Engine sputtering at low power
Posted by Realspicyshrimps@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 42 comments
Hello everyone, I have a slight mystery that's been bugging me, and I'm hoping you all can help.
This evening I was flying my 1968 C172I with an O-320-E2D in the southern Maryland area. Completed the run-up with no issues and took off to a field 20 mi away for some touch and goes. Temp 21C / Dewpoint 13C, 29.85.
I completed 2 touch and goes with no problem. During my 3rd lap, when I reduced power (to about 1600 RPM) at my abeam point, my engine started sputtering (carb heat on, mags both, fuel both, full rich). I would describe it as a "puff of air" sound with an accompanying mild vibration and no power loss. It would sputter about once every 2 seconds. I turned my T&G into a full stop to investigate.
I completed a run-up on the ground with no issues. Both the pre-flight and mid-flight run up showed the 75-100 RPM drops for each set of Mags, and 100 RPM drop for carb heat. I ran at 1700 RPM leaned for 30 sec to burn off lead deposits and at 1600 RPM with carb heat on for 5 minutes with no sputtering.
I decided to take off and RTB, since this happened at low throttle with no loss of power. The RTB was completely uneventful, until the base leg again. Same procedure as before, same sputtering as before. I landed and completed a 3rd run-up with no discrepancies.
My initial thought is carb ice since it was fairly humid, but carb heat seems to work fine and I had it on full hot during my power reductions.
What are your thoughts? Am I an idiot for taking back off after the mid-flight occurrence? Can I have confidence in this engine again?
nerfsmurf@reddit
Put your issue in PropPal and got the following...
⚡ Quick Assessment
Based strictly on the provided Cessna service manual, do not trust this engine for flight until a full ground inspection is completed.
The symptoms you experienced—sputtering at a specific RPM (1600 RPM), a "puff of air" sound, and mild vibration—fall directly under the manual's troubleshooting category for "ENGINE RUNS ROUGHLY OR WILL NOT ACCELERATE PROPERLY" (Page 155).
While you suspected carburetor ice, the "puff of air" sound and the fact that the issue persisted on a second flight despite your burn-off procedures point toward mechanical issues such as an induction air leak, a leaking manual primer, or a defective engine (compression/valve issue). Taking off again with an unresolved rough-running engine introduces significant risk, as the manual dictates these symptoms require visual correction, component replacement, or engine repair prior to returning to service.
🔍 Systematic Diagnostic Approach
For the hangar mechanics, here is the step-by-step troubleshooting plan based on the manual to isolate the cause of the 1600 RPM sputter and "puff of air" sound.
1. Check for Induction Air Leaks & Primer Leaks
A "puff of air" sound combined with rough running during power reductions strongly suggests an issue with the induction system or fuel delivery at lower manifold pressures. * Induction Air Leaks (Page 155): Visually check the induction system. Correct the cause of any leaks. An induction leak can cause a lean misfire (sputter) that changes based on throttle position. * Manual Primer Leaking (Page 155): Disconnect the primer outlet line. If fuel leaks through the primer, it is defective and must be repaired or replaced. A leaking primer allows unmetered fuel into the cylinders, causing a rich sputter at lower RPMs.
2. Inspect Engine Compression & Unusual Noises
The manual specifically addresses unusual sounds associated with rough running. * Defective Engine (Page 155): The manual states to "Check compression. Listen for unusual engine noises. Engine repair is required." The rhythmic "puff of air" (once every 2 seconds) could indicate a compression leak, such as a sticking valve or exhaust leak, which becomes highly noticeable during power reductions. Perform a standard engine compression check (referencing the engine Manufacturer's Manual as directed on Page 160).
3. Verify Carburetor Heat & Control Rigging
Since you noted the carb heat was full hot but the engine still sputtered, the rigging must be verified. * Carburetor Heat Rigging (Page 160): Check the carburetor heat control for proper rigging. The manual notes that if it is partially open (or not sealing correctly due to worn rigging), it causes power loss and could affect the mixture. * Throttle/Mixture Rigging (Page 155): Visually check for worn or improperly rigged throttle or mixture controls. Replace worn linkage and rig properly.
4. Check the Idle Mixture & Carburetor
You noted the sputtering stopped below ~1400 RPM on final. At lower RPMs, the carburetor transitions to the idle circuit. * Idle Mixture Adjustment (Page 166): An incorrectly adjusted idle mixture can cause rough running at lower RPMs. 1. Warm up the engine. 2. Stabilize idle at 600 ± 25 RPM. 3. Slowly move the mixture control toward IDLE CUT-OFF. 4. Look for a momentary increase of approximately 25 RPM before the engine dies. 5. If the RPM drops immediately (too lean) or rises more than 25 RPM (too rich), adjust the idle mixture center screw. * Defective Carburetor (Page 155): If the engine starts when primed but stops when priming is discontinued (with mixture FULL RICH), the carburetor is defective and requires repair/replacement.
5. Ignition System & Spark Plugs
Even though your run-up mag drops were within limits (75-100 RPM drop, well under the 125 RPM max / 50 RPM differential limit on Page 171), the manual still requires checking the ignition system for rough running. * Spark Plugs (Page 154/171): Remove, clean, and regap the spark plugs. Replace if defective. A sharp RPM drop-off past normal indicates a fouled plug or defective harness lead. * Magneto Timing (Page 160): Check magneto timing, spark plugs, and ignition harness for proper settings and conditions.
⚠️ Safety Considerations & Urgency
Given__To__Fly@reddit
Have you done a spark plug fouling remediation on the runup lately? Could be plug fouling after running rich.
Also, what was the density altitude? Running full rich is only for DAs below 3,000ft. If higher, you need to lean slightly.
Realspicyshrimps@reddit (OP)
Thanks for the recommendation. I will keep this in mind in the future.
The density attitude at the field was about 1050, so ~4500’ DA in cruise and ~2050’ DA in the pattern
Junior-Tourist3480@reddit
And why are you guessing? Pilots may be mechanical troubleshooters to some degree, but unless you have an A&P, don't just guess, hope and fly. Get there itis will be the dead ringer.
Realspicyshrimps@reddit (OP)
Not intended to be a "guess" or "justification" per se, just looking to bounce my experience off the wealth of experience on the internet. I have already arranged to consult with a professional.
Junior-Tourist3480@reddit
Just making sure u r safe. People were wondering why you flew again before having s mechanic take a look.
dinnerisbreakfast@reddit
Could be the idle was set too low.
KITTYONFYRE@reddit
1600rpm isn’t idle
makgross@reddit
It’s pretty hard to get lower than that in flight.
KITTYONFYRE@reddit
don’t remember the model of 172 my school had but 1500 wasn’t even idle in that - you still had a good half inch to an inch of throttle to go. probably engine and prop specific
dinnerisbreakfast@reddit
Perhaps you're right. The last time I pulled back the power and the engine died, the idle was set too low.
still not a mechanic
MehCFI@reddit
Dunno the problem but taking off again was pretty dumb
Kemerd@reddit
It’s just idle mixture issue likely, totally normal and unimportant around 1200+ RPM
As long as you don’t fail mag check it isn’t an issue
Realspicyshrimps@reddit (OP)
Thanks for your input. It never failed a mag check or felt like it was running "rough". The mag drop was 75 left/100 right which is consistent with every other time I've flown it.
Realspicyshrimps@reddit (OP)
Noted, thank you
Ezekiel24r@reddit
I had an issue where certain power settings (specifically in the 1800-2000 rpm range) was producing engine roughness. It ended up being solved by replacing the carburetor with an overhauled one.
Realspicyshrimps@reddit (OP)
Thanks for the advice
aftcg@reddit
What did your mechanic say? (Am mechanic)
Realspicyshrimps@reddit (OP)
Landed too late to catch him yesterday, set up a meet with him next week.
Hodgetwins32@reddit
The club also has a ‘68 182L
my personal technique is to leave the mixture a bit lean while carb heat comes on prior to landing. When I turn a final carb heat comes off and mix goes rich(this also serves me because I land in grass more than 70% of the time). Our 320 coughs and sputters with a rich mixture and carb heat, it’s just too rich. Affecting power too much to want it on when/if I need to fire wall it in a pinch.
We have our engines tuned fairly well, very responsive and predictable with leaning, but our 182 has always seemed just weird to me. The engine monitor we have gets it running peak at cruise, but outside of fine tuning it, it’s always felt like a crapshoot.
my .02
Realspicyshrimps@reddit (OP)
Interesting. Coughing is definitely the way to describe it.
Kemerd@reddit
You have to take it to a mechanic, and they have to adjust the idle mixture.
Source: I just did this procedure
Realspicyshrimps@reddit (OP)
Thanks for the advice, I'll definitely make sure they look out for this.
makgross@reddit
There are a lot of variables, but I’d suspect full rich is a little too rich. Carb heat makes that worse.
Could also be retarded timing, fouling, weak mag, or a number of other things.
aeroxan@reddit
You're supposed to say intellectually disabled timing these days.
Realspicyshrimps@reddit (OP)
Thanks for your inputs
IceBlock12@reddit
Full rich? Might be the issue. Fouled plugs can cause this too.
Hoggs@reddit
Not a pilot, but isn't it common procedure if the engine is a little rough, to try a lean run-up to try and clean the plugs?
Did some flight training and I remember this coming up.
KITTYONFYRE@reddit
he did
IceBlock12@reddit
Yes! Run up should always have lean of peak
Realspicyshrimps@reddit (OP)
Yes, I was running full rich in the pattern
_Sixteen@reddit
Mine does that every time I go idle at full rich. Not a big deal as I only do that when landing
jking615@reddit
First thing I would check is fouled plugs. I do this every run up. Easy enough to do, when you go for your mag check if it’s rough at all, then you lean it and run it at about 1600 RPMs for 30 seconds or so on both mags.
I’d also check for water contamination in your fuel. Now that you’re on the ground though take it to an a&p.
Realspicyshrimps@reddit (OP)
Thanks for your advice. I did this on preflight and mid-flight. I should note that at no point during the day did the engine run “rough”. There was no regularity to the sputter, and no roughness during mag checks.
Definitely headed to a mechanic though
Junior-Tourist3480@reddit
Water in the gas maybe? Small amounts may vaporized quickly wide open but low power will reveal much less power and sputtering. But yeah, don't fly if there is an issue. You can't remove water or clean plugs up in the sky.
JuicyCarrot723@reddit
I am not an a&p, but I would not advise flying again until the issue is addressed by one. I personally wouldn’t have gone back up after you were aware of the issue either.
Realspicyshrimps@reddit (OP)
Thank you
bgrant902@reddit
Probably an issue of running too rich and fouling, regardless, please reread the ADM section of the PHAK. I don’t know why you would take off again with recurring engine issues.
GoobScoob@reddit
So you’re at maybe 2k rpm in the pattern and you’re getting sputtering when you just pull it back to 1600rpm? Definitely not normal. Is this putting out 100% power in normal operations? Does it do it on the ground in similar conditions? (Carb heat on, same throttle movement from 2k->1600 rpm)
Also, the last time I did mag cleaning procedure (been years) the mechanics had me go up to like 2k rpms and lean it hard and stay there for two full minutes to get it nice and hot. There was a noticeable difference in the RPM drop pre and post procedure.
I’m not an A&P or any kind of an expert by any means but maybe double check that your procedure is correct because I dunno if 30 seconds at 1700rpm will do it.
Realspicyshrimps@reddit (OP)
It does not do it on the ground steady at 1600, but I will try the method of replicating the power out from 2k to 1600. Thanks for the mag cleaning tips, I'll definitely give that a shot.
Pale-Ad-8383@reddit
The 172 carb heat system uses a heat shroud on the exhaust pipe that when air is bypassing inlet air in the air box and pulling air from the exhaust it allows for heated air to go into the engine. On 180/182/152 aircraft originally the carb heat came from ram air heated by the cabin heat shroud. One day the theory changed from “melting” carb ice to “preventing” formation and carb heat was changed to similar configuration on the 172. Older 172 aircraft still use muffler heat and the melting theory.
Depending on sequence during decent the airbox may not be closing or the flapper could be loose. If cold air is making it past and power is reduced there may not be enough heat to prevent ice forming.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Hello everyone, I have a slight mystery that's been bugging me, and I'm hoping you all can help.
This evening I was flying my 1968 C172I with an O-320-E2D in the southern Maryland area. Completed the run-up with no issues and took off to a field 20 mi away for some touch and goes. Temp 21C / Dewpoint 13C, 29.85.
I completed 2 touch and goes with no problem. During my 3rd lap, when I reduced power (to about 1600 RPM) at my abeam point, my engine started sputtering (carb heat on, mags both, fuel both, full rich). I would describe it as a "puff of air" sound with an accompanying mild vibration and no power loss. It would sputter about once every 2 seconds. I turned my T&G into a full stop to investigate.
I completed a run-up on the ground with no issues. Both the pre-flight and mid-flight run up showed the 75-100 RPM drops for each set of Mags, and 100 RPM drop for carb heat. I ran at 1700 RPM leaned for 30 sec to burn off lead deposits and at 1600 RPM with carb heat on for 5 minutes with no sputtering.
I decided to take off and RTB, since this happened at low throttle with no loss of power. The RTB was completely uneventful, until the base leg again. Same procedure as before, same sputtering as before. I landed and completed a 3rd run-up with no discrepancies.
My initial thought is carb ice since it was fairly humid, but carb heat seems to work fine and I had it on full hot during my power reductions.
What are your thoughts? Am I an idiot for taking back off after the mid-flight occurrence? Can I have confidence in this engine again?
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