Belgrade, Sofia and Tirana have only one Ottoman era mosque left, Athens has zero, how about other Balkan capitals?

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Soggy-Claim-582@reddit

There are more Ottoman era mosques in Belgrade than pre Ottoman churches.

Interesting fact: Serbian Parliament (that building was federal pariliament of Yugoslavia) was built on the site of the penultimate mosque in Belgrade - Batal Mosque (meaning the abandoned mosque, since int was abandoned a long time before the construction started).

Some people say that this fact brought bad luck to parliamentarism in Yugoslavia and Serbia.

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127x108@reddit

Context needed:

According to historians (for example Milorad Ekmečić) in belgrade at the peak of turkish control, there were 47 active mosques (at that time, belgrade was a city of max. 100.000 inhabitants). These mosques weren't some sheds, they are describes as "having led or bronze roofs" which indicates status.

These mosques were mostly demolished during wars with austria-hungary from 17 to 18 century. Austria-hungary also destroyed old serbian pre-ottoman churches, as they were orthodox (regarded as sect by Catholics). The clearest examples are just beneath belgrade fortress. When you stand on fortress walls towards danube and look down, you will see remains of metropolitanate of Belgrade's administrative headquarters. Beside that building, the main cathedral was located. Built by Despot Stefan Lazarević, the ruler of belgrade in 15th century, it was deconstructed completely by the Austro-hungarians during the retreat from belgrade in 1739.

So, there WERE mosques in belgrade. There WERE pre-ottoman churches in belgrade. They were mostly destroyed in many wars fought over belgrade. Historians argue, but 40 or 41 times has belgrade been destroyed, partly or completely.

So don't look at present and jump to conclusions.

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Equivalent-Water-683@reddit

Skopje has a lot.

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Suitable_Cow6560@reddit

Skopje has 35 mosques that were built during Ottoman times. Notable and active Ottoman mosques in Skopje include:

👉 Sultan Murad Mosque (1436) — one of the oldest. 👉 Ishak Bey Mosque (1438–1439). 👉 Gazi Isa Bey Mosque (1475–1476). 👉 Mustafa Pasha Mosque (1492) — often called one of the most beautiful in the Balkans, near the Kale Fortress. 👉 Yahya Pasha Mosque (1504). 👉 Haji-kasamova Mosque (1489–1490) And many others

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Aga_Xeno@reddit

In Athens, there is the historical Tzisdarakis Mosque in Monastiraki Metro Station - it operates more as a museum than a mosque and the brand new Keramikos Mosque which operates normally as a mosque. Both do not have minarets.

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True-Blacksmith4235@reddit

Not just Ottoman era, but i think this is the only active mosque in Belgrade in general.

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TheSamuil@reddit

I think that it was the same story in Bulgaria. At least I remember someone telling me how around Ramadan the area surrounding it was crowded with people praying

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True-Blacksmith4235@reddit

Kinda wild to me considering Belgrade has a population of 1.5 million people, and has like 100 churches, to only have one mosque.

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Educational-Fox7994@reddit

Well not that wild considering that 90% of the population in Belgrade is Ortodox, while there are less than 2% of Muslims.

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stikaznorsk@reddit

Interesting about the mosque is that within a 500-meter radius, there is a synagogue and Orthodox and Catholic temples.

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Local_yabanci@reddit

The square of tolerance! I loved your country when I visited. Not sure if it was Ottoman era, but I remember a mosque and hearing the call to pray in Veliko Tarnovo. Such a cool town!

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Minskdhaka@reddit

*churches

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always_later@reddit

same in Constanta

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vic_lupu@reddit

As I remember it is also possible to go up the minaret, and there is a nice view from there.

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HanDjole998@reddit

And Sarajevo

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TheSamuil@reddit

Yeah, a symbol of tolerance and so on

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Stealthfighter21@reddit

And none were locals.

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Educational-Fox7994@reddit

There is one in Borča I think

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cyclopsontrampoline@reddit

Not from Ottoman era.

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Educational-Fox7994@reddit

Correct, but I answered to a comment that states that Bajrakli mosque is the only one active in Belgrade.

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dmrdjen01@reddit

Isn’t there one in Novi Sad as well?

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P-l-Staker@reddit

I believe Athens never really had much to begin with anyway. It was barely a village during Ottoman times, whereas every other city has been a city continously since the medieval period at least.

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Dear_Wrongdoer7271@reddit

Because the one in Monastiraki is what?

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Marius_Sulla_Pompey@reddit

I mean you can’t really expect anything after converting Hagia Sophia into a mosque where there are tens of thousands of them in Istanbul. You reap what you sow.

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More_Ad_5142@reddit

Huh? Istanbul has hundreds of churches. What does the conversion of Hagia Sofia in 1453 (550 years ago) has anything to do with it? Is Hagia Sofia standing today, yes. What happened to the mosques in Balkans, destroyed. I wish they were converted to churches. Your comment is borderline regressive Christian nationalism.

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shiwonozomu_majochan@reddit

My takeaway is that we also have the right to convert or demolish any facility/building serving religions other than ours, and seeing the sentiment of christians in these comments maybe we should, reciprocity and all.

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CataphractBunny@reddit

Ottomans came to attack the city and we sent them packing. No "Ottoman era" anything in Zagreb. 👍

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Crypzzz@reddit

The actual between the lines message why all those mosques have disappeared. How some cannot comprehend.. .

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Itsgxl@reddit

Ouch. That hurt

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CasperGwamm@reddit

Obligatory: Fuck the Ottomans.

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No_Calligrapher1190@reddit

The only acceptable answer should be zero mosques after the occupation forces left.

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SE_prof@reddit

I really don't like these thinly veiled posts whose only attempt is to steer controversy in the comments...

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No_Calligrapher1190@reddit

It's known that AskBalkans and its mods are encouraging Turkish ethnicism. Already muted it and wait a normal Balkan sub reddit to appear.

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Aathos_YT@reddit

I'm legitimately thinking about leaving the sub because of this. I never participated in this community much, only occasionally interacting with a few posts that appear as I'm scrolling, but as of late I've been seeing more and more of these posts that just seem like they try to be controversial on purpose. I used to be a member of 2balkan4u for a bit before it shut down and I unironically felt more like I was part of an actual community there than here. This sub has gone to shit and I hate that no one is talking about it. Sorry for my rant.

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Elmalukat@reddit

Most of the controversies and ultranationalist in this sub are Greek.

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SE_prof@reddit

Said the Turk making controversial comments just a few lines below.

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Elmalukat@reddit

This sub is full of ultranationalist Greeks.

Never seen more annoying folks

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SE_prof@reddit

Leave then...

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Elmalukat@reddit

Yes, Yorgo as you order

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Lotofagos_@reddit

Do it, 90% of the content on here nowadays is ragebait posted by 30 day old nationalistic and propaganda accounts. They don't aim for friendly discussion or for any kind of positive exchange. The goal is to cause arguments and stir controversy.

I also barely engage on here anymore. This used to be a better community back in the day.

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Yavannia@reddit

The funny part is that it is done by a handful of very specific accounts that just post like 5 threads per day. It's not that hard to regulate those and yes I include the Greeks doing that. It's literally the same guys every day.

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d2mensions@reddit (OP)

No? I was curious and i couldn’t find something online. Google sais Sarajevo has 74 Ottoman era mosques, which seem a lot.

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SE_prof@reddit

Bosnia is a Muslim country. Why didn't you Google Xanthi and Komotini?

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d2mensions@reddit (OP)

Because Xanthi and Komotini are not capital cities? I asked for capital cities.

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SE_prof@reddit

And the question stays. Why would a predominantly Christian country have mosques in its capital? Also, exactly as many churches were converted to mosques in Turkey the same happened in Greece

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Elmalukat@reddit

Because Istanbul for example has hundreds of churches and Athens has a large Muslim population

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SE_prof@reddit

The grand majority of churches in Istanbul were converted immediately. The few that remained were used by the still largely Christian population of the city (Athens was never inhabited solely by Muslims in history). Most were still converted to mosques after 1922 or 1955. Of those that remained most were declared monuments of human heritage by UNESCO (and yet still some were converted to museums, concert halls (???), or mosques again).

Also, since the post is about capitals, how many Christian churches are in Ankara?

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Elmalukat@reddit

There are eleven active churches in Ankara. It is a simple google search

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SE_prof@reddit

There are no Greek orthodox churches in Ankara. There are a few Catholic churches built after 1920. Did you really Google?

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Elmalukat@reddit

So?

There are churches despite an almost non existent christian population.

Sunni, Shia or whatever, can you say the same for Athens and thousands of Muslims living there?

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Frankkavir@reddit

We detest Muslims in Greece, as do most in the western world

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Elmalukat@reddit

I don’t care what you think of Muslims or Christians. I am not a fan of religion.

What I pointed out is how hypocrite you are as a society

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SE_prof@reddit

https://share.google/tPk6TixfFuQbqEXhV

https://share.google/zMMcIERNL15jacbhx

Please spare me the Google search next time.

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Elmalukat@reddit

Those are not mosques Yorgo

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SE_prof@reddit

Still no orthodox churches in Ankara Ahmet

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pitogyros@reddit

Most churches in Turkey existed before Turks even set their foot in Anatolia

Most mosques in Greece ( and in Balkans ) they were

A) either churches forcefully converted into mosques

B)destroyed churches and mosques build on top of them.

They come violently , they left violently

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d2mensions@reddit (OP)

I was just curious which capital city has more ottoman mosques, its not that deep.

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N0stalgiaNightz@reddit

And Islamic victimhood/ glorification of Islamic conquest.

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Turkish_Teacher@reddit

Would you say the same under a post claiming the Ottomans had built nothing in the Balkans?

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SE_prof@reddit

I have said the same about posts trying to do the same thing with "questions" about Greece. Also, I love in a city that has ample Ottoman architecture, so I wouldn't say that. But why should mosques exist in Athens? For the Pakistani immigrants? The OP intentionally omits Xanthi and Komotini. Why?

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shiwonozomu_majochan@reddit

They should just demolish any remaining ones west of edirne and be done with it cuz this shit gets tiring

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throw-awewe-iy@reddit

0 I think. Not until Qatar built a massive one in Ljubljana. Why? Because it doesn't matter where the money comes from according to our corrupt mayor. All which matters is that there is enough bribe money.

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hubbabubbameqershi@reddit

I never understood building an Islamic religious building in a fully christian country. Why?

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vratiosevalter@reddit

The term 'fully Christian' is sociologically inaccurate for most modern European states, including Slovenia. If a significant number of tax-paying citizens and residents identify as Muslim, the state’s duty in a democracy is to facilitate their religious freedoms, regardless of the country's historical heritage.

However, the real issue isn't the building itself, but the source of funding. There is a vital distinction to be made here between community-driven projects (authentic needs of local citizens/residents who require a space for worship) and foreign soft power (projects funded by states like Qatar or Saudi Arabia) which often come with 'strings attached' regarding the type of ideology preached, potentially bypassing local community agency.

A country can respect its Christian roots while acknowledging it is no longer a monolith. The goal should be supporting local communities so they don't have to rely on controversial foreign donors

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throw-awewe-iy@reddit

Yes. Exactly.

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R4nder@reddit

Well said.

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More_Ad_5142@reddit

But it’s quite an architecturally beautiful mosque

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Hefty_Jaguar4305@reddit

the old mosque on the sunken island of Ada Kaleh.

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super_pasrelle@reddit

It has an eerie feeling

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alecorock@reddit

Fun fact. Most of the famous Mosques in Istanbul were designed by a Greek architect.

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Turkish_Teacher@reddit

Good post. It needs to be hammered in that it is hypocritical to claim Ottomans built nothing in your country when your government ran a cultural erasure campaign when they took over.

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N0stalgiaNightz@reddit

Cos we're sick of being told French, Spanish etc colonialism was evil and unforgivable but Ottomans were great.

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TurkOmbre@reddit

I'm also Turkish and I completely agree with you, but frankly, I don't care. Turkey remains the richest country culturally, militarily, and economically in this region. The end of the Ottoman period was a catastrophe for these Balkan (and Middle Eastern) countries; they experienced all sorts of instability. They ruined themselves by focusing on this Turkish hatred.

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Capable_Studio_6631@reddit

Yeah, almost as if more than half the population gave their life for freedom, gee I wonder how did the catastrophe occur. Regardless, most nations are doing much better now than they ever did or would do under Turkish rule.

All of the Balkan countries, with the exception of Serbia maybe, have been at peace for half a century now. Yet, who is in Syria at this moment still waging war? Who continues to fund strife between Azerbaijan and Armenia? Who is experiencing massive inflation? Who is surrounded with nothing but enemies? All your neighboring countries hate you.

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TurkOmbre@reddit

Yes, the fall of Yugoslavia, the corruption, the dictatorships, the economic and political crises are all because of the Turks. Everything is because of the Turks, and above all, never question the Balkan people themselves.

The Balkan people are the Japanese of the Mediterranean 😊

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Capable_Studio_6631@reddit

What? I never said that you dumbfuck, of course its not because of Turkey. But you have to understand that when you just come out of slavery you're not going to be a stable country.

Like I said, most countries gave so many people fighting you that it makes sense we would be destabilized and hungry to get back as much as we can.

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TurkOmbre@reddit

In my post I was talking about the Balkans of the last 50 years, and you're talking about the Ottoman period. The Balkans of the last 50 years were anything but stable; even the First World War broke out here (shortly after the end of the Ottoman period).

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Capable_Studio_6631@reddit

If you compare it to the past, it's been much more stable. Right now its downright a peaceful lake.

The only instability is within Serbia and Albania. And I guess Greece had a civil war 70 years ago.

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TurkOmbre@reddit

Greece was a dictatorship 50 years ago (and that dictatorship ended thanks to Turkey); after joining the European Union, its population plummeted, it experienced an economic crisis, and so on. If you consider Greece a sovereign and stable nation, then you have a problem.

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Capable_Studio_6631@reddit

All countries go through ebbs and highs. Do you want to get into the history of Greece and how and why it had to takes its first loans? Which eventually led to what happened in 2004.

I'm not saying the Balkans are a paradise, but they're certainly better than they would've been with Turkey.

Your minimum wage is twice as low as the one in Greece btw.

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Capable_Studio_6631@reddit

Edit: Dude was so mad he reported me to the mods :'D.

Never engage with a turkish nationalist ig.

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2xSC@reddit

I think when people complain about Ottomans not building anything they're talking about things that are actually useful and contribute to the development of a city/region. Things such as roads, factories, government buildings, etc.

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Turkish_Teacher@reddit

Baths, public kitchens, libraries, fountain, stuff like that?

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Capable_Studio_6631@reddit

Steals your wheat and then asks you to kiss their hand for feeding you bread that you could make yourself.

Ah yes, directly from their charitable hearts.

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Turkish_Teacher@reddit

Stop moving the goalposts. I never said Balkan people couldn't have survived without Ottomans. All I'm saying is that people are lying when they say Ottomans didn't build anything useful.

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Capable_Studio_6631@reddit

So what useful thing did you build exactly? Education is nice, I'll give you that. How many Rayah's got educated in those libraries that you build for yourselves?

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Turkish_Teacher@reddit

So what useful thing did you build exactly?

I just listed them off?

How many Rayah's got educated in those libraries that you build for yourselves?

Not many, probably. Education was a upper class thing just like any other place on earth.

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Capable_Studio_6631@reddit

"I just listed them off?" Baths, Kitchens, Libraries and Fountains. This is the legacy that you've left and you've deemed useful? Again, to whom?

People would have built it themselves if you weren't there lol. When someone says 'Something useful' they think of actual logistical infrastructure that elevates a country.

Tell me how a fountain will elevate me. Or a library that I cannot go into.

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Turkish_Teacher@reddit

Much more useful than a "governmental" building anyways which is nothing more than a glorified mansion in most cases

Do hospitals count?

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Ujemegaz@reddit

Fountains and libraries 🤣 you can't make this up.

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Turkish_Teacher@reddit

Not to your liking?

So we agree public baths and kitchens are useful?

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Ujemegaz@reddit

Hilarious. Can you name one fountain?

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Turkish_Teacher@reddit

https://youtu.be/kqye1kZ62VQ?si=KMJTw2hgv5UJ43Az

Here's a video on some

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chrstianelson@reddit

To add to the list; aqueducts, schools, public buildings, inns and caravanserais, clocktowers, bridges, tower houses, covered markets, castles and mauseloa.

People in this sub think the Ottomans didn't build anything in the Balkans because newly formed governments demolished most of them so very few buildings survived. Even ISIS didn't cause such widespread cultural destruction and erasure of the region's heritage as much as nationalist governments did in the Balkans.

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Vaisiamarrr@reddit

Why would people care for mosques when they are not muslim

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gushi1-@reddit

So can we get converted to Church’s?

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Complex_Shine_1113@reddit

Lots in Skopje. Considering its the capital with the longest time spent under the Ottoman Empire (aside from Ankara of course), and about 80% of the city was Muslim at the height of the empire. Skopje was also a much more prevalent and powerful city back in the day, bigger than Tirana and Athens combined, so lots of Ottoman structures were built in the area, and to this day are preserved.

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Itsgxl@reddit

Been there. It was sad, it was full of unrealized potential like stuck between Ottomans and communist and this weird blend came out that is macedonia.my great grandparents are from Manastir I went there with great hopes but left disappointed not because of people etc but because how desolate the whole thing looked. Like a remote Soviet town from the 90's but ohrid lake was amazing

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_BREVC_@reddit

Zagreb’s Ottoman era luckily lasted 0 years.

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Dazzling-Plan5323@reddit

Mislim da je to najbolji argument zasto nismo balkan

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TinyAsianMachine@reddit

Zagreb still feels very balkan, much more than Ljubljana.

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ilijadwa@reddit

I guess but most of the country was still ottoman at some point or another, it’s only really northwestern Croatia, istria and islands they didn’t conquer

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TurkOmbre@reddit

90 to 99% of mosques were destroyed after the end of the Ottoman era. Belgrade had around a hundred mosques during the Ottoman period. Athens had only about ten, but that's because it was a small city, almost a village.

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7elevenses@reddit

Belgrade was a very small town as well. There must have been many mosques, but 100 sounds like way too many for the size of the town, which was under 10k in 1800.

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TurkOmbre@reddit

If I'm not mistaken, Belgrade was one of the largest Ottoman cities at its peak (1600): 60,000-100,000 inhabitants. The population declined due to the Austro-Ottoman wars.

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Poglavnik_Majmuna01@reddit

Those estimates were based on travellers who greatly exaggerated the population of cities. Belgrade had a population of slightly above 10,000 which would still make it one of the largest towns in the entire Balkans.

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Ok-Classroom-8853@reddit

At the beginning of the 15th century, during the Serbian Despotate, the population of Belgrade was 50,000

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Poglavnik_Majmuna01@reddit

That is another over exaggeration not based on any legitimate statistic.

Such ridiculous estimates were rather common in the medieval period. For instance, it was stated that Dubrovnik had 40,000 inhabitants in the 15th century, contemporary historical research showed that at its peak there were 9000 inhabitants.

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7elevenses@reddit

Perhaps. Still, the numbers (both 100k people and 100 mosques) seem very large, the whole built-up area outside the fortress was maybe 50-80ha, 100 mosques would mean a mosque on every street corner. Perhaps that number includes mesjids and other religious buildings, or it refers to the modern area of Belgrade, which in the meantime absorbed many villages and towns around it.

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TurkOmbre@reddit

Yes, the number 100 also includes the mesdjid, and yes, there were mosques and mesdjid on every street corner.

Belgrade was an Ottoman and Muslim city

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Ok-Classroom-8853@reddit

Belgrade was the largest city in the Balkans after Istanbul.

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hubbabubbameqershi@reddit

They didn't need them anymore. Their Muslim population is close to 0, they didn't even asked for them fo be built. But you are right, they wrre all destroyed.

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TurkOmbre@reddit

The Muslims were forced to leave or they were killed. Your reasoning is therefore backwards; it's not because there are zero Muslims today that there are no more mosques, it's because there was a policy of de-Islamization.

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ripper8244@reddit

And how did those muslim reach Belgrade?

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TurkOmbre@reddit

the conquest, exactly like the Serbs (who came from Poland) who conquered the Balkans

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ripper8244@reddit

So they decolonised. Seems fair.

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TurkOmbre@reddit

Yes, but those who decolonized also came from elsewhere; Serbia was Latin (close to Romania). If the Romanians conquer Serbia today, that too is, technically speaking, a decolonization. The Serbs conquered the Balkans in the Middle Ages (like the Ottomans). I get the impression that you are more sensitive to the idea of decolonization when the colonizer is Muslim; when they are Christian, it leaves you indifferent.

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ripper8244@reddit

Pretty sure Serbs were staying longer there than you guys and not every one came from Poland as you claim.

I get the impression that you are more sensitive to the idea of decolonization when the colonizer is Muslim; when they are Christian, it leaves you indifferent.

And I get the feeling that you want to be a victim because of a failed conquest and colonisation.

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TurkOmbre@reddit

We decolonized the Balkans, but the Slavs of the Balkans still haven't decolonized them. Why aren't you concerned about that? Yes, they arrived before the Turks, but that doesn't change anything; they're not local either. I get the impression you want to set a deadline to excuse colonization.

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ripper8244@reddit

You got decolonised, you didn't decolonise shit yourselves. It happened by force by both sides. Don't act like you didn't expell your armenians or greeks from what you call Turkey today(a thing that you also conquered). And the greeks + bulgarians did the same. Serbs are pretty native to the land there and have been there for centuries, same as most balkan people. Fact that they got influenced by slavinisation or ortodox church does not mean they "colonised it".

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TurkOmbre@reddit

The Turks of Macedonia have also been there for centuries: 700 years. If these Turks are not native, then neither were the Slavs in 1350 when the Turks entered the Balkans.

I feel like I'm talking to a limited child; you're having trouble understanding the logic, but you're probably doing it on purpose to justify certain forms of Christian colonization.

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ripper8244@reddit

then neither were the Slavs in 1350 when the Turks entered the Balkans.

Slavs entered the balkans in 1350? I am pretty sure some identeties are older than your religion there. But keep going. What other made up history can you come up with?

I feel like I'm talking to a limited child; you're having trouble understanding the logic, but you're probably doing it on purpose to justify certain forms of Christian colonization.

Nah, I just like shitting on agressors that have no guilt over what they did and pretend everything bad happening after is underserved.

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TurkOmbre@reddit

When the Ottomans entered the Balkans, the Slavs had been there for 600 years. And today, the Turks have been in the Balkans for 750 years, but you don't consider the Turks native, while you consider the Slavs of 1350 native, even though they had been there for 600 years. You are clearly racist and ideologically driven, and you dare to talk about history. Unbelievable.

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ripper8244@reddit

Clearly I am racist for rooting against invaders.

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TurkOmbre@reddit

You select and condemn some invasions and justify others as good and justified: racist

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ripper8244@reddit

And you justify invasions.

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BGD_TDOT@reddit

100 is not possible. The population of Belgrade in 1816 (one year prior to Second Serbian Uprising) was no more than 20k, the population in 1870 (just prior to final Turkish-Serbian war) was between 25k-30k. Regardless of when Ottoman architecture started coming down neither of those populations is large enough for 100 mosques especially considering Muslims would not have made up the majority of the city on either of those times. I can't imagine Belgrade ever had more than 20-30 mosques at any given time.

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Additional-Gur7915@reddit

You are aware than in 1830, Serbia deported or killed all Muslims and ethnically cleansed Albanians, which were in considerate number? I don't think the population after 1830 was larger than before.

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TurkOmbre@reddit

The majority of Belgrade's population was Muslim, and at its peak, the city had between 60,000 and 100,000 inhabitants (around 1600). One hundred mosques is not at all shocking; it's actually quite few.

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hubbabubbameqershi@reddit

Holy shit, for real? I thought they didn't have Muslims. What happened to them? Were they turks or different kinds of Muslims?

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Additional-Gur7915@reddit

Guess.

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TurkOmbre@reddit

mostly Turks and Slavs, some Muslim Albanians and muslim Hungarians

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Elmalukat@reddit

A village where most of the native population was Albanian speakers.

Now they have an ugly ass capital.

Thessaloniki is 10* times better

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nomemory@reddit

I see a failed opportunity to convert them to churches...

ps: I just wanted to make the joke. Don't take it personally.

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MartinBP@reddit

In Sofia the Black Mosque was converted to the current St. Sedmochislenitsi Church (it was also a prison and warehouse before that). The St. Sophia Church was also converted to a mosque at one point and then converted to a church again after liberation. The archeological museum is also situated in a former mosque.

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Sulo1719@reddit

Would have been 100% better

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Economy-Natural-6835@reddit

Not the capital but the ottomans build one in Pécs (South-west Hungary) but we turned it into a church.

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Final_Sundae4254@reddit

Ottoman era = built by force.

Athens and Greece is 98% Orthodox Christians,that explains why it has 0.

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TurkOmbre@reddit

During the Ottoman period, Greece was not 98% Christian. There were 20-25% Muslims, spread throughout the territory of modern-day Greece.

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Final_Sundae4254@reddit

They were settlers,not a native population.

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Additional-Gur7915@reddit

There was a large Albanian and Greek Muslim population in Greece, as well as Serbia.

They were no settlers. They were native. They were killed or deported because they had a different religion.

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petar_is_amazing@reddit

Not a historian but weren’t there some converts? Like there were favorable tax/social implications for converts

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TurkOmbre@reddit

If we look at these questions, we must also consider the Christianization of medieval Greece, where Christian authorities no longer allowed the practice of other religions, which led to the complete conversion of the inhabitants.

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Additional-Gur7915@reddit

I had a Greek colleague. I tell him "we are the same people, except for religion" (Albanian and Greek) and he says "we are not the same, why did you become Muslim"?

I reply with "why did you become Christian"? He is stunned "what do you mean"?

Somehow, it never occurs to them that Christianity was forced just like Islam.

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Dazzling-Plan5323@reddit

Go back where you came from

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TurkOmbre@reddit

We are on our land

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Dazzling-Plan5323@reddit

Who we and what our?

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TurkOmbre@reddit

Cyprus, Thrace, Anatolie, Crimea, Caucasus, Central Asia, Siberia, Turkmenelia = our lands

Your land is Greece

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Capable_Studio_6631@reddit

Sorry Ombre, it appears you're confusing Turkic people with Turks. Your empire was so mixed at some point that most of your population was made up of foreigners.

Most "Turks" in Turkey today have Anatolian and Greek admixture.

You are not the same as someone from Turkmenistan or Kazakhstan for example.

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Dazzling-Plan5323@reddit

Yes, i remeber, when i was on crimea, every pebble on the beach had written "ottoman's property" on itself.

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hubbabubbameqershi@reddit

Even Greek Muslims, Greece didn't exist as a country and we are talking about the current borders of Greece.

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TurkOmbre@reddit

Greece became Ottoman at the end of the Middle Ages, and in historiography, those who settled there during the Middle Ages are considered to be of native origin. Ultimately, only a few centuries separated the Turkification of the Balkans from the Turkification of Anatolia. Furthermore, the majority of Muslims in Greece were not Turks but Albanians, Slavs, Sephardim, and Greeks: 60%.

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LastHomeros@reddit

And Turkey is like 99% Muslim so they should convert all the existing churches (around 500) into mosque then

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khrushchevka2310@reddit

Yeah thats not exactly the same thing since one was a conqueror and the other was the subject that was Christian long before turks came.Not that many christians live anymore in turkey today anyway.Even the protected minority in Istanbul was destroyed by turks in the 50s, 60s.

Which by they way they did convert to mosques, pretty much all the important churches in modern turkey are mosques today including THE most important one.

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TurkOmbre@reddit

The Greeks were also conquerors; you only have to go back in time to see that.

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khrushchevka2310@reddit

Ancient greece?Yes they were i guess.I don't expect to worship Zeus in Tehran.

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TurkOmbre@reddit

Not only Iran, also Greece was not originally Hellenic. they conquered South Balkans and Islands

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khrushchevka2310@reddit

Yes indeed greeks weren't even in modern greece afterall they came from finland, thats why we have similar flags./s

That justifies the complete elimination of greek minority in turkey in the 1960s.Or that hagia Sophia was turned into a mosque for example. But hey greece doesn't have a mosque from 1700s.

And also forget the fact that athens was a village until it became a capital in the 1800s.

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TurkOmbre@reddit

You're deliberately mixing things up because Greece did purge the Turks from Greece and pursued an absolutely radical de-Islamization policy. But that's another topic.

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khrushchevka2310@reddit

Yeah they did and also agree with turkey to not touch the minorities in Thrace and the minorities in Istanbul and the two aegean islands.

But thats another topic.Lets talk about how Alexander the great destroyed Persepolis thus everything that turks did was justified.

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TurkOmbre@reddit

The Orthodox religion committed massacres in Anatolia and burned thousands of ancient books.

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khrushchevka2310@reddit

You talking like this didn't affect greeks

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MajinaiHanashi@reddit

Why are you even bothering? You can see the seething in its comments, lol.

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Ujemegaz@reddit

Sometimes i think that Turks feed on your tears.

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khrushchevka2310@reddit

I don't live my life thinking about turkey , but when someone with a Denmark flair trying to make equal between oppressor and oppressed is just cringe. "Same shit bruh"

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SOHONEYSAME@reddit

(as they should).

anyone that "complains" when a sovereign country changes purposes of buildings (or even "destroys" them), domestically, should be ridiculed/ignored.

this goes both ways.

Turkey is a Muslim country & it's 100% its right to change building to reflect this.

Balkans (most, anyway) r NOT Muslim so, again, it is also their right.

simple.

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FancyDictator@reddit

You sound like your stretch in formal education was cut short, dropped school around 5th grade

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SOHONEYSAME@reddit

stop coping, it's embarrassing.🧂🧂

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FancyDictator@reddit

I am not the one supporting vandalism and cultural genocide against historical heritage

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Mguener@reddit

Here are the churches in Turkey, in total there are over 1388

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Jediuzzaman@reddit

That's just nationalist propaganda.

Ottomans have had "Vaqıf/Foundation" system, an inheritence mechanism for the wealthy elites. To be counted elligible, elites and rulers of the age, built mosques, bridges, soup kitchens and schools and transferred their wealth into these infrustructures. Put their relatives in charge of the foundations and they secured huge wealths away from the confiscations and enjoyed tax exemptions. This is why almost all the Balkans was dotted with such buildings because all elites were in rush to exploit this system before they themselves got dismissed from the seat of power and wealth. Whereever you see an Ottoman building it means there were a guy in the vicinity, managed to rise in the ranks of Ottoman empire and made a centuries-lasting fortune for his relatives.

Besides that, modern day Greece have had more than 20% of the population as Muslims and this rate was not good for the Ottoman elites since they were milking non-Muslims with heavy taxes in exchange with the military exemption bonus.

Overall, to say Ottoman era= Built by force is complete nonsense and contradicting the realities of those ages.

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Bluejay1889@reddit

None of the pre-Christian pagan temples survived in Europe.

Christian era = built by force.

You can be 98% Christian, but still can have mosques, jewish temples, or buddhist temples for those who want to pray or visiting cities.

It's funny how Greeks believe Christianity spread across Europe or Latin America.

Please stop whining when Turks converted Hagia Sophia then. It's their country. Their rule.

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Final_Sundae4254@reddit

You know very well that Constantinople (which is where Hagia Sophia is located) is an ancient Greek city, (heck,it's even in the name City of Constantine), also taken by force from the Turks. It's a historic fact.

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TurkOmbre@reddit

The Greeks didn't just fall from the sky into the southern Balkans. They were originally a warlike Indo-European people who came from the north (Ukraine). When the Greeks conquered the Thracians (Istanbul), it was okay, but when the Turks did, it was wrong. People like you are a danger to world peace; you sow hatred between peoples.

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bubimir13@reddit

Zagreb: "What is an Ottoman era what?"

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Shqiptar89@reddit

Prishtina has one from the 15th century.

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d2mensions@reddit (OP)

Maybe people think Albanai being muslim majority means it preserved islamic buildings better better, but other cities in Albania like Durrës, Vlora and Korça have only Ottoman era mosque left.

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dwartbg9@reddit

Ottoman era mosque ≠ ALL mosques in the city.

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Elmalukat@reddit

He is talking about the number of destroyed mosques from the ottomans times. They are in hundreds

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d2mensions@reddit (OP)

i never said that…

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True-Blacksmith4235@reddit

Yeah, I was thinking the same lol.

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Citaku357@reddit

You forgot to mention Kosova, many Ottoman mosque most notable one is the Sinan Pasha Mosque in Prizren.

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Formal-Can-4168@reddit

There are already too many mosques. In my city alone, \~30k, there are like 8

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Cool_Guy_Chazz@reddit

Athens has Ottoman era mosques, but they are museums now. And the the have an opporeting mosque but it a modern building.

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Aromatic-Studio-137@reddit

Probably former ottoman teritorries are the one that feel balkan.

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Barbak86@reddit

Pristina has 9 original Ottoman Mosques out of 14 it used to have. A few are gone forever (they were destroyed in order to modernize the city), a few have been re-built with new plans where the old ones stood, after being damaged during the last war.

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Adept-One-4632@reddit

Since ours was never actualy ruled by the ottomans, we don't have mosques built from that era.

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e2g3@reddit

Forgetting Bosnia, Kosovo and Macedonia completely

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riquelm@reddit

On top of my head, Podgorica has at least one, possibly two

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Cute_Establishment_4@reddit

There is no more large Muslim population in most places, neither large Christian population in Turkiye, though Christian and Jewish remnants are much more common in Turkiye, yet left uncared and decaying but not destroyed, even by locals, just treasure hunters ruining places.

We can say that there is more active hatred against Islamic and Ottoman stuff in Balkans and EU, where it became part of independence policy and motive. You can still observe this in comments.

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AlpineSkiFanatic@reddit

I mean, of course there is hatred against Islamic and Ottoman remnants when it is a product of forceful colonization and war against the native population.

We celebrate Croatian people who fought against the Ottoman attack as heroes, the most famous one being Nikola Šubić Zrinski, who has a very famous opera dedicated to him.

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Fog_Smuggler@reddit

How the fuck Tirana has only one Ottoman mosque left? Enver?

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hubbabubbameqershi@reddit

Because Tirana was very small during Ottoman times. Basically a village.

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TurkOmbre@reddit

Because it was a small town, and the majority of Balkan towns were predominantly Muslim. Tirana, Belgrade, and Sofia had similar percentages of Muslims.

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driftstyle28@reddit

Enver Hoxha's war on religion and historic monuments.

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Suitable-Decision-26@reddit

We have 3. One is active, one close by is actually the Archaeology museum. And the other is a church. It was abandoned even befire the Ottomans left. Iy was a prison at one point and then. it was reconstructed.

There used to be 20ish. Most straight up dynamite in the early years ofter the Russo-Turkish wars of 1878.

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AbbreviationsOk1999@reddit

Skopje has dozens.
Mustafa Pasha and Sultan Murat are nice ones and well kept.

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ayayayamaria@reddit

Athens has zero

Athens has 2 Ottoman mosques buildings left but none of them functioning as active mosques.

Those are two entirely different things

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ThingCandid9553@reddit

gif

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SOHONEYSAME@reddit

expected.

there's a Muslim building here, but it's a "museum"

(otherwise, there's no Muslims).

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Hefty_Jaguar4305@reddit

In constanta dobrogea romanya, there is the Hünkar mosque from ottoman era.

https://miras.gov.ro/1/en/harta-interactiva/geamii/geamia-hunkar-constanta/

not to confuse with carol 1 mosque.

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frn8@reddit

In Greece Ottoman mosques become more prominent the more north you are. The koursoum mosque in Trikala in central Greece is the southernmost one I can think of. koursoum mosques, trikala, greece

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Zealousideal_Low9994@reddit

There's at least one big one in Bitola, you can hear the call to prayer everywhere in the city in the mornings.

It's from 1506

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishak_%C3%87elebi_Mosque

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