Are most Serbs pro-Vučić (or pro-Dodik), Croats pro-HDZ, Bosniaks pro-SDA and Turks pro-Erdogan, who are living in EU and other western European countries?
Posted by posjetilac@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 136 comments
Lucifer_893@reddit
It’s easy to explain, they just go for money, not because they like the culture or anything. Most immigrants are economic immigrants.
SuedeJacketMonster@reddit
What exactly do they like about Russian culture?
Beli_feniks@reddit
Thank you. I'm no fan of Putin but it's easy to understand that they go anywhere for money not the culture.
Massive_Armadillo646@reddit
The authoritarian, clerical, violent, corrupt etc "culture" is the reason they have to emigrate in the first place, and if given the chance, they will ruin their new countries too. This "culture" destroys itself as soon as it prevails and is hence not a legitimate ideology.
Beli_feniks@reddit
If we're talking about the balkans no not really.
AvarageAmongstPeers@reddit
They do understand that life in Russia is poor because of their culture of corruption, right?
Bosnian-WarCriminal@reddit
Their culture is surpression, and do not realise that lifting that curtain, will usually also attack their homeland views.
Pretty_Nose_4079@reddit
Even more when into ur country culture mean propaganda and being pushed to go to war,so if u going for money,freedom and pacifist is a plus.
Double-Weight-6395@reddit
I do not think anything bad about those people.
Massive_Armadillo646@reddit
The people like the ones pictured? Their mindset is the reason behind everything that is bad in the world.
Defiant-Strength2010@reddit
- Actually one of the most toxic mindsets in the world
Double-Weight-6395@reddit
No, about hard working people who go around the world and work for a living.
WhispersInTheSub@reddit
Here’s the English translation:
«Russia also has money, but apart from Asia, no one goes there. Why don’t Romanians, who love the Russian world so much, go to work in Moscow or St. Petersburg?»
Realistic-Ad-4372@reddit
It's a sistem as a whole. You can't have decent a life for the commoner and dictatorships in the same system. We're all our actions and beleifs
Double-Weight-6395@reddit
Do you know that in Montenegro and Serbia during 2000 till 2010 there was more Romanian worker immigrants then any other? Usually involved in construction.
NoEatBatman@reddit
Lol 😂😂 you got the years off by a decade, romanians worked in Serbia before the war started, in the period you mentioned they were filling the worksites in Italy and Spain
Double-Weight-6395@reddit
Yeah before war as well. I remeber well seeing them after the war as well.
rewarrr@reddit
how the current russian government have to do with the culture?
teddyg1870@reddit
They are right wing people who emigrate to the west, only because the can't make a living at home. These are the people who are fed prpaganda through TV, facebook etc. Also they love authoritarian leaders who rule with "strong hands" aka beat up protestors, jail dissidents.
Tenchi_Muyo1@reddit
Pretty sure 90% of the migrants in EU go there for the money and will say their country is the greatest
OkoMushrooom@reddit
Some of us want to go there for the lifestyle and political freedoms they have.
svarga108@reddit
Countries in the center drain all the money from the peripheries. All the money is in the center, so people have to go to the center to work if they want to survive. Nothing to do with love, or even sense of justice.
Justanotherbastard2@reddit
Countries in the “periphery” have had a lower living standard for at least 150 years. Germany led the second Industrial Revolution from the mid 1800s, which resulted in a lot of European industry being concentrated there. Many of the current industrial giants, such as Bayer, originate from that period.
svarga108@reddit
More than 150years. When the goods are extracted to some empire, people are poor. And the industrial revolution allways goes hand in hand with colonisation and brutal exploatation; in German case mostly Namibia and few other African countries.
Common_Source_9@reddit
Which were a net drain on resources, for the ''world power'' dream.
Justanotherbastard2@reddit
“…the industrial revolution allways goes hand in hand with colonisation and brutal exploatation; in German case mostly Namibia and few other African countries.“
You’re making definitive statements about processes that are not well studied or understood even by historians. Colonialism and industrialisation were certainly strongly linked in Britain and France, but not in Germany, which gained its colonies late and only after it industrialised, more as a matter of prestige than for any rational economic reason.
There have been several British studies (the latest one from the IEA in 2023 I believe) that concluded that the empire was actually a net cost for the British state, that it contributed little to industrialisation, and that economically it only served the merchant elites who were able to exclude foreign competition from their own markets e.g. excluding Brazilian sugar from competing with British owned Caribbean plantations.
Even in instances, such as Leopold’s Congo free state, where the native population was forced to harvest rubber for the global markets, the profits did not contribute to Belgian industrialisation- they went directly to Leopold for his grand vanity construction projects.
In short, colonialism is not a prerequisite for industrialisation. Germany did not industrialise because of colonialism. And the current economic state of affairs in the Balkans is due to historical factors and not due to the German “centre” draining the Balkan “periphery”.
Beautiful-Dish-6275@reddit
Diaspora votea for HDZ, but HDZ is very pro EU.
They might be corrupt thieves, but they arent Russias corrupt thieves.
Sakky93@reddit
Because Croatian diaspora votes are mostly from Herzegovina, I think if you would look at votes of the diaspora from the EU, HDZ would not be leading.
Divisive_Ass@reddit
Source on that,kindly?
Divisive_Ass@reddit
I love to be your juden
Senior-Internal2692@reddit
I find the Serbian obsession with 'brotherhood with Russia' hilarious. Russia never helped them in the last few centuries; e.g. in the Bulgarian-Serbian war, Russia supported Bulgaria. In the 1990s, Russia offered Serbia nothing but "thoughts and prayers".
And, even the most fervent Serbian nationalists prefer the € instead of the Serbian dinar.
Fred_Neecheh@reddit
Yes and no. You had Russian interventions genuinely helping Serbia in 1830 (Adrianople) and 1877 (2nd war w Turkwy) and 1914 (WWI) , but also abandoning us in 1812, 1878 (San Stefano) and 1918 (Brest Litovsk). Red Army genuinely helped liberate Yugoslavia, but then break with Stalin was also decisive.
Still, fact that Serbia nevee experienced military occupaton by Soviets or Russians explains a lot. Also, the propaganda here is deafening.
Massive_Armadillo646@reddit
Hungary and Slovakia and Bulgaria were occupied so it explains the opposite - the occupation resulted with people adopting the mindset of the occupiers.
Both in 1914 and 1941 Moscow absolutely knew they won't be able to prevent occupation of Serbia by Germans and subsequent massacres but invited Serbia to war for their own purposes. (And in 1945 liberated many more innocent civilians of their lives on class enemy grounds than in any other Yugoslav republic)
Che_Varack@reddit
In the nineties they didn't offer taughts and prayers. They were amongst the first to recognize Slovenia and Croatia, they armed Croatia and voted twice on full UN embargo on Yugoslavia when even China obstained, making Yugoslavia fully isolated. The last bach of sanctions were lifted in 2002. So Russia wasn't on the side of Serbia in the 90's.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
Interestingly online, you see other people claim/highlight this Serbian Russian „brotherhood“ as Serbs themself.
and I agree Serbia should cut ties with Russia until Putin is gone but I thinks that’s energetic suicide currently
ruineditforgood@reddit
Turk here, I oppose erdoğan and I am skeptical towards eu/europe. So I stay in Türkiye and never think about immigrating.
dudthyawesome@reddit
Oh, a lot of Romanians in Italy, Spain, UK, and Germany are like this, voting "against the evil EU."
TheKindBear@reddit
Are Romanians in other countries, have a right to vote in your parliament and president elections? And do they vote for people, who are not pro EU, to be heads of your country, while not living in Romania? 🇷🇴 Asking because in Bulgaria, they do, they live in Western Europe, but vote (not all of them) for anti EU people. And this mentality, is because they are not very successful where they live, and want to keep Bulgaria in a bad condition , when they come back home for breaks, to be more. If our country (very fantastic scenario), climb to some adequate EU level, they will be nobody everywhere.
WasiX23@reddit
Well, here in Germany I saw that very much turks (who live here) voted in the last election for Erdogan. While they live in the opposite of an Erdogan ruled country.
Several_Score_4278@reddit
Germany is not the opposite of Turkey. They even support the government. Apart from the economy, there is not much difference between living in Turkey and Germany. They do not live there because of religious or political pressures. In addition, many of them were born there.
Massive_Armadillo646@reddit
All nonsense. Germany is liberal and, egalitarian social state. Turkey is oppressive and corrupt oligarchy (since you will obv need an explanation, it means only the elite gets freedom and justice and wealth)
Several_Score_4278@reddit
This supposedly egalitarian country was burning people 80 years ago. Thirty years ago, people crossing the border were being shot. Today, if you criticize Jews, you’ll be arrested. Perhaps their understanding of equality is changing. People was still going there to work. Erdoğan has been like this for the past 10 years, and he might change.
keenox90@reddit
Same in Romania. Altough I suspect they don't think so far as to keep their home country in a bad condition. They are just stupid people thinking they deserve more and believe the "nationalist" propaganda (which is formulated specially for them).
samir_saritoglu@reddit
For Moldovans - right the opposite.
vic_lupu@reddit
Basically the diaspora is what is keeping the EU way for Moldova.
Massive_Armadillo646@reddit
They think corruption is less damaging than being left without Russian money?
samir_saritoglu@reddit
Except Russian living diaspora
Massive_Armadillo646@reddit
How come?
Citaku357@reddit
No one said diaspora is full of smart people
P-l-Staker@reddit
Boy, let me tell you a thing about this little so called "Brexit" thing and our own "expats"...
Saalle88@reddit
Well not really but ok.
MitakOklagija@reddit
Well really but ok
Saalle88@reddit
Only on reddit.
Massive_Armadillo646@reddit
Only bc of Kosovo/bc he is perceived as proWest, ironically
MitakOklagija@reddit
And in real life, who is going to work in Russia?
Professional-Fee-488@reddit
What?
Massive_Armadillo646@reddit
He means Serbs emmigrate to the EU and not Russia even though most support the latter. Both of which is true.
Saalle88@reddit
Russians.
MitakOklagija@reddit
Who is talking a out Russians?
Saalle88@reddit
Ok nwm, you are right and all of that.
MitakOklagija@reddit
Thank you for acknowledging that
AmelKralj@reddit
Bosniaks definitely not. Many who left Bosnia in recent years left because of the shitty situation and SDA being in government until 2023, is given the fault for it.
No idea how the upcoming elections will work out as a lot of people aren't satisfied with the current coalition against SDA as well.
Massive_Armadillo646@reddit
The situation in the Federation is similar to what N Macedonia was a few years back and can be solved the same way - Boshniaks should stop preferring corrupt oligarchy over Croats
deviendrais@reddit
In the case of Serbia no. We had elections in 2023 and the diaspora was mostly against Vučić. When Vucic says that Belgrade is better maintained than Berlin it’s easy for the diaspora to instantly dismiss him as a retard
Massive_Armadillo646@reddit
The populists try to get a universal acclaim by pandering to all groups, which is why populis always backfires after a time when they get found out, as it is impossible to even pretend you're working for the benefit of even opposed voting groups (unless there's a hated enemy like liberals in the US or the US Americans for Iranians currently or Ukrainians for the Russians etc)
amazingamy19@reddit
Serbian diaspora protested a lot against Vučić last year.
I was in Frankfurt at the time the protest was held and a lot of people were protesting.
Massive_Armadillo646@reddit
Bc of Kosovo
NegotiationSweet5082@reddit
They vote for populist leaders because they don't have to deal with the shitty consequences. They wouldn't last a week in this country.
StPauliPirate@reddit
They would vote for Erdogan anyway, no matter where they live. Most Turks in Germany originate from Sivas, Kayseri, Corum, Trabzon, Konya….typical AKP strongholds. These people will support islamic-conservatism and islamism either way. It is a delusion they wouldn‘t support him, if they‘d live in Türkiye. When even Turks from that regions in Türkiye still vote for him, despite eating bread & noodles all day.
Citaku357@reddit
Islamist try not to live in western countries challenge (impossible)
Massive_Armadillo646@reddit
Hahaha
Fred_Neecheh@reddit
This
Anna_akademika@reddit
I think it's very unlikely that any country has every single person supporting the same leader. So yeah, some Serbs may be for Vučić or Dodik, but most of them? No way
ProfessionalShock425@reddit
Based. Here for this.
Massive_Armadillo646@reddit
The question was smth else
Massive_Armadillo646@reddit
Topic is about expats, not the majority of a country
NoSync22@reddit
Why would it be unlikely? Most of them could be 51%, it doesn’t need to be 100%.
Kaer__Morhen@reddit
Less than 50% go out and vote, of those 50% only about 20% with HEAVY vote manipulation are won by Vucic and he gets about 5% more with the powers of resurrection and summoning people from other countries
So who truly supports Vucic, likely less than 15% of the population but people don't want to waste their time with voting because "they're all the same"
Massive_Armadillo646@reddit
Almost all people who say "they're all the same" support (empirically and logically) the status quo/the corrupt established system/Vučić/SDA/HDZ..
Anna_akademika@reddit
51% is technically a majority. But politically speaking, that doesn't always equal "most people support him" in a meaningful way. It really depends on the system, like, is that 51% of voters? Of the whole population? Plus in a lot of places, you need way more than 51% to really say 'most people are behind him,' especially if turnout is low or the system is skewed. So yeah, some Serbs might support Vučić or Dodik, but it's still not 'most' in a real-world sense.
Putrid_Speed_5138@reddit
It's hard to know whether most Turks support Erdogan in EU countries because there is no such data.
Yes, 1.9 million Turks abroad voted in 2023 and Erdogan received 1.1 million votes. But because more than 7 million Turks live in the EU, the real turnout is very low and I doubt that "most" Turks support Erdogan today.
Older Turks who had once migrated to Europe from rural and less educated parts of Anatolia always tended to favor conservative parties at home. But they mostly vote for social democrats in the EU country.
And it really depends on the country. Wherever migrants historically faced more racism and discrimination (such as in most German and French speaking countries), Erdogan enjoys more support.
In other countries where Turks don't face racism and discrimination (such as Greece, Finland, Czechia, Bulgaria, Hungary, Canada, U.S. etc.), more than 70% voted for Erdogan's opponent in 2023.
Soleplain234@reddit
In so many words - no.
RustCohle_23@reddit
That's a classic - there was one "Bulgarian" guy voting in Germany with the Russian flag on his back :D wcyd
abandonedtulpa@reddit
No_Row_8284@reddit
This freedom of expression went too far in Europe...
SlaughterheartMagus@reddit
What do you mean too far? If he had a German flag on, he'd be arrested for being a nationalist/s
Similar-Speech2371@reddit
Was laberst du da für'n Schaß
Citaku357@reddit
Extrem nationalism isn't a good thing, but the opposite that westerners have for their own countries is also bad.
Defiant-Ad-8472@reddit
The irony in this is more layered than a damm baklava 😂
Greek_Bodybuilder995@reddit
Not even in Greece, where Putin would get 90% of the vote, did it ever happen
abandonedtulpa@reddit
Greece and the rest of the balkans can only dream of beating Bulgaria in idiocracy
Petrak1s@reddit
Yeah, stupidity is in our blood. :/
helterr_skelterrr@reddit
Retardness beyond comprehension
slysmile@reddit
For Turkish migrants it is very much class-based.
Gastarbeiter from the 60s-70s were rural, uneducated, extremely conservative people who were brought in because they were healthy enough to work for cheap. They and most of their descendants still support similar ideology and mostly vote for Erdoğan (though they are currently a little pissed because they can't just come to Turkey and flash their Euros).
Most of the recent (i.e. last couple of decades) migrants and expats, on the other hand, got there by getting jobs and establishing businesses in Europe. Those are educated professionals who were already very familiar with the western culture and progressive ideas, even if some don't support it. These people are rarely, if ever, pro-Erdoğan.
There are also Gulenist fugitives. Fuck them altogether.
TurkOmbre@reddit
You must put an end to the prejudices against Turks in Europe. Half of the Turks in Western Europe don't even vote; abstention is the main political party for Turks in Europe. Among those who do vote, there may be a few percent more pro-Erdogan voters than in Turkey, but the difference is far from significant. Proportionally, Turks in Turkey contribute much more to supporting Erdogan than Turks in Europe (because the majority don't vote).
kozmik_rakun@reddit
Votes from Germany were 75% pro-Erdogan in 2023.
TurkOmbre@reddit
No it was 67% And totally 35% (because 52% of Turks in Germany didn’t vote ! )
For Turkey : 52% voted for Erdogan and totally 45% voted for Erdogan (87% have voted in Turkey)
So the majority of Turks in Germany don't give a damn about the elections in Turkey and go about their lives normally, go on holiday to Spain without a care, live their lives, etc.
Turks in Turkey who only know Turks in Germany from hearing the noisy pro-Erdogan minority in Europe.
slysmile@reddit
So the majority of votes from German Turks went to Erdoğan.
Non-voters aren't a distinct "party", they agree with the status quo. If they didn't, they would vote.
Several_Score_4278@reddit
Is this a crime under the law? If not, what’s the issue? Most people go there for economic reasons. Or do we not envy the wonderful climate of the Netherlands and Germany while living in the mediterranean?
-imivan-@reddit
FUCK EU!!!!!!!!- Serb from Vieena
New_Accident_4909@reddit
They want to be winners, and only way to win is to keep your people down by voting for idiots.
Fred_Neecheh@reddit
Diaspora feels the need to compensate. In seriousness, its actually not that difficult for a Balkan person to assimilate in say Germany or Canada. So some of them, 2nd and 3rd generation resist that by being ultranationalist. And at that point hardly even speaking the language.
Whatever, as far aa I am concerned, we all make our choices. (war crininals are not my heroes or folkloric legends) but the problwm is some of those also vote in my elections.
Amd vote for the shittiest, autocratic, populist option, shitting on the EU while living in it and enjoying all its benefits.
Ill_Letterhead_2109@reddit
Low IQ
ZimnyKefir@reddit
As for Pole, It appears to me that Balkans didn't truly have a "privilege" to live under russian boot.
Badassscholar@reddit
Because in the West they're impoverished, second class citizens and in Russia and Turkey they're wealthier and seen as a prize pig.
It's like average Joe who goes to SE Asia, sees poverty and claims "they look so happy here, maybe we got it all wrong" and then goes back home to A/C.
FoxFort@reddit
Diaspora voting is what kills the progress. Some politician is the loudest on the news. And diaspora thinks he is the chosen one. While that, the loudest one is the most corrupt and destroying progress.
Those who temporaty left for work are up-to-date tend to either don't vote or vote for opposition.
Playful-Rope1590@reddit
I live in EU but I actually voted only once in a Bosnian election. And seeing how complicated they made it, I understand why not many do it. I don't know anybody actually doing it.
For me SDA just seems a very nationalistic party despite being socialists. And the last thing Bosnia needs is more nationalism, it's the reason why it has not evolved anywhere since independence. So I did not vote for them.
colola8@reddit
In Croatia there is no one pro Russia or any party pro Russia .
One-Yam8731@reddit
You can hate evil and at the same time go live where conditions are better even if thos conditions are based on slavery, colonialism and moder exploitation through technology.
One-Perspective-3750@reddit
Generally speaking, due to their own failure to integrate, learn the language or simply behave normal, they redirect all the frustrations towards the system and people of EU and imagine how it would all be easier if Russians/someone else run the place. Also high expectations. Not being able to buy a shiny 15 years old BMW after first paycheck also adds to the frustration.
And most certainly it’s not most of the Serbs in EU who support Vuic. I have met such people only online and they are probably his bots from somewhere in Serbia. I would argue that most of us evacuated and are living and working in EU because of Vuic.
Stverghame@reddit
People need to understand that people move for economic reasons, not for the love of nation or its politicians?
I love Persians, but I'd never live in Iran the way it is now. I strongly dislike German culture, German attitude, their behaviour towards us etc, but if I move there, I'd do so for the money, not because Germans are great.
dacassar@reddit
Ruskies as well. My god, Cyprus is full of such people.
samir_saritoglu@reddit
They are mostly Russian liberals. I can hardly believe that this immigration vawe support the current thing
dacassar@reddit
You didn't see what happened with those “liberals” on the invasion of Ukraine or the Crimea annexation “anniversary”. That's disgusting.
kaldunasololakeli@reddit
What happened?
samir_saritoglu@reddit
I guess noisy and drunk celebration with fireworks and such stuff.
samir_saritoglu@reddit
I see. That's probably a wealthy Russian people who have apartments there. Liberals are the other group and they definitely wouldn't celebrate it. As well as the most Russians in Russia don't celebrate it.
Double_Couple_988@reddit
Most, if not all, Serbs I know that left Serbia hate Vučić.
zpetar@reddit
No. Most Serbs are against Vučić but people are not voting. On the other side a lot of people are coerced to vote or even payed to vote for Vučić
08YOY80@reddit
russia is very good at propaganda and they are doing it systematically since soviet union times ,for far-left it's multicultural,anti-colinialist state, some force that opposing evil imperialistic west also direct successor of soviet union; for far-right it's "based Christian state" without gays and liberals , family values and so on . People nowadays barely reading anything besides articles, people don't check actually information when they are scrolling Instagram/tik-tok , it's easy to manipulate the masses when nobody is going to think about information that they are consuming.
Specialist_Elk140@reddit
People can like different countries for different reasons. The West is associated with exploitation against other countries, but living in Western countries is best for quality of life. Russia is more of a political ally from a long history with them and they share cultural similarities, religion etc. West for economy, Russia for politics. Both are good and evil in their own ways.
Specialist_Elk140@reddit
My understanding about Russia however is that pre-war, depending on the area, the quality of life is much better than media portrayals, but still not as good as the West. That still doesn't however mean that they're all depressed and drinking vodka is a rundown commie block.
Consistent-Low-0@reddit
why not expel people from EU on grounds of social media posts?
darth4nyan@reddit
Guy from Bosnia here. Most people I know and who live in EU, do not like those domestic parties. But my acquaintances living in Germany tend to love AfD, and hate immigrants (irony is lost on them)
time_observer@reddit
Russophiles are the most hypocrites. Almost none of them ever went or want to go to Russia.
Playful_Edge_6179@reddit
SDA is the cancer of bosnia, the party that killed thousands of people in many incidents, they tried to take the incident when a "tram killed a boy and cut of a leg of a girl" to their own benefit telling people to shout that the current system done that. On the other hand SDA sold Srebrenica (president Alija sold Srebrenica). When there was the biggest hunger and arab coutries were sending bags full of gold, wife of the president Alija Izetbegovic said: "Ostavite jednu vrecu mom bakiru (Leave one bag for my Bakir (son))". The whole party is build on connections, families, people geting doctor/nurse jobs with a 1 year course, slowly killing Bosnia from the inside out. Also protecting criminals that hurt people, their businesses, kill people and similar, they protect those crimilans for their own benefit. Not saying its only SDA, because other parties are as shitty as SDA, but yeah mostly SDA
ProfessionalShock425@reddit
Where do you get idea that most populas are for governments that likes to opress said populas, have unfair advantages on elections, have great influence in media that are mostly not objective and clearly in favour of groups close to ruling people and all have their finances in opaque?
MeowMoRUS@reddit
as the great ones say: It's better to love Russia from a distance
Equivalent-Water-683@reddit
Literally most immigrants are not extremely fond of the host countries in the EU anyway. Why should it be any different for the pro-russian immigrants? By the standards of the current immigration in EU, Id say the Serbian immigrants are probably among the most pro-EU immigrants they get.
Many-Rooster-7905@reddit
Well hdz is regularly winning in european countries
These-Ad-1669@reddit
Very accurate
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
the support for Vucic used to be much stronger, but nowdays its gone.
you had demonstrations in Vienna in support of the students and across other EU nations.
AirWolf231@reddit
For Croatia no, 62% of Croats went on the elections with HDZ getting 34% of the votes. So lets say roughly 1/4 of Croats are pro HDZ.
And even among thouse a lot of people only voted for HDZ because the alternative is somehow even more incompetent or somehow even more corrupt or somehow even more unorganised.
The matter of fact is that the opposition needs to pull their shit together, "We are not HDZ" is not a good sole tactic to based your campaign on.
Kreol1q1q@reddit
I don't get the Croat bit - HDZ is the most pro EU and anti-Russia party in the country.
SOHONEYSAME@reddit
for me,
"pro Erdogan"
"anti regime" for Serbia.
0ld_Snake@reddit
Just from the Bosnian perspective I'll say with confidence: NO.