Renee's vs the writers' interpretation of Gabrielle
Posted by ObnoxiousConsistent@reddit | xena | View on Reddit | 44 comments
On this rewatch, I've been reading a lot of interview snippets as I move along (thanks to Jacksonupperco's great compilations!) and I've noticed this recurring thing, where the writer's vision of Gabrielle as a character seems to often clash with Renee's
e.g. this bit about the Ides of March:
!Renee: "I understood where the motivation came from, but I was frustrated it had to happen so quickly. I like to play everything more subtle –perhaps a few less head butts or stabbings. And I was afraid it would look comedic because it was so over the top for Gabrielle. I tried to play it as primitive and instinctual as I could…"!<
This was also prominent during the Rift, particularly the Chin storyline:
!Renee: "I didn’t realize to what extreme she betrayed her best friend. So I was a bit shocked by it all and then I thought, ‘Okay, now, wait a minute. This is Gabrielle, it’s not me.’ I had to remind myself of that. [...] I wouldn’t [have betrayed Xena]. That’s where I disagreed with Gabrielle. She has such high moral beliefs and she had just killed someone and all she could think about was the good of mankind. That no one (including Ming T’ien) should be executed against their will. Her friendship came second to that."!<
!At the same time, the writers were trying to push that Gabrielle was driven by jealousy to make this decision, rather than by her super high morals.!<
There is this consistent line, where Renee sees Gabrielle a lot more as this very peaceful, loving, gentle and overall positive character (which she generally is!), whereas the writers try to bring out - and rightly so I think - a bit of that impulsivity and rashness and negative qualities, that in the later seasons translates into Gabrielle's path down the way of the warrior, and makes her overall a much more compelling character.
Is it just me, or was that really the case at the time? And what is the fandom's position? I often think that many in the fandom were a lot more in line with Renee's treatment of the character, rather than the writers', but I've had only limited exposure so idk
My opinion varies. I generally like Gabby's impulsive side, I think it gives her more depth. But I definitely think Renee was onto something, because after Ides Gabrielle really goes downhill and gets to be a bit too violent in s5 (more than can be justified from what we know of the character)
napalmnacey@reddit
Fandom was pretty protective of Gabrielle at the time, and tended to be annoyed when a character trait would shift from episode to episode. There was a term that was thrown around: YAXI (Yet Another Xena Inconsistency). The way characters were treated by the writers fell into that for sure.
What fans wanted from/for Gabrielle was different in each part of fandom. Everyone agreed that they didn’t want her being physically dragged or fighting with Xena anymore and quite frankly those were some tough weeks to go through as a viewer because we had no idea how long the “Xena/Gab split” arcs would last for or if Xena and Gabrielle would ever be the same afterwards (they weren’t but it ended up being a good thing).
_illusions25@reddit
The writers had their own constraints with time and what the network would let them get away with. And there's a bigger emphasis on Xena's storyline anyway so there were times where Gabrielle wasn't fleshed out enough or did things that were just convenient for the story. But I feel Renee's issues were always with story beats that didn't have enough support to feel organic to Gabrielle.
Being frustrated an action didn't have enough time to feel justified or realistic is very valid. Gabrielle can absolutely be driven by jealousy but then they should've shown that more, instead of justifying her actions verbally. It makes sense Gabrielle was jealous, how she reacts and what she does because of it still needs to be properly setup to feel engaging as a storyline.
NoReach1699@reddit
I'm glad the writers pushed Renée’s limits. The third season was about people falling from pedestals, and I think Gabrielle fell from Renée’s. I love Gabs’ arc, she’s my favorite character, and I’m glad she has so many flaws. Without those flaws, she would be so boring and would serve more as a plot device. She wouldn’t even feel like a real person. Despite Renée’s opinions, as an actress she carried those scenes so well. The scene in Ides is incredibly powerful. And the Rift is the peak of the show’s storytelling (for me).
No_Gear2665@reddit
I've often felt Renee O'Connor had a better understanding of Gabrielle than the writers at times. I love Gabrielle's growth from a young woman to a grown one. However i will always criticize the way the writers made Gabrielle mature by effectively turning into Xena. Unfortunately one of XWP's downfalls is it's too Xena centered and as such it stunts a lot of individual growth and characterization for side characters. The reality is the writers wrote Gabrielle to grow for Xena not with. It's one of the reasons that although I find Xena and Gabrielle's relationship narratively interesting, I dont actually like it that much as a relationship alone.
Agent8699@reddit
I think Gabrielle, as she wasn’t the title character, was primarily there to serve the show and to allow the writers to showcase Xena, the title character (with some obvious exceptions).
So, I think she could be poorly written, underwritten or just … blandly written from time to time. And I also think it was largely ROC and her very … method (?) acting where every line and action is considered, which elevated many of the scripts and the character as a whole.
I would also assume that someone like ROC feels quite protective of her character and her work and probably had a hard time with trying to understand Gabrielle’s motivations and actions when they would rapidly change at the whim of the writers or simply because they were making a fantasy action adventure show, not a prestige drama about the cycle of violence.
I think Gabrielle certainly has her fair share of flaws, including her ego, narcissism, naivety, etc, but I think they make the character more interesting.
And I think they’re also a byproduct of her relationship with Xena and the way the first person who worshipped did end up being an amazing hero (with some pretty obvious flaws of her own) and that “amazing” person turned around and put Gabrielle on an impossibly high pedestal and loved her, on the condition that she never killed, which was always a ridiculous and unrealistic burden to place on Gabrielle given their day to day adventures.
I don’t think it’s that unusual for writers and actors to have different takes. I think Hudson has a different view on a few key scenes, like her reaction to Gabrielle’s death in Sacrifice.
ObnoxiousConsistent@reddit (OP)
they both put each other on impossible pedestals, but they had fallen from them, and multiple times too, and still managed to stay together through that... that's what makes the show so good, to me. against all odds!
and yes, but i guess Renee's interpretation jumped out at me; you don't see it so much with Lucy for example. but that could indeed be down to what you say - the show was about Xena and served Xena first of all, and Gabrielle's character could be mistreated sometimes as a result
Agent8699@reddit
Lawless is very open about showing up, doing her job and going home. She was never too … attached to / interested in the character of Xena.
But, she was the star and from all accounts, she set an incredible standard for everyone on set and did her very best each and every day to make the working environment as pleasant and fun (and efficient) as it could be.
They’re just different actors.
Agent8699@reddit
Oh, absolutely! Who was Gabrielle to think that a former warlord responsible for unfathomable atrocities, would turn into her docile and obedient guard dog and never revert to her former wicked ways?! Gabrielle always seemed to struggle to accept that Evil Xena and her Xena were one and the same, even though Xena told and showed her often enough!
They each placed the other on impossibly high pedestals and then supremely overreacted when their loved ones failed to live up to their lofty and impossible expectations!
ObnoxiousConsistent@reddit (OP)
although to be completely fair, I know Xena is the titular character and all, but Gabrielle had the single most developed - and arguably most important- character arc on the show. so maybe i retract my prior statement about the mistreatment 😂 it did happen on occasion, but we cannot in good faith the show did Gabrielle dirty. maybe only in killing off the love of her life in the finale 😭
Ok-Jackfruit-6873@reddit
I just find it frustrating they never really let her get a big batte "win" because it's Xena's show. Even in later seasons she loses so many fights.
ObnoxiousConsistent@reddit (OP)
true. even though realistically by that point she’s been doing the whole fighting thing in some way as long as Xena had when the show started. and she was almost invincible even then
Ok_Kangaroo_2160@reddit
Her winning against Varia wouldn't have made sense, but episodes like "Succession" somehow still manage to underuse her.
TangledUpPuppeteer@reddit
Back then, there was sort of a belief that the more innocent you were to the world, the more idealistic, the more peaceful, calm, and genuinely kind you were.
With age and experience, you become less of that.
You still see it in much of the political discourse, actually. People are convinced that youth is liberal (peace, love, and hippy mind) because they know nothing, and as the real world bats you down, you become more conservative, and angry.
This is a similar trope, just done differently.
The young innocent farm girl is peaceful and loving, slightly impulsive, but high on morals low on know how. As she lives more and more (hate, love, a murdered husband, SA by a deity, child ripped away, etc) the experience of being able to live the life she wanted finally came to her. She got to be with Xena and live the life she wanted thanks to Eli and his teaching. It wasn’t until she felt her life, the one she had and was desperate to keep, was threatened. Then all of the high morals just melt away and you defend what is yours and what you love.
Basically, in short, based on your description and the way it plays out on screen, Renee was looking at it from a more adult perspective. Loyalty would be more important than ideals regarding both Chin and the soldiers.
Youth is impulsive and ideological. Experience means you make choices a younger version of you would hate, but it’s what you need to do to survive.
I personally think it’s a fairly boring trope that’s been done to death in most media. But I love it here because it’s such a difference from the typical portrayals that I think it’s quite powerful. Her just swiftly dispatching like 30 guys while screaming “get up” just means that’s she was always this capable. She refrained herself because she had the luxury of being able to do because Xena was there. But the moment Xena was unable to, it was worth defending with everything she had.
I’m not a fan of the message or the trope, but the way they did it was brilliant and you didn’t see it coming on original watch. Just outta the gate as good as Xena.
Agent8699@reddit
Gabrielle showed that she was capable of greatness as early as The Greater Good. It was her lack of training which let her down.
As noted, she’s generally free to … hold back or restrain herself when Xena is there. Especially when Xena likes to hog all the goons and only sends one or two Gabrielle’s way.
Those few times Xena is down, whether The Greater Good, The Quest or Ides, we get glimpses of what Gabrielle is truly capable of.
Ok-Jackfruit-6873@reddit
She loses all those fights though, right? She's very heroic but in almost any serious fight she still ends up needing someone to save her. She's a total beast in Ides but it's not like she saves Xena and they get away.
Agent8699@reddit
Yes, she loses in TGG because she hasn’t had sword training and obviously is still bound by the “do not kill” code imposed on her by Xena as a condition of travelling with Xena and being her Jiminy Cricket. But, she still does very well.
The Quest is more about her assertiveness and leadership qualities than her warrior prowess.
Ides, yes she stops fighting for multiple reasons, including shock at her bloody slaughter of all those guards and probably also a realisation that she can’t carry Xena out and fight off all the guards at the same time.
Gabrielle is dealing with a lot of trauma around killing in battle, as also seen in The Good Day, where her body physically stops her from killing.
I don’t think any of that takes away from the fact that each time she demonstrates significant skills, which become more evident in season 5 (when the script allows).
TangledUpPuppeteer@reddit
And people wonder why we love such a “silly” show. Phenomenal characters!
multiplecats@reddit
If I were a writer behind the scenes writing this show I'd be grubbing my hands together evilly and telling Renee everything she was portraying was absolutely perfect - the hope, the love, the gentleness, the pedestals, the kindness, it's all perfect for my grand evil plan to flip over the table and start the mayhem ma'am
IseQween@reddit
I admire the collaboration at every level that enabled XWP to push the envelope so well and frequently. It required a balancing act between the many hands that shaped the main characters and the actors who "owned" (became) these characters to the extent we discuss them as real people. Lucy and Renee both talk about the tension in fighting to "protect" their characters as they saw them and "letting go" in service to their characters', the story's and/or their personal development.
Renee was masterful at handling Gabrielle's frequent ... sacrifices ... as a plot device, in Gabs' seemingly abrupt, contradictory, inconsistent "evolution." She endured many insta transformations -- especially from loving mother to "bye bye Hope," from no-strings loyal partner to jealous betrayer, from peacenik to Gabinator, from staff-proficient sidekick to pointy-weapons expert warrior. I scoffed at some of these, whooped at others. But though I sometimes felt sorry for the situations Renee had to deal with, I never pitied Gabrielle.
Whatever Renee's concerns, I believe she succeed in maintaining Gabrielle's dignity and "good" nature. She elevated "Say what?" scenes above the comedic, eventually made me buy newly revealed "flaws" as credible, highlighted strengths over helplessness. I came to accept questionable changes as necessary (human) in what could've been a cardboard character without Renee's ultimate performance choices.
Ok-Jackfruit-6873@reddit
Do we actually know if that revelation of her motive was written in later? I feel like if the writers really wanted that motivation to make sense I think they would have needed to plant those scenes better in earlier episodes
ObnoxiousConsistent@reddit (OP)
this is another interesting thing by the way! i think the writers routinely did not share the intent they had with the actors. orrr they tried to reverse engineer their intent in later interviews or something 🤣
i think this is one case (i dont remember for sure, but i think the jealousy angle came into play later), and another is actually AFIN, of all things. there is a bunch in this interview with Rob https://www.whenheartscollide.net/magazines-and-newsletters/rob-tapert-17
eg - Lucy and Renee didnt know, until the day of shooting that the kiss was supposed to be a kiss - Rob and Renee’s COMPLETELY different interpretations why Gabrielle did not kill Morimoto (Rob’s “she is not a cold blooded killer” but Renee played it as - and thats how I read it too - that he did not deserve an honorable death)
there was loads of poor communication it seems, because they were in a constant time crunch with the production. but weirdly i think it gave us some excellent stuff from the actors’ interpretation. after having played these characters for so long, they were equally qualified as the writers to make choices for these characters
amyc7@reddit
Thanks for this!
I think everyone has a light and dark side. And in the context of that era, it also makes sense that some actions aren't looked at quite as horribly as they look to us with our current perspective.
Gabrielle went through a lot with Xena, and it probably made her understand how the world works, and it's not pretty.
Wise_Airport5655@reddit
Sim, concordo com você...
Gabi teve que amadurecer e aprender como funcionava a guerra muito rápido, fora a parte que ela teve que se acostumar com a morte, vira e torna, morria algum conhecido. Nas últimas temporadas, Gabi está mais resiliência e crua. Acredito que o personagem foi bem interpretado por Renee e bem escrito pelos roteiristas, eu só queria que dessem mais profundidade aos traumas dela e ajudassem na superação dos traumas.
Obs:Tadinha de Xena e Gabi, elas sofreram bastante e mereciam um final feliz.🥺
amyc7@reddit
I agree with you. Also it gives Gabby a more profound understanding of what Xena had to go through when she was young. And about the end 😭 totally true. That's why I continued reading fics and comics.
pastajewelry@reddit
Personally, I've never interpreted Xena or Gabrielle as jealous of each other, and I've always been surprised when that motivation was revealed. In fact, it was even kind of a gag in Fins, Femmes, and Gems that one was jealous of the other. I always felt they admired each other too much to feel jealous.
TheCuri0usWatcher@reddit
To me, the jealousy angle made sense. Gabrielle went through something EXTREME traumatic & it wouldn't have happened if not for Xena's blind vengeance for Caesar. After that Gabrielle was practically HUNTED & had to give up her baby, which Gabrielle wanted to keep, and refused to believe she was evil. Then after all this... Xena admits she's willing to abandon all of that, abandon Gabrielle to repay a debt to someone who isn't even alive to know of Xena honored it. I'd be pissed too! My trauma meant nothing to you? And you're abandoning me again, for another mission (which I think she told her it was an assassination), so another mission of revenge??? If anything, despite Gabrielles high morals/standards, it shows how human she is, and it took almost a whole season for her to realize how much she was lying to herself about it. It seems off because the show kind of brushed over it... which understandable, it's a hard topic...but Gabby's motives made sense to me. Gabby wanted to see Xena hurt in a way that she was hurting...Gabby felt betrayed to some degree... first being left alone, then abandoning her baby, now abandoning Gabby to "protect" her. I could see Gabby having a PTSD/codependency moment here too, being afraid to be left alone, so clinging to Xena in a toxic way, that could have gotten her killed as well, and abandoning her morals to achieve that & betray Xena. It doesn't align with her character, but it humanizes her on the same way in Ides, when Gabby said "she chose the way of friendship."
Gaby did seem to get more "violent" but 1.Xena has that affect on people, she shapes warriors. 2. Gabby was starting to understand you can't talk your way out of everything & sometimes you have to fight. You saw her DEEPLY struggle with this in the fight between Ares and Eli. It shows how war can really change even the best of people, but Gabby & Xena both show the "level headed" side of it. Xena enjoys the battle....Gabbydoesn't, but wilk do whatever she has to inorder ti defend the peopleshe loves....whether it's taking a beating, Like it Varia...or becoming ruthless like in "To Helicon & Back"......and then grounding herself again, or taming that inner fire like in AFIN. Sweet Gabrielle became Xena in my opinion, but didn't fully succumb to the dark side of war. Gabby proves war doesn't have to be always be dark & ruthless. It can be protecting, nurturing, healing in some cases.
TaniksHasNoCorn@reddit
Yeah, you nailed my opinion on the character.
For someone to discard you after all you went through with and because of them is a harsh thing to have happen. It didn't help that Ares started poking needles.
Gabrielle is a human and this show was very well written for a syndicated tv show. She was highly moral and naive, but her experiences changed her as it would anyone. Gabrielle was all the way up to season 4 flirting between being a peacenik but traveling with a warrior. At some point she would have to choose which side to embrace fully as it was only a matter of time before she would have to kill by choice (even if her first wasn't by her explicit choice)
In the first season she had no leg to stand on when she told people not to seek out vengeance when the random villagers would lose friends/family to warlords like Callisto. By the end of the 3rd season, it means more when she says not to keep propagating violence.
At the end of the day Xena is her highest priority and overtime I think Gabrielle became Xena's although Xena always felt she had a debt to undo all the bad she did early in her life.
Ok-Jackfruit-6873@reddit
One thing I noticed about Gabrielle is that for the most part, she's content to be the sidekick with relatively few scenes where she frets about in Iolaus style. Fins and Gems is the exception I think. Partly I'm sure the writers wanted a different character, partly it's that she started as a simple village girl that nobody expected much from in battle, and partly I think she values her role as Xena's best friend more than anything else. She feels her life's work is helping Xena and being moral support / keeping her good. There's something very likeable about that.
ObnoxiousConsistent@reddit (OP)
i think it’s part that the writers did not want a carbon copy of htlj (gabrielle is already short, blond, has a propensity to show off her abs, like Iolaus😁)
and another big part, at least to me, is the lack of male ego in X&G’s situation. i have only seen bits and pieces of htlj, but it’s very clear Iolaus feels insecure being a sidekick to the greatest and strongest man in the known world, and it has a very stereotypical guy vibe to it
Ok-Jackfruit-6873@reddit
Yeah to be clear I love Iolaus but that arc was addressed in depth over there and I'm sure the writers wanted to do something different. I suppose you could say Gabrielle has less excuse to be "less-than" as Xena is not known to be a demigod but honestly X & Herc's abilities are both so far above and beyond an ordinary person's that it's sort of a distinction without a difference haha
TaniksHasNoCorn@reddit
This show like Buffy TVS showed how to write really good and complex female protagonists. These two shows are perfect examples on how to write great female character led shows.
They had flaws and weren't perfect, but the audience loved them. Great stories, great dialogue, charisma out the wazoo. Some of my favorite shows to this day. The shows are so good I can look past the low budget and bad CGI because the actors carry the day.
It is interesting that Gabrielle for the most part never got jealous of being a sidekick. She was content and really just wanted to learn and be with Xena.
Iolaus kind of got shafted a bit by random people in the show. There was the one episode where when he split with Herc, the one tavernkeeper told him to go pound sand when he asked about the free meal that was offered. "Yeah, but that was YOU and HERC and you're not with HERC, so that'll be X dinars". I could certainly understand his frustration after saving the village.
Ok-Jackfruit-6873@reddit
Fair. But I'm not sure Gabi would have even claimed to help save the village, she was just thrilled to be there "with Xena." She did love to haggle though so she would have really made that innkeeper work for those dinars haha
MusicIsLife81@reddit
I don't remember what episode it was but Gabrielle did have her moments where she did go very much to a dark place. There was one episode in either the 5th or 6th season where she was chasing a guy down and was going to un-alive him and Xena had to call her back to stop her and Gabrielle makes the comment, "I don't know what is happening to me, Xena"
I wish I could remember exactly what all happened with that and what episode it was even from, but I haven't have my caffeine yet this morning so my brain is not yet functioning. 😂
ObnoxiousConsistent@reddit (OP)
yes, this! i feel like the jealousy/hurt feelings angle makes much more sense, than "Gabrielle was just so moral and seeing the world in black and white"
but anyways, for sure, for a show known for its inconsistencies, playing fast and loose with storylines and history and culture, their character work is really something legendary.
i mean to have Gabrielle start in Season 1 with "I want to be like you, teach me everything you know", go through all the trials and tribulations, and random little side quests and u turns, and then in a roundabout way by AFIN become "Xena" - but certainly not the same version she had in her head in the pilot, but a radically changed and arguably better one...
TheCuri0usWatcher@reddit
Yes! 100%!! I've argued with people about this!! People think Gabby didn't "become Xena, just because she used her chakram, Callisto did that 🙄" and I'm like YES SHE DID YALL ARE MISSING THE POINT THE CHAKRAM IS SYMBOLIC & JUST SOLIDIFIES THE ARC! 😭😭😭🤣
I be getting stressed trying to explain it LOL. Thank you for not arguing with me 😭🤣 LOLLLL 🫂
MusicIsLife81@reddit
Where is this person that you follow? I would very much like to hear Renee's perspectives on Gabrielle throughout the episodes if you don't mind. I find that stuff very interesting.
ObnoxiousConsistent@reddit (OP)
these are episode reviews from jacksonupperco each episode includes a collection of quotes from cast and crew from a variety of interviews, commentary, con appearances. it’s a real labor of love https://jacksonupperco.com/category/xena/
EasyEntrepreneur666@reddit
Honestly I had to agree on the Ides of March. It WAS comical that she now went on a kill frenzy, despite until that point she was known to be able to deal with enemies without killing them. Not to mention her next to no skill with sword.
Ok-Jackfruit-6873@reddit
I felt the same way about the sais haha like um we never really see her training with any weapon except the staff??
EasyEntrepreneur666@reddit
That too. She even acted like she never saw it before and a minute later she was an expert.
SakuraTacos@reddit
Her losing her shit and going on a killing spree made sense cuz Xena was in danger but you’re so right about Gab knowing how to wield Xena’s sword so well. At one point, iirc, she does a modified version of Xena’s backward stab and I’m like “Now who taught you that, I know it wasn’t that one half lesson all the way back in Return of Callisto!” 😂
EasyEntrepreneur666@reddit
Losing her shit was one thing but killing everyone was pointless, plus it seems like romans are untrained noobs. It could have been done more subtly and she can go berserk without the writing shoving it into our faces that "look, she's killing people".
Lia_Delphine@reddit
The main thing I remember in the original run was being totally annoyed by Gabriel’s pacifism faze. It almost stopped me from watching.
Confident-Club1310@reddit
The harder you compress a spring, the more violently it springs back. That's the analogy that comes to mind when I think about Gabrielle's sudden change after the Ides of March. In season four, Gabrielle tried with all her might to reconcile the irreconcilable: being beside the most powerful warrior while walking the Path of Non-Violence. Following her heart, she tries to suppress her common sense. The spring is compressing. When this internal conflict is resolved (the Ides of March), the spring springs back — so much so that it's sometimes terrifying to watch. And Renee played that transformation brilliantly