how do you lean a mixture?
Posted by Repulsive-Loan5215@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 141 comments
I know this may sound stupid, but in my flight training days, when flying carbureted airplanes, you would pull the mixture until you see a drop in rpm. However, I saw a video on YouTube of a man flying a C172, and he did not lean the mixture based off rpm, but based off of the “EGT” gauge. I have never seen this gauge, nor have planes I’ve flown with had it. So my question is, what are you looking for on the EGT gauge?
AlbiMappaMundi@reddit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VfiPuheeGw
xia03@reddit
mike bush is a self proclaimed expert without proper engineering background who sometimes says absurd and even dangerous stuff. take him with a good grain of salt!
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
Everything he talks about WRT leaning is based on work other people, mostly engineers in the world of piston engines, have done and studies of engines on test stands. Dismiss it at your own peril.
xia03@reddit
he often contradicts manufacturer service instructions and limits. he thinks he knows better than the producers of the engine. I don't care what he thinks about leaning, even if he happens to be correct on that particular topic. there are more reliable sources for the leaning procedures such as Lycoming, Continental, Superior etc. Experiment at your own peril
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
Actually a lot of his point is that often these old POHs (written by lawyers fifty years ago) contradict current instructions from the actual engine manufacturers. I'd recommend you watch his videos because you seem to misunderstand what he says.
For example, you assert that he contradicts engine manufacturer instructions... This is totally incorrect. If you watch his "leaning basics" video, you'd see that his recommendation for economy cruise is to pull mixture until rough and then enrichen only enough to run smooth. Guess what Lycoming recommends?
https://www.lycoming.com/content/leaning-lycoming-engines
xia03@reddit
i do not dispute his leaning lot. to give you specific examples where he is contradicting manufacturers data
assertion that cylinders should be kept below 380F and that higher temps weaken the aluminum strength. while its true for any metal the cylinders are built to withstand maximum temps of 500 without damage. it is preposterous to claim that 380 is some kind of limit you should aim for. this a contradiction. engine manufacturers warn most of the harmful deposits accumulate in the valves and elsewhere when the engine consistently runs on the cooler side.
cold starts at temperatures above the minimum recommended by the manufacturer but lower than some arbitrary figure he recommends (eg 50F) produce wear on the engine equivalent to 500 hours of flying for each of the cold starts. this is anecdotal data at best and incorrect (4 cold starts puts the engine at the TBO?)
lapping valve seats in place using an abrasive compound. this is dangerous and can introduce abrasive into the engine and do damage you would not able to see. the compound is extremely harmful even in microscopic amounts. this practice completely unapproved and does not appear in any service instruction. witchcraft.
there are other examples but this gives an idea.
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
He doesn't claim it as a limit. He recommend staying below it if possible. His actual recommended limits are 400 and 420 IIRC for Lyco and Conti.
Which he echoes as he says infinitely cooler is not better for many reasons including deposits. I think you should actually read his recommendations before believing he says something he doesn't.
I don't recall him ever saying a start at 49F would wear the engine as much as 500 hours lol. Can you cite where he says that?
Re: lapping in-place: yeah, that's a "field procedure" that the manufacturers don't describe. It's not unique to Busch, though - most mechanics will do it.
xia03@reddit
i dont think i can say anything to change your opinion. im relying on what ive learned from attending lycoming and superior presentations by engineers with vast experience and data sets for engines they produced over many decades. these folks are not in agreement with whatever mike preaches.
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
Interesting, because he preaches the same thing they recommend.
xia03@reddit
that is exactly why i'm skeptical. I don't know when he is going to deviate and whether it's safe to follow his advice. in the earlier comment you agreed that lapping in place was not in any documents. If this shortcut was acceptable there would be a service instruction for it.
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
Only if it removed liability from the engine manufacturer. Manuals are not just written with safety in mind, but with liability for the manufacturer. The whole reason many mechanics will happily lap-in-place despite there being no formal instruction for it is because it's a safe procedure that actually increases the likelihood of a positive outcome, but it requires technique and skill from the mechanic whereas following a 200-step procedure for removing and replacing the cylinder head, on paper, doesn't. The manufacturer carries less liability if their instruction is "follow these 300 steps exactly correctly to remove the head, lap the valves, and replace the head" versus if they try to explain the relatively subjective process of lapping in place. Therefore, even though a mechanic is far more likely to fuck up the remove and replace method, it's preferable for the manufacturer to recommend it because if it gets messed up they can just blame the mechanic for missing 1 step.
There are often situations where the procedures are written to protect the manufacturers liability, not the pilot's safety. Rigid adherence to the manuals is not always the best practice. In fact, in the beginning of all Air Force aircraft manuals (the dash one), it specifically says this manual is no replacement for sound pilot judgement. Private companies won't say that because of the liability risks.
xia03@reddit
this is a convenient excuse that anyone can use to do any sort of dumb thing to the aircraft. “look, it’s safe and easy and it will save you money, but the manufacturer is hiding the trick from you because they are afraid to be sued”. the problem is if they had to refute each unapproved maintenance procedure they would not have time left to do anything else. they choose to simply stay silent in most cases. but they don’t want you put an abrasive compound inside the cylinder. it harms the engine no matter who does it.
crazy_pilot742@reddit
He also parots other people's talking points a lot. Most of his engine operating advice is just John Deakin's stuff.
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
That's a super long video explaining in depth why leaning as much as practical is best practice, with engineering data to back it up, and it's only one of MANY videos Busch has made (not to mention probably a dozen detailed articles) and yet people still don't get it and say wildly wrong things about leaning.
holl0918@reddit
This is the way
classysax4@reddit
Second this. This will be the most educational video you've ever watched about how your engine works and how to handle it.
turpentinedreamer@reddit
Lean to the hottest egt temp. Then back it down based on poh for that aircraft. Usually 50-100°F below peak.
If you go beyond hottest egt that’s when the engine gets rough.
AlexJamesFitz@reddit
In this house, we stan Mike Busch.
dirtbikekid27@reddit
Well that's a great question! As a CFI in training, tell me how my explanation is. It depends on the POH of your airplane, however, it's typical for people to lean their mixture to peak EGT, so the hottest temp. Some people also lean it to just lean of peak egt, so lean a little past the peak EGT, and some people lean just Rich of peak EGT. The biggest thing you have to worry about running to lean is smoking the exhaust valves. I've seen some Cessna's that have a fuel flow right next to the egt, and you lean to balance between lowest fuel consumption and middle temperature. To make things even MORE confusing, they have airplanes that have gauges that tell you the Cylinder Heat Temperatures (CHT), and there's a manufacturer specified limit that you don't want to exceed for long, so you lean it until it gets to that temp, and richen it if you have to keep it a bit cooler. I know that's a lot of word jumble, but I hope it helps a little bit.
Bunslow@reddit
this is one of those things where ive heard ten different answers from five different people
66hans66@reddit
Wait until you hear the debates about leaning to lean of peak.
jetmech09@reddit
It really just shouldn't be a debate, and not because LOP is inherently more dangerous theoretically (I would argue that it is, because of less lubrication for the valves but that's irrelevant to my point). It's that it can go wrong WAY faster.
It's a human factors problem.
The entire goal of aviation safety is to do the safest thing. Trying to manage LOP operations is inherently not safe because it requires constant monitoring for CHTs and introduces more complications / distractions.
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
That's bullshit. LOP isn't unsafe at all. To say that is honestly wild.
jetmech09@reddit
Of course this is mike bush. lol. Not even going to acknowledge your comment past that.
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
The ideas in that video come from highly instrumented studies of many engines on sophisticated test stands and published best practices from engine manufacturers. People dismissing that and following hanger talk and old wive's tales instead is exactly the sort of silliness in GA engine management that I complained about elsewhere on this post.
jetmech09@reddit
You are insufferable & incorrect. Last I checked, a&p’s aren’t deciding to run LOP or ROP, and that decision has nothing to do with failure rates until the pilot mismanages LOP.
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
I'm no more insufferable than you are, since you started the convo and are still replying.
You stated very clearly that you think running LOP is "inherently unsafe" and bad practice and pilots are too dumb to manage it properly. All of that is objectively false, and it's not even a matter of opinion. There is data to back up the fact that you are wrong.
jetmech09@reddit
Current certifications / factory trainings: Lycoming, rolls royce tay series, rolls royce RB series, Gulfstream II - 650, Airbus EC135, EC145, AS350, Caterpillar, Jenbacher , JD Tier IV 100HP+ diesels, Kubota diesels (all models), Cummins off-road, Yanmar diesels, off the top of my head. I've engineered CHP plants to run Propane / Natural Gas / Wood Gas without changing the head.
There's a reason that on every single modern piece of equipment we don't let the operator select / modify the fuel air ratio. Some of it is emissions, yes. Some of it is also longevity.
The problem here is that you have training flying an airplane. I have a career fixing powerplants ranging from gasoline powered, air cooled 4 bangers to 12 cylinder 2MW generators. I don't pretend I can fly an aircraft full of 300 passengers. You shouldn't pretend to know what causes engines to fail, particularly when your education is youtube and not factory training / real world experience.
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
Interesting, because all auto engines run significantly LOP in normal operation. Auto makers are aware that letting users select ROP would slowly destroy their engines and auto makers want to avoid unnecessary repairs.
Actually, I'm formally trained in engine repair, too, and do it frequently. Which you'd have known if you'd been curious about me at all, but you're not.
Really? Then don't tell pilots we're not capable of safely managing the engine LOP.
This conversation is not productive and is a fabulous example of why I avoid taking my airplane to general aviation mechanics as much as possible.
jetmech09@reddit
Once again incorrect. Auto engines only run LOP at low load and the FA ratio is determined by the O2 sensors, typically running around 14.7:1. Under load or acceleration, 13:1 is typical to protect engine components ;).
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
Don't be disingenuous. Low load is cruise, which is the vast majority of the time an auto engine is in operation. Nearly all auto engines are LOP in the range of 15:1 or 16:1 for the majority of the time they're running. GDI engines go even leaner.
;)
66hans66@reddit
And here we are. We've arrived at the LOP debate, just like I said.
jetmech09@reddit
Not really, because it’s not about LOP. Meanwhile, someone below here is arguing that lean until rough and add fuel is LOP.
The end of the entire thing is do what your fucking book tells you. It doesn’t matter when it was written, or what Mike Bush says. When Joe PPL crashes into a house and kills the family and he’s okay and his fancy AI chat GPT engine monitor tells the FAA he was running LOP against the manufacturer recommendations, Joe PPL will never fly again.
39509835@reddit
My 182s poh says specifically not to do that
ChainringCalf@reddit
Your POH must not want you to blow up your engine
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
LOP doesn't blow up your engine. It's actually much better for your engine than ROP.
ChainringCalf@reddit
If we're talking lean of stoich, that's just not true
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
It's a fact. Plenty of data you can read about it. LOP results in an cooler engine, less lead fouling, and better noted overall engine conditions at overhauls.
ChainringCalf@reddit
You're right. My bad
shockadin1337@reddit
Meanwhile the A36 TN STC SA5223NM AFM supplement gives you cruise settings/checklists to run the engine LOP which they say is preferred
mkosmo@reddit
Different engines, different injectors, different operating rules.
aeroxan@reddit
And modern engine instruments.
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
And modern knowledge of what happens inside the engine when you run ROP or LOP.
ChainringCalf@reddit
Also just different instruments placed in different locations. You definitely don't want to go significantly lean of stoich, but how that presents is going to be different for different planes. No idea why we don't just use O2 sensors like every modern fuel injected car does to trim fuel at cruise.
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
Because the lead in avgas kills the o2 sensors.
AHappySnowman@reddit
It’s always fun when your airplane turns into a glider.
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
On which page? I have a copy and it doesn't say that.
39509835@reddit
182P 4-17
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
OK, a P not S. That was written fifty years ago. Believe it or not, we know more about engines nowadays than we did back then.
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
Sure but check which ones have scientific and engineering data to back them up. Only some of the answers to this question are actually correct. Most are old hanger tales with zero basis in reality.
Raumteufel@reddit
You wont believe number 7!!!
shadeland@reddit
A&Ps don't want you to know this one simple trick!
mild-blue-yonder@reddit
/thread
Jwylde2@reddit
Leaning on EGT is pointless on carbureted engines due to the uneven fuel distribution. Lycoming recommends leaning to the point of stumble, then richening to smooth engine operation.
fluentInPotato@reddit
Just be aware that 'automatic advance systems' are still pretty rare. Your standard Slick/ Bendix mags are going to run at the same advance (20-25° depending on engine model) from 150rpm onwards. It's only electronic ignition units, such as Lycoming's EIS, that are going to provide you with variable advance.
Jwylde2@reddit
Yes, and that's one of the advantages of going to electronic ignition (Lycoming EIS is basically a rebranded SureFly). Having the variable advance allows for safer LOP operation, which yields fuel savings.
ElectroAir High Energy Ignition is another one with electronic advance.
johnisom@reddit
Not “full rich” in the climb if the departure airport is above 3000 DA. More correct would be to say during the climb, you just leave the mixture in the setting you set during the runup.
Jwylde2@reddit
You need to read Lycoming Service Instruction 1094D -
https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/attachments/Fuel%2520Mixture%2520Leaning%2520Procedures.pdf
johnisom@reddit
It’s 5000 ft DA according to that, yep. The POH’s I’ve read with lycoming engines have mentioned 3000 DA before.
hazcan@reddit
Wouldn’t leaning to the point of stumble, then richening to smooth be lean of peak at that point?
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
Usually, yes. Especially in a fuel injected setup. Some carbs have horrible mixture distribution and can't do that, though, so roughness starts before LOP.
primalbluewolf@reddit
No, it depends on the engine setup.
Lord_Giles@reddit
It would be for one of the cylinders.
Skrenlin@reddit
Not in my experience on my o-360-a1a. There was still a long way to go for peak egt after it started to run rough.
66hans66@reddit
Also if you're going to go LOP, you ideally need suitable injectors and EGT probes for each cylinder.
Jwylde2@reddit
And CHT per cylinder…even more important.
RogueMallard@reddit
*except in radials
Comfortable_Client80@reddit
You mean before tdc?
Jwylde2@reddit
No, I mean AFTER TDC.
The mixture is lit before TDC. But peak cylinder pressure occurs AFTER TDC.
Comfortable_Client80@reddit
Ho ok I understood your message as mixture is lit at 17 after tdc!
digital_dyslexia@reddit
Man it really sucks that CFIs are not teaching this stuff. No wonder I’ve dealt with fouled plugs as many times as I have, and if you’re a CFI who doesn’t specifically touch on leaning as a lesson then shame on you.
EGT will change instantly with the mixture, CHT will change slowly. Use EGT to dial it in and monitor CHT to ensure you aren’t too lean
slendermanboxedwine@reddit
Leaning is directly proportional to 110LL prices
Greenbench27@reddit
Once you get up to altitude just pull the red knob all the way out you’ll see
I-r0ck@reddit
As you lean the mixture it gets closer to the perfect air/fuel mixture. Once you reach that perfect mixture, the exhaust gas temperature(EGT) will be at its hottest point and leaning mire will add more air than needed and cause the temperature to start to decrease again. Running Lean of Peak is when you lean the mixture past that peak temperature and that saves fuel
dopexile@reddit
Peak EGT is a terrible place to run at because that's where cylinder head temperatures are highest, and it will put a lot of additional wear and tear on an engine, leading to early overhauls and failures.
Similar-Subject-1720@reddit
That’s not necessarily true. The charts from Continental on page 35 of this excellent set of articles actually implies that 50F rich of peak EGT is where peak CHT is: https://www.advancedpilot.com/downloads/prep.pdf
dopexile@reddit
That chart basically shows that if you run anywhere near max EGT, then the CHT is going to be high (the peaks don't coincide perfectly). Whereas if you run the engine LOP, then things are going to be way cooler and put less wear on the engine.
SeaMareOcean@reddit
And yet the Continental IO-520-BA specifically prohibits LOP operation.
You’re speaking in generalities when the real answer is 100% it depends on the engine and airframe. Read the POH and engine manual for leaning guidance.
dopexile@reddit
I did a quick search, and they prohibit LOP on that engine at power settings higher than 75%. That is kind of obvious, when you are 75-100% power, you need to be a heavily enriched mixture to provide cooling and provide a detonation margin.
No reason to run higher than 75% power in cruise because it burns way more fuel and drag increases exponentially, so the time savings is very minimal. You might go 5-10% faster but burn 20-30% more fuel and cause more wear on your engine.
SeaMareOcean@reddit
Then you conducted your search poorly. The manual for the engine specifically says “Lean of peak operations prohibited,” without the caveat of power setting.
The Bonanza F33A POH does call out power setting in its section on leaning, but at less than 75% power. Here, I’ll quote it:
But I only fly the fucking thing daily, what do I know.
dopexile@reddit
Sure, but that is all stuff that was written decades ago that was proven to be bad advice. They are recommending you run your engine at the absolute worst possible setting that will cause maximum wear on the engine. The AOPA article I posted talks quite a bit about that.
SeaMareOcean@reddit
You really will argue anything.
My model year and POH was written in 1988. And you realize they can be updated and revised, don’t you? The first 25 pages of my POH are the revision log, the most recent being 2011. And yet the rich of peak instruction remains, despite all the apparent destruction it has wrought.
And at no point, ever, does an AOPA article supersede the POH.
Anyway, this is ridiculous. I’m done. Clearly you’ll need the last word on how you’re smarter than the engineers. Have at it.
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
Engineers aren't the ones writing the POH.
Similar-Subject-1720@reddit
Sure, but many POHs call for 50F ROP which I’m noting is closer to the worst case CHT. That said, forget about trying to precision lean a carbureted anyway, even with good sensors. Everything is a trade off.
dopexile@reddit
A lot of those POHs were written decades ago with lots of bad information.
Q: My POH recommends leaning to 50 degrees Fahrenheit rich of peak EGT, but your articles/webinars/books seem to say I shouldn’t do this. What’s with that?
The real-world red box is defined by CHT rather than PCP. The real-world red box is defined by CHT rather than PCP. A: In the 1960s or 1970s when your airplane’s POH was written, engineers believed this was a good way to lean the engine. Since then, we’ve learned a lot more about the effect of mixture on the combustion event—largely through the research efforts of George Braly at the world’s most advanced piston aircraft engine test facility he created at General Aviation Modifications Inc. (GAMI) in Ada, Oklahoma—and we now know that 50 degrees F rich of peak is very nearly the worst possible mixture for engine longevity. I recommend against leaning to 50 degrees rich of peak because I want your engine to live long and prosper.
https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2023/january/pilot/savvy-maintenance-egt
cecilkorik@reddit
*Engine manufacturers over there giving the sideeye* "Honestly, we didn't know that until now, we promise! And it is important to understand that we certainly received no financial benefit from this error. It was in the name of safety! Safety!"
LT_Alter@reddit
It’s also very dependent on what % power you’re operating at. You can’t hurt most engines at any mixture setting at 65% power or less. Since I have a carbureted engine I can’t reliably run LOP, so when I want maximum efficiency I run at 65% power and lean until roughness which is right around peak EGT and my CHTs stay under 400F.
As the other guy said, 50F ROP (which many POH recommends) is just about the worst mixture setting for CHTs so above 65% power I run well rich of peak and monitor my CHTs to keep them around 400F and will richen or reduce power if they creep above there.
dopexile@reddit
That's all correct. Trying to run LOP at a high power setting is a bad idea. You need to be ROP to provide extra cooling and detonation margin.
fixedvving@reddit
Lol what i used to do is pull back till rpm drop/engine starts dying and then give it a lil bumb or twist up
Open-Refrigerator245@reddit
I always either used EGT gauge or lean it until you get a drop in RPM and do 2-3 turns more rich
perispomene@reddit
It can be complicated. Here are Lycoming's instructions:
https://www.lycoming.com/content/leaning-lycoming-engines
3minence@reddit
From that page:
"if the EGT probe is installed, lean the mixture to 100˚ F on the rich side of peak EGT for best power operation.
For best economy cruise, operate at peak EGT. If roughness is encountered, enrich the mixture slightly for smooth engine operation."
TopAfraid9867@reddit
This is the way I've always done it. 100* rich of peak.
FlyByPC@reddit
Would best-RPM be a reasonable surrogate for best-power, with a fixed-pitch prop?
Flimsy-Ad-858@reddit
Effectively yes.
SirEDCaLot@reddit
Okay here's a slightly longer answer.
To understand leaning, you need to understand stochiometric balance. Basically- each molecule of fuel requires a certain number of oxygen molecules to burn. So for most efficient combustion, the cylinder would be packed full of the exact right mix of fuel and air, so when it all burns every fuel molecule has exactly the right number of oxygen molecules and after combustion finishes there's nothing left over. We call this 'peak', because it results in the highest exhaust temperature and also highest efficiency.
In reality, this almost never happens, for a few reasons.
The biggest is most of the Lycoming/Continental engines airplanes use aren't balanced- when one cylinder has the perfect ratio, others will be different. A company called GAMI has a fuel injector swap program where you swap fuel injectors for slightly higher/lower flow ones to compensate for this and bring all cylinders in line with one another. But I digress.
The bigger reason is heat. When the cylinder gets optimal ratio of fuel and air, especially at high throttle levels, the maximum amount of heat is created by the combustion. That heat is more than the engine and cylinder heads are really designed for. Thus, you run the engine rich- more fuel molecules than oxygen molecules, leaving unburned fuel to cool the cylinder heads. Expensive way to cool the cylinders, but it works. Downside is those unburned fuel molecules are expelled in your exhaust, and cause deposits in the exhaust system. Also you're flushing money in order to cool your cylinders.
Thus, you lean the engine- reduce the amount of fuel injected in the cylinders. You do this for two reasons. First, as you go up at higher altitudes, the air is thin so there's fewer molecules of oxygen in each cylinder-full of air. So injecting the same amount of fuel as on the ground means the mixture is even more rich ratio-wise, more than is necessary or wanted. Second, when you're in cruise you're not at full throttle, so you can safely get much closer to peak efficiency without overheating.
So the overall principle is that you pull back the red lever, reduce the fuel flow, and change the fuel-air mixture to lean (less fuel per unit of air).
Now the engine doesn't have a 'stoichiometric balance display'. So you have to figure out in other ways what's going on.
In an engine without a monitor, the only way you can tell is with roughness. As you get too lean, there's not enough fuel to allow for consistent combustion, and the result is roughness. So you lean until roughness then un-lean a little. Imprecise, but effective.
In an engine WITH a monitor, you can see the EGT and CHT of each cylinder. The EGT tells you exactly what's going on- at a given altitude and throttle level, as you lean slowly you'll see the EGT climb up as you get close to perfect stoichiometric balance (peak), because at full rich there's unburned fuel cooling the cylinder, at peak there's none. Once you pass peak, you'll see EGT drop because now there's extra air in the cylinder that isn't used for combustion keeping it cool. And you want no matter what to keep cylinder heads below the temp specified by your engine manufacturer.
This leads to the discussion on running 'rich of peak' (ROP) or 'lean of peak' (LOP).
Running LOP is ideal- you'll get cleaner combustion, less crud in the exhaust system, and less fuel burn. However it only works if the cylinders are fairly close to one another. There's a narrow range for a cylinder between peak and roughness, and it's common for an engine to have a spread so that by the time the hottest cylinder is lean of peak, the coolest cylinder is running rough. That's what the GAMI product is designed for, to reduce that spread.
To do this you lean and watch all 4 EGTs until the coldest one peaks (it'll be the last to peak), then drops by around 50°. That gives you one cylinder running 50° LOP, and the others even more lean. If the engine is running smooth and your CHTs are good, congrats you leaned LOP and you'll get economic cruise flight.
Running ROP is more common- most people shoot for around 50° rich of peak on the hottest cylinder. So you lean out until the hottest cylinder starts to drop (it'll be the first to peak), then enrich slowly until it drops around 50°. That gives you one cylinder running 50° ROP, and the others even more rich.
Hope that helps!
--Bolter--@reddit
Slightly rich of peak EGT for best power. Peak EGT for best economy.
My club’s 172 has a JPI engine monitor. It makes leaning for cruise so easy. I like to lean to about 1450 EGT and cruise at ~2400 rpm and ~8 GPH. I’m mostly doing 1-1.5 hr legs in that thing though
Select_Respond_8627@reddit
If you're renting from a school, don't bother.
At least that's what it seems like everyone else is doing according to the spark plugs I've had to clean.
if_a_sloth-it_sleeps@reddit
If you’re flying something super simple like a little tri-pacer you basically have one knob that is the mixture/rpm/throttle. However, as you start getting into bigger more powerful planes you’ll be able to independently adjust and control the mixture going to the carb, the rpm by adjusting the pitch of the prop, and the throttle.
As you’re trying to climb, descend, fly level, slow down, etc you have a bunch of different “levers” you can manipulate. Each affect the state of the airplane differently.
You could climb more slowly, open/close cowl flaps, change the rpm, etc. mixture is one of the primary ways to control engine temperature.
On a small airplane you can’t manipulate things independently… on complex airplanes you have a lot finer control of everything
R5Jockey@reddit
Pull until scared, then push in a bit.
airlineuser@reddit
Actual lol
taytayflyfly@reddit
It depends on the equipment you have. Watch Savvy aviation (YouTube) for the most complete discussion on the matter.
theexodus326@reddit
In accordance with your aircrafts POH
Slippery_when_RA@reddit
It’ll depend on what kind of mixture you want and if you’re following the POH. You’d lean it out till you hit the hottest temperature. That’s called peak EGT. Most manufacturers will have you enrichen the mixture back so the temperature drops again. Ideally you’d have someway to mark the peak (most instruments have a needle you can move).
RecentAmbition3081@reddit
When running PW 985’s we’d lean till they barked, then richen a bit. I can get into leaning with Torque pressure gages and BMEP gages, but it will just confuse you new guys.
nhorvath@reddit
this also assumes the egt gauge in your old trainer still works (I haven't seen one)
EliteEthos@reddit
I have a 150. No engine monitor or egt.
I lean until I get a drop in rpm and go back just enough to get those RPMs back. It stays there.
On a lot of Cessnas I’ve flown, I end up pulling the mixture about the length of my index fingertip to the first joint. It’s repeatable and gives me a physical reference.
DisregardLogan@reddit
Another 150 guy, I do the same. I lean it until it just barely starts to roughen up and then keep it right above that.
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
Y'all are talking about two different leaning methods, though.
EliteEthos is leaning to peak power (probably 50-100F rich of peak, which produces the hottest CHTs and most wear on the engine). You're leaning to just whatever's the leanest possible place, which may be LOP although probably not.
EliteEthos@reddit
My engine runs like a top right there.
CaptainReginaldLong@reddit
It's really simple, lean to peak, then slightly enrichen. Done.
mkosmo@reddit
I don't have an EGT in my airplane. I lean by ear. Lean until rough, enrich until smooth. It's just as accurate as using the tach, if not moreso.
dopexile@reddit
On my Lycoming O-360, I put it in full throttle, put the prop to around 2250-2300 RPM, then do a quick mixture pull until the engine starts running rough. Then I push the mixture back in until it runs smoothly, and that is the lean of peak. I then keep a close eye on cylinder head temperatures, especially if it is a hot day.
jetmech09@reddit
That's rich of peak, boss.
dopexile@reddit
It's LOP, I pull the mixture way back and give the engine just barely enough fuel to run smoothly. ROP is when the mixture is far forward.
jetmech09@reddit
Nope. LOP is lean to peak EGT and then lean (less fuel) even more. So you would lean until rough and then lean more.
pilot_in_command@reddit
This is a great document I just recently found after switching to a 182 and installing an EI engine monitor:
https://iflyei.com/wp-content/uploads/EI_Pilots_Manual.pdf
cecilkorik@reddit
Since your direct question is already answered (peak EGT) I'll add some context about why you lean on different measurements and why this whole thing is so debatable:
It depends on your engine design and instrumentation. Different instrumentation setup (and different reliability of the many different factors leading to that instrumentation reading) necessitates different methods for optimal leaning in a given aircraft. It is not one-size-fits-all, it depends on how much of a guessing game you are forced into playing. Detonation happens when there is too much heat and pressure inside the cylinder. All that fuel you're burning and compression the cylinder is making is heating the air, eventually to the point that the fuel explodes instead of burning. Ironically adding extra fuel cools things down, some of the fuel won't burn because there's not enough air, and the unburned fuel acts like a cooling liquid. Adding less fuel ALSO cools things down but not as much, there is less fuel burning, and and a bit of extra air which acts as a less effective coolant. Only when fuel and air are matched are you creating the maximum amount of heat. You generally want to run either rich or lean of this, which comes with tradeoffs between fuel usage, power, and how confident you can be that NONE of your cylinders are going to stay in that dangerous peak temperature range.
No EGT means you lean based on peak RPM or "rough running" because that's all you've got. It's imprecise, peak EGT is not at peak RPM, they are slightly offset, so the way you lean with this method has to put you well into the safe territory on the rich side of things, or you're risking catastrophic engine damage with no way of finding out until it's too late. Sometimes this puts you into a different kind of "unsafe" territory where you're wasting fuel and building up carbon deposits in your engine, but that's the price of not knowing whether you're going to blow up your engine by leaning it into the wrong place. You are erring on the side of caution, instead of erring on the side of engine blowing up.
Single cylinder or combined EGT means you still probably need to lean somewhere well rich-of-peak EGT because you still don't know if you're looking at your best cylinder or your worst cylinder or somewhere in the middle, and they're all going to be operating at slightly different places on the EGT and CHT spectrum, and you don't want to run any cylinder in a bad range by accident. It's a little bit more accurate than RPM, but it's still not giving you perfect information. But some people decide this is enough, sometimes combined with an uncanny level of understanding and intuition into the operation of an engine they are very familiar with, to YOLO it with lean of peak operations on this alone, and sometimes it works out for them. You probably don't hear from the ones it doesn't work for.
Matched injectors, with full EGT and/or CHT instrumentation, you're starting to get into FADEC territory, and at this point either you, a simple fallible and unreliable human, or a nice sturdy engine computer, can tune and optimize your mixture per-cylinder with confidence, high reliability and safety.
In a perfect world with perfect information, you will have no fear of detonation or cylinder overheating. This is why modern cars don't have this mixture problem, they have computers and sensors that provide nearly perfect information about the operation of the engine. If they lose confidence in that perfect information, they go into "limp" mode, to protect the engine in the short term, sort of like you'd be doing by leaning rich of peak.
Since full engine instrumentation in certified light aircraft remains prohibitively expensive and rare, we are mostly stuck with 1960s era engine instrumentation in general aviation, and we make do with what we have by leaning in all the very stupidly rich of peak ways that mattered in the ancient trainers we learned in. This is the right decision based on the instrumentation most likely to be available, though it is not the right decision based on actual engine realities. Both sides are right, depending on the specific circumstances. So people argue about it relentlessly, neither side ever willing to admit they're wrong, because they're not. They just have different contexts, and everyone talks past each other as if their context is the only one that exists.
Dave_A480@reddit
Aircraft didn't used to have an EGT instrument, so you used RPM as a proxy for EGT (when you pass peak EGT your RPM will drop off as you move into lean-of-peak operations).
Now, most planes have an EGT and you should use peak EGT instead of peak RPM.
So you use the RPM gauge as your guide.
Also, the reason that aircraft have the ability to run excessively rich, is to cool the engine during takeoff and climb-out. Running super-rich uses evaporation of fuel to cool the engine.
You should ALWAYS lean once you reach cruising altitude, regardless of what that altitude is.
Your spark plugs and your engine will be happier, and your fuel bills will be smaller.
Russian_Bass@reddit
In the da-40 I fly we lean to about 1500 egt and then do 100 of peak, but it also corresponds to a drop in rpm
david8840@reddit
Use less butter
blacknessofthevoid@reddit
In the ideal world you want an engine analyzer so you can monitor temps in each cylinder not just one random reading or no reading at all. EGTs are used to get the optimal performance, CHTs to make sure that you are not destroying your engine in the process. Comparative costs between an engine analyzer install and engine rebuild are justifiable, even before you consider the risk of the cylinder coming apart on you in flight because it was running too hot for several years to the point of failure.
Philly514@reddit
turn the knob left until the engine starts rumbling and then turn a bit back right until the rpm returns to peak
InvestigatorOne2@reddit
RTFPOH
CSGOTRICK@reddit
Usually by pulling the red knob.
VliegendeVolneef@reddit
So, not turning it?
CSGOTRICK@reddit
that would break it on both my aircraft
RedCrabb@reddit
On the G1000 we lean until peak EGT, and then enrichen the mixture 50 degrees lower than peak
Puzzled-Camera-4426@reddit
using lean finder on the JPI, 80-100F rich of peak for an O470S.
Squawk_0877@reddit
You're looking for peak temperature,as you lean, the EGT reading climbs, hits a max, then starts to fall that peak is what you're after. Stop at peak or enrich slightly back from it that's it. Same moment you catch by ear with the RPM method, just shown as a number
ShieldPilot@reddit
Please don’t run your engine at peak EGT. Look at this: https://www.advancedpilot.com
Gooser62@reddit
This is the way!! I know both of the guys that wrote a recommendation and they are correct!!
johnfkngzoidberg@reddit
In my Arrow (complex, so no drop in RPM), you lean until you hit peak EGT (exhaust gas temperature) then enriched until the temp goes down 75 degrees or settles around 385. That’s per the POH, engine manual and EGT instructions with advice from my mechanic. You can still feel the power drop even on complex planes.
If you don’t have an EGT, you check for a drop in RPM, which is technically less accurate but just fine, follow your POH. It will typically have you run in the rich side of peak.
JimTheJerseyGuy@reddit
RPM or EGT but I’ve flown a few very old 172s that you could get close just by ear, just listening for that faint change.
shakayulu@reddit
I was taught on a 172. We leaned before taxi, takeoff, and at cruise. Might sound excessive but it keeps you conscious of your mixture at all times. Everyone will tell you a different technique. What has always worked across different models generally is to lean until you see or hear a slight drop, then opposite direction (rich) 2-3 full turns. Most explanations beyond this only serve to confuse students in my opinion.
As always, consult your POH and instructor before flying.
tehmightyengineer@reddit
EGT is more accurate.
But I've demonstrated that both methods leaning for a drop of RPM then back in a bit and leaning for 50 °F rich of peak EGT are both almost identical fuel flows.
In short, use what you have but in anything sub 200HP it won't make a huge difference.
Biggest thing with the EGT/CHT gauge is being able to better run lean of peak.
greaseorbounce@reddit
In a fuel injected plane with matched injectors and a full engine monitor, I lean aggressively lean of peak, and generally get a pretty good feeling for the airplane after a while which allows me to know a target fuel flow at a given RPM and Manifold Pressure. So I just get to cruise alt, set RPM and MAP, and then pull back to the fuel flow I know is right for that aircraft in that setup, and then monitor CHTs to make sure everything is happy. Note I did NOT say "slowly pull back looking for peak" which I firmly believe is a bad idea. I just pull straight from best power all the way back to full lean, in one smooth motion over know more than a couple seconds.
In a carbureted engine with limited instruments and an uneven mixture distribution that causes roughness well before LOP this becomes way harder. It's sometimes tough to get a carb engine to fly smoothly LOP, and if you don't have instruments that tell you what is going on, the onset of roughness can be danger zone, or perfectly fine, and you have no idea which. I generally just cruise high enough (low enough MAP) that there isn't a big risk of cylinder damage, and then lean as much as I can without roughness. If I don't have full instrumentation, I will NOT do this when low enough that I could end up in the cylinder damaging danger zone.
My LongEZ is a good example of an in-between. Carb o235, but very complete engine instruments. I know from lots of testing that I simply can't get proper lean of peak without roughness, so what now? I just go way up high where I'm making well under 65% power, where essentially any mixture is safe, and lean as much as I can without roughness.
RobotJonesDad@reddit
Might be worth mentioning that EGT is Exhaust Gas Temperature and it's a very simple probe to monitor the gas temperatures. Some setups have one probe per cylinder, which is super handy for keeping the worst cylinder happy. The need is because most of these engines were designed a long time ago and are not great at getting equal air or fuel in each cylinder.
Using the EGT is safer and more accurate than using the RPM drop. The thing to avoid is running any cylinder too close to the peak, because that creates damaging temperatures in the engine.
Dunnowhathatis@reddit
the best way to lean is off EGT as you can determine rich or lean of peak. Peak EGT occurs, then add or reduce fuel.
vismaypikachu@reddit
When I fly carbureted 6pack, I lean until I see a drop in rpm, then I enrichen it 2-3 turns.
On the g1000, I lean so that the EGT indicator is just between the “E” and the “G” under the label. If I’m feeling fancy, I can use the lean assist feature.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I know this may sound stupid, but in my flight training days, when flying carbureted airplanes, you would pull the mixture until you see a drop in rpm. However, I saw a video on YouTube of a man flying a C172, and he did not lean the mixture based off rpm, but based off of the “EGT” gauge. I have never seen this gauge, nor have planes I’ve flown with had it. So my question is, what are you looking for on the EGT gauge?
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