He replied back saying they were ‘homosocial’ basically only friends with other men, and had no interest in changing that.

It’s like, they’ve recognise there is an issue but women were some odd other species who could never be people to be friends with.

I found it so odd

[-]

Regular_Committee946@reddit

It’s like, they’ve recognise there is an issue but women were some odd other species who could never be people to be friends with

You see this echoed in the modern 'there aren't enough positive male role models'

A) there are tonnes, it is just that many don't fit the patriarchal narrative of 'masculinity' that gets pushed onto young boys.

B) Implying women can't be role models to young boys only re-enforces gender biases.

Both young boys and young girls need good human role models in life. Plenty of us grew up with a single parent and often fared no more/less better off than those who grew up with both parents.

[-]

Gisschace@reddit

Yeah I honestly thought saying ‘hey if your friend thinks all women are toxic perhaps you should try meeting more women to learn they’re not’ wasn’t a controversial take.

I also got one person replying something like ‘ugh no you shouldn’t inflict this person on women!’

So what are we going to do? Just stay in our echo chambers and never dare interact with each other until deemed safe?

[-]

Regular_Committee946@reddit

Yeah it really shouldn't be a controversial take at all!

Unfortunately many will prefer to stay in those echo chambers than risk the possibility that they may have actually been wrong all along.

Quite similar to how cults keep people trapped; cut them off from friends/family to avoid a 'voice of reason' getting through. Add in sunk cost fallacy to the mix and it can be even harder to admit you have been wrong all along.

[-]

Oh wait, my bad I'm going to edit my above comment because I goofed.

[-]

AgentCirceLuna@reddit

Oh, did you mean the word ‘celibate’ itself?

[-]

Welshhoppo@reddit

A bit of both.

It's a term from the 90s. It was used to describe someone who struggled to maintain relationships due to issues with socialising. They could be shy, or struggle to meet people to engage in relationships with.

It was first used on a website to try and bring these people together so they could find like minded people and help they find people.

Basically the onus was on them, they were incels because they struggled to create those bonds with people.

Manosphere seems to be about grievance, power a f ideology

I just think it’s too much to say that lad culture ‘loved’ women as opposed to ‘ we just want to have fun!’

[-]

Long-Woodpecker-1980@reddit

I just think it’s too much to say that lad culture ‘loved’ women as opposed to ‘ we just want to have fun!’

Why? It's the truth. The 90s lads mags loved women. Tate and co hate women.

That Loaded and co were motivated by wanting to have sex with women doesn't mean you need to find ways to equate them.

Wanting to have sex with someone isn't a bad thing.

[-]

hadawayandshite@reddit

Some would argue loving someone would mean respecting them, valuing them, seeing them as equals etc…rather than just being by sexually aroused by them

Do you think ‘lad culture’ was big on respecting women?

[-]

Long-Woodpecker-1980@reddit

I said it was daft, but they didn't hate women the way Tate and co did. I explained that more than once.

Why are you trying to twist that into something else?

Or are you still pretending not to understand it?

[-]

hadawayandshite@reddit

I never suggested they hated women—I just disagree with your view that they ‘loved’ women

[-]

Long-Woodpecker-1980@reddit

I love galaxy chocolate bars.

Do you think that means I want to have sex with chocolate bars?

Or do we now have to explain to you that a word can have several meanings.

[-]

It was exploitative and women were sometimes seen as sex objects, but also as desirable for relationships and mates to have fun with. I hung out with a big mixed group, and some of the bawdy behaviours of the lads would not fly now, but we were all friends and they looked out for us and treated us as equals. The sexual innuendo was more of a laugh and not creepy

Now the manosphere seems to have a visceral hatred of women, they don't want to socialise with them or have relationships, only score sexual encounters. It's scary and toxic.

[-]

Gent415@reddit

Only exploitative if they didn't agree to it (which the publishers would have been sensible to check). And again, we're talking about "girlfriends" - implying consenting women in normal relationships. The manosphere has no interest in this kind of dynamic.

[-]

edent@reddit

It's a really shit and unfunny joke. It shouldn't have been published, and it does show that "banter culture" sometimes went (much) too far, but even with that, it's a huge difference to the incel world.

As someone who was a teenager back then, there was no hatred towards women within lad culture, which I think is the huge difference to today.

[-]

Heavy-Locksmith-3767@reddit

Quite obviously not meant to be taken literally.

[-]

continentaldreams@reddit

Mate we get it, you don't have to respond to every comment with this

[-]

The_Death_Flower@reddit

The super dangerous thing about the radicalisation in manosphere groups is also that women should live to serve men, and if they don’t they shouldn’t live at all. There are an increasing number of men pushing the idea that women should be harmed, even killed for rejecting them

[-]

kroblues@reddit

Yeah I think it’s sort of two extremes of the same spectrum. At one end is lad culture doing it because they, in the end, like women, but can’t express it properly. And for manosphere types they hate women and see them as inferior.

Both unacceptable, but at least one came from a positive place for the most part.

Your overblown sense of justice is exploitable though. That's the point.

It was wildly exxagerated far beyond it's initial scope to make it much more extreme. When people are pushed into views about extremes that itself causes division. You separate people into "people who agree with rape and people who don't" which is in itself what they want. They want everything to be black and white, binary, and extreme. That way they can tell either side they can never reconcile with the other.

The person was saying it was wildly inaccurate number, and you're portraying them as almost pandering to it being ok. That's exactly what it wanted by these clickbait nonsense titles. Distortion of reality. In either direction.

[-]

bex9990@reddit

Yes, I do separate people into 'people who agree with rape and people who don't'! I think most people do! It's not a man/ woman thing, it's a right/ wrong thing.

As I said in another reply, the numbers weren't the horrifying bit. The fact a rape academy exists at all is the horrifying bit. There is no number that would make it ok.

[-]

MaiLittlePwny@reddit

Yes, I do separate people into 'people who agree with rape and people who don't'! I think most people do! It's not a man/ woman thing, it's a right/ wrong thing.

That isn't relevant though. The person you're talking to was providing accurate information, and you still want to seperate into nonsense categories.

You're so desperate to tell people that YOU are on the RIGHT SIDE you don't bother to check if that's actually the conversation that's happening.

The whole point of extremist binaries is that both sides are radicalised and being actively pushed further apart, and used to further radicalise each other. That's the division. That's what TikTok and the misinformation is about.

It's incredibly useful to have something like the "rape academy" because you can have an article that lies and says 2000 people are actually 62 million active participants, and then people will seperate into extremes. Then they can say to these young boys "see? They are so desperate to lie about you that they will say 2000 is 62 million just to demonise you! They will never listen!! They don't want facts". It's useful to both sides.

But by all means, lose all the nuance, and have 0 interest in facts being accurate, because we must protect the valuable commodity that is people ability to clutch their pearls to signal how righteous they are.

[-]

Squire-1984@reddit

I've read all your posts in this part of the thread and I'd like to sincerely thank you for the patience and time you've taken to really really ckearly explain things.

I'd like to print it out and put it on my wall.

It never occurred to me that part of the ragebait is getting the 1s to make the thing binary and subsequently show how virtuos they are, further driving The 0s in the other direction by "proving" the original ragebaiter right.

Thankyou for your eloquent explanation of this.

It's a Shame, but not surprising, that the person responding to couldn't take a couple of minutes to actually take on board what you were saying.

All the best

[-]

MaiLittlePwny@reddit

Jameela al Jamil speaks on this topic quite well if you wanted to hear more.

Essentially the answer to getting men to stop committing violence is at least in part to dismantle the thing that alienates them.

This doesn't sit right with someone, because in general, but in the UK especially we have a weird relationship with blame and justice. Some people want vengeance and to denounce people much more than they want a viable solution if that solution includes any kind of compassion for the perpetrator.

No one is winning in this war. You think Manosphere Mikey when he was a little boy wanted to grow up to be a violent rapist?

It's the same people who don't care that the criminal law system is buckling under the strain of the fact that no part of the prison experience really caters towards rehab. It's falling apart at the seams, but again people want to see the "bad guys" suffer, never acknowledging the fact that taking satisfaction in that doesn't really make you a good guy either. It's modern day public executions as entertainment.

To be clear, I think rapists should be punished to the fullest extent of the law without hesitation where guilt is established. I just don't relish in it, and I think that I'd rather wish it was prevented than want to see them flogged. I also acknowledge that objectively speaking there just aren't many people who commited rape who were living happy, full, balanced lives and things were going well. There would always be some, but I do think that you can correlate rapes alongside disillusionment.

I don't need to pick a victor, I can be truly sorry that both a person was raped, and that someone's life went so badly they thought it was ok. I don't have a finite amount of sympathy.

[-]

bex9990@reddit

I have not seen an article that said 62m active participants, only commenters saying that, so I never thought it was 62m men, and I still thought it was horrifying. The numbers don't make it any more or less awful.

I don't know what you think the 'two sides' are here?

You don't think it's 'people who think rape is wrong vs people who think its ok', so who are the 'both sides' you're referencing?

What nuance is there in 'a rape academy exists'?

[-]

MaiLittlePwny@reddit

It's ok. You don't want to hear what I'm saying, and you're just responding to what you would prefer to talk about anyway.

If this was in person you'd be waiting to respond rather than listening.

The nuance is that social media and current main stream media is sensationalist, inflammatory, clickbaiting, and in it's worse forms radicalising and divisionary.

I simply think the epidemics of violence against women and the horrifying circles these men are lured into are too important a topic to fall into just being performatively righteous.

You don't want to talk about the division, you don't want to talk about the radicalisation and binaries people are being pushed into.

You keep repeating the same thing like anyone is disagreeing, because telling people how right you are is more important than a solution.

The nuance is that the information given was incorrect. Someone gave correct information.

Do you think it's not important to have accurate information in such an important topic? Do you think conveniently demonising lies and spreading misinformation is helpful?

I'm trying to point out that stories about the rape academy are just as horrifying, but you're too busy trying to have the convo you want to. The articles themselves are examples of divisive radicalising media. Don't you think it's equally horrifying that not only does a "rape academy" exist, but there is an entire nationwide social construct (the various versions of the media) that capitalise off it, and people making money of turning such a clear topic into "camps"?

Yet by all means, continue to furnish their desires by reducing it to a binary. You seem absolutely oblvious to what I'm actually saying.

BTW this might be helpful nuance for you. If you're able to hear it. I've been raped. Twice. So can we drop the pearl clutching? No one is disagreeing with you. No one is condoning rape. No one is supported rape academies. You're in an arguement with a figment of your imagination because you can't wait to tell people how virtous you are, and you're willing to go as far as to imply a rape survivor is doing so to have that conversation.

I am, for the last time, not talking about the morality of a rape academy existing. Nor was the person you replied to. I'm talking about how such things are actively used by media outlets and "manosphere" influencers to radicalise people and sow division. If you want to repond to that - do so.

[-]

bex9990@reddit

Again, none of the reports I saw were exaggerated or divisive in my opinion. They said 62m hits on the site, with several thousand on the rape academy section. So as far as msm goes, no, I don't think their reporting is just as horrifying as a rape academy existing.

If you have msm saying '62m men went to the rape academy site', then fair enough, I'll take that on board.

Some commenters exaggerated - you say to sow division and radicalisation, and perhaps you're right. I would like to know what the 'two sides' you referenced are; who do you think they are trying to divide? They are clearly not divided into the same two groups I imagined.

[-]

MaiLittlePwny@reddit

Who is setting up the academies? Did they just plop into existence?

Are you unaware of the "manosphere" THIS THREAD IS ABOUT ?

[-]

bex9990@reddit

So, for clarity, you think the msm deliberately fudged the figures to divide the 'manosphere' from, who? The rest of the world?

[-]

MaiLittlePwny@reddit

You're declaring that there's simeltaneously only binaries, but no binaries.

[-]

bex9990@reddit

Do you know the answer to the question 'who are the two sides?' or no?

What did I say was not binary in this case?

[-]

MaiLittlePwny@reddit

Who do you think set them up?

Who do you think exagerated the numbers?

Who do you think wrote the articles?

Who do you think this thread is about?

Who do you think is in the "manosphere" ?

You realise the people that profit and sow the division and radicalisation, aren't neccesarily bothered about the actual aims of the binaries yeh? Like you can profit off news articles sensationalising these stories, without condoning the existence of them?

You're far too busy telling people how disgusted you are with rape to have any other conversation.

Are you finding out today about the media radicalising people?

Rape academies exist in some form --> 2. They are found out about in the media --> 3. They are reported about in various ways. --> 4. Some of those ways are to massively exxagerate the context, numbers, and facts to rage bait people. --> 5. People are enraged and take on extreme views. -->6. Anyone who doesn't agree with these extreme rage baited views is labeled 0 or 1.

Guess what. No one here is talking about item 1.

You're here declaring anyone who doesn't react the way you do as "on the other side". Everyone "reasonable" is on your side.

Lo and behold. You're in a binary.

The other binary doesn't even need to be real. You've been radicalised by something you imagined.

In this case sadly it does exist, there are men out there that condone this nonsense, and both sides are used to further radicalise each other.

Your righteousness and overblown sense of displaying what you feel is justice has been weaponised to push young men further into their radical camp.

Because again - here you are. Reacting to accurate information, and being told about division, too busy declaring that only you see things clearly, to realise, that the fact division exists is equally as horrifying as the topic. There is an entire industry out there waiting to do this to anyone, about any topic, and they aren't that fussed about what.

The two sides are whatever you choose to call the "manosphere" and people who are dying to scream about their revulsion.

But the most important thing in this topic about an epidemic of men being lured into violence, and women affected by this violence is of course that you tell people you're on the correct side.

By no means have a nuanced convo about this. Continue to be black and white, and be confused about binaries.

[-]

bex9990@reddit

Ok, I'm going to bring this conversation to a close. I think you have maligned me several times and I am making less sense of whatever your point is.

I hope you get whatever it is you want. Have a good evening.

[-]

MaiLittlePwny@reddit

You were never interested in having any other conversation than the one you wanted so let's not pretend.

You immediately dip when you get your answer, even though it's in the original comment I sent to you.

Your intent was never geniune conversation. If you find your position no longer defensible that's up to you. I've explained my point multiple times. You don't want to engage with any point but your own. That much is clear.

No one was ever keeping you here.

[-]

Vasher1@reddit

Often times between the genders. The intent of stories like "tens of millions view online rape academy" is often to make people think there's a huge percentage of people on "the other side" that believe something heinous, which is usually an exaggeration

[-]

bex9990@reddit

Exaggerated it may be, but the fact it exists at all is horrifying, not the numbers.

At the end of the day, some men visited it, and we don't know which ones. I can't think of a number that I would make me think it was less awful.

[-]

R1ch0C@reddit

It is of course horrifying but this thread does kind of show that it works to overblow it. Idk the reason, engagement bait, creating division, whatever it is, it clearly gets the conversation going and gets people riled up. It definitely is an important distinction that it's not 62 million twisted men Vs a much smaller number, Same as if it was terrorism or something else

[-]

bex9990@reddit

[-]

LeTreacs2@reddit

God, I hope that number is inflated to try and drive sales of the course and actually only 3 or so people actually paid for that.

[-]

Jip_Jaap_Stam@reddit

It is inflated, 31k times.

It's also just a porn site, maybe a bit more leaning towards harder BDSM stuff but also contains plenty of normal stuff you'd find on the other big ones.

The person who broke the story for some reason decided to say 60m were visiting the rape academy instead of the site.

That's like saying there's a rape academy with 3bn monthly visitors if a group was created on FB (and there's no doubt tons of groups for fucked up shit)

[-]

2Fast2Mildly_Peeved@reddit

[ Removed by Reddit ]

[-]

Beautiful_Hour_4744@reddit

The headlines a bit misleading. Theres a porn site just like Porn Hub except there are some videos on there of men raping their unconscious partners who've been drugged. The site itself had 60 million hits, thats not even 60 million users necessarily and certainly not that many accessing that specific content or private chat groups about such things

[-]

"Any man who must say 'I am the King!'..."

[-]

Polish_Shamrock@reddit

....is an absolute knob head and the easiest punchline for too many effortlessly told jokes, until they get angry, start with the wrong person, fuck around, find out, pretend it never happened.

[-]

It's a total grift, male incels paying to degrade trafficked girls. And Russian bot farms spewing nonsense to spread the word.

[-]

linerva@reddit

Yes this.

As a feminist who grew up in the 90s and early 2000s...

Yes, lad culture objectified women abd was awful in many ways, but the focus was still on consensual sexual fun that wonen were expected to be active participants in.

There was slut shaming (this has never gone away) but it was also expected for women to date and not be virgins. It was nornal for women to have jobs, be working mums, use contraception or get abortions. It was a bad time for body image avd the media were demonising having even a scrap of fat.

It's hard to explain.

Whereas the manosphere and incels inherently hate all women. They encourage revulsion and even violence against women. They spread misinformation about how if women aren't virgins then they can't bond with men and store sperm inside them. They spread paranoia about paternity tests.

Things have actually gotten worse- the internet is full of fake tradwife propaganda. Anti choicers spreading lies about contraception and abortions. Gruifters doubting basic science.

[-]

Dd_8630@reddit

Exactly. When Barbara Windsor whipped her boobs out, everyone was having a fun time. It was slap and tickle, everyone enjoyed the eyebrow waggling adult friendship.

Which shouldn't be the expectation, of course; people can have boundaries and not want to be part of that. But I think having adult humour isn't in and of itself bad.

But all of that is so separate to the manosphere hatred.

[-]

AbsurdSlate@reddit

"subhuman objects" doesn't quite vibe with the level of hatred I'm seeing, they do seem to see me as a human, a woman, a full person with hopes dreams, everything complex that exists within themselves, and they think I and every other woman doesn't want anything to do with them unless they're rich and beefed up to the gills on steroids, so they're pre-mad about it, tate-shit misinformation has convinced them they're all completely unfuckable losers and I know I'll sound a little crazy for this but it's worse than us being objectified, I'm/we're not on a pedestal anymore, not an object of desire, not a prize or a game to be played/won, but an enemy, instead of them wanting to shag me I get the sense they'd rather kill me, pre-emptively they want to reject me before I have a chance to reject them.

Society is in real trouble I fear.

[-]

IamRick_Deckard@reddit

less awareness to toxic behaviours.

Lol, your image of the past is distorted. People were not scared does without awareness and inability to speak up. I think you should listen to some 70s punk or something for a start. Maybe try this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogypBUCb7DA

[-]

nihilistkitty@reddit

As a 41 year old woman that has had contact with men I agree. I recall when I was young if a man was being a bit creepy his mates would sort him out. If im walking my dogs and there is a creepy guy hanging around I feel safer when there are non creepy men in the area. I dont know if they would bother to help these days but its still a comfort.

I don't think women treat men particularly nice theses days either. That whole I chose the bear thing being an example.

I watched the manosphere documentary and it did make me angry but not just at men.

I think the world is a bit fucked atm if im honest

[-]

ButtweyBiscuitBass@reddit

I'm not sure now the choosing a bear thing equates to women treating men badly. Saying you don't want to be left on your own with a random man doesn't give any indication of how you treat the specific men in your life.

[-]

nihilistkitty@reddit

It certainly doesn't equate to them treating men well. I've been sexually assaulted a fair amount of times with varying severity by men and women. Ive never once thought oh I really wish I was in this isolated place with an animal that can maul me to death when there is noone around to help.

Its a sweeping generalisation that puts down an entire gender.

Another thing to push us apart.

The 'manosphere" is awful but this type of shit only adds fuel to the fire.

If I survive, I'm left physically scarred but you can learn to adapt to any disability.

I might survive, but I might be left with lifelong trauma.

Is bear attack trauma just assumed to be less bad than rape trauma?

[-]

AutomaticInitiative@reddit

One is inflicted by a gender you see every day, the other, well bears are pretty easy to avoid in every day life.

[-]

Unhappy_Spell_9907@reddit

You leave bear alone, bear leaves you alone. Men can become enraged if you ignore them and attack you as a result.

[-]

Unhappy_Spell_9907@reddit

Attacks by wild animals don't tend to be personally motivated. I have been kicked by a horse and broken my leg as a result. I would go through that a hundred times or more before I endured another rape. It's not an assumption. It's the voice of experience.

[-]

nihilistkitty@reddit

Yes, that would be the logical way of thinking about it but it is not always interpreted that way.

Infact its usually interpreted as an insult. Especially to these lads that follow the manosphere. Just reinforces that hatred.

Its a sentiment that gained a lot of attention due to the conflict it caused and I see it as a major contributor to the divide between us.

[-]

ButtweyBiscuitBass@reddit

But that some men interpreted it as an insult has nothing to do with how women behave towards the men in their lives

[-]

The_WiseMonk@reddit

How do you think a 12 year old boy who has done nothing wrong would inteperate his mother and sisters saying that they'd rather be torn to shreds by an animal than chance an encounter with them because of their sex? Would they be wrong as well for walking away from it feeling jaded and confused instead of agreeing with you?

I grew up with the women in my life raising me constantly saying stuff like this to me when I was growing up, and it did far more damage to my perception of women to me than masculine pushing media ever did. It does have quite a lot to do with how women behave towards the men in their lives in fact.

[-]

nihilistkitty@reddit

I have been speaking about the rift between men and woman caused largely by social media. Not how people treat other people in their actual lives. One of the biggest manosphere influencers is lovely to his mother. I doubt all them believe the shit they spout but they spout it because it makes them money. Its the bigger picture I'm speaking about.

If want you chose the bear thats fine. I just tend not to generalise an entire gender based on the actions of a few and shout about it. It has also been used as a way to spred hate.

Username checks out.

[-]

Pretty much my thoughts exactly. 44m from the UK.

[-]

Sandy_Bananas@reddit

Well said.

I’m a year or so older - and I’ve watched this shit unfold. We are in new, horrible territory.

[-]

CineBram@reddit

You've got nothing to worry about, son. I'd suggest going out on a rampage with the boys, getting on the booze and smashing anything that moves. Then, when some bird falls for you, you can turn the tables and break her heart. Of course, the other option is to cut your ex's face, and then no one will want her.

Yep I'd agree. One of the most embarrassing moments of my life was when I catcalled some lady across the floor of a spoons. Her mate came over and told me where to stick it. Fucking good on him. I was bang out of order and cringe about it often. My dad was great, but never had direct convos with him about respecting women, I wish he did as I probably wouldnt have made such a tit of myself. I intend on having those conversations with my boys when they're old enough. Fuck man, over 20 years ago and the self cringe is still so strong when I think about it. Poor woman, my only hope is she doesn't think about it at all. I've grown up now and, thankfully, grown as a person (at least a bit) too.

[-]

HansJordi@reddit

Mate, stop torturing yourself. She’s forgotten about it within two minutes, I’m sure! It probably wasn’t even her worst interaction that night.

[-]

-adult-swim-@reddit

Nah, like I said in another post, its a reminder that I need to teach my kids about respect when it comes to it. I'll take my cringe moments if it means my kids are better people for it. We all do stupid shit at any age, its good to reflect, learn, and teach. Like I said, its my hope that she doesn't remember it at all, and like you said, it might not have been the worst thing to have happened to her that night, it doesn't excuse it. It doesn't cripple me, ive found a wife, I've got kids, but man alive when I think about it I just think "what the fuck man, ya pleb", you know? Thanks though.

[-]

Gnordic_Gnome@reddit

While it’s good that you regret doing this, I think you’re giving yourself too much of a hard time all these years later. This was so normal sadly that this individual incident would not have been memorable. I would be astounded if she remembered you specifically doing this and thought about it all these years later.

The whole point is we were constantly getting catcalled. Adult men were shouting at us to get our tits out while we walked past in our school uniforms. In clubs we would have people pinch our slap our arses multiple times a night.

Find polite nice lads who are respectful and have a friendly sense of humour and aren't pushy, and approach them. They'll be super receptive to it and still on eggshells a bit about the above. You'll have a much better time, trust me.

[-]

ceylon-tea@reddit

This is a whole lot of assumption making and victim blaming. I’ve approached plenty of men on the apps who’ve turned out to be redpilled misogynists. And I’ve been approached by men who are lovely people with whom it ultimately didn’t work out. There’s no correlation.

[-]

NibblyPig@reddit

I'm sorry, that wasn't my intention to cast any double. I'm not sure why you think it's victim blaming, because it's NOT the victims fault that these men are bad. I'm just saying you'll have more success in avoiding them if you approach first.

I'm sorry it didn't work out in your case. But in my observation, it's exactly what happens. I helped a few women in this situation, sat down and messaged guys with them. One of them got messaged by a guy first, and I warned her, she did not take my advice and the guy was as expected. Not to worry though, I found her a couple of good blokes and now she's married to one :-)

So perhaps enlist a friend, we can sense which guys are trouble pretty well I think.

[-]

SnooHabits8484@reddit

It’s all fed off social media. Chronologically, first there was the era where (often ironic to begin with) misandry online was edgy, cool and popular. Then it stopped being ironic, kids grew up in online atmospheres where maleness was stigmatised, and right-wing grifters like Peterson who’d previously concentrated on transphobia suddenly had an audience who felt like pariahs despite not having personally done anything wrong. That’s a recipe for radicalisation.

Yes, they are.

[-]

GrabbedByTheGhost@reddit

No.

Love the media narrative though.

[-]

AromaticVacation3077@reddit

The really interesting question is why people are so eager to believe it.

[-]

GrabbedByTheGhost@reddit

They're told it is true even though the data suggests otherwise

[-]

throwpayrollaway@reddit

I was around then and yes id definitely say it's more toxic now because of the hate involved.

[-]

CineBram@reddit

Yeah there was no hate back then

[-]

tenacious_teaThe3rd@reddit

You keep bringing this up. But one incident from a wannabe hard man like Danny Dyer, doesnt suddenly invalidate the argument.

Stop being weird.

[-]

MayorOfSpiderTown@reddit

That wasn’t actually Danny Dyer btw, the bit was a joke run by the mag because he was considered a caricature of lad culture.

[-]

evenstevens280@reddit

Plus the sheer reach and ubiquity of the internet means its massively pervasive, which makes a critical mass easier to get and maintain

[-]

throwpayrollaway@reddit

I think the lad culture thing was negative, it objectified pretty women but was largely unconcerned with anything or anyone else. Back then you had to have the balls to talk to women in person and your failure to get anywhere with them was very much a you problem. Now there's like this massive amount of men and boys who have a get out clause by blaming their own predicament on women in general.

[-]

Agreed about lad culture. i was 18 in 1990...and having been brought up by liberal parents with a feminist nurse for a mother I entered that decade more of what was known as a 'new man' than a lad. Then thjngs changed..that entire culture revolved around no longer being ashamed to be into football or 'enjoying the female form'...it WAS immature and men if were honest remain the same when amongst close friends. A lot of it was about honesty really...being who you were. There was certainly no hate.quite the opposite. Take all the alcohol, drugs, football and rock n roll out of the equation and all we wanted was to cop off with someone at the end of the night.

As for so called 'incels' today...I dont think they really want you dead...they just have no leaders relevant to their lived experiences.

Obviously, social media itself is the devil incarnate but kids today dont really go out like we did. So their opportunities to have the learning experiences we dud are hugely curtailed. .

[-]

Crafty_Parfait_6508@reddit

And lads mags are nothing compared to the gruesome pornography of today!

[-]

That stood out because of how violent and mean spirited it was.

[-]

noobtidder@reddit

Yeah, the first few years of Loaded were smart-dumb, where you were as likely to find a really good interview with a respectable writer or artist as much as you were boobs.

Clearly both eras are bad, but I find it difficult to read people defending the 90s as if it was just banter and a good bit of harmless fun. It absolutely was not.

It was wide scale unfiltered hatred of women dressed up as lad culture. I was fully in the ‘ladette’ culture and had a great time, I didn’t think of complaining about it, because we were sold that we should love it - and there was no outlet to complain anyway.

outright misogyny was rampant in the workplace and we were told to be flattered by un-relenting sexual misconduct in the office. When I told my HR dept someone was behaving this way I was told it was because I was ‘so lovely’. Women don’t face that now - not without consequence. That is the difference.

Young women I work with would not survive in the 90s culture and I’m extremely glad they don’t have to.

blazeofg@reddit

Not defening them but Incel-related violence has been linked to over 50 to 60 deaths worldwide in recent years. It's fairly low.

[-]

ProfessorCymru@reddit

I think so, it feels more targeted and radicalising then ald cukture which was just how some poeple behaved.

I think the biggest element of it is the visibillity and accessibility of the manosphere content. Lad culture felt like it was just the knobheads you saw on Geordie Shore and nights out. The manosphere content is designed as such, content, is is pushed heavy towards people who can easily access it. I feel like this is especially true after coivd where a lot of younger teenagers were stuck inside and had more opportunity to see the full spectrum of it.

ChouffeMeUp@reddit

100 fucking percent. Much nastier.

[-]

Forward_District_9@reddit

Eh.. no. It's not lad behaviour or manosphere it's misogyny through out the years. Ask any woman you know I bet you 100% she's been sexually harassed at some point. The only thing that's different is people are becoming more aware of how unacceptable the "lad mentality" is.

Coming from a woman who is 33 and had loads of sexual harassment and unwanted attention.

[-]

kb-g@reddit

Yes. Lad culture was immature and objectified women, but there was no vitriol behind it. Lads wanted to shag. The manosphere BS promotes hatred and that’s a very different thing.

[-]

No-Particular-2894@reddit

Yes. The manosphere hate women and in reality hate themselves.

Lad culture stuff was just immature, but if some lad said some of of incel red pill stuff everyone would think they were a fucking weirdo and they'd probably be treated as a bit of an outsider.

[-]

lovesorangesoda636@reddit

I'd say they are categorically worse.

Lad culture was sexist, but it wasn't hateful. You'd get catcalled, rated on a scale of 1-10, called a "butterface" (but her face), "on a scale of two, I'd give her one wink", but there wasn't the undercurrent of feeling like if you didn't laugh or go along with it that you'd be raped or murdered.

Hateful men have always existed of course, but now we genuinely do have to consider the fact that the guy following you down the street outside the pub will hurt you, rather than say something lewd.

[-]

nesh34@reddit

Lads culture in general is considerably less toxic than the uglier side of the manosphere (although I would put folks like Joe Rogan on a par with lads culture).

But in our day we had the fringe stuff too. Pickup Artistry, the Game, all that shit. It had the same sinister and predatory aspects it was just more of a niche.

[-]

Urist_Macnme@reddit

You forget that right alongside the “lad culture” was the “laddette culture” and Girl Power.

[-]

Possiblyreef@reddit

Young people now have basically no accountability for practically anything.

You're now allowed to do weaponised stupidity and if anyone calls you out you just say they're affecting your mental health like it's a magical get out of jail free card

[-]

ResponsibilityNo3245@reddit

Young people now have basically no accountability for practically anything.

Every generation of old bastards has found a reason to say that about the youth of the day.

[-]

Welshhobbit1@reddit

Former Ladette here. Or maybe I’m still a Ladette! (Anybody remember that show Ladette to lady? I had visions of my parents signing me up to it at one point in my life)

No toxicity towards me during those years. No peer pressure, no hatred towards me as a woman, I had no fear telling a man talking shit to stfu(which I would be nervous of these days), i wasn’t “pushed aside” when talking things like gaming or rugby or football or told to go back in the kitchen. I didn’t feel scared, I was an equal to the lads. Madly It made me confident in who I am now.

[-]

Gent415@reddit

I mean honestly ladette culture was clearly invented by men to encourage women to be more promiscuous. But there were as many women bouncing around in the clubs to Oasis and Blur, and they were mostly treated as equals (albeit in a sexual way). There's no respect for women in the manosphere.

[-]

SnooHabits8484@reddit

I think the manosphere has grown at the same time that American sex-negativity has spread here. I’m not saying it was sweetness and light here in the 90s but the wholesale import of American social mores (through social media) is the reason we have so much toxic shit on multiple fronts. Everything after Bebo was a terrible mistake.

[-]

Gisschace@reddit

No one is saying it wasn’t toxic however the difference I feel (as a teenage girl back then) was it was (at least dressed up as) progressive…girls like drinking and football too, girls like sex etc etc. it felt like the future was going to more liberal.

One of the huge differences is timeline.

As teenagers/young men in the 90s, we knew the struggles women were going through to have equal rights. You could see things evolving in real time and while there were of course some moronic mysoginists thinking it was the end of the world, they were very much a fringe minority (and were, to a degree, balanced by the minority of extreme feminists).

The problem these days, very well put by a teacher friend of mine, is that the young men of today don;t understand *why* women are getting treated "better than them". They don't know the history of mysogyiny and gender abuse we grew up with.

This sounds crazy at first reading I know, but when you remember nobody automatically knows anything. Yeah, we know why it's good to have safe spaces for women and girls, the kids today don't know because they haven't seen it and haven't been taught. Then of course couple that with the stupidity and evil of social media and it's a perfect storm.

So yes - it is MUCH worse than Lad culture, which in my experince was something that applied to both genders anyway!

[-]

IloveLemonsomuch69@reddit

They see double standards and sexist towards men and call it out

[-]

RealisticTeaching557@reddit

That’s a really good point, thanks

[-]

devlin1888@reddit

The major difference is how it can be weaponised and organised with social media and overtaking various algorithms, making people go through a rabbit hole.

It is far more pervasive and easier to get surrounded in just an echo chamber and for it to take over a personality, extremely insidiously.

Lads want manic pixie dream girls to shag and drink with. Manosphere adherents want Stepford wives.

Lads don't want to inherently control women. When I was a teenager I dated a guy who held views that would now be seen as part of the manosphere; that was an abusive relationship. By the end of it I shouldn't leave the house without a chaperone, in his opinion, in case other man approached me. I couldn't hold prolonged eye contact with other men. I shouldn't prioritise my education because I should believe in him to provide.

[-]

humunculus43@reddit

The manosphere just allows pathetic bullies who used to be losers at 18 to become losers at 30

[-]

SignificantCricket@reddit

Some of the attitudes to women are the total opposite.

I got the message from 90s lad mags, plus advice columns by men in mags for young women, that men liked girls who were upfront and experienced and knew what they were doing, and that teaching a virgin for example would be a drag.

One of the most embarrassing things anybody could be in the relationship context then was clingy. A fault the media attended to see women rather than men, though men would've been embarrassed about it too. Not that you were often heard it from them. They always wanted more space.

The 90s ladette wore short skirts and drank pints and enjoyed clubbing, had a dirty sense of humour, and would hang out with men and women. These sad controlling young men these days hate all of that, and you can see relationship threads on Reddit full of men saying girlfriends should be dumped for what was desirable fun behaviour among young men I knew in the mid to late 90s.

Porn stars were celebrated and openly desired rather than talked of as dirty in a bad way, like say Bonnie Blue is. For one of the most easily accessible examples nowadays, but more crass than you would find in Loaded, look at The Ballad of Chasey Lane by the Bloodhound Gang. The narrator is introducing her to his parents

[-]

SnooHabits8484@reddit

Yeah I reckon it’s the importation of American sexual conservatism on social media that’s caused a fair chunk of the problem.

No probably not but the difference is we've had 30 years of social progress which the manosphere fellas are willfully ignoring.

[-]

Regular_Committee946@reddit

I'd say they are actively destroying progress rather than wilfully ignoring.

Historically, there has always been a push from men/patriarchy to maintain power whenever there has been a small gain in women's rights or a social movement that expands empathy towards women's opression.

It is telling that the current issue of 'manosphere' and incel-ism cropped up following #MeToo.

[-]

M_M_X_X_V@reddit (OP)

The manosphere are ignoring 100+ years of progress

[-]

Tall_Opportunity_521@reddit

It not even the same thing. One was about having a laugh, and embracing the nightmare of hormones. And the other is a grift, sold to abused young men and boys who feel like society doesnt want them or even like them.

Regular_Committee946@reddit

Agreed.

[-]

karlmillsom@reddit

Potentially Lad Culture could have been as bad, if there was the internet to broadcast it to every young boy at all hours of the day.

But even then, as I recall it, no. It was inappropriate, but it was closer to cheeky than genuinely hateful. Still built on a misogynistic world view, perhaps, but not aggressively so.

[-]

Spaffin@reddit

The FHM / Loaded era was embarrassing in hindsight, but that culture wasn’t teaching young men to hate women and see them as a lower class of person. Yes they were absolutely objectified and in many cases this had a demeaning effect, but I don’t think that culture instilled a sense of ill-will in the way that the manosphere does.

[-]

Carra144@reddit

Yes.

Manosphere stuff is lads' mag mag dialed up to 11.

Lad culture was sexist and juvenile, but I never felt (in my teens at the time) that it was hateful towards women or others. Whereas a lot of manosphere stuff is hateful, hating feminists, hating women who want their own lives/interests, hating LGBTQ, hating liberalism, etc.

Manosphere stuff is more located between Lads' mag stuff and even more 4Chan/ERW content.

[-]

Prior_Elephant_5187@reddit

We loved women in lad culture. Now, they hate them and see them as a source of their problems.

'it works both ways'

Oh yeah? and how has that made the world more unsafe for men than before?

[-]

massiveheadsmalltabs@reddit

It happens both ways but one if far bigger than the other.

[-]

PoolRamen@reddit

You are absolutely correct.

[-]

continentaldreams@reddit

Pray tell?

[-]

CineBram@reddit

Well during lad culture you could get a nationally beloved actor to recommend cutting your ex's face so I don't how isolated that would make you feel.

[-]

Educational_Cow111@reddit

Nationally beloved? Don’t make me laugh 😂

[-]

apple_kicks@reddit

It went into turning the odd off inner thought that they wouldn’t share. into a philosophy and manifesto that you can become a cult leader with

[-]

ThinWhiteDuke00@reddit

The world was not safer for women 30 years ago.

[-]

continentaldreams@reddit

'looks unsafe' - I feel like there's more bad blood between young men and women now than there was back when I was a kid. Perhaps that's rosy nostalgia!

The way I see it is; recent study said that only 11% of young women view men positively, while 72% of young men hold a positive view of women, that is 6.5 times larger than women's positive view.

Gender based hostility and contempt for the other gender exists in their own spheres - men's behaviour is more overt and viable attention grabbing, women's on the other hand is more covert and disguised and it's dressed up in language based on either fear/guilt/obligation/ societal expectations, it's perhaps why so little attention is given to it because it doesn't register.

Each gender in these extreme scenarios are driven towards obtaining specific things

For misogynistic men - (1) access to women, (2) sex, (3) company.

For misandryst women - (1) access to a man, (2) access to resources financial or/and what the individual can do for them, (3) attention as and when desired.

In short I am not convinced that the extreme behaviours of each gender are much different.

I think groups that advance the rights of their gender exclusively are shortsighted.

You cannot expand the rights of one group above the other without dynamically intervening in the other group. Because intervening in one group causes imbalances that emerge that can't be responded to in time to correct. So it's better off dedicating resources to both groups and intervening in targeted ways.

[-]

Andries89@reddit

One stems from lust and a drive for the sex, which the lasses at the time reciprocated. Now it's about hate and villainisation because the lasses are no longer interested in entertaining misogyny and the men are frustrated

[-]

Fine_Analyst_4408@reddit

I wasn't scared to take on a dude spouting sexist shit back then. Nowadays I feel like I would be in genuine danger.

[-]

Conscious-Ball8373@reddit

I think you need to be careful how you read the "manosphere" though.

personally speaking, i'd much rather have to deal with someone yelling "get your tits out" than someone who genuinely does not even consider me a real human being

[-]

Agitated_Ad_361@reddit

Yes. They are closet homosexuals who are angry at themselves and using that energy to flog cypto pyramid schemes to vulnerable, poor young men under the guise of bettering themselves. I feel desperately sorry for young men and women now.

[-]

HughWattmate9001@reddit

Depends, IRL they have no social skills so don't other you like the "lads" of the old days. So basically avoid going online or speaking with them and they are a none issue. The "lads" back in the day you could not avoid.

[-]

Super-Nuntendo@reddit

Manosphere of today is an over-correction to the last decade or two of 'wokeism' imho. The whole woke thing and D,E & I being an over correction itself.

Lad culture wasn't really a culture, at most it was an attitude or an aesthetic.

Manosphere shit absolutely is a culture, a way of thinking about the world and life.

[-]

nbenj1990@reddit

Yes.

One objectified women but also very much celebrated them in an admittedly exceptionally shallow way.The other preaches hatred of women. One was also quite progressive in that it was supportive of women as more than mothers and wives whereas the manosphere extols the virtues of "tradwives" and women in the kitchen etc.

Neither are great and both are misogynistic but from different ways. I think that the idea of women to be something you hate or are superior than wasn't there alongside the negatives associated with lad culture.

[-]

newtoallofthis2@reddit

One of the interesting stuff in the Theroux documentary was with the HS TikTocky fella.

He has an absent father, mother he places on a weird pedestal and is a blatant misogynist talking about women in degrading terms.

He then started poking at Theroux about Saville.

A media star from another age, who was also the subject of a Theroux documentary had an absent father, mother he places on a weird pedestal (the Duchess) and is a blatant misogynist talking about women in degrading terms.

[-]

doggytim@reddit

I am a genZ woman so I will say I don’t have the full knowledge of lad culture but seeing older men around me, I don’t think things were better back then. Misogynistic men at least get called out nowadays. There is easy internet access such that women have more awareness and are able to spot harmful behaviours quicker. Previously, it was acceptable to say sexist things in the workplace with no consequences. Marital rape itself became illegal only in 1991.

Having said that, the manosphere has the potential to utterly brainwash so many men at once, this again due to easy access to the internet.

I wouldn’t want to be a woman in the last century though. I can’t imagine that life with less exposure to the world with no internet and less awareness to toxic behaviours.

[-]

irishstreams@reddit

Lad Culture: Gary and Tony. A pair of socially inept idiots, but not irredeemable. Tony was creepy towards Deborah, maybe you could even classify him as a stalker. But he wouldn’t have harmed her at all — in fact, he would have taken a bullet for her.

Manosphere: Tate et al.

Much worse now, I’d say, but I’m a 46 year old bloke so obviously, I can’t speak for women. They have to deal with this shite every day, and it must be bloody terrifying.

[-]

ActionBirbie@reddit

It's a reasonable question, but I think one of the differences is that they can reach a much wider audience and a much younger (and easily influenced) audience.

[-]

Deep_Banana_6521@reddit

Yes.

They're far more controlling and surveillant than they used to be. The manosphere is utterly reliant on it's own chat community or snapchat/whatever else communities where they get instant gratification on their actions and reactions.

Lad culture from back in the day was just jokes, it was like 1/100th of what today is.

[-]

WolfColaCo2020@reddit

Yes. Whilst the lads culture and lads mags were objectifying of women, they didn’t have the absolute hatred that comes from the Manosphere.

To put too fine a point on it, nobody (to my knowledge) has been motivated to commit acts of (mass) murder in the name of an issue of Nuts.

[-]

Fantastic_Picture384@reddit

More extreme feminist outrage and the people who feed off this rage.

[-]

hadawayandshite@reddit

Both were misogynistic

But ‘lad culture’ was built in a kind of hedonism ‘shag women, drink loads, make crass jokes’ because it’s fun

Manosphere seems to be about grievance, power a f ideology

[-]

AromaticVacation3077@reddit

The difference is not in these specific phenomena, but in the cultural context of each period. 30 years ago men and masculinity weren't viewed as inherently suspicious. That kind of blatant sexism hadn't taken hold in the way it has now.

[-]

ResplendentBear@reddit

Lad culture - Show us your tits and drink lager!

Manopshere culture - Women are inferior, fit only to be our sex slaves and domestic servants.

One isn't great, one is actually evil.

[-]

CineBram@reddit

I don't think HSTikkyTokky ever openly called for slicing a woman's face in a nationally released magazine.

[-]

blue_rizla@reddit

I would say definitely yes, because there’s more hatred in it.

[-]

Capital-Squirrel3522@reddit

90s we had lads mags. These days 24/7 unfettered access to extreme hardcore porn and god knows what. Definitely a different world.

[-]

Bjork_scratchings@reddit

The internet has completely changed everything.

[-]

banana_assassin@reddit

Yes. If you want a dive into this then I recommend Men Who Hate Women' by Laura Bates, specifically about men within the manosphere.

She found posts by, had discussions with and interviewed some of the men.

She also looks at how damaging it is to men, as well as women, and does bring up some good points about lack of social spaces and an inability to let men be genuinely vulnerable, etc.

Worth a read to get some insight into that world.

She doesn't mask language, as a bit of a trigger warning. I listened to it as an audiobook and it was really informative and interesting, but also made me worried for men and boys.

[-]

Monkeyboogaloo@reddit

The 90s lad culture, Loaded etc didnt hate women, it celebrated them - not in a way we’d find acceptable now. But it didnt blame women for anything.

[-]

GrownDandilion@reddit

Nope just thicker

[-]

dbxp@reddit

Personally I think the manosphere is more open so that it can be criticised whilst lad culture created more issues for the average person. One of the big issues with lad culture is that it was seen as normal so happened very much under the radar.

[-]

Debouched@reddit

You mean the 1920s?

https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/20512

Man and Maid by Elinor Glyn was turned into a MGM movie. The protagonist ticks off every box for current manosphere incel culture: use of prostitutes and disgust by prostitution, putting a woman who shows no interest on a pedestal, being pissed she doesn't immediately provide sex, looksmaxxing tied to self-worth, negging as a relationship strategy, etc. etc.

[-]

cwright017@reddit

Lad culture existed as a way for guys with a ‘rowdy’ personality to gel. Sexist through today’s lens, but basically just a social bonding thing.

The main difference is reach and the amount of damage these clowns can cause today.

Through social media they can corrupt the minds of much younger boys at an insane scale and speed. They can also push their grift, usually some type of bullshit "courses" or "university" where they scam the fuck out of their easily brainwashed audience.

It is SO much worse than it was 20-30 years ago.

[-]

Nerissa23@reddit

What an intelligent conversation!

[-]

dvb70@reddit

I doubt it's hugely different. The real difference is 20/20 years ago arseholes only really impacted people in their orbit but now they can make a living being a profesional arsehole with audiences of thousands. They can spread their arsehole behaviour to impressionable minds who are casting around looking for something to follow and believe in.

[-]

Apart-Purchase9580@reddit

In general people are now more happy to describe the social dynamics at play for what they are - using words like misogynistic - and their understanding of the gender politics associated with it is much more sophisticated and analytical now than it was back then. There is probably a lot of crossover; back then some of the men being "lads" were likely to have genuinely hated women, and a lot of the men in the manosphere today are probably just doing the modern version of "lad" behaviour that they will grow out of.

These days there is less expectation for women to just put up with this kind of behaviour as being natural and inevitable, and it has become more unacceptable in more parts of society. Today's young men might be just as toxic, and not more so, than the "lads" back then, but more parts of the public are now more likely to see that behaviour as pathological/sinister, and the voices seeing it as normal and pushing women to accept it are fewer and quieter.

[-]

peterchekhov@reddit

As a teenager in the 90s, there was a lot of laddish vibe going on.

But it was more like "phwoooar! Booooobs!" Sort of vibe

AutoModerator@reddit

Please help keep AskUK welcoming!

When replying to submission/post please make genuine efforts to answer the question given. Please no jokes, judgements, etc. If a post is marked 'Serious Answers Only' you may receive a ban for violating this rule.
Don't be a dick to each other. If getting heated, just block and move on.
This is a strictly no-politics subreddit!

Please help us by reporting comments that break these rules.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.