EU Chief Groups Turkey with Russia and China as "Threats to be Countered," Sparking Diplomatic Firestorm
Posted by BabylonianWeeb@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 177 comments
GerryAdamsSon@reddit
EU is run by incompetent, failed politicians and policy seems to be based on vibes alone
What sort of threat does China pose to Europe? A country that has not gone to war in half a century?
It seems all these 'threats' are simply countries that threaten western hegemony and the already-established order
sofixa11@reddit
Weird argument. Yes, China hasn't gone to war in a while, but is undergoing a massive military buildup, including building bases in contested territories, and is relatively openly talking about getting Taiwan.
But that's irrelevant, because threats can be other types than military. China is a threat to European manufacturing and services bases and the related employment they provide. If there is something happening that can easily put 3.4 million people out of a job (12.9% in the wider supply chain) just in the automotive sector, that's a threat.
SamuelClemmens@reddit
and is relatively openly talking about getting Taiwan.
This is the part that fails. You can't say the Donbas has no right to self rule and Kyiv has the right to reassert control, but that Taiwan does have a right to self rule and Beijing has no right to reassert control from any sort of legal framework.
The only framework you've got to allow that is self interest, which is fine... but then why is it in Europe's self interest to care?
sofixa11@reddit
Remind me, when did I say that?
Also, it's a bullshit argument. Crimea, sure. Donbass is Ukrainian with a healthy percentage of people whose native language is Russian, which does not make them Russian. As evidenced by the fact that the Russians had to send their army on covert operations there for a decade before starting a full blown invasion to actually get the territories.
SamuelClemmens@reddit
The Taiwanese are a tiny minority of their own population, the current state is ethnic Chinese.
Its why their official name is the Republic of China.
So again, you are proving my point because the more you point your Donbass has no right you also prove Taiwan has no right.
If you start saying Taiwan has a right, those same arguements are just as valid for the Donbass.
That is the entire point I am making.
sofixa11@reddit
What the fuck are you on? Russian trolling used to be vaguely believable.
There are no ethnic Russians in the Donbass, so the premise for your pathetic attempt at whataboutism doesn't exist.
SamuelClemmens@reddit
Wait, you don't think the Donbass is full of ethnic Russians?
Like that is delulu land. The source I have for thaThat is The Ukrainian Government. Ukraine is like 25% ethnic Russian, Stalin drew the maps that way to cause ethnic strife if they tried to seperate from the USSR (like with every SSR)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donbas
The regions that broke away in 2014 (with Russian help) were the majority of the ethnic Russians in the Donbas (who as a whole of the entirely of the donbas are about 2 in 5.)
MrDemonRush@reddit
Man, this is "Lenin put a bomb under Russia" levels of retarded. You could have just said you get all of your info from Russia Today lmao.
SamuelClemmens@reddit
Right...
So Armenia and Azerbaijan's borders were completely normal based on ethnic population right?
Also Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan?
And thinking that is Russian propaganda? Really? Lets see what the first result for the question is:
Oh look its the Atlantic, followed by the New York Times, and Bloomberg.
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/03/how-stalin-created-some-of-the-post-soviet-worlds-worst-ethnic-conflicts/273649/https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/03/how-stalin-created-some-of-the-post-soviet-worlds-worst-ethnic-conflicts/273649/https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/03/how-stalin-created-some-of-the-post-soviet-worlds-worst-ethnic-conflicts/273649/
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/03/how-stalin-created-some-of-the-post-soviet-worlds-worst-ethnic-conflicts/273649/
MrDemonRush@reddit
Man, just look at the article you chose and who wrote it lmao, he literally has an article "I watched Russian State TV all day". He is just one of many journos that fell to Russian gov propaganda about Soviets, since they were doing the "blame the previous admin" for their entire existence.
SamuelClemmens@reddit
Did the CIA also fall for Russian propaganda? If so they must be pretty good those Ruskies, how did they ever lose the cold war?
You are really doubling down on the crazy to avoid acknowledging the USSR was bad.
Sorry man, the commies lost. Deal.
MrDemonRush@reddit
Wha? I questioned the ridiculous narrative that Stalin personally is to blame for all the shit that happened 50 years after his death, and not many, many, many, many failings of regimes that actually went to said ethnic conflicts. Russian gov loves blaming their former party(since, you know, nearly all of them are former CPSU members).
Funny thing you went to commies immediately, just makes it certain you are a bot.
sofixa11@reddit
You're confusing Russian speakers with ethnic Russians. Zelenskyy himself was a primarily Russian speaker, nobody would say he's ethnically Russian.
SamuelClemmens@reddit
No, I am not. If you include people who speak Russian that is almost 75% of the population of the Donbass (and the region that broke off was almost 100% Russian speakers )
You seem woefully underinformed about the region and about the terrible things the USSR did.
NezumiAniki@reddit
The language became the main argument AFTER Donbass disagreed with legitimacy of "dignity revolution" government It's not like they "oh finally we can break off" but more like "wtf are these retards doing, we're out"
jshaultt@reddit
The U.S has over 300 military bases that are in range to attack to china. How many military bases does China have in mexico and canada or any other island that is near the U.S exactly?
sofixa11@reddit
How is that in any way relevant to:
China wanting to take over Taiwan
Chinese industry being a threat to European industry
REKTGET3162@reddit
People keep bringing up Americans but I dont see the point. Have China ever tried to not build their country so close to all those American bases instead?
AwkwardTal@reddit
It defaults back to Israel imo, Israel is gunning for Turkey next, so they through Trump and their EU puppets are attempting to isolate Turkey out of Nato
Mythosaurus@reddit
So Israel wants to close the Strait of Hormuz (Iran), the Red Sea (Yemen), and the Bosporus (Turkey) all at the same time?
Very smart plan…
GerryAdamsSon@reddit
I don't disagree, but what makes Israel think they would last a minute against Turkey 😅
kapsama@reddit
The question you really need to ask is if Turkey would last a minute against Israel's vassal the US.
ffpeanut15@reddit
LMAO you seriously think Israel has the military power to beat Turkey? They can't even beat a sanctioned Iran
kapsama@reddit
Israel can't. But their little helper the US can.
ffpeanut15@reddit
Are their little helpers going to set foot for an invasion? Doubtful
kapsama@reddit
If they level all major economic, political, military infrastructure then there's really no need to invade. It would cripple Turkey for decades and make them lose control of Cyprus and the Kurdish south east.
BendicantMias@reddit
Once again I have to remind people that Robert Pape has written a whole ass book on the history of military aviation all to make one simple point - you don't win wars with just pure air power. Strategic bombing campaigns don't work.
I'd be surprised this needs to still be stressed given how it keeps failing, but I guess the sheer flashy nature of this type of warfare just keeps impressing and thereby winning people over. 'Shock and Awe' as it were, but in this case on the home population, to win support.
kapsama@reddit
It worked in Iraq in the early 90s. Iraq went from an incredibly powerful and wealthy country to a poverty stricken paper tiger.
TearOpenTheVault@reddit
Iraq was always a paper tiger. They had a huge military that completely folded as soon as boots hit the ground.
kapsama@reddit
Compared to the US perhaps. Their neighbors would disagree.
TearOpenTheVault@reddit
Yes, I'm sure Iran was shaking in their boots at the threat of Iraq launching another quagmire offensive that leads to a status quo antebellum and more people rallying around the Ayatollahs.
AwkwardTal@reddit
If Iran and yemen can do it turkey sure can
kapsama@reddit
Iran has been planning for 30 years against war with the US and Israel and aimed all their strategies for asymmetrical warfare with ballistic missiles drones and a strategy of inflicting economic damage on the US.
Turkey has a conventional NATO army. They do everything the US does but on a far smaller scale.
BendicantMias@reddit
Iran isn't a unique case, it's just another example in a long line of them that adheres to the same pattern - Strategic Bombing alone DOES NOT WORK. You don't win wars with pure air campaigns.
kapsama@reddit
That depends entirely on what the goal is. Regime change? Perhaps bombing won't work. But if the goal is to weaken or cripple a county it definitely works. Ask Saddam in the 90s.
eagleal@reddit
Israel doesn’t need to win, like they don’t have to win with Iran.
They just want to destroy them economically/leadership so they have regional hegemony.
Just to put it jnto perspective, the US, Israel and Turkey were all arming whether indirectly or directly the IS in Syria. Turkey is still the main supporter if the Brotherhood that took over Syria.
GerryAdamsSon@reddit
And they're doing neither
eagleal@reddit
We might disagree on this.
While they may have strengthened the current government in Iran, they did a lot of damage to its military power projection and economy.
If Iran manages to impose fees on the strait as projected, then the damage to the economy might even recover better than it was, at least from a cash perspective.
AwkwardTal@reddit
They won't, similarly how the apartheid state won't last against Iran alone
But they won't be alone, they'd have the US and all the cucked EU countries supporting it
half-baked_axx@reddit
Daddy USA got their backs unfortunately
nates1984@reddit
I guess blaming the jews for everything will always be popular in some parts of the world.
Multinational huh? Too chickenshit to put your real country?
Sulo1719@reddit
I dont even know what to say to you. Like can americans be this blind? Tf are you consiming in your media? You 2 started whole out war just a few weeks ago all while genociding palestinians AND occupying parts of syria and lebanon. Two of your existance is a threat to peace in middle east.
AwkwardTal@reddit
Give them a break, critical thinking is illegal there.
AwkwardTal@reddit
Lasted 4 hours before one of these comments showed up
evgis@reddit
This👆👆👆
Kiboune@reddit
EU policy is USA policy. USA doesn't like China's superiority and they are doing the same tactics they did with USSR
Monterenbas@reddit
If EU policy was US policy, then the EU would have stopped supporting Ukraine a long time ago.
NezumiAniki@reddit
They do. They just don't want to spend their own resources on it anymore, so they're making EU do it. Then EU will throw bodies at Russia and then US will be happy.
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
What? The US still supports Ukraine.
Monterenbas@reddit
Lmao
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
What's funny? The US still provides weapons and inteligence for Ukraine.
Monterenbas@reddit
They sell weapons* don’t provide them, and suspended these sales as soon as Israel throw their little tantrum with Iran. Nevermind the constant public call for Ukraine to surrender and the continuous humiliation of the Ukrainian government.
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
That's still support for Ukraine lol. Without US weapons and especially inteligence and Starlink, Ukraine would've probably collapsed by now. The US also doesn't want Ukraine to surrender because it would've been their defeat too and another nail in the coffin of their global dominance.
Monterenbas@reddit
I disagree that private companies selling weapons and services to Ukraine, to make a profit, implies that the US Maga government supports Ukraine.
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
It's a bit more complex than that and it's not purely driven by profit. If it was, Musk would still allow Russia to use Starlink too. It's more of a "we'll still support Ukraine but our European puppets will pay the bill".
And thinking that republicans or Trump want Ukraine to surrender is just delusional. They're just trying to get out of this mess through negotiations so they can focus on other issues like supporting a genocide or invading random coutries. Pretty sure that Kamala would be doing something similar, just without the moronic Trump rhetoric.
slicerprime@reddit
For what it's worth, this is oddly similar to my own evaluation. And, for context, this is coming from an America who tends to piss off both of our political "sides". (Evaluating issues on their own merits without consideration of party ideology doesn't win you many friends here from either side.)
Probably. IMO, Kamala is quietly cheering Trump on every time he makes one of his goofy grandiose statements because it lets her side win points from the rhetorical nonsense alone without having to directly address policy. Which is a political win/win for her when she might act similarly were she in power.
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
Yeah, I wish that more Americans could be like you so we could actually see the change. For what it's worth, you guys are atleast seeing what's happening and turning againts Israel.
Lanky_Cobbler886@reddit
No.
🇺🇸🇺🇦 JD Vance calls ending U.S. funding for the war in Ukraine a key achievement
KronusTempus@reddit
EU policy is a bit of an oxymoron because there isn’t a coherent policy on anything. It’s a bunch of wildly different interests packaged into an incoherent mess that ends up being hostile to literally everyone.
They now hate China, Russia, the Arabs and North Africans and their “dirty immigrants” (remember the “Europe is a garden to be protected” speech) and now even Turkey too.
Who is left? They’ve pissed in the beers of all their neighbors.
It’s a well known fact that the EU institutions is where failed politicians go to so that they don’t cause trouble at home. Kallas was picked for her role simply as a virtue symbol because shes from the Baltics. Von der Leyen got into a lot of trouble as minister of defense for spending millions on consultants and being the cause of a lot of money going missing.
viktlo70@reddit
the ones that we should "hate" right now are Israel and US
NezumiAniki@reddit
More like why do they still deny that US poses threat to Europe. They're the biggest threat actually, but I guess US bribes are somehow cleaner than Chinese or something.
nates1984@reddit
You can't see what threat China poses to the EU?
In case you haven't noticed, China likes to fund the likes of Iran and Russia.
Are you sure you can't see how they are a thread to the EU?
mdedetrich@reddit
At the risk of being pedantic, China has colonized regions (check Tibet) and it has also performed ethnic cleansing/genocide (check Uyghurs)
In terms of actual risks to Europe
EU doesn't care about losing its hegemony, unlike the US it doesn't even really think in these terms (this is ironically changing but thats because of US actions forcing this change onto EU).
Turkey-Scientist@reddit
What were the many times China “blackmailed” the EU with rare earth metals monopoly? Like what actions precisely was the EU blackmailed into doing?
thereturn932@reddit
He should first ask AI
mostard_seed@reddit
Like... I get it in the context of threatening the European industrial base, but why is that a "threat"? Why the antagonistic rhetoric when they could view it as competition? Von Der Leyen's prejudices are leaking lol.
marigip@reddit
If you want to you can frame any issue as a security issue it’s called securitization. That framing is supposed to elevate the urgency of the issue.
That being said I remember it not always being very effective. At least in some contexts, eg climate change, I remember studies suggesting limited impact and even a chance for loss of credibility as the securitized issue doesn’t play out the way the average person would expect an existential threat to play out (I’m not saying climate change isn’t a threat but that it happens comparatively gradually to a war or natural disaster). In this case I would also add that it’s diplomatically counterproductive
mostard_seed@reddit
Yeah that is kinda my point. I know you can frame any challenge or hurdle as a security issue. I just feel it is counterproductive when you can instead try to reach a better deal. Even applying sanctions for subsidized industries is at least a pragmatic choice that isn't as emotionally charged as literally calling them a "security threat to be countered". This makes it seem like the issue is more fundamental than just trying to get fair economic competition.
marigip@reddit
I do think just framing it as competition undersells the dynamic a little bit, there is definitely more of a sense of antagonism between the EU and China than that. From a European perspective, China has also portrayed threatening behavior (sanctioning politicians for speaking on various issues that Beijing considers domestic and therefore off limits, (industrial) espionage and hacking, critical infrastructure control, undermining European sovereignty with those overseas police stations) that goes far beyond competition, so it doesn’t come entirely out of nowhere but like - just make that assessment internally and don’t try to do axis of evil 2.0.
(for clarity I’m not saying that Euros haven’t engaged in subversive activity or sometimes similar behavior within China but for the question of whether UvdL should publicly call them a threat it’s not really that relevant)
mostard_seed@reddit
I agree tbh. However, I believe both sides will have less of an incentive to go for unscrupulous means if they both start from a place of looking for a beneficial and equitable deal. It is not much related to this callout but I do believe both sides stand to gain by starting to be friendly and above board with their dealings.
Maybe I am being idealistic, and maybe the EU politicians do stick to their guns regarding Beijing's positions on some domestic and international political issues and the uncompetitive economic policies out of rightful moral obligation (and let's not get mired in arguing about hypocrisy and whatnot). I do find that unlikely, though. For what it matters, this feels like lowkey a mask-off moment with, like you said, trying to force an axis of evil and an us vs them scenario.
Hell, lumping the issues the EU could have with Turkey, China, and Russia under one umbrella as if they are even remotely comparable or if they are aligned together against the EU is lowkey giving red scare fearmongering.
marigip@reddit
I mean you will always find an MEP that will support any given possible position but if we are talking commission I believe they will eventually jump on the „values-based realism“ train - if they get the leadership that can act in that spirit. But as toothless as the EU foreign office (they are so irrelevant I even forgot their name) is and as little influence they seem to have, bc no shot would vdL have said this if they did no matter whether she has a personal feud with Kallas rn, I’m not biting my nails for it. I think it will more likely seep in through the council backdoor as more member states adopt the framework
HockeyHocki@reddit
She's on about economic threats not war. The low cost of labour in particular that China maintain by suppressing workers rights
We've also got massive state sponsored Chinese factories setting up shop in Europe, factories under investigation for importing their shitty work practices before they've even opened doors
China have quietly taken stranglehold over the worlds rare earth metals through aggressive acquisitions across Africa, their non existent health & safety regulation allow them import & chemically process those minerals at a cost that is fractional vs any country that puts value on human life
moonorplanet@reddit
Yellow Peril
_Kiith_Naabal_@reddit
Not a good day in the marble tower of EU high ranks, that's for sure. And you know what is funny? Trump might see this and say "hey you forgot about us already?"
cambeiu@reddit
It is called the "barbarians at the gate" mindset.
cambeiu@reddit
Türkiye will NEVER be part of "the club", no matter how hard they try. But still crazy that the EU's Ursula von der Leyen said the quiet part out loud.
But the Turks are still expected to throw their bodies into the meatgrinder if Article 7 is ever called.
I will just sit here with my popcorn and watch the drama play out.
SirLadthe1st@reddit
Turkey: Hey guys, when can we finally join the club?
The EU: Ew! Ew! Stupid Turks! Go away! 🤮 You will NEVER be civilized europeans 🤮🤮🤮!
Turkey: Oh, well okay then. Guess we will just apply to join BRICS instead then.
The EU: WHAT DID YOU SAY!? HOW DARE YOU!? 😡😡😡
TearOpenTheVault@reddit
Turkey: Hey guys, can we join the club?
EU: Have you stopped imprisoning and arresting journalists yet? Can you not antagonise other EU members? How about not trying to hold everyone hostage with refugees and migrants?
Turkey: I’m going to keep doing all of those things.
EU: Then you can’t join, no.
eelsandpeels@reddit
I mean they are currently occupying part of the EU.
Britstuckinamerica@reddit
You're ignoring the "Turkish president: jails biggest challenger before election; jails hundreds of protesters; provokes Greece and Cyprus" that happened both before and after your first line
QuotableMorceau@reddit
no one cares if they join BRICS, but then the free trade agreement and custom union with EU needs to go .
BlackAfroUchiha@reddit
It seems like NATO is dying with the US looking to pull out.
I don't see how NATO survive in that scenario and I imagine even the Turks see writing on the wall as they're trying to form a regional security pact with the regional powers in the Middle-East.
BendicantMias@reddit
Turkey leaving NATO would allow them to finally fully take over Cyprus and screw over Greece, their long time rival. So it has benefits for them too. And Europe will never recognize Cyprus as Turkish, but Russia and China could probably be convinced to.
EfficientActivity@reddit
Cyprus is part of EU. Defending Cyprus against a Turkish attack today would probably have widespread European support, so that war wouldn't necessarily be Turkey vs Grece alone.
MongolPerson@reddit
Europe doesn't have the resources to manage multiple conflicts at once. They are trapped in Ukraine right now.
Waging a conflict with the second largest military(Turkey) in NATO would be a sure way to lose both Ukraine and Cyprus, and probably parts of Greece.
historicusXIII@reddit
There's still a lot of assets, mostly our airforces. And Greece is still sitting on its arsenal and hasn't send much to Ukraine.
But it's true, if such conflict would unfold, Cyprus likely will gain priority over Ukraine. But on the other Ukraine has managed to become more self reliant with their domestic drone industry.
Known geopolitical rivals Russia and Turkey? When did they ever fought a war on the same side?
exegenes1s@reddit
EU never actually used their own air assets though. That could change for Cyprus.
Tsofuable@reddit
Cyprus would be conquered before the EU would be able to react. So the EU would have to do a proper invasion by land and sea to take it back. Won't happen.
historicusXIII@reddit
Greece is not going to wait on a EU decision. The EU in the end will probably decide to support what Greece has already started.
Jay_Jay_Jason_74@reddit
That won't happen turkey has no interest in a full takeover
BendicantMias@reddit
You think? They already seek to claim a large swath of the eastern Meditteranean in cooperation with Egypt, and Cyprus stands in the way of that. A Turkish takeover of Cyprus gives them not just the island, but all its surrounding waters too. And this would even be helpful geopolitically if Israel tries to pick a fight with them next.
OrangutanKiwi19@reddit
Yep there's a reason the UK still has two major bases on the island
kapsama@reddit
NATO is the only thing staying the hand of the EU, the US and Israel. If Turkey leaves NATO the three would sanction Turkey a la Russia and Iran and then launch a military operation to unify Cyprus.
debasing_the_coinage@reddit
The Cyprus bit is a complete lie. The Turkish invasion of Cyprus started because Greece staged a coup to try to take over Cyprus. That doesn't excuse Turkey taking over half the island, but it's utterly ridiculous that Greeks act like totally innocent smol beans who never do anything wrong when they've spent the last half century calling for the expulsion of Turkish Cypriots.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Cypriot_Annan_Plan_referendums
Reddit liberals will scream until they're blue in the face about anyone who mentions remigration but apologize for the Greek Cypriots who wanted to make this a condition of reunification and drag EU into a war against Turkey over it.
BendicantMias@reddit
What bit? I didn't say anything about how this started, only how it might end.
insitnctz@reddit
That's the plan. Start war between turkey and Greece Cyprus as Israel proxies. Netanyahu literally said that he wants to invade turkey. Ursula is their asset so she points towards that direction.
cambeiu@reddit
Some Europeans expect the Turks to come fight with them if Greenland is ever invaded. I don;t see that happening, specially after this.
Zlimness@reddit
And Turkey being the only country except Russia-aligned Hungary blocking Sweden and Finland from joining NATO was somehow in the interest of European security?
The expectation is that Turkey is going to do its own thing.
RealAbd121@reddit
Turkey was in NATO, but not Finland or Norway. What obligation would Turkey have had toward just letting them in if they themselves weren't friendly toward it? some vague "europeanness" that never included Turkey anywya? Well... unless they want to demand a favour from it?
Tsofuable@reddit
Norway has been in Nato since forever.
RealAbd121@reddit
I think I was trying to type Sweden and my mind glitched
Zlimness@reddit
Unfriendly in what way? Sweden and Finland have close to zero interaction with Turkey. Other than a few kurds living in both countries, there's virtually no disputes Turkey could have a problem with. No other NATO country shared these concerns about Sweden or Finland.
Once Turkey got it's upgraded F-16's, both Sweden and Finland were allowed in NATO. So it was always about a very specific, transactional thing Turkey wanted that had nothing to do with it's relationship towards Sweden and Finland. And fine, we can have it that way. But let's not pretend it's about shared values or trust.
Asjutton@reddit
You are arguing the same point as the comment you are replying to. Europe does not see Turkey as a natural ally, and Turkey does not wish to become a natural ally. They are part of NATO. That is as far as it goes.
RealAbd121@reddit
My point is that the EU refused to see them as an ally when they tried for decades to be a super boring secular eurocratic state; there is a constant shock and outrage when they react to being thrown under the bus by looking out for themselves first, instead of accommodating said bus throwers. Which is why it feels weird to keep seeing someone complain about their decision, it's not like you see Turkey make statements about how they're mad at Europe, only one side keeps getting offended there being a distance and coldness when they caused it.
Asjutton@reddit
Once again you are saying that Turkey is actively looking out for themselves first. As if you have an opposing idea. It's what everyone is saying dude.
Asjutton@reddit
I don't know many, or even any, Europeans who believe that. Mostly it reflects a misconception that Americans sometimes have about the geopolitical position of Turkey, because they overestimate NATO integration compared to European integration. Which is natural, because the US is in NATO but not Europe, so European matters are not as widely understood.
RealAbd121@reddit
Turkey was in NATO, but not Finland or Norway. What obligation would Turkey have had toward just letting them in if they themselves weren't friendly toward it? some vague "europeanness" that never included Turkey anywya? Well... unless they want to demand a favour from it?
Monterenbas@reddit
No they don’t, at best they hope Turkey don’t take advantage of the opportunity to attack Greece or Cyprus.
Dektul@reddit
In no world will Turkey ever attack greece.
Monterenbas@reddit
I mean, dumb invasions, that would have seems impossible a few years before, appear to be a global trend, unfortunately.
Agasthenes@reddit
If you want to be part of the club, act like you want to be.
The way turkey has been playing both sides and is threatening Europe is not the move of a team player.
redridingoops@reddit
Leave it to German politicians to consistently suck all the US dick they can, at the expense of the rest of Europe...
Able-Swing-6415@reddit
Eh nobody needs turkey. The Russian Navy is a complete non factor against NATO so they an do whatever they want to the black sea.
We have more manpower and more and better quality equipment than Ukraine. Take out Hungary, USA and Turkey and nothing will change in a defensive war. The US only matters if you want to import people from across the globe after bombing their country to shit. I think we could do without that capability.
Monterenbas@reddit
Good that they haven’t tried very hard or want to be part of the club to begin with, then.
QuotableMorceau@reddit
they can be "club compatible" in a few months: the just need to remove the lese majeste laws, release all political prisoners (mainly journalists), and remove all laws that have prison sentences for political opinions (again journalists), write in their constitution the separation of powers and independence of the Central Bank (basically cut down on the powers of the president), negociate a settlement with the Kurds.
QuotableMorceau@reddit
there is no article 5 in EU charter, EU is not NATO
Neznanc@reddit
What does EU have to do with NATO’s Article 5?
Canadian_Poltergeist@reddit
Article 7? You mean Article 5?
Article 7 is:
"This Treaty does not affect, and shall not be interpreted as affecting in any way the rights and obligations under the Charter of the Parties which are members of the United Nations, or the primary responsibility of the Security Council for the maintenance of international peace and security."
cambeiu@reddit
Sorry, my bad. Fixed it.
HalayChekenKovboy@reddit
Saying the quiet part out loud, I see. Not a single Turk on the planet is surprised, but if you are going to be this open about despising us despite smiling to our faces, do us a favour and quit whining about how you need our help whenever Russia so much as farts in the EU's general direction.
NATO is dead, thanks Trump & Van Der Leyen. Better start learning Mandarin.
Stufilover69@reddit
Wouldn't that be retarded?
Unlike Israel's other enemies, Turkey can actually fight back
RealAbd121@reddit
They'll retract this like 6 hours later because vdl is slimy sure but also mainly because they have no backbone on any position they proclaim, good or bad.
That aside... How fucking stupid do you need to be when you feel threatened by an Russia that got a power boost from oil, US turning on you and fucking you over, and your first thought "yeah let's go offend our only neighbouring ally that we over-rely and who is also known for getting easily offended due to their insecurity that we secretly hate them and are only nice when we need something!"
Darkrath_3@reddit
Is it really insecurity if she just proved that their feelings were correct? VDL is such a useless gobshite.
RealAbd121@reddit
I still don't understand how she is still head of the EU this long. Hasn't everyone gotten sick of her like a dozen times over by now?
Stufilover69@reddit
Hey, she was elected to represent the people
By a one percent margin 😂
Darkrath_3@reddit
I have no idea. I wish we could have Macron as head of EU Comission. I feel like that was always his true calling rather than domestic politics.
Stufilover69@reddit
Well, the EU commission does not have the exclusive competence on foreign affairs. So unless the council of the European Union/member states greenlighted this she simply doesn't have the authority to make this statement.
Asjutton@reddit
The amount of misconceptions and ignorance on European politics, history and unity in the comments here really makes the case for a united humankind.
Just as ignorant as Europeans are about the rest of the world, the rest of the world is about Europe.
name20948234@reddit
Shut the fuck up you US stooge. I am fully convicted some of her instructions are to do things that weaken the EU and damage it's reputation and therefore soft power. She talks a lot about EU sovereignty while her appointees want to buy more US weapons. She completely capitulated to the US with her one sided trade deal that luckily fell apart because of the dictators threats to Greenland.
Adorable-Database187@reddit
To add some context.
Significant-Ad-7182@reddit
MHP is a nationalist party in name only. They are little more then an organized criminal entity partially created by CIA to combat communist movements in Turkey during the Cold War.
I mean come on they are trying to have the leader of PKK released for god's sake and they call themselves nationalists and grey wolves. They are jackals at best.
Sari_sendika_siken@reddit
"in name only"
proceeds to explain they are indeed the most nationalistic entity in the country
Significant-Ad-7182@reddit
Explain then what's nationalistic about supporting the release of Öcalan?
Or do you happen to view nationalism as the root of all evil?
HamunaHamunaHamuna@reddit
For the last 150 years, nationalism has indeed been the main root of evil.
_Antitese@reddit
>For the last 150 years, nationalism has indeed been one of the main roots of evil.
Thats bullshit. Nationalism is not the same as xenophobia and racism. Nationalism, in fact, is very useful for the colonized countries of the world, to defend itself from western colonialism.
HamunaHamunaHamuna@reddit
It wasn't xenophobia or racism that led to the start of the world wars though, it was nationalist ideology.
Sari_sendika_siken@reddit
Biggest hint would be his relations with sercret service throughout the years, another would be how he destroyed Kurdish freedom movement for the whole region.
Chipay@reddit
Specifically, was the quote, referring to the integration of the Balkans. It's no secret that the EPP wing of the EU have hegemonic ambitions for the continent, and Türkiye has had historical interests in the Balkans, and has a history of interfering with its neighbours to its advantage.
It's poorly phrased, but I don't think this indicates any kind of notable shift from the 2010's and even prior. The EU sees Türkiye as a transactional partner; one that is not aligned but can be swayed, and I think that kind of opportunism suits Erdogan just fine.
Kiboune@reddit
How exactly China is threatening Europe? Or this is just USA talking through Europe? And I thought Turkey was Europe ally? Now they want to throw them away?
Melodic-Piccolo5751@reddit
China is playing it smart, it's mostly an economic threat to Europe. Entire local businesses suffer because of unfair competition with Chinese goods, plus the monopoly on critical minerals. Entire supply chains are dependent on China, a country that has no interest in becoming allies with the EU.
mostard_seed@reddit
Who says they have no interest in becoming allies with the EU? It seems to me like they will more than welcome it if the EU is less coupled to the US.
Melodic-Piccolo5751@reddit
Perhaps it was badly worded, it's not that it wouldn't be interested, what it would gain from this alliance is to try to make EU completely dependent on it economically and technologically, which has already happened when the west was friendly with China.
What EU needs is to decouple from China, Russia and the USA and rise up as an independent power, none can be trusted.
_Antitese@reddit
>what it would gain from this alliance is to try to make EU completely dependent on it economically and technologically, which has already happened when the west was friendly with China.
That's called projection. Just because Europe is an imperialist project, doesn't mean every state is. China didn't do anything to Europe, nor will do. All Europe needs to do to "deal" with China is sort itself and stop being a vassal state from the US, and stop importing neoliberal ideas from Chicago.
mostard_seed@reddit
They can try to use diplomacy to reach equitable terms, at least with China since they do not have contested borders with them like with Russia, or are already entangled in some unequitable deals like with the US.
The EU still has leverage and can use it, and unless we reverse globalization somehow and cut off the supply chain dependencies (which i don't think is likely in any situation short of a world war), it might be better to try to reach a deal in good faith. The EU is collectively the biggest consumer market in the world iirc, and China is a huge and ever expanding market too, and if they can try, surely both sides can find a beneficial deal (something to skirt China's local anti-competitive or isolationist market measures and or the EU's own aversion to subsidized industries for China, for example).
AwkwardTal@reddit
That's on China not the Europe, and US is more of a threat to Europe than China ever will.
kimana1651@reddit
You understand that geopolitics started more than 2 years ago and will continue to exist after the next 2 years?
_Antitese@reddit
It didn't start with Trump and will not end with him. He is just a continuation of the US imperialism, but when in decline.
Melodic-Piccolo5751@reddit
China has the capacity to cripple European economy if Europe allows itself to become dependent on it. Europe needs to decouple from both and be an independent power, none can be trusted, but for this it needs to stay united.
_Antitese@reddit
China didn't do anything to western manufacturing. Western neoliberalism did. Blaming China for not adopting neoliberal Washington Consensus is nonsensical.
Asjutton@reddit
Independent Europe is the correct answer. 🤝
Melodic-Piccolo5751@reddit
This view seems to be downvoted a lot
Asjutton@reddit
Yeah, it's kind of odd tbf
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Yeah. The US would never cripple Europe’s economy…
Melodic-Piccolo5751@reddit
Did you read the entire post? I did say decouple from both (China and USA) and be independent because none can be trusted........
KronusTempus@reddit
Non-white people can only be poor so they can feel bad for them, wealthy powerful non-whites are a threat. It’s the same 19th century imperialism we’ve gotten used to. Israel is quite literally a colonial project.
Asjutton@reddit
Chinese colonialism is more relevant today than European. If you wish to get up to date. That is the threat Europe is talking about with China. They are expanding all over the world, maybe you missed it.
gs87@reddit
US imperialism crumbling LOL ... The US still has a global military lattice and tens of thousands of troops across the Indo-Pacific ... In that region alone, the US has 24 persistent bases, access to 20 more sites, and about 88,500 personnel, while China has one overseas base in Djibouti.
Asjutton@reddit
Yes, all of that is true. Bit it is on the downslope. Not going up. Their soft power, economical and diplomatical influence and alliances are falling apart, which matters arguably more.
Asjutton@reddit
China is a huge economic and political threat to Europe. There are many reports of Chinese business infiltration in universities and large organizations and the Chinese economical expansive colonialism is threatening Europe too. They are buing up huge infrastructure objects such as ports and railway contracts in Europe.
Turkey is Turkey, they have always been apart from Europe, just allied as long as it is beneficial or the interests align (or European and American pressure keeps them aligned). They are not part of community on grounds of shared values, history or culture.
Monterenbas@reddit
Turkey is allied to no one but Turkey.
Catalani@reddit
Yet another pathetic display of complete vassalage. What credible threat does China represents to Europe? Were they the ones demanding sovereign EU territory while waging multiple wars of aggression through the world? The humiliation ritual shall continue.
PartySr@reddit
Yeah, I'm starting to think that these fuckers are actually planning to throw Turkey under the bus and allow Shitrael to attack Turkey.
And who needs Russian propaganda, when we have these idiots. They are harming not just EU, but NATO, Ukraine, and pretty much every single EU citizien.
And what a coincidence. Just when the genocidal maniacs have started to talk more about attacking Turkey.
RealAbd121@reddit
It won't work anyway, ironically, because they already did it before; they threw Turkey away when Russia tried fucking with them, so Turkey reoriented all its strategy into becoming a self-sufficient power.
NATO and the EU will order of magnitude more than Turkey would if Turkey were to leave, the only reason those idiots keep getting away with this clown behaviour is ironically that Turkey doesn't want to burn the bridges either, because even if it's "you lose a finger they lose an arm", they still really rather not lose a finger!
Britstuckinamerica@reddit
That's just wilful ignorance; Turkey hasn't seriously tried to join the EU in well over a decade and Erdogan is obviously far more interested in a neo-Ottoman Empire now in the Middle East...and who's to say it can't be Europe in the near future? I dislike Von der Leyen but she's not wrong here
BlackAfroUchiha@reddit
And that is based on what?
mostard_seed@reddit
Vibes
Britstuckinamerica@reddit
Funny, but surely someone interested in Africa would know about Turkish influence there?
mostard_seed@reddit
I do. However, I notice how calling it "trying to make a neo-Ottoman empire" is vibes-based conjecture. Feels like trying to force a historical context, with the emotional baggage such context would have for some.
Establishing military presence or influence, doing resource acquisition, or supporting friendly dictatorships to facilitate exploitation through neo-colonialism are not something unique to Turkey and do not really imply establishing a neo-Ottoman empire. Russia, the UAE, France, the US, and China, among others, all do this. How many Empires are being pined for in Africa right now, if so? Does the UAE want to restablish a caliphate? The neo-Soviet Union? French Empire 2?
Britstuckinamerica@reddit
Haha alright man, the Republic Of Türkiye is not interested in the EU; its government has for the past decade been trying to start a neo-colonialist empire that involves invasion, occupation, and exploitation. Is that less vibe based?
mostard_seed@reddit
Yes. It then raises the question of how this is incompatible with the EU, since it engages in all of this too. The only reason it would is because it infringes on EU's turf like in Cyprus.
Britstuckinamerica@reddit
That's a ridiculous point; as you know, France was a founding member of the EU not subject to the accession criteria. And after all, there is a LOT else wrong with Turkey that, say, the Croatia of 2013 is and was far better at. Arguing there's only one reason a country with an imperialistic, autocratic leader like Erdogan wouldn't fit in the European Union is farcical
Britstuckinamerica@reddit
Here's a solid overview of the history of the Turkish-EU bid.
Now that he's given up hope of that, Erdogan has been busy provoking EU and NATO member Greece (not to mention Cyprus), toeing the line between Russia and Ukraine, toeing the line between Russia and the West, toeing the line between Iran and the US, building his African empire in Somalia, Sudan, and Libya, building influence in Iraq, and invading, then heavily influencing, Syria.
TL;DR here's an article from 2019 about it and it's only developed since then
Cheesen_One@reddit
Turkey would never be able to join the EU anyway.
Northern Cyprus can not be resolved and EU accession will be blocked by Cyprus and Greece as long as it isn't.
So Turkey really is wasting it's time by trying. Only good thing about the EU accession Process is that the Reforms needed are actually pretty amazing reforms generelly anyway, even without eventual accession.
mdedetrich@reddit
They have been seriously and consistently trying to join EU, even under Erdogan.
Its just that it doesn't get anywhere because EU constantly blocks it, which is not surprising given how incompatible Turkey's authoritarian/totalitarian government is with EU
alekhine-alexander@reddit
This isn't anything new. Turkey becomes a European ally when Europe feels threatened by Russia. Other times Turkey is the enemy. This has been going on since 19th century.
Also it doesn't matter if Turkey tries to join, that will never happen. The accession criteria is a joke and EU has set precedence in letting in countries way off the acquis communitaire. It's a political decision and that's it.
Immediate_Gain_9480@reddit
Turkey is currently occupying Cyprus, a EU country and is actively persuing claims to the Griek mariteme zones. Another EU country. Yes Turkey is a active threat to the EU as a result.
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