Israel’s open-ended wars have eroded its security
Posted by Naurgul@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 123 comments
Binyamin Netanyahu has brought about a big shift in its defence doctrine
Since the attacks of October 7th 2023 Israel has fought devastating and prolonged campaigns in Gaza, Lebanon and Iran. It has abandoned a long-standing national-security doctrine favouring short decisive wars. Instead, Israel has blundered, wreaking havoc and inflicting appalling suffering while sapping its own resources and damaging crucial alliances.
Mr Trump is no peacenik. Nevertheless, he has tired of the open-endedness of Israel’s recent wars and the disruption they have caused. Arguably, the American president recognises what Israel—both its government and many of its citizens—refuses to acknowledge: that Israel’s current wars are failures. “They dragged on without a clear diplomatic purpose or outcome,” says Jeremy Issacharoff, a former Israeli ambassador who has also been in charge of strategic affairs at the foreign ministry. “The ceasefires are a positive development, but having them dictated to us by America harms Israel’s deterrence and makes it a client state.”
In Gaza and Lebanon Israel launched massive air strikes and ground campaigns in response to attacks by Hamas, militants in Gaza, and Hizbullah. It did huge damage to both groups and killed their leaders. But it also killed tens of thousands of civilians, levelling much of Gaza and destroying entire towns and villages in Lebanon. In both places ceasefires were agreed but then collapsed. Israel captured swathes of territory as “security zones”, to be held indefinitely. But Hamas and Hizbullah, though weakened, remained entrenched. Mr Netanyahu promised “total victory” but instead was forced by Mr Trump to end (or at least pause) Israel’s campaigns without removing the threat on its borders.
Likewise, after the end of the war against Iran last June the Israeli prime minister assured his people that the “existential threats” of Iran’s nuclear programme and ballistic missiles had been “removed” in “a historic victory which will stand for generations”. Instead, eight months later, Israel was at war with Iran again. This time Mr Netanyahu added another war aim, to “crush the regime in Iran” and prepare the ground for an uprising by the Iranian people. Instead, the regime in Tehran persists and Mr Trump is now intent on reaching a deal with it.
The old doctrine’s essence was that a tiny country with a small population, in a hostile region, could not afford to frequently wage long wars. It needed to wield overwhelming military power to deter its enemies, to be capable of detecting when they were planning an attack and to be able to act quickly, ideally pre-emptively, to secure victory in its enemies’ territory. And, importantly, Israel could not rely only on its army alone, wrote Ben-Gurion: “a foreign-policy of peace” was, he wrote. a “fundamental component of security”. Israel needed alliances and international legitimacy to secure its future.
Israel’s current leaders have abandoned many of those principles. Hundreds of thousands of reservists have spent many months fighting in Gaza and Lebanon and enforcing Israel’s increasingly brutal occupation of the West Bank. The devastation of Gaza, where Israel has killed over 70,000 people and where the population was brought close to starvation, has greatly eroded Israel’s international legitimacy and support even among its traditional allies.
And neither Israel’s leaders nor its people seem to have learnt anything from Gaza. Israel has resorted to similar tactics in Lebanon, uprooting civilians and destroying villages, despite Israel’s generals admitting that their campaign would not be sufficient to disarm Hizbullah or even prevent it from firing missiles.
“The Israeli public doesn’t want to hear now that you can’t just destroy Hamas or Hizbullah, or topple the regime in a massive country like Iran,” says Dan Meridor, a former minister from Mr Netanyahu’s Likud party who in 2006 had the task of revising Israel’s national-security doctrine. “They want to hear that the IDF is omnipotent. But as long as the aims are unrealistic and the only solutions are solely military, we’re bound to fail.”
You can read a copy of the full article here, in case you need it for whatever reason.
See also:
- Israeli army reservist kills 2 Palestinians, including a 14-year-old, in the occupied West Bank (Associated Press)
- US turns to Ukrainian counter-drone tech after Iran attacks, sources say (Reuters)
- Allies are done waiting for America to grow up • From gold reserves to arms contracts, Europe is systematically reducing its exposure to US capriciousness. (Lowy Institute)
ChefCurryYumYum@reddit
My biggest hope is that American voters turn on Israel enough that we actually stop their aid and then lets see how it goes with them and their regional security.
They have sowed a lot of pain, they will reap it in the end.
squirrelnight1@reddit
At this point it seems inevitable that they will unless American democracy is circumvented entirely.
Israel is despised by both leftwing and rightwing voters in the US now. Those voters will vote for anti-israel or anti-zionist leaders in due time, which means that when the old guard of both parties step down, there will be no new allies of Israel in to replace them.
loggy_sci@reddit
When Europeans talk about domestic U.S. politics it is always a treat.
blobofhope@reddit
Watching it during Trump’s first campaign and election was the best-bad telenovela. The sequel is a crime to humanity..
ThatHeckinFox@reddit
It already is. You have one party with two masks.
Redditthedog@reddit
Netanyahu has spent his entire political career planning for this. He ended all economic aid from the US in 1996 and redesigned Israel’s economy to make other countries need them not vice versa in tech like Taiwan with Chips, militarily it is the 7th largest exporter of arms with the US MOU basically existing Israel to not build its own Fighter Jet industry to compete with America
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Great talking point. Shame it’s just true. Israel needs the US and Europe. The opposite isn’t true…
Ill_Chicken550@reddit
I hate being a doomer but I doubt voters in my country can clear out pro-israel and zionist candidates. Those candidates can easily get donations from pro-israel PACS and cruise through election/re-election. Plus what's stopping the old guard of the GOP and the Democrats from grooming someone that's similar to them for the future?
However, a part of me is hopeful that most people are starting to realize how much sway they have in our government/foreign policy and look further into who they vote for.
BendicantMias@reddit
Israel may be disliked, but that doesn't mean opposing them is a core issue of many voters. Candidates can simply campaign on other issues that do actually matter to voters more, and then support Israel once in office. I doubt most people would even turn against them if they deliver on their other promises.
Redditthedog@reddit
Israel is the 7th larger exporter of Arms and just signed a multi billion dollar deal with India. Israeli self sufficiency directly correlates to American unpopularity in that Bibi planned since the 90s to make an Israel that doesn’t need to give a crap what the average American thinks
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
That is absurd. Israel doesn’t make planes or ships or bombs. Israel desperately needs the weapons the US and Germany lavishes on it.
blobofhope@reddit
Oh wow, are we saying that attacking people everywhere creates enemies? It isn’t as if violence attracts violence isn’t a well known fact…
Well yes, that is indeed a possible consequence.
I’d say this is not going according to plan.
Future-Excuse6167@reddit
Israel realized that regularly killing people makes enemies of the survivors (friends and family) so they decided they have to kill everyone to stop the cycle. Some Israelis consider all Palestinian children to be future terrorrsts.
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
Did killing Nazis make enemies of the survivors?
greyetch@reddit
The majority believe this. 64% according to The Hebrew University of Jerusalem.
This is an incredibly sick and sadistic society.
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/64-of-israelis-believe-there-are-no-innocents-in-gaza-poll/3594355
blobofhope@reddit
This is truly sickening. I somehow end up having some empathy for all the Israeli kids who grow up with that much hate drilled in their heads, and seem predetermined to having violence in their hearts.
An 8 month old baby knows the difference between good or bad and has a sense of solidarity, the capacity we have when growing up to forget all morals and focus on victimhood and hate instead always baffles me.
Sometimes I wonder if it is like a bubble and once the justice system gets to do its job, and these crazy hate propagators are stopped, the bubble will pop and people will be able to see clearly what they have been saying and doing for the horror it is. In my head it is a bit like in a movie, all of a sudden fumes of hate and violence leave their bodies and all of a sudden they feel lighter, they love stronger and live freer…. And the world regains colours…
While life isn’t a simple happy ending movie, I do hope for the day where kids in that area will play together and become friends, I don’t know if we will still be alive for it, but anything we can do to make it happen is a great step towards a future worth building. One where Palestinian children go to the beach to play after a school day, one where they come home to four walls, a kitchen and a healthy meal, one where their games are joyous and free from trauma. One where their grand-parents can hold their hands and they instantly feel safe and strong, one where they get to fall asleep to bed time stories, not the sound of bombs..
I know all of this is extremely cliché, apologies this was my romantic moment of hoping for good, and seeing how extreme violence can be profoundly trivialised here in some comments I thought I would share it just in case someone else needed to remember that humans are born good and that is all the hope we need.
meister2983@reddit
That is not their position at all. Their position is that peace is impossible.
Results in similar policies, but it's a very different position fundamentally
blobofhope@reddit
I would even say their position is that they are fighting for peace, at all cost (to others).
meister2983@reddit
I disagree there. The IDF recognizes they don't have the ability to achieve actually peace (thinks like population transfer aren't acceptable anymore), so it's more of a "mow the grass" doctrine now.
blobofhope@reddit
I can’t reuse this expression right now although they love it, it is too horrible for me as I digest. This said, I don’t know, what is happening right now for me is different. Although they might now be reaching the limit of it, Gaza, their discourses on the great Israel, the idea that babies or children are future terrorists, the systematic provocations and disproportionate answers to attacks. This was never really what this expression refers to, also I think they were hoping/trying to do one “big push” at once now before the next election and gain as much as possible regardless of consequences.
But officially I would say their position is still that they are fighting for (their) peace regardless of the consequences (still to others)…
meister2983@reddit
Yah, bad idea
Downsides of free speech in a society and some poor political coalitions. Core leadership isn't saying this.
How's that negative? That's a positive from the perspective of the IDF as maximizes deterrence.
Agree with you on one big push but they are considering the consequences. At the moment, they are approximately zero which is why they are pushing so hard.
They are maximizing their own security, not fighting for peace.
And yes, countries value their own citizens more than outsiders. That's how countries work
blobofhope@reddit
Are we talking about what they actually are doing or what they say they are doing?
meister2983@reddit
You tell me?
I mean what would an amoral Israel with a sole goal to wipe out Hamas be doing? I think mostly similar things, with a few details different.
blobofhope@reddit
Assuming, maybe wrongly that you meant what would a moral Israel do..?
Support the Palestinian authority to work together? Admit to, respect and enforce the borders? Ensure the Palestinian population in Gaza can live safely without fear of hunger or lack of hospitals? Work with the international justice system and agencies to arrest and trial all criminals, be them Hamas or Israeli? Not install a state of apartheid, encourage all peace efforts instead of provocations? Not facilitating the funding of Hamas? ……..
meister2983@reddit
No, I said amoral Israel. They have one goal and don't care about the downsides -- I want to understand how to achieve it.
They already do this to some degree. But they aren't allies with the PA with much misalignment.
In what way? World complained when it shot a bunch of people trying to storm the Gaza one.
How? They aren't there.
How does this give it more security and how does is Israel supposed to arrest militants in Gaza without invading it?
Tried for years. Didn't work
Tried. This violates your "live safely without fear of hunger.." issue.
Why? Settlements add pressure and Apartheid is the natural consequences of settlements. Note that there's less violence in the areas with settlements, so I don't see why this is misaligned from fighting Hamas. (strictly speaking, evacuating settlements led to Hamas taking over Gaza..)
blobofhope@reddit
Oh but we already know what an amoral Israel would do… it is happening.
Oh now you want to end all Palestinian militantism? So not Hamas really? Well that’s a lot clearer.
Stop killing Palestinians, respect the borders, jails Israeli colons and give their houses back, then let international justice and investigations do their job and let humanitarian help in.
That would be a good start, but let us be clear you have no right to want to end Palestinian militantism, Palestinians have a right to live safely, and to defend themselves.
The rest you answer is overall either blatantly untrue or of written in very bad faith so no point carrying on there as you seem programmed to answer anything regardless of truth, legality or human decency.
ChillAhriman@reddit
So what you're saying is that Israelies need to watch Attack on Titan. >!Nevermind, they wouldn't get it.!<
Evening_Grass_8073@reddit
Even if they weren't all deluded they'd still mostly think it's poorly written. >!The ending basically reads as the Eldians saying "Why can't we all just get along?" except completely unironically (and it somehow works against their Nazi-esque persecutors against all logic). And then the epilogue makes it all completely for naught by exerting the very cheap argument that the cycle of violence is endless even if peace lasts for a relatively long amount of time.!<
ChillAhriman@reddit
I don't think that's the correct interpretation. >!There is going to be conflict and violence in human societies, whatever human society happens to be. One of the characters (I think it was Armin?) puts it quite clearly: It doesn't matter if you kill [all the people outside the walls/inside the walls], we will still have some other war some day - the only thing you have achieved is making humanity smaller. It may be impossible to end all wars forever, but we can seek a peaceful solution to the one we have here, today.!< I think that's a very realistic message, and still one that pushes people to pursue the best possible world within their reach.
Future-Excuse6167@reddit
Over the wall, across the water... it's all the same.
RisingDeadMan0@reddit
lol, i mean i never finished the last few episodes i wasnt keen on it, but right at the end its explained, they would probably end up with genocide is good, we are doing genocide what about it...
BendicantMias@reddit
Some might assume you're exaggerating here but no, that's literally what they say - https://decensorednews.substack.com/p/israeli-blockade-activist-sofia-emuna-destroy-gaza-offspring
nanoman92@reddit
"“Oh please, Everyone’s always on about the children. I already tried leaving them alive, but all they do is grow up under my rule or dedicate their pathetic lives to revenge, usually both. Really killing them is a kindness, I can retract that kindness if you wish, but then who’s the villain?"
(The quote is by Freezer from TFS's take on Dragon Ball)
NotActuallyIraqi@reddit
And yet they get bent out of shape if a Palestinian hates Israelis. Israelis teach their children to hate Arabs, and they grow up and become soldiers to fight Arabs.
yeltsin98@reddit
Almost no Israelis seem to realise this. They attribute every terrorist attack to blind antisemitism. Really, it’s like they’re allergic to context, and the results are described in the article.
Yesterday I made the mistake of watching a Corey Gil-Schuster video, asking Palestinians what they planned to do with all the Israelis if they achieved their goal of a Palestinian state with 1948 borders. There were some guys who said they would “kick them all out”, and Corey asked, “What, even me? But we’ve been speaking for an hour! We’re Facebook friends!” Then one of the guys said he had just been walking when a soldier started beating him up out of nowhere. Wanton intimidation and violence are a daily if not weekly occurrence for so many Palestinians, to water the phrase down as much as possible.
Anyway, the comments were basically full of Israelis who saw all the Palestinian responses as proof of blind hatred. None of the experiences faced by Palestinians at the hands of Israelis were addressed. Best of luck with that national security of yours, guys.
blobofhope@reddit
Generations of hate, apathy and reframing… my hope is mainly with the justice systems being able to step in. It won’t work for all as the level of brainwashing is huge, but I hope that putting words on reality and clear labels put on actions will help clear the waters, violence is trivialised to unbelievable points. People equate a rock thrown by a child who is scared and bombs destroying an entire building. In their mind violence is violence, there is no more truth to reality. I think reality is so bad and so hard that we can fully fathom it, and if it is your friends, children or family enacting it it must be almost impossible not to rationalise it in some way at least…
But yes, for as long as they deploy humongous amounts of violence in hopes of peace the whole region, if not beyond, is doomed by the thoughts and ambitions of a few crazy people.
lol_alex@reddit
They hit every kid on the playground and are now surprised that the bigger kids want to stomp their face in a puddle.
And the indulgent grandfather who took them to play there is showing signs of being tired of all the crap.
blobofhope@reddit
Oh I needed to read the second part to understand who was who 😕
BlinkDodge@reddit
The minute Israel genocided its way into existence sunk that ship before it even hit the dry dock. The state of Israel is the realization of an ethno-colonial project in a region of the world were people still kill each other feuds started centuries ago.
blobofhope@reddit
And every time they directly or indirectly pushed peace away since their creation.
latswipe@reddit
this is only a problem if you ever stop massacring and pushing the line forward. Thankfully war is a racket
meister2983@reddit
Article isn't saying that at all. It's saying the cost is to international standing. The attacked enemies will be enemies regardless
The_Aim_Was_Song@reddit
Neither Hamas nor Hezbollah have ever had difficulty recruiting; Their ability to successfully kill Israelis has always been bottlenecked by their capacity to do so. That capacity has certainly been reduced drastically over the last two years. What's far less certain is whether the same can be said of the regional power-projection capacity of the regime in Iran.
From Israel's vantage point, their immediate security situation has improved drastically compared to three years ago, while their international relations have deteriorated.
But one can't expect people to, y'know, RTFA — let alone avoid basing their entire assessment on wishful thinking
meister2983@reddit
Yeah I love this sub. Getting downvoted for actually reading the article.
exegenes1s@reddit
The author here loses all legitimacy when they insinuate that Israel leveled Gaza to get Hamas and the civilian casualties were not intentional. They also miss the very obvious tradeoff Israel is making, it's intentionally trading its security in the pursuit of land and regional dominance.
meister2983@reddit
Huh? Regional dominance gives it more security. The trade-off is direct security from dominating its enemies vs. indirect security from international relations with would-be allies.
exegenes1s@reddit
No it would be safer with allies who aren't incentivized to attack. When it invades Lebanon, it's trading security for land. By pulverizing Gaza it rallied the entire middle east population to hate it, but it took land. Hamas was never a real threat to them in the first place.
meister2983@reddit
What allies are incentivized to attack? I don't follow this at all.
I'm confused how Israel is losing security by suppressing a paramilitary that is firing rockets at it.
??? The Middle East population already hated it; nothing changed there.
However, now it solidly has Hamas cornered, increasing security.
da fuq? Do you have amnesia?
mahdijouni98@reddit
He means would-be allies in its vicinity if they didn't attach everybody and publicly announce they want to take their land.
They've tried many many times and they still aren't suppressed, at some point you have to realise your methods are not working. Resistance came as a result of Israel's invasion in the name of security so it brought about those missiles. The natural result of invasion is resistance and that's where these missiles came from.
The Middle East started hating them when they arrived and cleaned hundreds of thousands of their brethren from their homes. A lot changed there. Read history.
Yes Hamas vs the amount of power Israel has, it's a stick vs a machine gun. Can Hamas level cities?
meister2983@reddit
What would-be allies are you referring to? I can't think of any country around Israel that would be an ally in some counter-factual that Israel just let itself get hit by missiles after Oct 7 and 8 by Hezbollah and Hamas.
They (Hamas and Hezbollah) are very suppressed relative to Oct 6; what are you talking about?
What are you exactly proposing? As you would know, Israel left Lebanon in 2000. That only resulted in Hezbollah getting stronger. This is also true (to a lesser degree) with Gaza in 2005.
So as far as I can tell, evidence is that mass bombing/invasion reduces power of the enemy, while conciliatory actions does the exact opposite.
I am fully aware of that. Ain't fixable at this point, so you are only proving my point.
More like a rifle vs. a machine gun. Hamas still managed to kill 1900+ people; that's an actual threat.
And whether Israel can retaliate is kinda irrelevant to whether Hamas is a threat. Hamas is so scary because it fails to act as a rational actor that cares about its own survival. It's suicidal troops have such behavior as well at the individual level.
Lazy_Membership1849@reddit
and did Israel been funding Hamas to keep Palestine divided?
HockeyHocki@reddit
Are you guys working off a copy paste Google doc for your talking points or what, every time its this same shite take. Israel did not fund hamas, why dont you try reading your own link
Lazy_Membership1849@reddit
Here another one https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-to-hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-palestinians-divided-583082
HockeyHocki@reddit
What is this so hard for you to understand
Israel facilitated the transfer of funds from a third parties to Hamas They did not 'fund' Hamas anymore than your ATM funds you.
Lazy_Membership1849@reddit
And he said to keep Palestine divided
He even have security escorts on Qatari who carried suitcases of hard untraceable cash to Gaza strip and give to Hamas
And he even said to his party in 2019 that you should keep finding Hamas to keep Palestine divided
HockeyHocki@reddit
Yes Israel allowed 3rd parties to fund Hamas in order to keep Palestine divided
Israel themselves didn't fund Hamas
Lazy_Membership1849@reddit
But they did it
So technically they funding it and not all funding is directly as even criminals use third party to funding it
HockeyHocki@reddit
not being smart but are you ESL? To fund something means to pay for something
Your employer funds you, your bank facilitates those funds getting to you. Your bank does not fund you
Qatar funds Hamas, Israel facilitates those funds getting to Hamas. Israel do not fund Hamas
Lazy_Membership1849@reddit
Ans yet Bibi still said that Not me, his word
meister2983@reddit
And to prevent other nations from complaining as civil society collapsed in Gaza
Lazy_Membership1849@reddit
Bibi himself said that
https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-to-hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-palestinians-divided-583082
Gubbinso@reddit
Yes, it does reduce power of the enemy, which increases security in the short term. However, in the long term, the survivors of that mass bombing and invasion are left with nothing and are heavily traumatised. Factor in the indiscriminate bombing and bombing of Israeli declared safe zones, use of starvation as a weapon, very high civilian to combatant casualty ratio in comparison to other urban wars and arbitrary arrest under "administrative detention". You now have a desperate majority young population that rightfully sees Israel as existential threats to not just themselves but everything they value.
Long term, the result is a radicalised majority unwilling to work diplomatically with Israel, more prone to violence, as violence begets violence, with extremely bleak outlooks on their future. This lowers the long term security of Israel by essentially creating your own future enemy.
blobofhope@reddit
You do realise that they were offered peace and security and what they are doing instead is attacking everyone right?
Their security is in no way increased by committing countless war crimes, creating more anger, more injustice and more innocent deaths…
What do you think all the civilians who were just trying to live peacefully in their own country and no longer have a home, have seen them kill their child, parent, friend, neighbour or coworker are feeling right now? What would you think?
TheUnicornRevolution@reddit
This guy/bot you're talking to must live in this sub, always here doing their best to convince us not to trust our lying eyes, ears, or in depth research.
blobofhope@reddit
Yes, very true, when you defend the indefensible truth is not your friend…
meister2983@reddit
Who is "they" and who offered what? Israel? Hezbollah? Hamas? I'm confused who you are even talking about.
Pissed off, but war is hell. In the counter-factual would they have fought Hezbollah or Hamas? Of course not.
As for me, I would conclude I should emigrate. These places suck.
blobofhope@reddit
The Arab and Muslim states offered to guarantee their security if they guaranteed Palestine’s… they chose otherwise.
Israel never gave Lebanon a chance to become strong enough to fight Hezbolah.. and keep on strengthening them by attacking instead… Hamas isn’t in the west bank and yet there is no peace for the Palestinians there…
Why would civilians have to fight anyone who isn’t attacking them, they are civilians, they are the main victim? Attacking the civilians however gives them reason to want to defend themselves..
Well not every one wants or can emigrate that easily, and I’d be surprised if you were truly ok so easily loosing everything because the next door country wants to create a “buffer zone” and future annexation on your village.
meister2983@reddit
When? The Arab Peace initiative? There were no security guarantees.
Regardless, note that neither Iran, Hezbollah, or Hamas were parties to that.
Also note Israel was required to do a lot more. They had to "To arrive at a just and agreed solution to the Palestine refugee problem in accordance with United Nations General Assembly resolution 194 (III);", whatever the heck that means.
They gave them over two decades. How much time do they need?
??? They might not govern the territory but they are in fact there.
Well, then we have a problem. Someone has to fight the militants.
Well trade-offs. Do I just let myself get hit by rockets because it might piss off some civilians to fire back?
I didn't say I'm ok with it, just that it's the obvious choice here.
blobofhope@reddit
Research it, you’ll find out more, they did offer to guarantee Israel’s Security.
Thinking that Israel can just go around killing and stealing and should not face any responsibility from it is not only cruel, but I doubt you’ll hear that, it is also simply absurd. When someone does that much harm they need to face justice for it. Of course one of the consequences of Israel stealing land and committing war crimes is refugees, it seems entirely logical they be part of the solution for a problem they created and if that is a reason to not make peace then we are clear on Israel not actually wanting peace.
For the rest if you honestly believe that the civilians from Lebanon should defend Israel from the consequences of Israel attacking them, you are beyond conversation. Civilians are not there to protect a foreign army, even if the Israeli army does seem to like to use civilians as human shields.
Just bare in mind while you work from an individualistic perspective, where violence apparently brings some form of security which on the long term is of course absurd, but others support each other and care about each other.
I don’t remember 20 years since 1978 where Israel didn’t attack Lebanon, I could be missing something but I don’t see them, and considering the amount of harm done by Israel to Lebanon they do need time to strengthen up and rebuild in order to reduce Hezbollah’s influence.
“You” have an iron dome and are by far the most violent and violence creating force in the region, if you really wanted peace it would have been done a long time ago, and I think at this stage the world is starting to realise that which is a great thing.
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
How you have the patience to be this articulate in the face of so much stupidity that can't possibly be rectified is beyond. Good on you
Zipz@reddit
They invaded Lebanon because they were being attack
Jesus Christ
It’s wild you think borderline destroying enemy armies who are attacking them puts countries in a worse security situation.
Like how does that even make sense to you ?
exegenes1s@reddit
They had a ceasefire with Hezbollah, Hezbollah didn't fire a single bullet for over a year while Israel violated it 1000 times. Israel wants war.
meister2983@reddit
Hezbollah violated the ceasefire entirely just by virtue of continuing to be armed.
And they struck first in 2023
ThatHeckinFox@reddit
LoL. LMAO, even.
They have a genocidel settler colonialist state on their border, known to violate ceasefire agreements, my dude. What were they supposed to do?
Should Ukraine also just surrender and de-arm? Would that put the "Great Russian Bear" back to sleep.
God damn, at least take a breath between two sips of the Kool-Aid, you are depriving your brain of Oxygen
SatisfactionDry3038@reddit
Strictly speaking, Israel struck Palestine first in 2023
meister2983@reddit
I didn't realize Hezbollah was a Palestinian group
SatisfactionDry3038@reddit
You can’t separate the genocidal aggressions like that
meister2983@reddit
I don't even know what you are talking about or what you are referring to as genocidal. Walk me through your timeline
Zipz@reddit
They had a ceasefire with Lebanon not Hezbollah
It’s wild you know so little about what you are talking about
Let alone Hezbollah did fire rockets and breached the ceasefire multiple times
Just because you lie doesn’t it true
Alpha_Majoris@reddit
Where does it say that the civilian casualties were not intentional? As I see it, it says nothing about intent: not that it was intended to kill tens of thousands of civilians, not that it didn't intend to.
kolitics@reddit
What security? Hamas was digging tunnels for a decade preparing to attack them. How can you even claim this period represents security while an enemy tunnels unseen?
kekbooi@reddit
The tunnels are for hiding from attacks, they don't provide much offensive value. They didn't dig their way out last time they broke out
SirStupidity@reddit
Because Israel destroyed the offensive cross border tunnels a decade ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_War
kolitics@reddit
Defense like hiding from attacks with their hostages after they attacked Israel and killed hundreds of civilians?
kekbooi@reddit
They can't attack Israel since they are being occupied, you can never be the aggressor against your occupier. They broke out to take hostages to leverage for the thousands of hostages Israel still holds.
loggy_sci@reddit
This is wild. Oct 7th wasn’t Hamas “breaking out”, not even Hamas describe it this way. The way western liberals and leftists talk about I/P is divorced from reality.
Oct 7th wasn’t a planned, orchestrated attack. You don’t need to valorize terrorists simply because the Israeli government is evil or because you hate <<>>. Do better.
SatisfactionDry3038@reddit
I agree the Israelis are terrorists
kolitics@reddit
They killed hundreds of people and it wasn’t an attack because it was an endemic terrorist group digging “defensive e:Obviously also to take revenge” tunnels? That sounds secure.
coleto22@reddit
Israel are digging bomb shelters as well. By your logic, Israel are just as aggressive as Hamas, if not more.
ChillAhriman@reddit
War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength. Jews need to wage war to carve an ethnostate, or else they won't be safe. Israel is only defending itself.
ZuluIsNumberOne@reddit
ethnostate except for the millions of arabs and Palestinians who live in Israel and work the same jobs and eat at the same restaurants and sit on the same beach bench and bus as everybody else. japan is an actual example of an ethnostate
WallyWestJest@reddit
an explicitly jewish state for the jewish people is inherently exclusionary, doubly so when you factor the lived experiences of Arabs and other minorities from there.
Americas greatest ally is absolutely an ethnostate, the same way rhodesia was. Japan is not an ethnostate, it’s ethnically homogenous. There’s an incredibly large difference between those two things. The people who live in Japan now are overwhelmingly the same people who have continuously lived there. Your nasty little pariah ethnostate has been committing terrorism for the better part of a century, with the expressed intention of violently removing indigenous people. Just like every other settler colonial dump.
lewkir@reddit
Not to disagree with your general point but the Japanese pushed the original inhabitants of what is now Japan, the Ainu, out of Honshu and have colonised and suppressed their culture in much the same way the US have Native Americans.
ZuluIsNumberOne@reddit
first 7 words was enough to demonstrate you know nothing about Judaism or the meaning of Zionism and if you don't know that you don't know enough to talk about israel in good faith.
ycnz@reddit
Oh, that's reassuring. So they have exactly the same rights, enshrined in law, right?
ZuluIsNumberOne@reddit
in Israel yes. this doesn't include places not Israel like Jordan Egypt Gaza or the agreed upon areas of judea and Samaria as discussed in the Oslo accords
ycnz@reddit
Oh, that's great. I'd heard that the Right of Return only applied to certain groups of people, which would be super-shitty. It's really nice to hear that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return#Claims_of_discrimination_in_relation_to_Palestinian_refugees was just antisemitic misinformation deliberately written to make Israel seem like cunts.
UnGauchoCualquiera@reddit
How can a jewish person without any connection to the land have more rights than the actual people living there for generations?
ZuluIsNumberOne@reddit
how come bella hadid has refugee status
UnGauchoCualquiera@reddit
Why move the goalpost? Can't face the truth maybe?
ZuluIsNumberOne@reddit
projection. why am i not allowed to use your own logic?
travistravis@reddit
Same rights, like the right to no capital punishment? Oh wait that's only Israelis, not Palestinians.
ZuluIsNumberOne@reddit
Read the law and read the room the only supporters of the bill that will never see application are Likud supporters which isn't the whole country
travistravis@reddit
Israel is an apartheid state
blobofhope@reddit
Please be careful to separate Jewish and supporter of Israel and their current government, I know this is how the Israel government and news speak, but many jewish people are against this war and in total disagreement with what Israel is doing. This is only helping BN, his genocidal government and their supporters who scream antisemitism every time somebody speaks against their actions.
ChillAhriman@reddit
Completely correct, Jewish =/= Israeli. But I'm not making statements that I think are true, I'm parodying zionist discourse, which does conflate Jews with Israelies.
blobofhope@reddit
Fair point
DefDefTotheIOF@reddit
If they collectively feel that way they should speak up on it and denounce the zionist movement like how the vast majority of Muslims speak out against and denounce groups like ISIS. Right now, however, around 90% support the zionist regime, 99% of all their synagogues openly support israel, and every major Jewish organization on the planet supports the genocidal zionist colonial project, meanwhile I can't find a single Mosque that supports ISIS.
https://www.npr.org/2025/03/03/nx-s1-5130288/this-synagogue-calls-itself-anti-zionist-heres-what-that-means-in-practice
blobofhope@reddit
The whole point is many do speak up, of course it isn’t collectively including Israel, but many do and antisemitism won’t help us, only make BN and his nasty, criminal govt stronger. I have no idea where you got your numbers, but more discrimination isn’t the solution. Let is be more nuanced, self-critical, honest and human than BN and his friends..
lunachilles@reddit
You swallowed the propoganda whole and asked for more huh
seejur@reddit
So the guy drags the US into pointless wars, ask for daddy to replenish their weapons stock at every turn, but doesn't want to be a "client state" because, God forbid, the US is tired of their shit (at least the Dem sides)?
recreationalgluttony@reddit
Establishment Dems are all pro-Israel.
The only way I can see things changing is for the economic situation in the U.S. get so bad that funding Israel is clearly unsustainable. Though, I doubt it, given the propaganda clearly being eaten up by commenters here.
Dry-Season-522@reddit
"Whaa Israel stopped caring about the opinions of people who will demand the destruction of Israel no matter what it does or doesn't do, this makes me mad because my glorious caliphate requires them to drop their guard!"
HockeyHocki@reddit
Not even Netanyahu really believed it was going to be possible to destroy a terrorist force that can just whip off their keffiyeh the day after their main event and become regular Palestinians again.
The piece is a reasonably accurate take overall though, would be interesting to read an article like this weighing up the decisions made by the various resistance movements, whether their actions over the last 3 years have brought them closer or further from their stated goals
jenny_905@reddit
Oh now the journo class are going to start talking about the dangers of spending decades telling religious extremists that they are special and selling them all manner of civilisation ending weaponry?
Mr1ntexxx@reddit
Endless sanewashing from western media. Can you imagine if every article about ISIS was framed in a way where they only spoke about its barbarities from a point of self preservation instead of the suffering of their victims? Ridiculous.
meister2983@reddit
Economist certainly does cold realist takes on isis: https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2014/01/20/what-isis-an-al-qaeda-affiliate-in-syria-really-wants
But the difference here is that the economist is rooted in basic internationalism which gives a monopoly of violence on States. In that framework, an armed isis is simply completely illegitimate, so there's nothing isis can really do to preserve itself
Alpha_Majoris@reddit
How does the Economist write about Trump and his endeavours?
blobofhope@reddit
Interesting point on the “internationalism”
Mr1ntexxx@reddit
Fair enough of an analysis, and I was unaware of that article by the Economist. I guess my take would be more valid with regards to other less "academic" outlets then.
Highandfast@reddit
What's wrong with the article?
seejur@reddit
see https://www.reddit.com/r/anime_titties/comments/1sslhqe/israels_openended_wars_have_eroded_its_security/ohnfu7f/
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