Do you think it was the right choice or a cultural distortion?
Posted by Deep-Ad4183@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 62 comments
Posted by Deep-Ad4183@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 62 comments
LingonberryDizzy6633@reddit
It was the only choice to make.
Arabic is incompatible with the language.
Cyrillic is an improvement but still not sufficient.
There is a Turkic script but very old, outdated and unknown. You'd need to start from day 1 with getting enough teachers for it first.
Latin makes the most sense.
vbd71@reddit
You could've chosen Greek, Armenian or Georgian script.
Deep-Ad4183@reddit (OP)
No writing system is incompatible with any language. It’s all a matter of choice.
Here, Chechen is written using the Cyrillic alphabet.
reverse_enthropy@reddit
Okay, try writing English with Mandarin script then.
Deep-Ad4183@reddit (OP)
In fact, the Chinese writing system can be applied to any language. You just need to know the meaning of each character, regardless of how you pronounce it. In other words, if you come across the symbol for the word “dog,” we both know that this Chinese character corresponds to that meaning, but you say it in Turkish and I say it in Greek when we see it, we understand the same meaning.
MyPlantsDieSometimes@reddit
The Latin version of Chinese is called Pinyin. It doesn't work as well because there is words that are written and pronounced identically but have different meanings because of different character (logograms). Some alphabets are better suited to specific languages because of the sounds words are made up of. If you've ever tried writing a Cyrillic alphabet in Latin you'd know how silly it can look.
deaddyfreddy@reddit
It's a matter of taste and habit.
In my opinion, some Cyrillic letters look uglier than any Latin letter with diacritics (and I was born and lived in two countries that use Cyrillic exclusively).
LBNL, these days, more Slavic languages use the Latin alphabet than the Cyrillic alphabet.
MyPlantsDieSometimes@reddit
Da zashtoto Kato pishja na shlokovitza izglezhda mongo kulturno. Come on this looks like slang in literary form for both Latin and Cyrillic readers 😂
deaddyfreddy@reddit
It's because you used slang instead of the proper Latin¹² that most Slavic languages use.
"sh" - š
"zh" - ž
"tz" - c
etc
You are welcome.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_orthography#Alphabet
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaj%27s_Latin_alphabet
MyPlantsDieSometimes@reddit
I didn't use any slang or slang grammar 👀 maybe the word shliokovitza (шльоковица) but still written exactly just latinised. Cyrillic has very hard pronunciations and tones with short sounds. Latin has a lot more elongated sounds. Even Italian doubles up letters for hard K R sounds. Whereas in Bulgarian for example it's unusual for us to have a W Yu Ouu sounds like English. Romanian is interesting because it uses Latin but sounds 50% Italian 50% Slavic/Bulgarian language
deaddyfreddy@reddit
that's the problem - it's not a Latinization, it's an Anglicization.
Not Cyrillic, but Bulgarian. Different languages that use Cyrillic have different pronunciations.
Belarusian ў, Ukrainian в/у
most Slavic languages have it
Alternative-Tie-4970@reddit
Incompatible does not necessarily mean impossible. It's like trying to fit a square brick into a circular hole, you can shave parts of it off, and use more filling for the other parts, but in the end, you would have been better off just using a circular brick.
oops_all_memes@reddit
If I had to guess I'd say the issue is vowels? Turkish is very vowel rich (o vs ö, u vs ü, i vs ı and ğ) and I can't imagine how you adapt it to Arabic script without resorting to some very complicated decisions. Do you denote every paired vowel with a consonant? Every time? With how vowel harmonies work in Turkish 1/2 of the words would be absurdly long for no good reason
Deep-Ad4183@reddit (OP)
That’s a good point. It’s just that if you want to do something a certain way, you can find a way to do it. The Karamanlides wrote Turkish using the Greek alphabet.
LingonberryDizzy6633@reddit
What are the problems with Chechen and Cyrillic?
Deep-Ad4183@reddit (OP)
This is an example to show you that a language can be written using any writing system. In most cases
Zealousideal_Cry_460@reddit
İ'd have preferred the old Turkic script. İts a syllabic script which fits perfectly for Turkish since it is a syllabic language. The only thing it needed was more letters, and for that we could look into the Yenisei-Kyrgyz Alphabet or the Old Hungarian Alphabet, both are direct descendants of the old Turkic script.
İ guess back then the population simply wasnt aware that the script existed outside of murals. İlliterate villagers dont usually learn about archeology naturally.
kaubojdzord@reddit
Atatürk was a nationalist bourgeois revolutionary, linguistic reforms were a part of nation building of Turkey as a modern nation states in contrast to semi feudal the Ottoman empire. It was important in creating a clean line between the Ottomans and modern Turkey.
bruhmanbruuh@reddit
Exactly.
Every balkan nation in the golden era of nationalism underwent such a purification butchering to its language. Greece ,Romania , Turkey etc.
Less about being functional, more about nation building. Except the script part.
Zealousideal_Cry_460@reddit
Not just every Balkan country, but every great culture on earth.
Chinese, German, British English, Japanese, Korea, İran, France, russia, they all had a period of purification efforts. Because cultures are born in isolation, not in unison, unfortunately. Cut off a group of people for a long time and eventually they will develop their own customs and cultures. Thats why every large culture had some form of purification. Just look at all the words that shakespear coined/invented in his works that we use to this day, this was also an effort if purification.
bruhmanbruuh@reddit
Promoting a "standardised" language while at the same time going out of your way to curb stomp any other , this doesn't seem like "great culture".
In Greece for example, those promoting "purified Greek - kathareuousa " did it on the expense of every other Greek and non- Greek dialect. My grandfathers language (and therefore culture) is almost dead because of that.
Zealousideal_Cry_460@reddit
Noone was forbidding people to speak a different language, the language reform only affected the nationally recognized language and official documents. You were still able to publish, speak and listen to your personal language/script all you want as long as its not concerning official documents.
And yeah it hurt some Turkish dialects too as istanbulite Turkish was taken as the sole successor of modern Turkish even though most people hadnt used istanbulite Turkish and spoke anatolian Turkish dialect. But people still sometimes speak anatolian Turkish and pronounce the letters Q, Ñ, X and Ə even if they're not written out.
İt was a good standard that they set, İ just hope we can fix it when a new government comes in charge.
My father was a Yörük descendant. İ know the struggles of marginalization and discrimination within ones own society all too well
bruhmanbruuh@reddit
"Citizen speak Turkish" campaign would like to disagree with that.
A far cry to what countries like Italy or Switzerland have managed to achieve, without diminishing one's culture. French- style nationalism and statehood are a true cancer to that.
I too know that story.My parents are Arvanites , albanian speakers. Teachers and priests used to beat them at school for speaking it. Bulgarian speakers in the north of the country had it even worse, the police had you under watch. Thankfully , this has stopped in Greece since the 80s. Pretty bad we are far from a revival or even just preservation like Cornish in Cornwall/England or Irish.
JiF905JJ@reddit
Ζητώ η Δημοτική!
bruhmanbruuh@reddit
Προτιμώ να υπάρχουν και οι δύο , και οι δύο έχουν να πουν μια δικιά τους ιστορία.
Βέβαια για τον απλό λαό και τα βιώματά του , δημοτική δαγκωτο ( και όποια άλλη ελληνική και μη διάλεκτος ίδιου βεληνεκούς)
islakbanyoterligi31@reddit
Just try to learn how to read in arabic script and compare it with learning a latin one. Only then you will realize how good of a choice this actually was
Deep-Ad4183@reddit (OP)
Is it difficult to learn something as a child? I don't think so. That happens when you have to make the transition while you're used to the Latin alphabet.
Additional-Penalty97@reddit
The rate of being able to read and write at the time was 5% which meant the old people were to learn it either way.
Not even going into the case of the fittingness of languague still changes as you need to effectively use it.
islakbanyoterligi31@reddit
Arabic script could work however its WAYYY harder to learn the turkish language with it. Trust me, i tried to learn it ever since i was little goober thanks to some of my conservative relatives. Its was all essentially a bloated version of the language and kemal just polished it up
Deep-Ad4183@reddit (OP)
Fortunately, though, you can now read a fairly ancient language. I understand what you're saying, but in the end, he benefited from it.
islakbanyoterligi31@reddit
another W from the goat then
Deep-Ad4183@reddit (OP)
Ahahaha 😂
Lachanadan@reddit
linguist here. turks have not lost their language overnight. they just changed the WRITING ALPHABET. it was still spoken the same.
the literacy levels were very low at the time and the arabic script wasnt doing any favors. the turkic language being a very vowel heavy language was really incompatible with the no vowels arabic script. With the introduction of the new script just in a few years turkish literacy skyrocketed. nothing was lost if we look at the numbers. a lot was gained.
Atatürk was a visionary. possibly the greatest thing ever happened to turks. but if i were him i would let the arabic script be as well. just like how the japanese people kept their old archaic chinese script where every character is a word, together with their syllabic script where every character is a syllable (just perfect for japanese where syllables are the norm).
maybe i am mistaken, maybe i cant read the exact situation he was in. but this video is blatantly wrong. ty.
Deep-Ad4183@reddit (OP)
Look, the counterargument is that there was a deliberate attempt to eliminate many Persian and Arabic loanwords to the point where, as the narrator of the video points out, the language initially became almost incomprehensible due to a sudden shift in the population toward the new orientation, where it also causes oppression in daily life and a break from the normal course of history.
More_Ad_5142@reddit
The fact is that there were two Turkish languages really. One elite Turkish “Ottoman” spoken by the elite Constantinopolitans, just a tiny fraction of the society. The other was the vulgar Turkish spoken by the masses. The language that expired was the Ottoman one in favor of the vulgar Turkish. It is ironic that as a Turk today I can barely understand (even in reading) the heavily Arabic and Persian influenced Ottoman Turkish with its contorted lexicon and grammatical constructions, whereas when I watch a documentary listening to Karamanlica (the language of the Karamanlides), I understand everything clearly because it is one of the purest forms of vulgar Turkish.
Lachanadan@reddit
thats both an impossible and a baseless arguement. you cant just change how people talk overnight. at all. you sure can try to offer replacement words in your language to "purify" (language purist opinion) but it is ultimately up to the masses to adopt your new words or keep using the old ones. noone has been persecuted for the way they spoke, nothing was forced. i saw you trying to push the idea that no alphabet is incompatible with any language which is wrong. with a language that has a lot of vowels in it arabic script is really not compatible with it. at least it is less compatible than a full set alphabet. the chinese alphabet example you have given even shows how wrong you are thinking. it is archaic, old, and very clumsy where you have to memorize every single word.
Attempts to dictate and prescribe language to masses has always been done and will keep on being done by people or organizations in power (prescriptive linguistics) but ultimately it will always be the people who chooses to adopts some stuff and not with the others, and descriptive linguistics just describe how people talk/write a language.
I am in no way trying to one up you or show off. i am literally giving you a direction on where to continue reading (check out language purist movements, descriptive and prescriptive grammar). i wont be replying again. i hope you read more. love.
Deep-Ad4183@reddit (OP)
I understand what you're saying about the compatibility of writing systems with each language. I agree that some writing systems are more compatible than others with certain languages. What I pointed out, however, is that any writing system can be adapted to any spoken language. I’m aware of the standardization process and what speakers will ultimately choose. In Greece, for a century and a half, official discourse featured both the archaic, refined Katharevousa created by Adamantios Korais used in public speech and writing, as well as by the elite among themselves as a sign of prestige and the vernacular spoken language. In the end, the latter prevailed.
Zealousideal_Cry_460@reddit
Literally no average joe in Turkey mourns the arabic script.
İt was an era of illiteracy, with a good reason: Atatürk worked with scientists who determined that mastering the arabic script, actually mastering it, took 3 years. While mastering the latin script on average took only 1 year.
Because the arabic script has 3 short vowels and 3 long vowels, but Turkic languages often have 8 vowels or more. So you'll simply have to memorize a lot of arabic words since the same signs will be used for many many words and which word is intended by the writer must be inferred by the reader, which is simply limiting.
So yeah, noone even mourns the arabic script. Noone mastered it except for the elite, anyone complaining about "not being able to read their ancestors scriptures" wouldnt have read it either way because for 99% of people their grandfathers were illiterate villagers and nomads. Not intellectual elites.
Turkish in particular is so easy to learn because the words are actually written the way it is spoken. No weird dissonances like in many other languages. The only thing that truly botheres me about the current alphabet was that they removed the letters Q, Ñ, X, Ə, since they were the standard in Turkey, and the fact that the language reforms didnt make pronounciation lessons mandatory, so the Ğ is largely forgotten today.
Thats the only loss of language. Everything else was excellent, thank Atatürk.
EvilInGood@reddit
Our literacy rates were terrible at the time Arabic script was being used. And there were so many words that could be barely spelled in Turkish. I'm glad we switched to Latin and reformed the language.
Lol43216789@reddit
Of course it was the right choice, because Ataturk was the GOAT
thatMrGecko@reddit
but also because barely anyone knew how to read the old script, let alone write it
this is regressive propaganda
the-joatmon@reddit
literacy rate explains it already. before the revolution (1928) it was below %10, it rapidly climbed around %25 in 1935 and continued...
468579@reddit
The fact most Turks cannot read any document from before around 1928 is indeed an unfortunate side effect of the reform. We must however remember that, at the time of the reform, only about 10% of Turks could read at all! The good far outweighs the bad, and this is confirmed by the two-fold increase in the literacy rate by 1935.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Boomers here praise him a lot.
Le_Fish_In_Lava@reddit
they have the right to tbh
Ujemegaz@reddit
It is interesting that Albania kept relations with Turkey despite of ideological differences especially during communism, and i think it is because of Ataturk's principles. Circles in Albania were relatively well informed about his achievements and reforms. Maybe it coincides with Zog attempt to westernize Albania, and then Hoxha, who for wrong reasons, removed religion altogether.
Le_Fish_In_Lava@reddit
tbf Ataturk has a saying that goes like: "peace at home, peace in the world". He had mutual respect for every nation.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Well, during interwar period the relations had up and downs, especially after Zog decided to become a king and we hosted the Bektashi world center. Plus Albania had already protested the population exchange.
LingonberryDizzy6633@reddit
I thought Albanians didn't like Turks?
Ujemegaz@reddit
Why did you think so. Plus, Ataturk is a universal figure. Many authors in the 1930s wrote books aboit Ataturk praising him.
LingonberryDizzy6633@reddit
Just the idea from lurking this sub and the albania/kosovo subs.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Personally, i like Turks. Maybe when debating about historic or political topics i might give such impression.
chrstianelson@reddit
Within the context of the time and what they were trying to achieve, yes it was.
What were they trying to achieve?
1- Increase literacy rates
2- Make a clean break from Arabic and Islamic influences.
Arabic script is hard to learn and teach. Switching to Latin alphabet made learning and teaching much easier. Thereby increasing the literacy rate.
The second requires more context which can get very convoluted and long, but the gist of the story is that Ataturk believed one of the biggest reasons why the Ottoman Empire failed to compete and was left behind compared to Europe was the strong influence of Ulema class (the conservative religious clerks) in the State's affairs.
He believed the new Turkish nation had to make a clean break from all regressive Islamic influence, turn towards the West, embrace science, intellectualism and progress. He also believed that as the Ottoman Empire was torn apart by waves of minority nationalism, the only way for the Turkish nation to survive was to make sure people were unified behind an identity of Turkishness, instead of Islam, which is itself culturally Arabic.
Switching to Latin wasn't the only thing they did to achieve that goal mind you. They also banned religious attires, banned fez in favour of European style hats, banned prayers and azan from being recited in Arabic and translated them to Turkish. Published Turkish interpretation of the Quran and also worked to translate it. Disbanded the ulema class and founded the Directorate of Religious Affairs to bring religious institutions and officials under government control, train new religious clerks themselves and appoint them.
These were all designed to diminish and eventually erase the influence and visibility of the conservative religious class from public view.
It was somewhat successful, but was never finished. Ataturk died relatively early due cirrhosis owing to his legendary amounts of alcohol consumption. After he died some compromises were made because these reforms weren't exactly popular. Who would've guessed trying to completely change a people's culture and upsetting powerful, established interest groups would have faced resistance?
Eventually when the country switched to multi-party democracy, the government that came to power was an Islamic-conservative one led by a Proto-Erdogan. They undid many of these reforms and gave some of the power back to religious class.
And although that guy and some of his cronies were hanged by the military in the first coup d'état, their rollback of reforms were left intact.
Still, religious people still hate Ataturk to this day because of it.
Hey, Greeks and Islamic fundamentalist have something in common after all!
Deep-Ad4183@reddit (OP)
Excellent answer
Unim8@reddit
-a very rich language which developed for 600 years
-only like a few people knew how to read and write because of how bad it was
Mguener@reddit
A very rich language that was not Turkish
Unim8@reddit
It basically was like adding too many features, buttons and all that into a software from all the other softwares(languages) which made it a buggy complicated mess. What Ataturk did was simplify and polish it to be a software that can be understood by people who use it. If you compare French and Turkish for example, the Turkish words are only written in a single way, which is how they are readen and pronounced while many words in the French language can be written/spelled in many different ways. I'm not sure if I was able to explain it well but there were 2 French people who basically compared Turkish words and French words which really explains how simplified Turkish is.
BurgurluGenc031@reddit
As a ex muslim which is learned how to read arabic letters at quran course(which is funny shit bcs they dont teach what it means,just how to read the alphabet and letters lol) OF COURSE İT WAS RİGHT CHOİCE. Even it was done mostly for keep and turn back to their culture more it was also easier and better since the word symbols are simple and easy to seperate. Before Atatürk switch it to latin alphabet,other turk countries was already switched to latin alphabet. İn the end all turk or turkic countries was talking and writin in same alphabet,communicating with no problem and barriers. But russia then forced to change the alphabets in the ones they have rules and power in it,all of it different slavic alphabet making it harder to commucinate.
Deep-Ad4183@reddit (OP)
I don't know if it made communication more difficult, but thank you for bringing that up.
Successful-Biggy@reddit
It was the best choice. Even before Ataturk there was some experiments for writing Turkish latin alphabet. Ataturk, set the perfect letter set, arabic alphabet was not enough for all the sounds in Turkish.
camelBackIsTheBest@reddit
Someone’s greatest sin some people say.
Mguener@reddit
A 100% right decision