How do well known people (like the recent civil servant) just get fired but normal employees get to go through a process?

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billy_tables@reddit

Olly Robbins is going to take the government to tribunal so the story isn't over!

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This is the answer. You may have seen the chap sitting behind Robbins, to his right, at the hearing. That was Dave Penman, the boss of his union the FDA. I have absolutely no doubt that there will be the mother and father of an ET application unless the Government settles. So far as I can see, this was the clearest example of unfair dismissal that could possibly be imagined, and the taxpayer will now be on the hook for the thick end of £500k.

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neilm1000@reddit

and the taxpayer will now be on the hook for the thick end of £500k.

If we factor in legal costs (they won't be using the GLD for this one), it might be that much. But his schedule of loss won't be anywhere near that. How have you worked it out?

Source: ex Acas conciliator and senior/national TU rep.

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Conscious-Rope7515@reddit

Compare Philip Rutnam's case. He got £340,000 and costs. £50k either side for legals and you're at a comparable figure. A reasonable benchmark, I think.

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neilm1000@reddit

Rutnam didn't get to ET. Robbins won't either, but if he did it couldn't possibly get to £500k without a massive Vento award (not applicable here). Basic award is capped at £22,530 and the compensatory award at £123,453. The govt won't want the embarrassment though.

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ChelseaMourning@reddit

We call it a notice period. They call it “garden leave” with a six figure payoff.

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Decent_Confidence_36@reddit

There not fired there paid off, if you was underperforming at work and your company said here’s 100k if you leave would you ?

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DazzlingSwim3199@reddit (OP)

Yes obviously but I’m questioning the speed at which these firings happen. I know people who’ve been given a payoff to leave and it’s generally taken a while to sign off.

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Decent_Confidence_36@reddit

I think it’s because usually the mistake they’ve made / think they stood against is public knowledge so the employer just wants there name removed from the company asap.. with normal people it’s private so they will follow a process so nothing comes back against them

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neilm1000@reddit

You can actually just fire someone: you should follow a process but if you sack them, deny them entry to the building and so on their only remedy is the ET. You can't actually make an employer follow the correct process because there isn't actually a way of enforcing it.

When I worked for Acas, I had several cases exactly like this: if an employer basically says "fine, take me to court" that is the only thing you can do and it is after the fact.

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KingGeedo91@reddit

I imagine for some of these top roles it’s more of a “asking you to step down” along with a pay off.

Ministers specifically can be sacked without notice

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Gauntlets28@reddit

The thing about ministers in particular is that the role is usually a job that stacks on top of their regular job as an MP, so not being a minister is more like the scope for your job being reduced with a proportional pay cut, rather than a typical firing.

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wizard_mitch@reddit

Being a minister isn't a job at its an appointment so there is no employment contract and employment rights don't apply

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neilm1000@reddit

You do, however, get a loss of office payment.

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PARFT@reddit

because he gets a million quid

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MobiusNaked@reddit

Probably £350k

£200K salary, 21 months payoff

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PARFT@reddit

…and the early retirement potential service pension

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DazzlingSwim3199@reddit (OP)

I’d go with it for that! He seems quite upset tbf

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EvilLee666@reddit

Are they put on Garden leave that covers their notice period?

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cgknight1@reddit

Generally, Garden leave is used when someone is leaving but still on good terms. In what we are discussing, if is generally PILON.

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EvilLee666@reddit

Thanks for the clarification.

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cgknight1@reddit

I say this as a man who mysteriously left my org on a Friday afternoon in March 😂

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massdebate159@reddit

Those people don't just get sacked, they get an enormous pay off to go. I'd happily get sacked for a few million.

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cgknight1@reddit

He is not getting a few million.

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massdebate159@reddit

I wasn't talking about him. OP mentioned CEOs and they're well known for being paid off.

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ElectronicHeat6139@reddit

He might if he gets a book deal.

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MobiusNaked@reddit

Book deals are no where near a million quid for a basically unknown person.

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DazzlingSwim3199@reddit (OP)

I know but I find the speed of it weird. Do they fire and then worry about the cost later?

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Open-Butterfly-5288@reddit

Put another way.

Suppose you're McDonald's and that CEO just screwed up eating a burger. You're watching social media in real time go "Yeah, their burgers are kinda gross" and you can see the stock price diving.

A multimillion dollar payout for a bad CEO sounds like a huge deal. But paying that out means that McDonald's can pull out of a dip worth multiples of that simply by placing their trust in another CEO. Whether or not they can turn things around, they can tell people that they're trying to turn it around and that's a good start.

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Laescha@reddit

Basically yeah. In many normal organisations it can take like a week or two, the employer and the employee (or their respective solicitors) will negotiate an agreement about when and how the person leaves, what the public line is about why they left, and how much the person gets paid to go quietly and promptly.

Organisations that are super image conscious can get it done a lot quicker than that.

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ViscountGris@reddit

Compromise agreements - both parties agree the contract of employment is untenable due to unspecified events and compensation is paid. If you refuse then your career nosedives and you get investigated for potential misconduct which would result in dismissal and an end to any potential employment anywhere due to reputation. Senior civil servants will receive 1-2 years of salary to go without fuss.

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RhubarbImmediate7007@reddit

To quote a conversation I had a while ago… “we intend to fire you. It could take up to 6 months, or £50k for you to leave now without a fuss”

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DrakeManley@reddit

I had a similar conversation.

"We're looking at disciplinary action (made up shit that I knew I was in the right about) or we could offer you a sum of money to just leave"

Got the union involved straight away, bit of negotiation later I left a few days later with a few quid in my bank.

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Careless_Soup_109@reddit

This seemed to happen to a colleague of mine - they were no big shot, but it was suddenly announced they were just leaving and that was that. I'm thinking PILON. That personally is my ambition- I more commonly get pressured into serving the full notice period.

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peppermint_aero@reddit

PIlon plus garden leave, I'm guessing

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cgknight1@reddit

PILON is just one element of it and in what is discussed above there is additional payment.

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VolcanicBear@reddit

Were you on the receiving end? Which option did they/you take?

The money seems a no-brainer if you have some skills and are on the way out anyway, depending on current salary.

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DrakeManley@reddit

I was on the receiving end.

Had been there for 8 years, my manager retired, I was absorbed into another department with a manager that I didn't get along with.

He was a 2 faced prick who was promoted beyond his capabilities and I'd called him out for various stuff over the previous 8 years.

The union was worried that they would end up making some stuff stick and I'd end up getting fired and leaving with nowt so I took the cash and ran.

Set up my own business and never been happier.

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VolcanicBear@reddit

Glad that worked out for you!

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Pedantichrist@reddit

It is called a compromise agreement.

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cgknight1@reddit

Clearly not signed in this situations because of the statements he's made and the fact that he referred to action he would be taking.

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Chris-TT@reddit

One example is that MPs who hold positions such as Chancellor remain Members of Parliament even if they are removed from that role. If they are sacked, they usually return to being a backbench MP and continue to receive the standard MP salary, although they lose the additional pay associated with the ministerial position. This is a normal and expected part of how government roles operate.

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Daveddozey@reddit

MPs are very different to normal jobs. Terrible example.

Hell you can’t even resign as an MP.

To be fired requires a recall petition only granted in certain cases. The only other ways to leave are to get a very specific job, or to die.

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Professional-Bat4134@reddit

We get sacked, those guys get paid off.

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72dk72@reddit

Just like football managers. Do a crap job and get paid a big chunk of money to go.

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Kapika96@reddit

Money. Regular employees definitely can get sacked on the spot too, it'd usually cost the company significantly more in compensation for doing so though, hence why they go through the process to save money. For people in high profile roles it's often better to just pay them off to sack them ASAP rather than continue letting them screw up while going through the long process.

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conduit_for_nonsense@reddit

Dismissal for SOSR - Some Other Substantial Reason.

Pretty catch all reason, including breakdown of the relationship.

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spaceshipcommander@reddit

You don't get sacked beyond a certain level. You get told you're leaving and get paid to shut up. Or you set up your own consulting firm and subcontract back to the place you've been asked to leave for a period of time.

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Open-Butterfly-5288@reddit

A lot of this is reflected in their pay and conditions. They are taking these things in return for a difference in their employment relationships.

If you're CEO of a business that you don't own, you are being hired to keep the confidence of the shareholders. If things happen, the shareholders have the mechanism required to oust you. The second that they don't have confidence they can simply appoint the job to someone else. These often come with exit clauses and payments so the CEO doesn't lose by leaving. Additionally, the CEO may be appointed in interim and so will go in knowing that they have limited terms and stated objectives that make staying around impossible. They will usually get paid out for such circumstances.

Similarly a lot of major public officials are appointed, not hired, and similarly have the same kinds of expectations. Every so often, there is a body that appoints or displaces these officials. And similarly there are exit clauses and payments so that the official doesn't lose out.

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CodeToManagement@reddit

Everyone can be sacked if there’s real reason for it. Most companies go through the processes because they don’t want to get sued so it’s cheaper long run to pay someone a couple months while they get all the info together.

Redundancy is a different process.

CEOs etc being replaced have severance clauses in their contracts.

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Ill_Refrigerator_593@reddit

There's either a deal made behind the scenes so they don't go to tribunal or they take the legal route with a large chaance of a payout.

I heard of an example where after an embarrassing day in parliament a minister of a previous government had a tantrum where the lowest ranking person in the office was sacked on the spot.

This led to a six figure payout that never reached the headlines.

However due to the nature of recent events the government want people to know someone is being sacked.

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novelty-socks@reddit

> But normal people (with a level of tenure) can’t just be fired, they have to go through some process

While this is true, in private sector I've seen firings dressed up with enough of a payoff to make it worth your while signing an NDA and leaving quietly!

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Tonybham01@reddit

Anyone can ‘just get fired’ if they screw up seriously enough. There is usually a process as well for other reasons screw ups.

It depends on the nature and severity of the offence.

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BoopingBurrito@reddit

You get told you're leaving, and then you get a decent sized pay out. In the civil service its pegged against the standard voluntary exit scheme, which is the civil service version of redundancy. So its 1 month salary for every year of service, capped at 21 months of salary.

If you refuse to go, you miss out on that payment and end up going through a redeployment process where you get sat in an office with nothing to do until they find a vacancy at your grade to offer you. Turn down a couple of opportunities, or go a certain length of time with no suitable vacancies coming up, and they can end your employment without payment. So everyone takes the offer.

As for how it moves so fast - it doesn't move as fast as the press makes it seem. He wasn't fired overnight. He was removed from post immediately, and the paperwork was started. It takes a week or two for everything to be sorted, in that time he's no longer in post but is employed and being paid.

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DazzlingSwim3199@reddit (OP)

Thanks

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seven-cents@reddit

The more senior your position the more accountability you have (theoretically).

Also, a scapegoat is required to deflect from the failures of everyone else who should be held accountable

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Upstairs-Quail5709@reddit

It's possible under "Gross Misconduct" clause. Bit naughty mind you.

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Fine-State8014@reddit

It'll go down as gross misconduct or something. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 pounds.

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AncientImprovement56@reddit

I think you mean "pass go repeatedly, collect 200 thousand pounds"

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Fine-State8014@reddit

You're right, he'll probably be lord robbins soon

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DazzlingSwim3199@reddit (OP)

Yeah but at my place even for gross misconduct there needs to be a disciplinary and a hearing and a right to appeal.

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ProgressMiserable878@reddit

It's all theatre for those that watch the te lie vision. They are puppets for the WEF anyway. Being a Sir means your in the club.👿

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cgknight1@reddit

Normal people with "tenure" get fired all the time - the company simply weights up the risk of an ET and associated costs. Most people do not have the time or energy to fight.

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Street-Frame1575@reddit

They don't get sacked, they get resigned

In other words, they get paid handsomely to resign quietly without a fuss and without controlling the narrative

Failure to do so risks financial ruin defending against the "sacking" as well as ensuring no other job will touch you in the future as you're now labelled "troublesome"

If ever faced with something similar, take the money...

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ClarifyingMe@reddit

I wish the people I worked with in my last job got sacked. You'd think they have some sort of salacious blackmail docket on every single decision maker in that place the way they get away with any and everything. HR protects the company? Not there. Scary levels of comfortable incompetents just there for years and years and years. If you can maintain your sanity, you've got a nice cushty pay packet than goes up every single year. I am weak, I couldn't do it and left.

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