows experience.
But what if leveled the field and you were starting to learn your ways around OS from scratch? It would be an interesting experiment.
Legitimate_Fig_4096@reddit
This just isn't true. Windows is easy because the interface is fairly intuitive and you can plug in basically anything and expect it to just work.
Desktop Linux is pretty painless for basic web browsing and even gaming now, but the experience falls apart as soon as you want to output to your Sonos or whatever. Even basic things like cloud storage are a complete nightmare unless you buy insync, and people are likely to encounter rclone before they find out that app even exists.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
I agree. It all goes back to a time when IT was still new. MS was a respectable company while Linux was just a bunch of nerds. In the past 30 years, each have followed their own path, but Windows has had a significant influence on Linux. I guess my pain with Windows is mostly because Windows had all this respect and technological advance and they are now ruining it all.
I'm not saying this is why I switched to Linux, but it is a huge part. It doesn't work for me as it previously did. All this compatibility with different devices is mostly manufacturers fault, and MS was a responsible and respectable company so it was a default OS on vast majority of desktop and laptop pcs. That is why majority of people are used to it and switching to Linux is difficult. Compatibility also stems from popularity - if a product covers vast majority of users, it is logical manufacturers would support it. The problem was that they forgot that others exist, with maybe exception of Apple OS.
I'm guessing there is no point in discussing "what if" scenario, but what I want to say is that Linux would be more popular and more supported if more people would start from it. Learning curve would be the same and intuitiveness would mean a different thing for different users.
DizzyCardiologist213@reddit
6 months ahead of you and have used a bunch of distros. I like mint more, esp than win 11. It's less cumbersome.
Son's first PC is ubuntu base - he's never had a windows PC and only did a little bit of 3d printer stuff on his mom's. It took him about four or five hours on linux to have everything he wanted, no help from me. His only interest is playing some games that he can't play on switch2 and 3d print software. I'd say ubuntu is going to stymie a windows user more than mint just due to how little there is to it when you first start. it's super plain.
I was a 30+ year windows only user. Would never find the date on a mac, but figured I'd give myself half an hour a day to make linux usable. I had the first PC that I bought to try it (older dell) wiped, linux installed, and all of the hardware I use for my non-work PC working on it but for one device. In exchange, three expensive devices windows paperweighted (it can't control their power consumption, so it refuses to work with them) work fine on linux, so more than a fair trade. It may have been three or four hours starting to understand how the file system works, partitioning, etc, things I haven't done for decades.
Just approach it like anything else you're learning for the first time.
Biggest hiccup? I had a near dead old win 10 PC and a newer win 11 PC. The newer win 11 PC thwarted every single attempt to burn an ISO and I had to scrape out the win 10PC, wait ages for it to start and operate. It acts like a severely throttled PC even when it's cold. Took about an hour. 10 minutes to grasp the concept of burning an iso to a USB and why it has to be done, and 45 just figuring out why none of the info from AI, google, YT was making win 11 allow iso burning. I still don't know the answer to that, but went through more menu mazes than I care to remember.
oscarcp@reddit
They just either don't know how to express their why, or go with the narrative of Linux for nerds (nowadays the compatibility argument is almost gone except for specialized software, and no, photoshop is not one of them). In most cases I just shut down the conversation as soon as they put up the wall but out of curiosity I've been pushing lately and I've discovered that the reasons are rather ridiculous, one of my employees (we use only Linux in our company) is extremely against Linux (to the point of having rather heated shouting discussions), and until he started to work with us he would spew just nonsense. I pushed and I've discovered that for him "Linux is cr*p, doens't work, it breaks..." actually meant: "I can't run games with Denuvo", just that. In the end, humans gonna human and do whatever they want, so just move on and don't even try, we're better off without those people.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
I'm aware of that and it doesn't surprise me. I guess I just need to get used to the reactions I get. I didn't know that Linux topic is going to provoke the reactions I saw, as it is just an option, just another OS, just another software. But, people have their opinions. Some are expected and some are...weird. I guess I need to lower my tolerance to weird. Thank you for your response, I learned from it.
shponglespore@reddit
In certain online spaces spaces, I often see people dismissively say things like "why don't you just switch to Linux?" as if that's a quick and easy solution to some problem. Most people just want to solve the problem they have right now, and switching to a whole new operating system they've never used before is inviting a bunch of new problems. People are probably reacting as much to what they've heard about Linux in the past as they are about what you're saying at the moment, and a lot of what they've heard is likely pretty condescending.
DoubleOwl7777@reddit
for me the switch to daily driving it was quick and easy. installed kubuntu (now use debian as i am used to it) 4h before college lectures started where i needed that device. and that was including backing up the windows install. was it a smart move to do it this rushed? probably not. but i have also been using various distros over the years on the side, just never daily drove it.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
I guess I have ignored the fact that someone else might have gotten to them first and created a bad experience. That would make sense.
As for quick and easy solutions, I always start with simple stuff - so many problems were solved by just checking if the cable was correctly plugged in xD
The people I talked about Linux were ones that obviously had OS problems, ones with financial or copyright issues and it wasn't out of the blue. In these cases, Linux is a valid option. Or am I wrong?
docpark@reddit
. Linux is like manual transmission for the uninitiated.
DoubleOwl7777@reddit
*the manual transmission in North America. elsewhere driving manual is normal.
r3volts@reddit
And recommending the change to people who are happy enough with what they are used to is equally silly.
In over 20 years of using Linux, I've never once in that time recommended to anyone that they swap from windows or Mac to Linux. I've recommended distros to other Linux users, but never to windows users.
Imagine being just a normal car owner. Your car gets you to work, holds the groceries, gets you around. You notice it's been a bit sluggish lately, and when your car enthusiast friend comes over you mention this and they start recommending you stop driving automatic and drive manual.
People who will like Linux will find it themselves. People who use their computer in the same way that a non car enthusiast uses their car, that is as a means to an end, aren't going to give a shit about your niche suggestions. They just want a computer that works. You could give them an exhaustive list of why your manual transmission/Linux distro is better, and at the end of the day they will probably just run their car/computer into the ground and then go buy another automatic car/windows computer.
PLYoung@reddit
They are either afraid of change or think Linux will be too different from Windows or harder to use. They might come around eventually with things like SteamOS and Linux in general being in the news and on youtube more often now.
killersteak@reddit
I consider it but don't say anything to them. Yes its a machine that originally ran windows 7, upgraded to 10, and struggles on a hdd with the constant services and defender updates. But its also a Toshiba and I'm gonna have to fight to get that trackpad happening, and the F keys, and..
Feeling_Photograph_5@reddit
Yeah, the normies do not know or care what Linux is. I'm actually surprised that desktop Linux has as much market penetration as it does, I rarely meet anyone who could even consider using Linux, outside my circle of tech co-workers.
lnxguy@reddit
Non-Linux users are just losers and they don't know it. Get a shirt or hat with anything Linux on it and draw them out.
Bitter_Lab_475@reddit
I mean, I use Linux and I am afraid to find other Linux users because I am afraid that either that is the only thing they wanna talk about, repeat the word "microslop" every 10 seconds like they live in IRL Reddit or tell me I am using the wrong distro.
Does that ever happen? no... but the fear is there, and for good reason >.>
InevitablePresent917@reddit
I have met a surprising number of people, both in the tech world and not, who react to Linux negatively because they perceive it as “communist” or “socialist”, built by a bunch of hairy leftists who want to eliminate profit from society. Aside from any discussions of the relative merits of communism or socialism, I’ve always found that a bizarre conclusion.
Opposite-Quail-8628@reddit
Especially when most corporate servers are running Linux.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
Actually that idea came to my mind, but here where I live, communism isn't much of a topic, so I disregarded it. But I can see where you're coming from.
XCapitan_1@reddit
People are irrational, what to do...
Opposite-Quail-8628@reddit
I’ve had an all Linux household for a while and love it. We dumped Windows 10 when Windows 10 dumped us, but were using Linux long before that. We use Mint, MX Linux, Manjaro, and our new favorite Fedora 44 which is fantastic!
kidz94@reddit
When i notice people downplaying linux, i counter every argument untill they give up. I've seen c# developers act like windows is the superior platform. Most people are scared of things they dont know. For tech savy people you'd expect curiosity in cool software or hardware. But you could be very surprised by how much people are stuck in their ways
LocationReady788@reddit
A me interessano i miei dati e la loro interoperabilità, a prescindere dal sistema operativo che si usa il resto non conta nulla.
bitcraft@reddit
I’ve been using Linux and lightly advocating for it since the 90s. I’ve never met animosity or “repulsiveness”. Indifference maybe.
The truth is most, and I mean like 99% of normals out there, have never heard of Linux and they don’t care.
If you say they are repulsed by it, I don’t believe it is because they have heard of it. They haven’t.
I don’t know you, but it sounds like you are aggressive, or pushy, or “preachy” about it and you don’t realize it.
Because framing of opinions matters and if the people you talk to about it are strongly objecting to some niche thing, I can’t help but to think that the are objecting to how you are presenting the issue.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
Interesting point. I really do try to be respectful and try to cover as much troubleshooting options I can. Maybe my enthusiasm for IT got them on a wrong foot and not mention of Linux. I'll have to pay attention to that. Thanks for the viewpoint.
bitcraft@reddit
FWIW, I feel like people outside IT don’t want to know much about how there tech works.
It would be like explaining where sausage comes from and its ingredients. At some point most people just want to be ignorant and not think about it.
Good on you for trying though! Year of the Linux desktop is coming soon…any day now :)
DaftPump@reddit
Oftentimes such discourse is from those who cannot place where or how linux belongs in a computer ecosystem. No point arguing with the uninformed.
KnowZeroX@reddit
It could simply be that they don't know much about the topic and disengaging because they were only there to gripe and are not interested in changing an entire os to one they don't know.
Linux also over the years created a reputation of not something normal users would use because it is known to be used more on servers rather than desktop, some may even take it as bragging.
And yes, there will be people who feel it is out of their comfort zone.
Apprehensive_Milk520@reddit
Linux might as well be a curse word, honestly. I've had the same response so I never mention GNU/Linux unless I'm knowingly in the presence of others who use it and appreciate it's value...
token_curmudgeon@reddit
People fear the unknown.
Inertia causes them to rationalize that Microsoft's abuse might not be as bad as learning a new system.
I've seen a relative run away from Firefox back to the advertising company's browser. Changing the wallpaper or anything for that matter is some awful showstopper for him.
aloobhujiyaay@reddit
most people don’t hate Linux, they just don’t want to change what already works
Mandalord104@reddit
Dude, they are just uninterested. Dont use the big word repulsiveness, animosity...
TheElderGregg@reddit
Those are big words? Did you drop out of the first grade?
Mandalord104@reddit
You have reading comprehension? Go back to primary school
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
If they are uninterested, I can understand and I'm not pushing it. I mention it just as an option without any obligation to act upon it. When I mention it, it's always with the context and related to the issue we are discussing.
I'm not going through streets yelling repent or some such xD
Mandalord104@reddit
You just said you mention it just as an option without any obligation to act upon it. Then why are you surprised that they immediately disengage? They have no obligation to continue the discussion about linux.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
True and I usually don't continue with Linux topic but the conversation takes an awkward turn. The reaction is what surprises me.
Razathorn@reddit
Quit suggesting it. It's hard. Tell them you use it , you love it, and if they need help to reach out. You're probably putting them on the defensive. "Do you have a moment to talk about our lord and savior linus torvalds?"
ronaldtrip@reddit
You sure you want to help? I've learned that average IT help is a thankless endeavor. People tend to treat you like a paid monkey without the pay and 99% of the time it's futzing with Windows, because Linux is not on the menu.
These days I feign ignorance and say that I use Linux, so I don't know anything about Windows. (Not entirely untrue, as I only use a corporately managed Windows for work.) It gives me a non-threatening point of conversation ("Yeah, Linux suits my needs well.") and none of the hassle.
Razathorn@reddit
Yes. If you don't want to help, then you keep your mouth shut about it, that's my opinion.
_o0Zero0o_@reddit
Three things to blame: Tribalism, Windows being the standard for pretty much all of pc history for the average user, and fear of the unknown like you said, OP
knowone1313@reddit
I grew up on windows and it was just always the case that whatever I needed to do could easily be done in windows and it would be a challenge in Linux. Occam's razor suggests that the user stick with windows in basically every case.
They need to learn and become familiar with this complex scary new thing which could take a long time, and to be fair it's like doing a brain transplant because one of your fingers isn't working...
I'm now mostly working and doing daily life on Linux, however there are still applications that can't run on Linux so I'm stuck in-between.
JagerAntlerite7@reddit
"The first rule of ~~Fight Club~~ Linux is: You do not talk about ~~Fight Club~~ Linux."
LesStrater@reddit
Yep, I remember the rumdumbs standing in line outside Best Buy (before it opened) on the day Windows Vista came out. They HAD to get it that very first day! Those are the type of people you are dealing with...
rayjaymor85@reddit
To be fair, we didn't know it would be shit at the time.
Windows XP was a great operating system. I still miss it.
LesStrater@reddit
Not the point--The point is: Standing in line before a store opens to get an OS on the first day it's available??? (DUH)
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
We must pre-order digital copies of games as they will run out of them soon! xD
Dazzling-Emu-6054@reddit
I think you see the same reaction to a lot of things that aren’t considered “the norm.”
There are plenty of people who are vegan, or run, or do CrossFit, or have gardens, or XYZ, who are not preachy about it, but catch flack from people who (a) have unfortunately encountered the preachy, evangelist types, (b) just feel like “those people are weird, or (c) know they’re just being lazy/unwilling to try.
There are probably other reasons I haven’t thought of. TLDR: It’s out of “norm,” so disliked.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
Yeah, even in this whole thread, there are people who have accused me of preaching and being evangelical without knowing anything about me. Someone got to them before I did, I guess.
Time_IsRelative@reddit
I work in IT. Our environment is predominantly Windows.
I've never run into any issues mentioning that I use Linux.
However , I don't suggest that people I talk to would be better off switching to an entirely different OS for personal use, and I suspect that's where you're going wrong.
I'm not sure what problems their presenting to you, but "throw away everything you know about using your computer, and learn a brand new OS" is rarely advice that will be well received.
There's a line between listening sympathetically and proselytizing. Sounds like you're crossing that line pretty regularly.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
I might have learned something about myself here. Tbh, I mention Linux just as one of the solutions to their problems without any obligation on acting upon it. Maybe I was misunderstood or I misunderstood them.
A concrete example was a colleague from work. He has constant problems with his laptop where he, at one point, had to fix his MBR. These problems started when he "upgraded" to Win11. He's a tech savvy person and the tools we use at work are all cross platform: QGIS and web based. From my point of view, one of his solutions would be to switch to Linux.
When I mentioned Linux the last time, he just packed up quickly and left the Teams session with an excuse he could have pulled at any time. I'm confused by this reaction. I realize he would have to change his work flow slightly, but the benefits would outweigh the obstacles. Or maybe I'm seeing this in a wrong way?
Time_IsRelative@reddit
When someone is discussing problems they're working through, there are generally some unspoken "scopes" that are taken as given.
If I'm complaining to you that sitting in rush hour traffic every morning on the way to work is frustrating, I suspect you'd generally understand that saying things like "oh, I have this route that I take that avoids a lot of the worst of it" is likely to be appreciated as helpful, even if that particular route doesn't work for the person you're talking to (e.g. they live in the opposite direction).
Saying "I come in to work an hour earlier so I avoid the worst of it" is probably less helpful, because that's a pretty disruptive solution... but it's still within the area where most people probably wouldn't be annoyed by you mentioning it.
Saying "you should stop driving altogether, and instead walk or take public transportation", however, is more likely to be seen as generally unhelpful. The implicit scope of "I hate sitting in traffic" is "I drive my car to work." Taking a different route or altering your schedule is still within that scope, but suggesting alternate modes of transportation ignores that implicit scope. The person you're talking to knows that walking and public transportation are options. They've already weighed those options and decided to not take them. You bringing them up is going to come across as patronizing, bragging, or otherwise annoying.
It's the same thing when someone is saying "my Windows computer is having a problem." They chose a Windows system. If they're tech savvy, presumably they're aware that Linux exists, but they already decided not to use it. You saying "instead of solving the boot problem with Windows, one option is to erase Windows and move to Linux" is no different than saying "oh, you don't like sitting in traffic? Sell your car and walk or take the bus!" Yes, it's a valid suggestion, and yes, it solves the problem, and yes, there are other advantages involved beyond solving the immediate problem, but making the suggestion implies that the other person has done something wrong by not deciding to do that in the first place.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
I don't mind people refusing my suggestions and "sitting in traffic for hours", I mean, I'm not the one who's sitting. I found a solution that works for me, suggested it to you, you don't accept it - everything is ok in my world.
I try not to sound patronizing or condescending as much as I can, but I cannot control how people will react to what I say. I find it surprising when people (over)react to a suggestion that doesn't look so extreme to me. I guess it works both ways.
But now we are going into depths of human psychology, and I don't want this discussion to turn into a philosophical one more than it already is.
What I learned from the answers here, is that it is possible that someone before me might have already spoiled the Linux experience for the person I'm talking to. It's just one of the possibilities and I learned a lot from this thread. I guess self adjusting is in order.
Naive_Comfortable517@reddit
People get weird when you suggest changing their whole OS because it sounds like work. Even if it's easier long term, their brain hears "you need to learn something new" and shuts down. Also some tried Linux years ago, had a bad experience, and assume it's still the same.
I've seen the same thing. You're not doing anything wrong. Most people just want their computer to work the way they already know, even if that way is broken.
whosdr@reddit
On that front, perhaps it's easier to just drop in hints now and then about what you can do on Linux. Like if somebody said they used a tool to solve a problem, you can just interject with "Ah, I have tool on Linux that I use for that too." or "Yeah, I use that on my Linux system all the time."
Plant the seed as it were, let them know it has the capabilities they need without trying to force it upon them. And when they eventually get frustrated enough with what they're using, they might even come to you for advice on making a switch.
Naive_Comfortable517@reddit
Makes sense. People get defensive about their OS like it's a personal identity thing. I've stopped bringing it up unless someone's really struggling and asks directly. Less hassle that way.
doomiestdoomeddoomer@reddit
People hear 'Linux' and immediately think 'hackerman' with screens of unintelligible code, nothing but terminals and probably only used by criminals and hackers...
That's the impression I get from most people.
natermer@reddit
A lot of people think that it is beneath them to put effort into learning something or doing something they don't absolutely have to.
Like they look down on the mechanics that fix their cars because those are "just workers" while they themselves have office jobs and are deep in debt to a university degree... as if that makes them special (it doesn't). Yet they couldn't even tell you the difference between a carburetor or fuel injection, nor could they rotate their tires or change their oil.
Which, very literally, means they are proud of being ignorant of very basic information about cars despite the fact they spend tens of thousands of dollars on them and depend on them.
It is the same way with any tech. Or anything really. Lots of people don't realize just how dumb they are.
rarsamx@reddit
I think you are describing an "actually..." That they've heard and discarded.
We tend to be a passionate group and for most people the computer is just a tool. If the tool they have works, why change?
Holiday_Management60@reddit
You're experiencing the same problem vegans get. the stereotype of the "preachy vegan" is so strong that even when its totally relevant to the discussion, the moment you start talking about the benefits, people won't care, you're the preachy vegan/Linux user they've heard so much about.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
Sure, stereotypes can be an issue. But if you came to me about a problem, you're asking me to provide you with solutions, and then you ignore some of them. I agree that there are Linux users that share culty treats with vegans. But if you don't see through your car windshield, and I tell you that you need to wash your car, but you don't like that, am I a car wash "preacher"?
Holiday_Management60@reddit
Oh yeah nah it makes zero sense. I'm vegan and I'm generally the one to get preached to about how vegans are preachy. I've never randomly been told that Linux users are, but the stereotype is 100% there.
DizzyCardiologist213@reddit
not a developer, so keep that in mind. I get more from people flag waving for mac than windows, talking about "the ecosystem", etc.
Dropped windows entirely after >30 years about 6 months ago and other than managed desktop at work, everything in the house is linux now. Kids, wife, everything.
I'm sure there are developers who use windows, but the IT people I know for for schools and usually use macs (they don't have to pay for them...they're "trialing" devices constantly and keeping them probably after the schools pay for them). the only google EEs I know are managers. I think they are more like true managers there and not someone on a team who is also doing the routine work and called a "manager" to avoid paying for a real manager. Whatever they use would be preference.
BinkReddit@reddit
Some people are not ready to switch, and that's fine. I used to be one of those people.
You might want to consider relegating Windows to a virtual machine so you can stay in Linux full time and not have the jarring effect that's required with dual boating. Nowadays you can also virtualize your GPU so your virtual machine can perform better there as well if needed.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
I know about some workarounds regarding proprietary software, one having a remote Windows machine I log in to for Windows specific apps, but I'm fine with how things are. GPU virtualization is new to me and I might look more into it.
Vladraconis@reddit
I have dual boot.
I have just tried installing CachyOS again ( my latest distro ), as I changed my laptop and storage config.
Fail. Pacman cannot be installed. Is it a known issue? Yes. Is there a solution? A few, none of them worked. Is it a network problem? Nope. Is it a ISO problem? Exact same ISO worked flawlessly a month ago. So I started messing with the live image, updating keyrings and mirrors priority, editing files, nothing worked. I had to edit the live install and still nothing. A live boot that worked just fine a month ago. Do others have the same problem? Yes, many. For some, one solution or the other worked. For others, like myself, none.
I had Manjaro before. It crapped itself with kernel 6.14 because support for the GTX 1660 Max-Q family was dropped. And before it did it was a headache to get Optimus / Prime to actually work and to be able to switch the GPU as desired by me.
Before that I had Mint. Did not, in any way, want to properly wotk with my config.
Before that I had Ubuntu. Same.
Did I encounter any of these problems on Windows? No.
Is my Windows full of bloatware and does it report everything to Microsoft? Also no.
I use Revo Unistaller and O&O ShutUp! and BAM! clean Windows, no bloatware, no Copilot, no Cortana, no data sent to Microslop. Took me an hour to clean everything. It takes me about as much to set up a Linux install.
Most people don't want to have to edit the install live boot just to be able to install the OS.
Most people don't want to search the internet to find exactly how to set up partitions by hand, during installation, for the best performance.
Most people don't want to use CLI just to install a software that is compatible with that distro but does not show in software explorer ( or whatever it's called in each distro ).
Most people don't want to be forced to use cli just to properly update their GPU driver.
Most people don't want to be forced to install sensor drivers and tools, through CLU, just to be able to tweak the fan curve.
Most people don't want to spend half their OS use in terminal just to update the OS and get somethibg actually working properly.
Linux is not yet for most people.
No matter how inlove you are with it, no matter how easy it is for you to use Terminal all the time and have granular control over everything, the harsh truth is that this is not easy for most people.
Most people want their OS to just work and then solve most problems with a few clicks.
And everyone can have a very good and snappy Windows experience with just those two tools I mentioned.
So, why bother with all the potential headache of a linux when one can have a really good Windows experience?
For some of us, the answer is easy : because we want more, because we are enthusiasts, because we want customisation and control and privacy beyond what Windows can offer.
For most people, the answer is also very easy : it's not worth it. And they are not wrong.
Linux is not for everyone, and people need to stop being offended that not everyone enjoys updating and compiling and purging and compiling and checking dependencies and deleting certain packages and recompiling and installing new ones and recompiling and so on.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
I see your point and I agree. That is why I don't force Linux or mention it out of the blue. Even if they agree to switch the OS, I am ready to offer my help and knowledge. Not everyone should go to the depths you described and, sure, Linux is not for everyone.
The reactions I was expecting would have been rejection, no thanks, pass or something similar. I can respect that. But the ones I got surprised me.
There was a good point in one of the answers where person who answered said that someone has gotten to people I was discussing Linux with, before and ruined their experience. Hence the reaction.
This post of mine has been a true well of knowledge.
Vladraconis@reddit
This exactly.
The Linux community is ..... not the greatest, to put it lightly. It's full of people who only want to feel superior to others and use Linux as their "This is why I am way better and you are a dumb idiot sheep" argument. And, again, I am being nice in my description.
Defiant_Put5395@reddit
Imagine waking up, having coffee and cookies for breakfast, and go to work for 20, 30, 40 years. Then someone tells you "actually, it would be healthier if you ate a bit more protein for breakfast, like eggs and maybe orange juice instead of coffee"
But wait, coffee and cookies is your routine, your daily breakfast, you work on coffee and cookies, why would you change your breakfast? Also, everyone has coffee and cookies for breakfast, John is weird for having eggs and juice, John may be wrong
That's pretty much the deal here
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
I see where you're coming from.
Here's a little twist on your post, nhf ;)
Imagine waking up, having coffee and cookies for breakfast, and go to work for 20, 30, 40 years. Then you realize you have bad indigestion and often acid reflux. ~~Someone~~ A doctor tells you "actually, it would be healthier if you ate a bit more protein for breakfast, like eggs and maybe orange juice instead of coffee"
But wait, coffee and cookies is your routine, your daily breakfast, you work on coffee and cookies, why would you change your breakfast? Also, everyone has bad indigestion, John is weird for having eggs and juice, John may be wrong
xuteloops@reddit
Conservatism Bias. People get set in their ways and new means different which means bad.
Beolab1700KAT@reddit
People who "work in the tec industry" are usually threatened by things they're not qualified to do. Whatever that is.
Of course they're protective of their incomes.
SmurfingRedditBtw@reddit
If someone is looking for help with a problem, suggesting that they should change operating system usually isn't going to be very useful. Chances are there is an easier, more direct solution to their problem, since changing OS is quite a big step with more considerations and a learning curve.
Even if Linux is overall a better option for what they are doing, people aren't likely to change OS on a whim when facing some specific issue, it would be a culmination of issues and frustrations that might push them over the edge eventually.
Plus they also need the confidence that they aren't going to lose out on a lot of other things that Linux doesn't offer. Like you mention, you still dual boot Windows because certain programs don't run on Linux. That's going to be a deal breaker for most people already.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
I addressed the first part of your answer in Edit 2 above.
I do dual dual boot and I don't see why would that be a deal breaker. I won't suggest Linux to someone who is obviously dependent on proprietary software. There are much simpler solutions to that, even within Windows. I would even discourage people from Linux if I saw it would do more harm than good. I actually lead with dual boot and explain that my experience in Linux is much better than in Windows. Show and tell, when possible.
Saltkrakan01@reddit
One reason is, people don't know how is current status of Linux. The think it's like 20 years back, a lot of work and efford and still half of things not working...
bawng@reddit
I don't find that people are repulsed. The non-tech savvy might be uninterested, and the somewhat tech-savvy are more afraid it will be too difficult and the tech-savvy are already on Linux, or in some cases Macs.
Yacoob83@reddit
Some of the tech savvy might have already tried Linux and found it not to fit their purposes
bawng@reddit
There might exist such people, yes, but I was talking about people I know.
I don't know anyone tech savvy who use Windows by choice. But yes, I'm sure there are lots of people out there who do that.
phobug@reddit
It's understandable people don't want to put more effort that needed to solve their current problem. And for normal people linux is admittedly effort. So here is a cheat for you, only discus and suggest linux as a solution to someone you know has re-installed their PC (preferably with a year or so). That is the bar in my experience above which the effort to run Linux is not immediately off putting.
In anticipation comments about Live booting, I know, people still don't care.
Hope this helps.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
It helps. These are some of the situations where I discussed Linux as an option. From what I learned from other answers, some of tech savvy people are savvy only with Windows, which is fine. But their reaction was still a surprise to me.
phobug@reddit
There is a lot of FUD on the topic of data loss. Even experienced tech people get anxiety on the topic of "recover from backup" because mostly they don't test their backups and thus data loss is always a real risk.
dan_dan_deo@reddit
They might like Linux if they tried, but that doesn’t mean they are willing to take the time to change everything that works just to solve a specific problem.
Tech-savvy doesn’t mean not resilient to changes.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
I'm not talking about a specific problem. These were obvious OS issues, problems with finances, copyright or old laptop syndromes, in which Linux is a valid option. When I install an OS I don't change it for years. That is because I too like things that just work and don't want to tinker with it all the time. Hence I chose Debian.
Yeah, I found that out too.
VladimiroPudding@reddit
I think you might be misinterpreting the conversation. Some people just want a solution for their problem.
If I engage on a conversation about a mechanical issue I am having with my car with someone else and they begin to talk and talk how I should buy a new car instead I would also try to change subject because the other person missed the point.
7lhz9x6k8emmd7c8@reddit
I struggle with Linux because can't get a font a clear as on Windows.
imgly@reddit
Hi, I'm just reacting about something you said : you're still using Windows because of a few softwares. I may have a solution for you. I had the same issue with affinity, a photoshop-like software not very well ported on wine. So i had to use either Windows, or my MacBook. And then I had an idea : in my computer, I have a dedicated GPU, and I also have the integrated GPU in my processor that I never use on Linux, so why not make a GPU passthrought of the integrated GPU in a Windows virtual machine ? Long story short, it worked. I'm now able to start my windows VM on my linux and have hardware acceleration with my integrated GPU.
It can be a bit hard to do, but with some google research and AI conversation, I was able to make it right. If you have a dedicated GPU and integrated GPU (or two separate GPU) you should give it a try !
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
Sadly, Ryzen 5900X doesn't have an integrated gpu. It's a good hack though.
imgly@reddit
Yeah I see. My previous processor didn't have iGPU neither.
Lazybonez2015@reddit
I have great animosity toward windows 11.
gosand@reddit
I think they most likey don't know anything about it, and therefore can't offer an opinion. It is foreign to them. Not all tech people are the same or are into tech in the same way. For what it's worth, not everyone is like that and it's been changing for years now. YMMV, as they say.
Back in 2015 I worked at a company that was a 100% windows shop. We were having issues with a customer issue and their data load with a large csv file. (5MM rows) Nobody could open the file with Excel or notepad. I installed cygwin and opened it with vim, and spent the next few days creating/editing large files to troubleshoot the issue. They were shocked and thought I was a wizard. They also teased me about using the command line.
Fast forward a few years, and a new CEO came onboard - and wanted to build a new product in the cloud. So it was AWS, Linux, VMs, git, etc. Everyone struggled hard because they were Windows-minded and didn't want to learn the terminal at all. It was easy for me. I ended up writing scripts to do our code checkouts/deployments, Jenkins pipelines, and various other things. I wasn't a developer, I managed the testing teams. It was a fun place, if something needed done you could just do it.
I don't know what solutions you provide, but just keep offering Linux if it's a viable solution. Or if it's software, consider using terms like "cross-platform" in order to reach more people. Most of all, don't fret about it. Linux isn't going away, and someday they may come around.
Crazy-Tangelo-1673@reddit
I've never talked anyone into embracing open source. Most people don't understand it or dismiss it because its "free" and therefore must be inferior.
Any tech person I've ever talked to that quickly dismisses Linux or BSD is subsequently regarded as = not actually a tech person
Freyarmr@reddit
I shared the same feeling. I used to have dual boot for years until 3 months ago I realized that Windows was not an option for me any longer. Installed Ubuntu as the only OS and never look back. Happier now!
flatline000@reddit
I usually only recommend Linux if someone has a spare machine that they're wondering what they could do with. Or if they specifically mention wanting to leave Windows.
dgm9704@reddit
Some tech people take pride and even base their personality on things they know and understand. Telling them it’s not the only or best option hits them too deep to be rational or reasonable. It’s cult mentality. Same with religion, sports, music. Some people can’t separate themselves from the things they do. Telling someone like that to try another operating system is the same as to tell them they are a bad person and should change their personality.
Just don’t. You wouldn’t talk to some flat earther about about maths and geometry and geography etc. because it’s pointless. If they ask you what you use or how you can of course give a short and concise answer. Otherwise keep it to yourself, even better walk away from such people or company cultures.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
I guess my suggestion hits them the same way as their reaction hits me. I'm pro choice and if there is an options that is better, I am willing to switch. I now realize not everyone is like that.
StylishJolt@reddit
have you ever talked to your therapist about linux?
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
She converted xD
MatchingTurret@reddit
There is your problem. Don't.
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
Haha, fair enough, but that was taken out of context xD
Latlanc@reddit
Cause loonix is a cult.
Infiniti_151@reddit
then why are you on a cult's sub?
Charming_Bison9073@reddit
So are you
ne0n008@reddit (OP)
You're generalizing now
NPVT@reddit
Plan9
Optimal_Guava5390@reddit
fear of unknown, fear of leaving the "safe zone", lack of knowledge. or something completely different, could be all or any of the all 3 and of course depends on the person. Also Linux is againts the tide for assumed reasons for many, so if you're arent in an echo where another peer uses it, then you've none to bounce off, you almost need to have either the need and or knowledge or the motivation to see the power of Linux for your world. For many being shown that something isnt right
rn1racl3@reddit
Most people doesn't like learning something new, and especially doesn't like leaving their comfort zone. Another words, majority of people are lazy asses)
Nevyn_Hira@reddit
I tend to try and approach this sort of thing with humour:
"Stretch them eye rolling muscles because I'm about to say something that'll make them eyes roll a whole lot. I'm pretty sure Linux is a really viable solution to this problem because...."
"Man that sounds really hard to solve in Windows. If only there were a viableLinux alternative".
etc.