Can a company force new working hours and fire you if you refuse? Need advice
Posted by One_Koala_3511@reddit | AskUK | View on Reddit | 56 comments
Hi, looking for some advice about a work situation in the UK, England.
My mum has worked part-time at Sainsbury’s for over 15 years. Her usual shifts have been the same for years:
- Saturday: 8am–10am
- Wednesday: 2pm–6pm
- Thursday: 3pm–7pm
A new store manager has just come in and told staff that everyone now needs to be flexible and work late shifts up to 10:30pm.
He’s asked my mum to change her shifts to:
- Tuesday: 6:30pm–10:30pm
- Friday: 6:30pm–10:30pm
- Saturday: 9:30am–11:30am
She said she’s not able to do late evening shifts, and he told her he’ll “give her one week” and if she still refuses, she’ll be fired. He also said they all signed a contract years ago (around 10 years ago) that allows the company to change shifts.
This feels really unfair to me given she’s been there so long and has always worked daytime hours.
My questions:
- Can they actually force her to switch to late shifts like this?
- Does a clause in the contract from years ago allow such a big change?
- Can they really fire her within a week for refusing?
- What rights does she have after 15+ years of service?
Any advice would be really appreciated, especially from anyone familiar with UK employment law.
Thanks!
Buddy-Matt@reddit
Its not automatically illegal to change a person's shifts, so why her or not they can do this will be down to the contract. And it'll be on the company to prove those contracts allowing them to do this were signed.
What he can't do though is simply up and fire her for not agreeing. The law mandates a disciplinary process needs to be followed. Presumably they'd be looking to fire her for gross misconduct - the misconduct being either: failing to turn up for a shift, or failing to agree to a change in shift patterns. Ianal, but my understanding is they'd need to prove the change was reasonable in order to justify sacking someone for not agreeing with it. Whether or not a week's notice to change a shift pattern thats been established for years without allowing any reasonable adjustments for personal circumstances counts as reasonable is the sort of thing Employment Tribunals exist for (should the worst happens).
Manager sounds like an absolute cunt tbf. And im betting this is just the typical sweeping change to justify their salary. I'd advise your mum to contact HR - ignore the people who'll inevitably reply with "HR work for the company", as part of that responsibility towards the company is to avoid expensive, reputation damaging employment tribunals and legal problems caused by knobend managers who think their need to exercise their power over people outweighs those people's legal rights. On the off chance HR are useless, then its because they'll have checked the paperwork and will be satisfied that such a sweeping change is, in fact, fine. Or have an escape plan (such as a pot of silence money budgeted against the new policy's bottom line). Either which way, it tells you which way the wind's blowing.
If your mum is in a union, its time to contact them. If she's not it might be too late for her directly (unions dont want people who only pay the mebership when it's convenient, which is fair), but given the policy is being made store wide, enough of her colleagues should be in one that it's 100% worth making sure the union is made aware, as im sure they'll have an opinion, and that opinion could indirectly help your mum.
Good luck. Did I mention the manager sounds like a compete taint?
One_Koala_3511@reddit (OP)
Hiya thanks for responding. Yeah he is not nice. Since he joined all the staff have hated him and his rules. I misunderstood her he didnt say he'll fire her in 1 week, but she has 1 week to think about it and if she still says no then he'll start the firing process. Also she said some of her work friends already spoke to HR and they said they won't be getting involved. And shes not in a union. He is saying he has to do this, he has people above complaining and watching them on the cctv
Dietcokeisgod@reddit
Watch on cctv for what reason? It's illegal to monitor cctv for reasons beyond security/safety. Micromanaging is not a good enough reason.
Buddy-Matt@reddit
Watching them on cctv do what? Their work during their shift hours? That makes no sense. It's either bullshit, or theres a piece of info missing
Your mum needs to go separately to HR. Its a lot easier to ignore one or two people than lots, and their circumstances may be different (employed less time, already work more varied shifts, etc)
SnooCalculations9512@reddit
Also, she needs to join the union. USDAW is the appropriate one, and Sainsbury's tend to work quite productively with them
Buddy-Matt@reddit
Solid advice moving forward, for sure, but just to repeat my earlier point - unions tend not to get involved in disputes that start prior to membership (otherwise what's to stop people signing up for the duration of that dispute and leaving immediately after)
super_starmie@reddit
I worked at the co op for years and they decided to change everyone's contracts and hours. I got a letter saying if I didn't agree and sign it would be accepted as my resignation.
I looked for another job. I'm in the NHS now.
Perpetua11y_C0nfused@reddit
No. Regardless of what her contract says, if she’s been doing those exact shifts for years then they are now an ‘implied’ term of her contract.
He also can’t sack her without going through due process. He could potentially try to take her to disciplinary for failing to follow a reasonable request from management, but he’ll either fall flat on his face when someone else looks at this and realises its not reasonable to go against the implied terms of her employment, OR some other idiot will sign off on it, and then your mum can take both idiots to tribunal.
So…. Next steps.
Your mum needs to ask for the request for her to change her hours and the threat of being sacked to be sent to her in writing. Tell her to not agree to it, but to request it. See if the idiot really is this bloody stupid.
Phone ACAS. They’ll confirm your mothers rights and can offer advice.
Allow the manager to take whatever foolish steps he wants, but keep re-iterating she is NOT agreeing to the change of terms and dont sign anything.
Wait to see what happens. He either has someone kick some sense into him (probs HR) oooor she’ll have an interesting tribunal claim if he gets as far as sacking her or making her place of work so uncomfortable she quits. Breach of contract or constructive dismissal. Lets see which one.
But seriously, ACAS is your friend. X
One_Koala_3511@reddit (OP)
Hiya thanks for your reply, I misunderstood her he isn't firing in one week but hes given her 1 week to think about it and then he'll start the firing process, and there's nothing in writing, he just went up to her during her shift today and told her, she asked if she could record the conversation as she has bad memory and he said no which I thought was strange. According to her work friends some have reported this to HR and HR said they won't get involved
ResourceShot8427@reddit
She needs to say to him she needs what he said in writing to be able to consider the formal offer.
Perpetua11y_C0nfused@reddit
Raise a grievance. Then HR have to get involved. What pussys! Thats literally their job!!
So the bottom line is shes thought about it. Answer is still no. :D
Mental_Body_5496@reddit
And we assume the manager has put it all in writing ✍️
Perpetua11y_C0nfused@reddit
If he suddenly sees sense, and doesnt, he’ll have a tough job enforcing it.
Also, if hes said it infront of anybody else, then there are witnesses.
Mental_Body_5496@reddit
Exactly - OP needs to confirm with mum if both the new shift pattern and the 1 week termination are in writing.
If not - she needs to email the manager - further to our conversation yesterday containing the following shift changes and consequences (write out the threat).
I am taking professional advice and copying in HR for their confirmation of process.
Or such like
One_Koala_3511@reddit (OP)
Thanks ill tell her to do this, nothing was in writing he just went up to her during her shift today and she asked to record it as she has bad memory and he said no
Mental_Body_5496@reddit
Oooh !
Absolutely get her to put that in writing
Im emailing you as you know I have a poor memory to confirm our conversation.
Does your mum have health issues work are aware of like the poor memory?
damapplespider@reddit
I’d ask this in r/LegalAdviceUK
Thalamic_Cub@reddit
Seconding, legitimately brilliant sub.
TheAireon@reddit
Is it? They'll just tell OP that yeah it's legal and offer absolutely nothing else because it doesn't fall under legal advice.
Odd_Sir4792@reddit
Isn't that literally what OP is asking for though?
TheAireon@reddit
Pretty sure OP is looking for a way to combat this, not be told tough luck.
Because of course this is all legal, you think a huge supermarket is breaking employment law like that?
satinpads-0j@reddit
Plot twist: we found the manager.
Buddy-Matt@reddit
Rogue managers exist. There's every chance this is something they're doing unilaterally without the sign-off, or even knowledge, of the supermarket chain.
It may also be that most employees are already working highly variable shifts, where a change like this isnt as impactful, and OP's mum and her stable for years shift patterns is an outlier, and somehow contractually relevant in her benefit.
And it's possible that it is all legal and OP's mum is screwed, but at least OP will gave been told that by a sub ran by lawyers instead of never asking because that might be the case.
knotatwist@reddit
What's there to combat if it's legal?
Also, what about the massive equal pay claims going through court at the moment? Sainsbury's is one of the supermarkets being claimed against. Tesco was caught failing to pay national minimum wage to it's staff in 2020 as well.
Someone with knowledge of employment law will at least let OP know what their legal options are (if any)
Odd_Sir4792@reddit
Look at the questions they've asked - they are all legal questions.
atomic_mermaid@reddit
...because it's a legal advice sub, not a "here's what to do when it's legal but you don't like it" sub. If it's not a legal query there's no advice to give.
TheAireon@reddit
And legal advice is not actually what OP wants or needs.
atomic_mermaid@reddit
What OP wants and the general concept of the legal advice sub aren't the same thing.
One_Koala_3511@reddit (OP)
Hii thanks for the advice, I did, I just thought incase anyone here has gone through something similar 👍
Lunaspoona@reddit
Call ACAS and have the contract ready to quote to them. They are supposed to be impartial but are usually pretty good at telling you what can and can't be done, they also have templates you can use to put stuff in writing etc. The service is free but the phone call is not. Most people on the legal advice sub will advise you to do this.
One_Koala_3511@reddit (OP)
Thank you I'll let her know
Mr-Incy@reddit
The easy answer is yes a company can change working hours with notice, a lot of contracts will have something in them that says that.
There should be a consultation period where everyone is given a chance to argue their reasoning for not being able to change hours, or work at certain hours, but the reason will have to be legitimate and not just 'I don't want to do that',
First thing your mum needs to do is get a copy of the contract she signed, and make sure it is the actual copy with her signature on it. She can then check the contract for anything about changing working hours, if there isn't then she might have something to prevent it happening but it still may need further consulatation.
She may have a bit more leeway given a lot of the workforce are on part time hours, which means she may not have to change her hours if there are enough people available to work the new hours being proposed.
The manager can't simply threaten to fire someone, there needs to be more substance to it, if she can get the wording the manager used in writing she possibly can use it as a form of bullying/harrassment.
She can also speak to HR, explain what is going on, give her reason for not being able to work late evenings and see what their response is.
One_Koala_3511@reddit (OP)
Hiya thanks for your reply, I misunderstood her he isn't firing in one week but hes given her 1 week to think about it and then he'll start the firing process, and there's nothing in writing, he just went up to her during her shift today and told her, she asked if she could record the conversation as she has bad memory and he said no which I thought was strange. According to her work friends some have reported this to HR and HR said they won't get involved. And she called the store to ask him for her contract and he said its not at the store and he cant get it for her, she needs to find it on her work app ukg pro but we had a look and couldn't find anything
Mr-Incy@reddit
Tell her to speak to HR about the contract as they should have a copy of it on her employee file.
Bifanarama@reddit
First thing she needs to do is ask for a copy of the contract she signed 10 years ago.
One_Koala_3511@reddit (OP)
Hi thanks for responding, she called the store and asked him and he said it was on her ukg pro app but we've not been able to find it
Emotional-Sleep3484@reddit
Stop doing things over the phone - start emailing. Everything.
Greatgrowler@reddit
I believe the contract they are talking about was regarding flexible working. If your hours were perhaps Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, 10-4 each day, so 12 hours, you had to nominate a further 6 hours (50% of your contract) that they could flex you into instead.
Illustrious-Milk6518@reddit
I don’t know the answer, but please can you give us an update when you find out more? I would love to know how this plays out 😂🍿 That manager sounds like they have no clue how to actually manage people
Realistic-Abroad5231@reddit
As others have said ACAS are the people to contact if she isn't in a union. There's an element of custom and practice if she has worked the same shifts unchanged for years. She should ask for anything from the manager in writing not word of mouth. Always have a paper trail, including an electronic one. Put a subject access request for all work documentation pertaining to her which will include any contract.
BrazilianStagnBull@reddit
That is Sainsbury’s! That’s fresh shit!
BigFaithlessness618@reddit
Can they change your shifts? Yes Can they fire you for not changing your shifts ? Yes
Does your mum have a good reason not to work late other than I don't want to?
One_Koala_3511@reddit (OP)
Hii thanks for replying, yeah it seems to be leading this way, no she doesn't have a good excuse really
PerformerOk450@reddit
As above contact ACAS, costs nothing.
One_Koala_3511@reddit (OP)
Thank you
andercode@reddit
Contracts at Sainsbury's do include the allowance for shift changes, and have done for years, so yes, it's likely he is right. Your mum's been lucky historically, had a good boss that has honoured her hours, but Sainsbury's do work on a shift-based contract, and these can change.
So;
One_Koala_3511@reddit (OP)
Hi thanks for replying, yeah it seems like this is the case
MaximumTop6714@reddit
This needs upvoting so much more.
zippy890@reddit
Is she in USDAW?
Streathamite@reddit
If she works for a supermarket she should really be a member of a trade union. USDAW would be the best one. Check if she is and get her to contact her union rep
HollyGoLately@reddit
Ok so when I worked for Sainsbury’s they did this to my entire department and it was one manager on a power trip, but in our contracts there was a whole needs of the business, 12 weeks notice sign or goodbye thing. It’s completely wrong but can be done if their contract is the same as the one I had. I’ve got a much better paid job that requires half the effort now. Employees are just a number, whatever the outcome I’d advise looking for another job anyway.
BoopingBurrito@reddit
Are her hours in her contract, or is she a shift worker who just happens to have been assigned the same shifts for quite a few years?
Thats the key thing here.
Unless her contract specifies the exact shifts she's going to work, yes they can.
Contracts remain binding on both parties as long as they are active.
This would depend on the specifics of their disciplinary policy. If she's refusing to turn up for her assigned shifts, she'll then undergo a disciplinary process. How long that takes depends on the policy and process of the company in question. I'd be surprised if it was just a week that it took, but they may have a clause in their about missing a certain number of shifts without reasonable excuse being gross misconduct and warranting immediate dismissal.
She has the same rights as every other UK employee and whatever other rights are in her contract. Unless the contract specifies her shifts, she has no right to demand specific shifts.
What is her reasoning for this? If its health related (ie commuting after dark would be dangerous because of poor eyesight) then she does have a legal leg to stand on, but she needs to make that case to the employer in the proper way, using the right language, in order for them to take it seriously.
DIY_at_the_Griffs@reddit
Yes they likely can, usually it’d be with a period of notice, 2-4 weeks perhaps. Ultimately the answer is yes, if the employee is not able to do what’s asked of them then they don’t need to continue employing that person.
It’s unfair if I’m honest and there should be no reason that they can’t continue your mums hours if that’s what she wants.
Frankly, I wonder if it’s a method of making her quit if the new manager doesn’t have a fond opinion of your mum.
spudfish83@reddit
The contract will give a set number of weeks notice of contract change. 15 years service should ensure the maximum number of weeks notice.
At asda that was 4 weeks. The idea is you are given 4 weeks grace to change your life around for the needs of the business, because business!
I strongly advice your mum to get what he said in writing 'for her records' and get further union advice if possible. This sounds like bullying honestly and she needs as much concrete proof as possible, as this is awful management. Maybe ask the store manager for guidance too, it may be he's asking in a rogue manner unbeknownst to their boss!
Could be a useful time fo update the old CV too.
Best of luck to her!
Afinkawan@reddit
You need to know if this is true or not. What exactly does the contract say?
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