New gearless e-bike motor
Posted by LargeNerdKid@reddit | ebikes | View on Reddit | 28 comments
A new fully automatic motor due for release next year.
Posted by LargeNerdKid@reddit | ebikes | View on Reddit | 28 comments
A new fully automatic motor due for release next year.
REDMOON2029@reddit
surely pedalling directly to a chain and the rear hub is way more efficient than into a generator and then passing that energy to a motor. I dont understand the concept. Is it to avoid the troubles with a normal drive train?
RECCE_HIPPO@reddit
Pedaling isn’t very efficient on e-bikes in general at higher speeds, the bike is outputting 750+ watts and pedaling putting in 100 watts doesn’t really make you go faster or further.
With this your pedaling is always at maximum efficiency possible within the system, even if it’s a technically less efficient way to pedal overall.
The Also TM-B uses drive by wire, and from what we’ve seen it’s very efficient. Incorporating regen braking helps offset the inefficiency as well.
chrispark70@reddit
The bikes shown at the link have chain lines. Sounds more like a fixie to me.
Wireless pedaling is outright stupid. The efficiency of such a system is terrible. 60% maybe. You are doing 2 energy conversions with maybe 80-85 efficiency for each of the 2 conversion (kinetic to electric and electric to kinetic).
These "innovations" are silly. Bicycle drive lines are incredibly efficient. While, sure, gears can be a pain in the ass, it's not rocket science to keep them in line.
While shifting may be confusing to new riders, it becomes second nature in no time.
RECCE_HIPPO@reddit
The bike at this link I’ll agree with you on, but chains are outdated for this application and I’d assume belts will become the dominant technology in this application in the coming decades.
As far as comparisons, I don’t agree with your framing. Ignoring the pedaling for a second, the Also system is just straight up more efficient. No gears so less rotating mass which has a relatively large effect on efficiency, and a belt drive is lighter and more efficient than a chain. Once again, a lot of this is splitting hairs at the 1% level, e-bikes are outrageously efficient no matter how you skin the cat.
But by incorporating this system you are losing efficiency on the pedaling side, while at the same time regaining efficiency on the regen braking side. For most applications, for most people, regen braking will far and away make up for this relative inefficiency. Basically removes brake pads from your maintenance schedule, can be used for an infinite amount of time on long downhills, and of course extends range especially in hilly environments.
Once again, a lot of this is splitting hairs. But there’s going to be 10’s of millions of e-bikes with generator pedals and a belt drive on the road over the coming decades, it’s just a better system for a pavement pounder, for most people’s use case. The pedaling inefficiency is a rounding error.
guisar@reddit
Ridiculous- unnecessary complexity and more expensive/unserviceable parts for what? Regen on a bike is never going to be anything substantial. "Pedaling is always going to be the most efficient" is marketing nonsense.
RECCE_HIPPO@reddit
The points you’re making are identical to people who defend ICE cars as an indefinitely viable technology. “At least I can change my own oil, when the battery goes out on my EV I’m screwed!”
These parts don’t require service or maintenance for extensive spans of time. There’s absolutely no reason one of these sealed motor systems couldn’t last a hundred thousand miles. Shoot, there are hub drive motor e-bikes with 20-30k on the motor and there is an absurd amount of parts wear there relative to what we’re discussing with this technology.
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Jedski89@reddit
Also mean once the battery has run out you're fucked.
RECCE_HIPPO@reddit
That is absolutely not the case with the also, you can pedal and move even at zero charge. And the range is long enough that for most people it just isn’t even a consideration.
It also has sbc charging so you can carry a lightweight charger and charge anywhere with a MacBook charger if something happens.
Jedski89@reddit
Yeah I'd rather overcome the frictions in a mid drive then pedal a generator and have all the losses associated with that on top of powering the display and such and also the motor. Also hate when people say 'the range is so long you don't need to worry about it'. It has around an 800wh battery (around for 540wh for the standard battery). That's not as much as I'd like for a 28mph capable ebike, even with brake regen.
It's ok to run out of power when you're riding your bike in town and can plug in your Macbook charger at your local Starbucks ™. But when it runs out in the middle of nowhere you can't plug it into a tree.
RECCE_HIPPO@reddit
How fast you ride is the biggest factor for all of this, discussing anything else is splitting hairs. It’s simple physics. People will ride the also faster because it’s full suspension and powerful, but if you use the lowest setting the range will be extremely comparable to other bikes. It’s just physics.
And in the middle of nowhere it would be much easier to solar emergency charge a USB-C ebike vs one that requires an A/C-DC brick to charge :)
REDMOON2029@reddit
how does that count as "not efficient"? Pedalling and adding 100w to the already 750w will increase output power anyway. How can you expect a person to output the same energy output by pedalling into a generator? I dont get it
RECCE_HIPPO@reddit
I mean there’s two options when you’re pedaling going at higher speeds, either the bike goes a little faster using the same amount of power, or the bike drops the power output and maintains the same speed. If your bike goes a little faster, at higher speeds that extra 100 watts from pedaling doesn’t go very far, in my experience a mile an hour or two if you’re really pedaling.
If it drops output, then you’re replacing 100ish watts of energy drain with your leg power. Which is good for range! But when comparing the deltas, even if a drive by wire e-bike only captures 50w from your pedaling, over a full charge you’re probably losing out on 100ish wh in inefficiency.
Regen braking being enabled would turn that 100ish wh with manual pedaling into a rounding error. E-bikes are so efficient it’s a wash, but the lower maintenance of a sealed generator system is hugely advantageous. It’s like asking what the advantage is of an electric car, you’re getting rid of all sorts of gears, power transmission systems, and lossy, breakable parts with a single imperfect but essentially maintenance free power train. One of these e-bikes basically needs tires and nothing else for 10’s of thousands of miles and that is a GIGANTIC advantage.
Iggyglom@reddit
Pedal harder duh
RECCE_HIPPO@reddit
Fd=1/2Pv^2CdA wants to know your location
lee1026@reddit
My assumption is that the pedal is 100% for legal reasons, and they just want some way of pretending that there is a link while not having a link.
The motor and battery is perfectly capable of propelling a bike on its own.
Ohm_Slaw_@reddit
Does anybody know how to derestrict this motor? /s
MannyDantyla@reddit
Would speed be controlled by how fast you’re pedaling?
I want the bike to feel like a normal non-EV bike but that you’re always pedaling with a strong wind at your bike. Right now my ebike just feels like a really slow motorcycle. Pedaling harder doesn’t really make the bike go faster. (I need to test-ride some higher end models to see if they feel more natural.)
But I feel like removing the mechanical link between the pedals and rear wheels isn’t going to make this any better.
nightwood@reddit
Jezus Christ that website is one big ad.
atlasraven@reddit
The over-the-air updates is concerning but also a potential feature? Disable the bike when not in use to deter theft.
abercrombezie@reddit
Aventon has that brick feature on their newest Current if stolen, also tracks via GPS free first year, but $20 per year after.
TitaniumKneecap@reddit
I thought the Current was made by Priority?
pathf1nder00@reddit
My Enviolo doesn't have gears either, and it's a proven hub.
Bobbiago@reddit
From the article:
“Pedal-by-wire (also called fly-by-wire) systems already exist, where you pedal into a generator and it translates that into drive in a hub motor, so there’s no chain or belt. This is a similar concept but with a chain.”
I am not sure what the benefit is since a chain is heavier than a wire.
Also, I like having control of shifting. This might be idea for those who don’t have, and don’t want to develop, skills.
rizzdragon@reddit
The benefit is there’s only one motor/generator assembly.
With other pedal-by-wire systems, you pedal into a generator and it then transfers that electricity to a hub motor on one of the wheels of the bike.
With this system, the generator and motor are in the same housing, so after generating the electricity, it transfers it from the mid drive motor to the rear wheel sprocket using a chain.
Basically it’s just a way to do “pedal-by-wire” on a mid-drive bike.
LargeNerdKid@reddit (OP)
At first I hated having to shift, using the throttle in place of gears but now I've gotten used to shifting i can't imagine a bike without gears.
ObjectiveOk1275@reddit
There was same product about 10 years ago but never really gained popularity becouse of motors ineffiency