How do you guys deal with engineers that don't try to learn themselves?

Posted by letsbefrds@reddit | ExperiencedDevs | View on Reddit | 37 comments

Our company decided to offshore some people so we hired like 2 senior full stack engineers + 2 mid level. It's been almost 9 months since their on boarding and I still have to hand hold them.

They don't put in the effort to learn the architecture, they don't write things down and I have to repeat the whole flow over and over again. Every time there's a bug they need to hop on a call. I feel like if they just slapped a debugger on the code and walked through a scenario they would have understood the problem i.g it didn't hit the "if" block.

Maybe im just not patience enough or maybe I'm just salty that im "SWE II" while they have a senior title?

How do you guys deal with this situation? I came back from a vacation last week and there was basically a SEV 2 bug that they just waited for me to come back to fix for almost 2 weeks!!

Sometimes I feel like I should just lie on my resume give myself "Senior Software Engineer" and just start shopping to see other positions.

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TopSwagCode@reddit

I feel like this is not only a them problem, but in general lack of documentation? "effort to learn the architecture, they don't write things down" - Things should be written down for entire team and new hires in the future.

Further more domain shouldn't be reading code and understanding if statements. It should be understanding the business and work (domain). There might be bugs in code that doesn't translate to what actually is meant to be doing.

Not saying they are doing a great job or bad job. But it sounds like there are some problems in general that needs fixing.

The best onboarding I have had is not just getting to know the code, but some employees / domain experts also onboarding me in "This is what we do and these are the processes".

Simply asking the developers to write personal notes is not going to scale, and you will have the same problem again and again.

Most places I have worked has had onboarding documents. Part of onboarding was to update the onboarding documents, when something has changed or something new has happened since last onboarding. Never has it just been a 1 shot follow guide, without any questions or bugs.

Simply calling your self a senior and applying other places wouldn't really help. Because it doesn't sound like your senior from this post alone. Sounds like you have a lot of domain knownledge in your current company and give great value. Thats great and all, but senior is also about mentoring / helping new hires and guiding them to grow. Senior should also be part of planning / scoping / roadmap.

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chickadee-guy@reddit

Docs require someone with a functioning brain to read and understand them.

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nana_3@reddit

Let them fail. And start shopping for other positions.

In the mean time:

Your goal is for it to be way more annoying for them to ask you to do it than to just do it themselves. Currently it’s just easier to make you do everything even if they have to wait for you to return to fix critical bugs.

My preferred method is every time they drag you into a trying to do their job for them just ask endless questions.

“Where does it stop? Where is the last point in the code it’s working? Oh you don’t know - ok what does the debugger show when you step through? You haven’t done that yet? That’s usually my first step, what’s your first troubleshooting step? Huh, why do you do that? What did you get when you did that? How does that help you know what’s going on?”

Also of note, these tactics: make everything an unbelievably drawn out debate about different approaches, even if you have to be both sides of the debate. And ignore / misinterpret requests for you to do things.

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letsbefrds@reddit (OP)

That sounds so exhausting on my end lol.

But maybe it's better than waking up to a "Hi x," do you have time?

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Which-World-6533@reddit

You need to stop responding to those requests.

If someone on the offshore team sends me a message I will only reply to it when I'm good and ready. And if that means 3pm my time, then so be it.

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chickadee-guy@reddit

Hah, they stay up that late on my team comba that. Ive seen them online until 3-4am IST

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ShroomSensei@reddit

Then do even less and make them do the work for you. I agree with the parent comments incentive but I am a bit more abrasive with it.

“Okay what did the debugger show you when you step through it?”

‘I haven’t done that’

“Okay well come back to me when you do! That’s just what I would do on this call with you and there’s no point in both of us sitting and watching it.”

‘Oh.. okay’

Then they never reach back out because it was a stupid ass bug that would be obvious had they even taken the time to look at the logs or the debugger. If they DO come back it may actually be complex enough to warrant my help. Do this 5 times in a row and soon they will stop bothering you first.

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PracticallyPerfcet@reddit

The offshore devs probably have 10 other companies they’re working for

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fued@reddit

give them ownership and responsiblities and let them fail.

if you solve every issue, they are going to learn that ownership doesnt matter

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Curious_Owl197@reddit

Companies that offshore to garbage cost centers in the name of cost reduction should also be allowed to experience a reduction in profit caused by said garbage. Let them fail!

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CarryAdditional4870@reddit

I agree!

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letsbefrds@reddit (OP)

They're on a really big feature and I'm just watching them implement it... It's honestly really scary because I can already see how buggy it is...

I don't want this to fall back on me when my manager goes surprise you're back full time on this project.

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Icy_Accident2769@reddit

Part of being senior is ownership. Let them fail, watch it burn, get called in for help and at that moment before doing anything you discuss salary

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AccountExciting961@reddit

You need to talk to you manager and find out whether they are aware of those risks. The worst case - you will mitigate "when my manager goes surprise" part. The best case - they will be concerned with this more than you are, while also having more tools to solve it.

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fued@reddit

All I'm hearing, is these guys are creating job security for you, and making your chances of promotion/payrise better, and you are upset with them? haha

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setzer7@reddit

This comment is gold

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Abject-Bandicoot-346@reddit

debugger seems like a missed opportunty here

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superdurszlak@reddit

The way I handle it is that I get reported whenever I refuse to hand-hold them, including situations like "ok so I'm on PTO for the next two weeks, if you need support ask someone else from my team".

Alternatively, responsibility for irresponsible coworkers gets shifted onto me, regardless of my pushback.

Then, the company tries to curb discontent out of me and at least force me to pretend I'm happy with the way it goes, if forcing me to genuinely like it fails.

Lastly, I get poor performance reviews because on one hand I over-deliver, but on the other I look overwhelmed and depressed and they don't like it when people look overwhelmed and depressed. Being a "me" issue, this obviously needs to be coached and curbed out of me.

Then I quit because I cannot handle this anymore.

Corporate jobs are hell on Earth.

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NeloXI@reddit

Don't offshore. This is a predictable outcome. You played yourselves.

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nkondratyk93@reddit

nah at nine months you stop coaching and start documenting for the eventual PIP.

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olzk@reddit

They don't put in the effort to learn the architecture, they don't write things down and I have to repeat the whole flow over and over again. Every time there's a bug they need to hop on a call. I feel like if they just slapped a debugger on the code and walked through a scenario they would have understood the problem i.g it didn't hit the "if" block.

For seniors too? Well if yes and the seniors are senior, smells like micro-management to me. If you don’t let people be responsible for their work, they will simply serve. What do you expect from servants other than grunt work done only when ordered

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wbqqq@reddit

You need a decent vacation, 2-3 weeks, to allow them sink or swim.

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Idea-Aggressive@reddit

Do you provide and update documentation? Most developers I’ve worked in my career do not. Myself, I update the docs or rephrase. It’s more scalable than doing 1-to-1s. I also build tools, patterns, modules, etc. All of that improves the DX.

Finally, if you don’t do any of that and they keep coming, what if your team is the actual problem?

I’ve worked with teams in the US, top product companies in infrastructure, etc names which you’d be familiar; and can ensure you that similar patterns found amongst most dev teams. Possibly, there’s about 1/10 people that do the core work the others are mainly meeting attendees. With LLM these people stay for longer without producing much, some are not even aware of their own lack of skill to build or lead.

Could it be the case?

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peach113@reddit

You can't.

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Icy_Accident2769@reddit

It’s 100% India. I’ve seen off shore work with Serbians and other east block European countries as well. But it always fail with Indians, it’s the culture mismatch that is too big. Combined with the endless lies and beating around the subject. They say yes on everything, but can never follow through if they even understand what they said yes on.

Btw OP, you hired Indian seniors. That means 3 years of experience after college.

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positivelymonkey@reddit

Deal? Not my job.

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chikamakaleyley@reddit

dude, tell your manager they aren't cutting it, they need to know that

if they're on contract they're not fulfilling what's asked of them, they should just find a contractor who does meet your expectations

it's not wrong to voice these opinions, because its a least impacting your own time dedicated to your tasks

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chikamakaleyley@reddit

to be more clear, if they are in fact contract - usually contractors are hired because there is a need for specialization, and there's an expectation that they will come up to speed faster

like imagine a Senior hired for a 6-month contract, they're more or less expected to hit the ground running

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ZunoJ@reddit

You just let them fail. You make very transparent what portion of their work is actually your work and how much they impact your productivity

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mxldevs@reddit

If they are the seniors and you're lower in rank, why are you the one held responsible for the their failures?

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FrynyusY@reddit

Welcome to dealing with Indian offshore devs. After few years you realize you can not change them no matter how much you try. Stop the hand-holding and doing their work for them, either they can do the work at this point or they should fail and be fired. There is a reason most companies follow the management cycle of "let's reduce costs by offshoring" followed by "this has been a failure and everything is messed up" and return to onshoring.

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