Porsche steps out from Bugatti and Rimac (Porsche had 50+% control)

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Asterfly@reddit

That's on track from their CEO, took all the incompetence from McLaren to Porsche

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blauerlauch@reddit

Please enlighten me, I do not know the context.

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Common_Turnover9226@reddit

Michael Leiters, current Porsche CEO came from McLaren.

The poster seems to be getting at the usual McLaren bashing, ignoring that Leiters was also Ferrari, and actually returns to Porsche where the majority of his career was, developing the Macan and Cayenne.

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Montjo17@reddit

I mean to be fair Ferrari could also take some bashing for their direction in recent years! Looking at his CV he was there from 2014 to 2022 - otherwise known as the period in which Ferrari lost their way

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agnaddthddude@reddit

lost their way? we got 448 and TDF12 in those periods. those are like the best decade old Ferrairs on the market

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Montjo17@reddit

Yeah, they are.... and when were they released? At the end of his tenure, or right at the beginning? Now read your comment again - the best Ferrari's in the last decade were the ones released a decade ago, right around the time he joined the company....

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trail-g62Bim@reddit

I mean to be fair Ferrari could also take some bashing for their direction in recent years!

Is there a car company left that people don't like to bash?

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BirdmanLove@reddit

Mazda.

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trail-g62Bim@reddit

Not lately. People have been bashing the new infotainment.

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the_herbo_swervo@reddit

I never hear any bad things about Koeniggsegg

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Dunaii4@reddit

I reckon Aston's been on a roll recently.

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RedAero@reddit

BMW engines, no thanks

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agray20938@reddit

It's still an AMG-built engine. I mean a classic Aston V12 sounds awesome, but there's a reason Aston is still dealing with depreciation issues and a reputation for being unreliable. M177 engines are reliable (and are feasible to maintain and repair), have a pretty good sound, and still make big fast.

There is a reason Aston uses AMG engines, Lotus uses Toyota engines, and a Mclaren used a BMW engine (and every modern Mclaren uses the exact same V8) -- developing a new engine in-house is insanely expensive and carries a lot more risk of it being unreliable.

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Montjo17@reddit

And that Mclaren V8 still isn't an in-house design, but rather one they bought from Nissan!

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knight_prince_ace@reddit

Really? Huh.

You learn something new everyday

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Dunaii4@reddit

Would you have preferred they kept using AJ stuff? (I lowkey would have loved to see that).

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Habhabs@reddit

Except for their finances lmao

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TangerineBroad4604@reddit

Not financially from what I understand

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trolllord45@reddit

Just not the F1 team

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Dunaii4@reddit

Fair, I don't really follow that.

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ThatGuyFromCanadia@reddit

Genesis

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OmniaCausaFiunt@reddit

Still a Hyundai.

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ThatGuyFromCanadia@reddit

Just like a Bugatti is a VW

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OmniaCausaFiunt@reddit

Not sure how that matters. The question you were answering is if there's a car company people don't like to bash. You provided an answer, and I countered with how that company is bashed.

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ThatGuyFromCanadia@reddit

Correct, I was just invalidating your premise is all.

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hhs2112@reddit

I guess that makes your lexus a daihatsu...

🙄

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Kichigai@reddit

So you're saying we might get a glitzed up Lexus Wake?

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OmniaCausaFiunt@reddit

That's not really what the discussion is about.

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devastationz@reddit

Tell those fuckers at Hyundai/Kia/Genesis to release the N.Vision 74 with the power train from the Ioniq 5 N, Elantra N, or Stinger GT2

but beyond that their design team has been killing it

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Tbro100@reddit

Tell those fuckers to stop struggling with basic car features first.

They killing something alright, and its whatever is in the rear seats of a new Palisade.

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Furryyyy@reddit

It's absurd they haven't found a fix for the ICCU issue after so long and so many failures. An Ioniq would be the perfect first EV for me, but I can't take the risk of that kind of failure for my only car, even if they extended the warranty on it.

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CoolBeance_@reddit

Nuh uh! Genesis stinks!

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argent_pixel@reddit

I'd argue it was right after that. 2014 - 2022 gave us the F12, 812, LaFerrari, the quirky but interesting FF/GTC4 and the SP3 was unveiled in 2021.

I think it's been pretty much all downhill since the SP3 announcement.

The SF90 and 269 are both ugly IMO and both hybrids. The Purosangue lost most of the qurkiness of the previous four seaters. The Daytona homage design language on the Amalfi and 12Cilindri sucks. It's bland as fuck. The F80 feels like a "smash in case of emergency" product made out of obligation rather than "how do we out do 'The Ferrari'?".

And the most recent efforts? Spitting on the name of the Testarossa with that new SF90 abomination and an EV SUV with a 3rd gen iPad slapped inside of it on a swivel.

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flyingmoose1314@reddit

Ferrari stock went from about $50 to about $200 in that same time. It sounds like, from a shareholder perspective, he was a great Ferrari executive.

Lost their way while the stock quadruples is definitely a forum/fan perspective, but it explains why shareholders are comfortable with him.

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S3baman@reddit

Except Ferrari was named multiple times during that period the world's strongest brand. We can debate on the esthetics and some design choices, but the way the company was managed cattered to their primary audience.

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mintz41@reddit

Doubled sales, took them public and their stock price went in one direction that entire time - up. Yeah, he did an awful job

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6158675309@reddit

Yes, nearly doubling sales in that period is “losing their way”.

Maybe you mean the strategic shift to increase volume. But, if that was the strategy then the guy helped execute it pretty well.

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NoctD@reddit

Porsche needs a true car guy not empty suit at the helm - Mr SUV is definitely not the answer for them.

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Plyphon@reddit

If it wasn’t for Mr SUV Porsche likely would not be here today.

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bc10551@reddit

Idk why this reads very much like a bot ngl

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Common_Turnover9226@reddit

I reread it back to myself and thought the same tbh

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PRSArchon@reddit

Are you implying Rimac or Bugatti was earning Porsche money? I find that very hard to believe.

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S3baman@reddit

Rimac is purely an R&D initiative, and Bugatti is an image/brand recognition venture. Neither will make Porsche a ton of money compared to the losses they have in the group.

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PRSArchon@reddit

Both only cost a ton off money.

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mach1alfa@reddit

Some people just fail up

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Occhrome@reddit

The older I get the truer this is.

Some of my coworkers are constantly astounded without how incompetent some of the higher ups are. They aren’t dumb but they certainly aren’t fit for their job.

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strongmanass@reddit

You think Michael Leiters arrived as Porsche brand CEO and immediately brokered a deal to sell off the group's stake in Bugatti-Rimac?

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Boundish91@reddit

Why on earth would Porsche hire him? Have they not done their research?

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devastationz@reddit

I’m sure me, a redditor, has more knowledge to appoint the CEO of Porsche more than their board of directors.

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Intel_Oil@reddit

Indeed, i mean how could they hire the guy that developed the Macan and Cayenne, the Cars that earned Porsche the most money, saving them and the Brand while also funding their "Go Race" Hobby.

Surely has to be an awful choice. /s

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NISMO1968@reddit

That's on track from their CEO, took all the incompetence from McLaren to Porsche

Right, one doomed automaker company in a career isn’t nearly enough, let’s make it a couple!

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AnonymousEngineer_@reddit

That draws a line under one of the signature projects of the Piech era Volkswagen Group.

I wonder how Bugatti will complete the Tourbillon without access to VW Group's frankly massive engineering resources and engineering base, not to mention their bank account. Sure Rimac has some runs on the board, but there is an expectation that comes with Bugatti that doesn't exist from a newly spun up EV company.

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costryme@reddit

The VW Group had very little to do with the Tourbillon anymore.

The Tourbillon's chassis is made with Rimac tech (it's an hybrid drivetrain), and the design team for the car (inside and outside) was not in Wolfsburg anymore like for the Veyron and Chiron.

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AnonymousEngineer_@reddit

I imagine they're going to need to lean pretty heavily on Cosworth to complete the design and engineering of the V16, though.

Sure, Cosworth know their way around an engine, but losing Porsche's technical resources must be a blow.

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Foxtrot-0scar@reddit

losing Porsche's technical resources must be a blow.

Not really there are some fantastic firms in England that can build stuff at a fraction of the cost. RML, Prodrive,Lanzante,TWR,Ilmor etc are all top notch.

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ProjectZeus4000@reddit

The car has been dropping cjg around for months.

On what way do people think the ownership change is going to affect this?

The Tourbillon has been under development by buggati rimac, in Croatia, for years.

Porsche were a minority stakeholder and the Tourbillon was engineered outside of VW group parts bins, standards , and finances.

Buggati havent been financed and bankrolled by VW since 20 years ago

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jonatizzle@reddit

I saw a video about repairing a Chiron, and even that was full of VW parts..Audi A3 airbags for example. Bugatti has definitely benefitted from their attachment to VW very recently not 20 years ago.

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ProjectZeus4000@reddit

The chriron was launched 10 years ago. It was based off of the veyron.

Bolide and mistral are also off that platform. Yes more recent cars have been built using VW parts but VW sold it to Porsche on 2021, and po have been a minority owner ever since. The Tourbillon platforms which all future cars still follow from is a separate development.

The 20 years comment was about the finance. The original veyron famously took huge investment from VW group and the original car lost money.

Since then though VW hasn't been bankrolling them, buggati had been selling £5m cars off the original platform, and after diesel gate VW didn't put anything into Bugatti, hence no second car like the Atlantic concept.

Buggati had been having to make a profit ever since then and this deal doesn't change that, it will help as per the 2021 deal, before Bugatti had to compete with core brands for investment, like keeping a VW polo line open instead of moving it to a cheaper country. Now skiing with SoftBank and Goldman Sachs, they have more financial investors.

When you sell out cars 5 years ahead of schedule it's not exactly difficult to get a few hundred mill investment when these companies are all overinvested in speculative AI street your they have never made a profit

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jonatizzle@reddit

Ok but you proved my point in your own comment. Bugatti's been selling the Veyron and Chiron off the platform that VW helped fund 20 years ago, and the company wouldn't be where there are without it. They might be able to make a profit and continue from their future investors, but they aren't a giant auto manufacturer. Private investment money isn't a guaranteed path to success which several companies have shown in plenty of industries recently.

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qb4ever@reddit

They dont need to hold shares of the other to do that though, a partnership deal would be enough to gain access to many parts.

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S3baman@reddit

It's not a question of who designs it, but who sponsors the massive R&D budget one needs to make a hypercar like the Tourbillon. It's well known that VW did not care much about the profitability of Bugatti, because they looked at the brand marketing potential. If VW money is gone, Bugatti will struggle to keep up its facade of an ultra luxurious, 500km/h rocket that weights 2t.

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peopeopeopeo10@reddit

This was a weird desl

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S3baman@reddit

Porsche should instead focus on accelerating its carbon-neutral, synthetic fuel. They already invested a lot of money into the tech, and it's obvious 911 folks prefer the combustion engine.

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peopeopeopeo10@reddit

Will that even be feasible? I remember in 2021 they announced it was coming in 2022 or at max 2023. I think that plant in Chile is starting to feel a little bit pointless, if not total BS from the beginning

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Intel_Oil@reddit

F1 will accelerate the standing of synthetic fuel. Investing there is the move since its greenwashing and innovating at the same time.

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peopeopeopeo10@reddit

E-fuels are pure greenwashing. At the end you're still burning something

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Unusual-Ideal4831@reddit

Well it's burning something that we can technically renew easier rather than fossil fuels. It's a compromise but I think most motorheads wouldn't like to see ice vehicles to be completely phased out in their lifetime so that compromise is fine for them, me included.

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MrFlow@reddit

Well it's basically an open secret that Rimac designed the Battery Hybrid System for the Porsche 911 GTS (992.2), maybe they weren't satisfied with it or since they decided to drop down their EV investments they think they don't need Rimac anymore.

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strongmanass@reddit

Mate has been trying to get full control ever since they tried to tell him hoe to develop the Tourbillon.

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peopeopeopeo10@reddit

Battery of 911 GTS is actually from Varta. Porsche even bought their automotive division just to keep producing their batteries

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xstreamReddit@reddit

Cells are, battery isn't

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fkenthrowaway@reddit

Just because cell are Varta doesnt mean modules arent developed, produced and assembled by Rimac.

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Hustletron@reddit

You’re spot on

V4Drive via Varta

Porsche wasn’t getting much tech for the money and now Rimac is leaning more to BMW in the press

Porsche chose to cash out

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Intel_Oil@reddit

Rimac aint doing shit tbh.

Also a weird guy (culture, behavior) to have around a C-Level Board. Great move by Porsche to get their Ducks out of the water, while someone is still eager to buy their way into them.

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Car-face@reddit

The whole VW group are in the midst of a long (and increasingly painful) cost-cutting exercise.

I suspect they're seeing the market for ultra high performance and ultra luxury EVs evaporating and looking for low hanging fruit - and they don't hang much lower than an investment tying them to an ultra low-volume ultra-luxury brand and an ultra low volume ultra high performance brand.

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V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit

That makes sense why whole VAG now looking Rivian. Rivian is basically helped by their money. If they’re going to increase money on them, I wouldn’t surprise.

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KingMario05@reddit

Just sucks that this means VW leaves Bugatti, too. Oh well. Hope Mate stewards it well going forward.

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hbs18@reddit

They wanted to funnel EU money into Porsche.

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Jkcanwien@reddit

can you explain a bit better

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peopeopeopeo10@reddit

Extreme hypothesis, but not impossible

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hbs18@reddit

It becomes a more reasonable theory once you take a closer look at what Rimac's company has been up to in Croatia.

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peopeopeopeo10@reddit

I know very well that, the autonomous driving car for example... shitshow

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jarojajan@reddit

this is the correct answer.

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HoldingForGenova@reddit

Probably wanted to use Rimacs ev supercar knowledge, but didn't go that wellp

VW/Porsche have realized they've lost the next three decades of automotive sales to Chinese brands. VW was supposed to be a volume dealer, and Porsche was supposed to be the soul. But they let the American viewpoint dominate their choices, and now they're a decade behind on modern tech and losing ground every quarter.

They're panicking, and dumping non-core projects in pursuit of any kind of path forward that doesn't lead to the entirety of the VW group being acquired in a decade for 15% of its current value. Porsche sees the 911 as its savior, but even those predictions are seen as severely contracting in 4-5 years, leaving them with ... not a lot of options against competitors who offer 2X more at 30% of the price.

Rimac/Bugatti are distractions - shiny distractions, but distractions nonetheless - during an existential crisis.

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devastationz@reddit

I mean, the American government has seemingly abandoned all EV investments. Sales are down in China because why wouldn’t they get the cheaper EV that does the same thing? EU is EV pilled, but there are cheaper options and more options for public transit. The EV Cayman is more than likely dead, an EV 911 sure ain’t happening. They’ve already given us the hybrid tech for our primary performance car (according to that other comment)

Why would I continue my investments in a company that only makes EV and an EV hyper car that no one is buying?

This is Me speaking with limited knowledge tho

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strongmanass@reddit

Why would I continue my investments in a company that only makes EV and an EV hyper car that no one is buying?

The main business is B2B. They supply electric components for Koenigsegg, Mercedes, BMW, and other brands I can't remember. Imagine if ZF made a hypercar using their gearbox, magic hydraulic suspension that Porsche uses for the Panamera and Taycan, and other technology. Rimac is like the ZF of EVs.

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V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit

Because we can’t predict what future car market like, battery tech is improving so quick.

Chinese are now looking in Exotic market if you know BYD their premium brands doing. Of corse, U9 isn’t that great in Ring, and Denza Z is just released. What happens when they improve and take their exotic buyers ?

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sbc_and_a_stick@reddit

Makes sense to me. At least with Lamborghini they can share a lot of technology. The Bugatti is too far removed to have much crossover, engine is made by Cosworth not in house, proportions and loads are very different. Rimac made sense, but now that they got hybrids and electrics working they may not need Rimac anymore along with the decrease in demand for full electric vehicles.

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costryme@reddit

Porsche absolutely did not have 50%+ control. Rimac Group and therefore Mate Rimac had it.

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brahlicious@reddit

Porsche owned 45% of Bugatti Rimac and Rimac Group owned 55%.

And Porsche owns 25% of Rimac Group 😅

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shugokibrokenlmao@reddit

that doesn’t give them >50% control.

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costryme@reddit

Yes, and how does that make Porsche have control of the decisions exactly ? Mate Rimac has a 50%+ stake in his group, so he decides alone for the Rimac majority stake in Bugatti.

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MrReadilyUnready@reddit

Porsche owned 45% of Bugatti-Rimac and 20% of Rimac Group, meaning they held 55% of the company overall.

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costryme@reddit

That is absolutely not how voting works. They hold 55% of the economic value, but they only have 45% of the voting power. Their 20% share in Rimac is meaningless because Mate Rimac owns the rest. So they essentially have no input whatsoever in what Rimac decides on behalf of the whole Rimac Group.

And it would have been the same if they held 40% of Rimac Group.

So no, the headline is a lie, they did not have control.

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MrReadilyUnready@reddit

We have no

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Dachshand@reddit

It was 45%.

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costryme@reddit

For Porsche ? Yes indeed.

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Dachshand@reddit

Yeah, the headline is misleading.

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Dachshand@reddit

I don’t think I like this at all.

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V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit

What you mean ? You worry Bugatti going to lost engine and becoming rebadged Rimac EV model EVs ?

If so, you don’t need to worry because Rimac himself knows that EV exotic still no demanding, so he will keep Bugatti like before. He does very well in Tourbillon.

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