How do you think the ex-commie Balkan countries would look like today had they never gone through communism / dictatorships?
Posted by Substratas@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 115 comments
Pic of Enver Hoxha.
JaThatOneGooner@reddit
Albania wouldn’t be half as developed in terms of infrastructure as it is today. I’ll get a lot of flak for saying this but hey, the fact Albania still relies on Hoxha’s neglected infrastructure is evidence enough.
pastorok21@reddit
If the capitalist ruled Albania after WW2 instead of Hoxha, the infrastructure would be on similar level to other European capitalists countries. Maybe not like Germany but could comparable to Spain, Portugal, Greece or South Italy.
alkorisno@reddit
Capitalists cant even maintain it now, let along build it. There is no intrest for public infrastruture in capitalism
Ok_Entrepreneur_6521@reddit
What😂😂
LibertyChecked28@reddit
Capitalist =/= Successful.
-UK lost all of it's colonial influence for the sake of Liberal capitalism and they got instantly demoted to the status of a second world $h!thole that needs to slot friggin grocery products with Gov quotas, as to avoid official WW2 era rationing during peace times.
Once you take out the stock exchange & ship insurance mafia ran by the inbred Aristocrat Clans with global monopolies dating back to the 1800's London suddenly stops being so special.
-US needs to spin Hjalmar Schacht tricks as to pretend that they are economically competitive. Forget China and Japan, they can't keep up with the pathetic amount of EU stuff on their home market so they constantly need to restrict access via tarifs or outright bans.
-The EU is fucking bankrupt, France and Germany today make Italy and Greece during 2015 look like a mild joke.
Ok_Entrepreneur_6521@reddit
Lmao and bulgaria was much better than them during communism, you ignorant pos. Due to people like you, the balkans will never develop
loathingk@reddit
Laughs is no social health care in the US
cosmic_heat_death@reddit
What an ahistorical moronic simpleton you are 😂
alienundead12@reddit
I bet yall braindead ankkkaps think that milei is improving Argentina or that most Americans dont live near the poverty line 😂😂😂😂
Rudania-97@reddit
There is no level of capitalism. There are only stages.
Yes, capitalist countries who put themselves into the position of being an imperial power, draining resources and value from countries in the imperial periphery are way better.
But capitalist countries in the imperial periphery are still exactly that: capitalistic.
Where do you think the balkan counties would fit in? Having the materialistic conditions met to be in the imperial core or rather imperial periphery?
After the dissolution of Yugoslavia they all ended in the imperial periphery. I don't see why that would've changed without being part of a socialist nation.
Because capitalism fucked the Balkans over big time.
So in countries where communists are actively pushed back on and still fought, have absolutely no say on anything for 35 years now are the problems?
You need to explain, I think my brain can't fuck itself over to even get close to understand the reasoning for arguments like that.
pastorok21@reddit
I’ve been to Albania and other ex communist countries. I have also been to western capitalist countries. Many of these capitalist countries were poorer, more destroyed after WW2 than ex communist countries in 1945. The infrastructure is way, way better in any western capitalist
alkorisno@reddit
US payed reparation to Germanys factories after destroying them in WW2. Even the one creating gas for xoncentration camps. Of course when they bombed Serbia in 1999 and destroyed our factories, no reperations. They send money to the west, but doesnt reach the people, home ownership rates are lower. We had better infrastruture, but ours was bombed in 1999, theirs was rebuilt to keep the nazis happy
Alternative_Job5123@reddit
You were killing half the balkans, what reparations do you expect?
Rudania-97@reddit
LOL
Nazi Germany "lost" the war but got all its goals and interests fulfilled and got money big time for killing 60 million people.
But hey, guess that wasn't bad enough.
GrogmarktheRag@reddit
I have to disagree. Because Greece is the perfect example. Marshall funds were used to rebuild what already existed prior to the war, and improve it a bit (say, finish paving the national road network). It did not give us new highways, railways, ports, airports etc. Western European countries recovered faster because a) they got more aid from the US because they were crucial to NATO and b) had colonies themselves to extract resources from (let's not forget France left Africa in the 1960s). Greece had shit infrastructure until EU funds came in the 1990s and 2000s. And keep in mind Greece has at least some money from tourism (including ancient sites) and shipping. Albania doesn't, and it was poorer than Greece before WW2.
puzzledpanther@reddit
And all that infrastructure pales in comparison to the infrastructure of China.
JaThatOneGooner@reddit
The capitalists have been in charge of Albania well over 20 years and all they’ve done is steal Albanian people’s money. Even now they’re mired in scams and corruption.
pastorok21@reddit
No , same people are in charge as 35 years ago. They just changed theirs coats.
Ok_Entrepreneur_6521@reddit
Oh my god, why do kosovo albanians always talk about communist albania like they were party members. Albania would better in every way if it weren’t for communism.
Every time one of you tries to talk about internal matters in albania you come off as really stupid. You are always so uninformed and off-side.
JaThatOneGooner@reddit
Reading exists vlla we can make an informed decision without having to live there, lavdi shoku Enver.
BarFickle2272@reddit
Retard koke vllaqko, stokholm sindroma
AskBalkans-ModTeam@reddit
Your post/comment was removed for violating Rule 1 of r/AskBalkans "Keep it civil". Depending on the severity of this violation, you may be banned.
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Ok_Entrepreneur_6521@reddit
Normal lavdi se do jesh nanji nga ata qe tkan qi nonen shokt e enverit te udb
Substratas@reddit (OP)
Oof, the way you clocked that tea.
https://i.redd.it/767n2ynsk4xg1.gif
VisibleReport5008@reddit
the ottomans did set back the balkans in terms of industrialization. But after WW2 the rest of the Europe was also in ruins, it was the marshall aids that got them up again. The level of technology between the soviets and USA was massive.
LibertyChecked28@reddit
The Soviet elites (early Oligarchs) culled all efforts of R&D for the sake of syphoning second grade US stuff at discount.
alkorisno@reddit
That money wasnt free. Just look at the home ownership rates between eastern and western europe.
VisibleReport5008@reddit
safe to say both sides had its ups and downs.
alkorisno@reddit
One had genocide, other had what exactly? You couldnt start your own private company without sharing profit with all the workers equaly?
VisibleReport5008@reddit
I dont get who you are defending? Eastern europe has higher home ownership and i assume you refer to holodomor.
79mn105ss105a104@reddit
The Marshan Plan was offered to Poland , Romania, Bulgaria as well but were forced by URSS to deny it
Putrid_Speed_5138@reddit
Numerous regions across Europe and the Middle East that remained outside Ottoman control also failed to industrialize. Therefore, attributing the lack of industrialization in the Balkans solely to Ottoman rule is historically inaccurate.
Historical counterexamples further challenge this narrative. The textile mill established in Sliven in 1834 to produce uniforms for the Ottoman army ranked among the first modern industrial facilities in all of Southern Europe. Later Ottoman administrators, such as Midhat Pasha, directed substantial investments toward regional industry within the Tuna Vilayet (Danube Governorship).
Consequently, understanding the delayed industrialization of the Balkans requires a more nuanced analysis that takes into account many factors.
Crni_SKadu@reddit
One of those factors being colonialism which the region didn't have geological predisposition for. Thankfully in my opinion.
Putrid_Speed_5138@reddit
Yes, but don't be too harsh against the Ottomans. I also dislike the Ottomans (like I dislike all monarchies and any type of extractive oligarchy) but the Ottomans have never been colonialist like Western powers. It was intrinsic in their system from the beginning, not because the Balkans had no geological predisposition. If the Ottomans were colonialist, the Balkans would be to them what Canada is to Britain today.
Crni_SKadu@reddit
Nah i meant the entire region, ottomans included were not predisposed towards colonialism. I agree that the accusation that ottomans were the reason for Balkan underdeveloped is nonsense. Western European countries became developed specifically because of colonialism which ottomans couldn't compete with
Putrid_Speed_5138@reddit
Ah, sorry, yes, I completely agree with you.
The Ottomans were just exploiting the people's labor (including those of the Anatolian Turks) in a different and perhaps "lighter" way. Their deal was simpler: "As long as you don't threaten the sultan's throne , you are free to believe in any god, speak any language and adhere to any culture you want. You must just plow your field, pay your tax and feed a few soldiers for us."
While still extractive, this medieval agrarian deal was more humane than what Western industrial colonialism later brought, which was something like: "We claim absolute ownership over your land and its natural resources to fuel our global markets. Furthermore, because we deem your civilization inherently inferior, you must abandon your culture, adopt our institutions, and exist at the bottom of a rigid racial hierarchy designed to permanently extract your wealth and labor."
The first deal worked well for many centuries. However, for a central authority, the premium from the first deal was significantly lower than the second deal. So, soon after the second deal came up, the West beat the Ottomans' ass in the end.
Crni_SKadu@reddit
Right, i suspected you were a commie but now, you've confirmed it. Glad we see eye to eye ;)
Putrid_Speed_5138@reddit
Substratas@reddit (OP)
What is the marshall aids?
VisibleReport5008@reddit
financial aid plan to the western block after WW2 by USA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan
Damirirv@reddit
The Marshall Plan was the US postwar reconstruction plan for Europe, mainly including monetary aid and loans (though most of it went to just France and the UK at first). Before the creation of the Eastern Block, some of those countries did get a small amount of money from the Marshall Plan before the Soviets shut it down to lessen western influence.
zara_anwar@reddit
Albania would probably be like Greece or southern Italy and maybe part of the EU already in my guess
Vertebruv@reddit
Oof, that's a hot take.
As much as Hoxha was horrible, he did bring much needed progress in few segments, such as emancipation of women. I'd argue that in the long run he might have unintentionally brought it closer to the EU.
Alternative_Job5123@reddit
What emancipation ? This is a legend. Women would work in the factories and then come home and cook and clean and abide to their husband.
Vertebruv@reddit
In a communist regime basically every citizen becomes a property of the party, so no true emancipation can happen - but moving away from the Kanun and towards discussing women as people was a huge progress either way.
zara_anwar@reddit
Sure he left a good legacy on many areas but even for communist standards we were performing horribly bad and his foreign policy was utter bullshit.
Not only he closed us off from the western world (obviously) but he also made enemies with the Soviet union and later with China aswell to the point where we became totally isolated.
alkorisno@reddit
It wasnt in such a good state before communism, it would be extremly poor without infrastruture communists built. Capitslists cant even maintain it
Substratas@reddit (OP)
Not Southern Italy chile… 🙄
zara_anwar@reddit
It's very realistic for us
Substratas@reddit (OP)
I know I’ll get murdered for saying this but Southern Italy would have been much worse off today had they not been united with the north.
zara_anwar@reddit
That's common sense, the entire industry of Italy was focused up north while the south was agriculture based economy. To this day the difference is visible for them
ThingCandid9553@reddit
A million times better.
gulaazad@reddit
Said romanian.
ThingCandid9553@reddit
Huh?
HYBRIDLqTHEORY@reddit
Am I the only one that truly thinks Yugoslavia (with Tito) would today be equal to china? (Not in economy but in political power)
fk_censors@reddit
Yes, you are the only one.
HYBRIDLqTHEORY@reddit
Daubt that very hard. A unified Yugoslavia was even back then political powerful.
Krasniqi857@reddit
Albania would be better I'll bet my life on that
SnooSuggestions4926@reddit
Handsome mofo he was
fk_censors@reddit
The assholes always get the girls :)
Substratas@reddit (OP)
The girls:
Crni_SKadu@reddit
Depends on several factors. Assuming Nazis were defeated and Soviet influence didn't extend beyond Hungary, we would have likely become a proxy zone for NATO. Most likely a large portion of Marshall plan money would be have been set aside for regional development, not unlike what happened with Greece. Urbanisation would probably be at a greater pace with a highly sped up ruination of peasantry. No idea if Yugoslavia would even be a thing as such since communist ideology played a significant role in glueing its nations together. Instead of planned development, you'd have high investments in key industries and towns while rest of the country would be left unattended. Historically wealthier countries like Slovenia and Croatia would probably be richer compared to today. Serbia and Bulgaria, similar to greece, would be in a middle zone (maybe slightly better in certain parts of the country, though overall probably worse), everyone else would probably be worse off than today across the board.
All of this is of course speculation, but an advantage that communism had over capitalism historically is to be able to industrialise quickly without breaking social cohesion. Capitalist development historically was usually slower (spanning hundred years) during which society undergoes severe turmoil due to ruination of peasantry and unregulated and unplanned urbanisation.
Those thinking that economically we'd be anywhere near most Western European countries highly underestimate the differences in development which would dictate the relationship balkan countries would have had with Western Europe. Capitalism tends to favour historically richer countries and those countries have an invested interest in maintaining this circumstance, why would they allow abotger regional competitor when they could be the only ones dictating the competition.
alkorisno@reddit
What are you talking about? We ware a monarchy before communists. We wouldnt even have public schools, healthcare nor 8 hour work days. We had child labour and actual king. We cant even maintain the infrastruture under capitalism that communists built. Entire novi beograd wouldnt exist.
Crni_SKadu@reddit
I mean i don't disagree. I'm mostly trying to be charitable because i can't really envision the extent to which Marshall plan would have propped us up had we've been on the NATO side. Richer also doesn't necessarily imply that this wealth is equally distributed.
fk_censors@reddit
Capitalism literally made poor shîthole countries much wealthier overnight, in one generation (see Czech Republic, Poland, Romania, China, Vietnam, etc).
Galhaar@reddit
Greece I think is a solid benchmark for how a Balkan country without communism would perform. Being western aligned isn't a guarantee for superior performance
fk_censors@reddit
People were fleeing the iron curtain to go to Greece, not the other way around. Greece was a paradise in comparison at the time.
konkurrenterna@reddit
Yugoslavia was better than what they have now. I have heard several boomers say that. But that could be nostalgia talking who really knows.
alkorisno@reddit
It is true. We cant even maintain infrstruture built under communism. No interests in public infrsstructure in capitslism
Glittery_Marshmallow@reddit
I mean it was better for most of it. The labor laws were stronger. Now there is much more exploitation, burnout, poverty, so much more poverty now, also foreign exploitation of cheap labor. There was access to both the West and the East, as it was not behind the iron curtain. Just compare the average salary in Yugoslavia and buying power to the average salary today, that says a lot. The only exception might be Slovenia. People were generally happy and optimistic about the future. There was no housing crisis, everything that was built was high quality and built to stand the test of time. There was a sense of unity and friendly competition, rather than the dog eat dog grusome fight for survival under capitalism. Also radničke sportske igre.
fk_censors@reddit
Those are two different things.
Had they not gone through communism, they would have been far wealthier, far cleaner, and far less corrupt, morally and politically. This isn't really much in dispute, we have all the data in the world of similar people under two systems (North vs South Korea, East vs West Germany, Venezuela vs Colombia, Cuba vs Dominican Republic, etc).
Had they not gone through dictatorship - who knows? There are countries that did very well under dictatorships (United Arab Emirates, Singapore before it opened up politically), and other that did very poorly (Cuba, North Korea, and all the other left-wing dictatorships). I guess it depends on the luck of the draw there.
alkorisno@reddit
Yugoslavia was a monarchy before communism, so we got less dictatorship in communism. We even had worker self managment, so democracy even in the workplace, unlike today
vasjpan002@reddit
Communist killed my grandfather because he worked in USA. My mom said communism was the religion of envy. I believe the passive-aggressive peasant (κουτοπονιρια = dumbsneak) culture is still communist, which is why haven't been to Greece since 1988 and will never go.
SkeenCap1984@reddit
Albania would be even more worse off than today. It would probably end up being one of those countries thats a paradise getaway for westerners and very rich albanians, while everyone else in the country suffers and is impoverished. there'd probably be a corrupt kleptocrat dictator like ferdinand marcos running the country too, stealing all of the country's wealth for himself.
Gjinkallet@reddit
What do you think is currently hapening o bosi?
Fimbir@reddit
Depends. Is that assuming they went through the war and had access to Marshal Funds? That and the example of Soviet control of the east kind of shaped Western Europe.
trillegi@reddit
Way better that’s for sure.
HumanMan00@reddit
In Albania or in Macedonia?
trillegi@reddit
Both.
HumanMan00@reddit
Thats a no for Macedonia bud.
Macedonia before the communists had 0 infrastructure, very poor education and extremly weak economy.
On top of that it had a massive earthquake during that time so Skopje was rebuilt by Yugoslavia.
Comparitvly - you had 35 years after communism and had no war during that time and still fall on the rank of Bosnia who was at war and has a split government to deal with.
So explain to me based on what do u make this claim?
Ujemegaz@reddit
We did not have war, but civil unrest in 1997 caused far more damage than war. All municipalities, army barracks and many other state buildings were stormed.
Funny how speak of other vountries as if you are an expert. During interwar period, our economy was on the right path as many were becoming wealthy while trading with Italy. Communism destroyed everything.
HumanMan00@reddit
We r talking about Macedonia not Albania.
New-Weekend-8189@reddit
Worst! Balkan nations have a unique cultural glitch. Because we were under other empires for so long we developed an imune response to top down management. Is even worse because at the same time our local elite remained imprinted with the tendency to separate itself from the people they rule and are as such always acting as a distinct ethnicity of nobles. No communism would have mentioned that the king and his boys would have plundered even more the country
Ujemegaz@reddit
Pretty much like before ww2. Yugoslavia was not bad economically, but it would end up in a war between Croats and Serbs. Greece probably with Albania, even though they did jack when Zog dismantled "Vorios Epirous", but for sure they would try. Hungary with Romania, etc. Skirmishies, not total war, but you can grasp the atmosphere.
We like it or not, communist dictatorships kept us from going to war, because of Stalinist ideology. Leninism was more aggresive for instance.
Substratas@reddit (OP)
I thought you were joking…
Ujemegaz@reddit
See? I am not the only one that thinks so as well. But he ignored the Italian factor.
AJ_Stangerson@reddit
Perhaps some sort of Finlandization would have taken place, or a form of neutrality along the lines of Austria, though it's hard to see a timeline where all the different groups in the region don't turn on each other, causing some sort of outside intervention, as happened anyway, just sooner.
Economically speaking almost certainly better off.
It is an interesting question actually, as there aren't really any easy comparisons to see how similar situations played out, except maybe Cyprus for the 'ethnic' differences, or Greece for an alternative economic or political trajectory.
MyPlantsDieSometimes@reddit
Well we wouldn't have decided to do internal cleansing of the populus so potentially we'd look more varied than we already do.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
in my opinion is was very bad that Serbs joined the Partisan movement and supported the Croat/Slovene Dictator that fought against Serbia in WW1.
if Serbs rejected the Partisan movement they would be in a much better condition today, without Serbs the partisan movement would have lack numbers in the start and collapsed before ever getting a hold.
Barbak86@reddit
Hahahahahah. Ahahahahhahahaha. Oh dude, you must be very young. Only a young person lacks depth like this.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
i mean you attack me personally, wich reveals alot about urself and i am still young.
You seem to be old and still comment like a child. Think about that.
Barbak86@reddit
How did I attack you personally? Your opinion is just one of the most superficial opinions ever, that revealed that you must be really young. That's all.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
"Only a young person lacks depth like this"
how come ?
the partisan movement got hold because the majority were Serbs if they unify under a diffferent movement there are no partisans. I build my opinion on research unlike you who watches the past through a biased lense.
You can bring up facts instead of talking so shallow, shall i quote you what tito himself said on the serbian participation ?
knowing how Yugoslavia V2 went you think it was somehow good for serbs ? their genocide got shrugged unter the carpet and not talked about, 0% justice. Serbia was participated with additional autonomy regions while rejecting the same in areas were Serbs were target of genocide.
i mean Titos Credo was Weak Serbia, Strong Yugoslavia
i get why you support it but ur lack of understanding shows ur lack of knowledge on the matter and actual depth.
Barbak86@reddit
I'm not going into this bro. If you are one of those people that really do research stuff and view issues from more perspectives, you'll understand me later.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
Oh dude, you must be very old. Only a old person lacks depth like this.
lmaoooo what a response, unlike you i brought actual arguments instead of ad hominems.
Barbak86@reddit
Never did an ad hominem really because I'm not engaging in a debate. I didn't say you are wrong. You are actually right, if you never go a bit in-depth and understand the complexities of Yugoslavia which would help you understand the motivation of Serbs joining the Partisan Movement.
Concluding that you are young just by the way your thoughts are structured, is not an attack, it's a conclusion I made and I think it was a correct one.
I never wanted to debate you, it was just funny that I could estimate your age by the way your brain works.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
thats true, but age has little to do with age when you research academically in my opinion, i would even argue your more open minded when ur younger. (maybe i am wrong)
I did heavy research on this period due to personal circumstances and lasting effects it had on my family.
but no bad feelings, wish you a good weekendo
Barbak86@reddit
Keep on researching, you'll understand later.
P.s. young people are less open minded in some areas, because they are more idealistic. That's why we all shift to the center of political ideologies when we get older. It's about depth and understanding other perspectives. You'll get there ❤️
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
Lmao why you have to be like this ?
Salty unc, I would highly recommend you to do some research on the topics u participate in.
Barbak86@reddit
Where do you see my saltines? I wished you well, and I know you'll get there. Just don't stop like many people do. I've been you.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
Cmon don’t act stupid, always backhanded comments (like this)
Just further gibberish and empty words.
I hope you will find what you lack, so you can behave and write accordingly to ur age.
Barbak86@reddit
❤️
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
the tito quote wich was printed in Proleter. (Dez. 1942)
The Serbian people have made the greatest contribution in bloodshed and in the struggle against the occupiers and their treacherous lackeys not only Pavelić, Nedić, Pećanac, but also Draža Mihailović and his Chetniks and they continue to do so even today, for the full freedom and independence of all the peoples of Yugoslavia.
The Serbian people do not wish for the old system to return, just as neither the Croats nor the Slovenes, nor the Macedonians, nor the Montenegrins, nor the Muslims wish it.
The Serbian people know very well what led them into national tragedy and who bears the main responsibility for it. That is why they fight so heroically and despise the traitors from their own ranks.
It is therefore the sacred duty of all the other peoples of Yugoslavia—at least to the same extent, if not on an even broader basis,to take part together with the Serbian people in this great war of liberation against the occupiers and all their lackeys.”
Burlotier@reddit
If the communists don’t influence the Balkans then :
1) Bigger Greece : Greece would t have much of a civil war and so it would have been unified with Cyprus . Other than that it probably keeps north Epirus and small parts of southern Bulgaria .
2)Bigger Romania : It would be unified with Moldova and the transition of transnistria to either Russia or Romania would have gone smoother with no bad feelings .
3) No religious repression and a more religiously unified Balkans . Wouldn’t be surprised if they had a viable counter current of influence against secularism from Western Europe
The only negative thing will be that they won’t have as big of an industrial network and nuclear industry . Other than that the USSR acted as an Ottoman Empire 2.0 and it gave indirectly the rise to Turkey
Barbak86@reddit
I don't know. The question is extremely complex. Some would be much better, some wouldn't exist, some would be more or less the same.
Good-Lion-5140@reddit
Same people or similar, with different repressive ideologies, would be in charge anyway.
RammRras@reddit
Looks like a nice guy I'd have fun going around with.
freaky_withthat_FEET@reddit
Just as shit.
Margelatu76@reddit
Switzerland here.
hubbabubbameqershi@reddit
Hoxha was femboy
Antique_Birthday6380@reddit
For Albania probably yes, for sure.
IndividualDig7996@reddit
Like Switzerland, worst case scenario - Austria
Crni_SKadu@reddit
Make this make sense
Substratas@reddit (OP)
Which country? I don’t think Albania would ever be on that level, not economically-wise at least…
Proud-Ad-5206@reddit
Some would be worse, because Stalin would have taken Trieste.