Roman Empire, Byzantine Empire, Ottoman Empire, Austro-Hungarian Empire, SFR Yugoslavia: Considering these, isn't the current divided state of the Balkans actually the "abnormal" one?

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ugrasergun@reddit

There was peace in Balkans when Ottomans ruled it.

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There were rebellions and wars, of course, but the Ottoman Empire governed the Balkans in a way that allowed many communities to keep their identity. Groups like the Greeks were able to preserve their language and remain Eastern Orthodox Christianity under Ottoman rule.

While not perfect, this long continuity shows that different cultures and religions were able to survive rather than be erased. You may not agree for various reasons, but the fact that communities like the Greeks still speak their language and practice Eastern Orthodox Christianity after centuries under the Ottoman Empire suggests that complete cultural assimilation was not enforced, if it had been the goal, it likely could have been achieved over such a long period.

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Palagrin@reddit

I mean... there were also a couple of genocides we seem to be ignoring here...

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KaraTasak35@reddit

Which genocides? Isnt genocide a stretched weird word nowadays, everyone calls everything a Genocide haha. Please mention here what genocides and please prove that they were Genocides, not war or raiding etc, because war is something else.

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SE_prof@reddit

They are documented though... Armenians, Greeks, Assurians... Just because you deny them doesn't make them go away. Unless you're an ostrich.

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Mysterious-Put1459@reddit

There were rebellions and wars, of course, but the United States governed the America in a way that allowed many communities to keep their identity. Groups like the Native Americans were able to preserve their language and remain Indigenously traditional under American rule.

While not perfect, this long continuity shows that different cultures and religions were able to survive rather than be erased. You may not agree for various reasons, but the fact that communities like the Native Americans still speak their language and practice traditional Indigenous rituals after centuries under the United States suggests that complete cultural assimilation was not enforced, if it had been the goal, it likely could have been achieved over such a long period.

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KaraTasak35@reddit

The comparison with the United States and Native Americans doesn’t really work at all.

The Ottoman Empire was a multi ethnic imperial system that ruled through a religious and communal structure (often described as the millet system), where different groups were largely governed through their own religious communities. This allowed groups like Greeks, Armenians, Jews, and others to maintain their language, religion, and internal institutions for centuries, even though there were inequalities and periods of conflict.

By contrast, the United States developed as a settler colonial state, where expansion involved large scale land displacement, forced relocation, and deliberate assimilation policies toward Native Americans, including boarding schools and bans on language in many periods.

So the key difference is structure and intent: one system primarily governed diverse populations within an imperial framework, while the other expanded by replacing and absorbing populations on the land it took control of.

Because of that, pointing to ‘some identity surviving’ doesn’t prove both systems worked the same way or that cultural pressure was absent in one case, it just shows that identity can survive under very different historical conditions.

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Mysterious-Put1459@reddit

Sorry but halfway through that reply I started laughing on how obliviously bizarre of an AI response you've posted. You see the persistence of those ethnic identities as a proof of the Ottoman rule's leniency and peacefulness but the existence of Native Americans and their traditions is not proof of American leniency and peacefulness. Instead you are talking about American displacement and assimilation of Natives. Son, the Turks displaced and assimilated a lot of people too. How come there are so many Turks still here? How come there are Muslim Slavs?

So, the key difference in reality is that the Balkan countries got liberated. If that hadn't happened the Turks would still dominate all those territories and societies. The Native Americans are still governed by the United states. If they were liberated in the 19th century, you wouldn't be saying those things now. Sure, talk about liberty, rights and integration of the modern era but it is not about that.

Not to mention the peace you talk about in the Balkans basically means "Balkan nations didn't fight each other while under Ottoman rule". Yeah, sure. But we fought the Ottoman rule instead. It wasn't like we were so happy to be Ottoman subjects that we became peaceful to one another. Get a grip

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SE_prof@reddit

Yes in periods. When they started hanging priests though.... Something went wrong...

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KaraTasak35@reddit

Yeah, there were definitely brutal periods, especially during uprisings like the Greek War of Independence. Repression happened, including executions of clergy, but that was tied to rebellion and political control rather than a constant, empire-wide policy to eliminate a religion. It shows things could turn harsh in conflict, not that coexistence didn’t exist overall.

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SE_prof@reddit

Are we trying to justify oppression???

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KaraTasak35@reddit

i dont understand what you are talking about.

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Crypto-KeeperALB@reddit

U tried killing Albanian culture and identity and almost succeeded so no thanks

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KaraTasak35@reddit

A large portion of Albanians converted to Islam over time and many did so because it opened doors socially, politically, and economically. Albanians weren’t marginalised in the system, quite the opposite, many rose to very high positions, like Mehmed Ali Pasha and the Köprülü family. That doesn’t happen in a system focused on destroying nations. There were definitely pressures, like in any empire, overall way less than any other empire, but saying there was an attempt to erase Albanian identity ignores the fact that the language, traditions, and identity clearly survived. That points more to integration and opportunity than forced assimilation mate.

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Hefty_Jaguar4305@reddit

There was peace...see Ada Kaleh island...the sunken island...read it...and you will see it was peace there.

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SE_prof@reddit

I knew Wikipedia is fake content...

Category:Rebellions in the Ottoman Empire - Wikipedia https://share.google/6Ggi6ejHTCzUg1r7n

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Hefty_Jaguar4305@reddit

Why wikipedia? Ada Kaleh have nothing to do with it.

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SE_prof@reddit

But Wikipedia has a category with hundreds of pages of revolts and rebellions throughout the history of the Ottoman empire.

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Hefty_Jaguar4305@reddit

Look: I can't comment on that. The history of the Ottoman Empire that my paternal ancestors experienced was different. Isolated on a small island, in their own world. The Turks there had no problems with Romanians, Serbs, Hungarians, etc. On the contrary. And later they came to Turkey, to East Thrace, as new settlers, to a small, remote hamlet deep in the forest. The place is uninhabited today. They never had anything to do with you Greeks. So if you Greeks hate the Turks... that doesn't apply to every Turk.

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SE_prof@reddit

I don't hate anyone. The comment was that there was peace in the Ottoman empire and I provided evidence that countered this argument. Maybe Ankara was always peaceful too, but a single place doesn't represent a whole empire. It's like the Brits claiming Pax Brittanica because London was ok at the time...

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volcano156@reddit

Most of these uprisings, and the biggest ones occurred in the 19th century, basically in the empire's final century of its +600-year existence. Weak central authority, the rise of nationalist movements, constant provocation and support from super powers such as Austria, Russia, UK, and ofc religious factor, were the main reasons. Also, before the 19th century, large and destructive uprisings were much more common in Anatolia

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WasiX23@reddit

"I have brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to my new Empire".

That's in my mind if someone talks about peace under dictatorship.

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chrstianelson@reddit

When historians talk about Pax Britannica, Pax Romana, Pax Ottomana etc. the implication isn't that there were no conflicts, but that it was a period of relative stability compared to the regions' previous, sustained period of instability.

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SE_prof@reddit

Then should have named it Stabilitas Brittanica.

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Hefty_Jaguar4305@reddit

diaspora greek?

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SE_prof@reddit

No why?

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Critical-Ad-8507@reddit

Tell Vlad the Impaler about it.

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Silver_Ad8@reddit

Nope, but Middle East yeah.

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Archaeopteryx111@reddit

Not even then.

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Worried-Owl-9198@reddit

The kind of question only a last glass could inspire.

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alkorisno@reddit

It is actually a good observation. Current western media is pushing for division in order to conquer it. Then they only unite them under their rule. Same as germany and italy did during WW2

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alkorisno@reddit

During nazi occupation they ware all diveded on paper, but all subjects of germany and italy. It is like that now as well, Germany and Italy have the most factories, mines and soldiers. It is a devide and conquer strategy.

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Archaeopteryx111@reddit

Yeah, Romania should rule it all.

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Ok-Priority253@reddit

Honestly out of every country I think that might be the least controversial

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Archaeopteryx111@reddit

Because we’re more chill lol.

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VX81GR@reddit

Yeah go ask the Magyars about it

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int23_t@reddit

By that logic Montenegro would be the best country to rule Balkans as they just chill and do nothing else

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Insert_0riginal_name@reddit

Nah too tired for that, if we weren't all of europe would be montenegrin fr fr

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Archaeopteryx111@reddit

Yeah, but there’s only 600K of them.

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ZAMAHACHU@reddit

Even better. Easy to revolt if they fuck it up.

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DriveByAtanCivciv@reddit

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Worried-Owl-9198@reddit

I believe Romania deserves a shot. What is Romania promising?

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Archaeopteryx111@reddit

Țuică (raki).

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SoulEkko@reddit

Free papanasi for everyone!

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ugrasergun@reddit

A very convincing argument.

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Worried-Owl-9198@reddit

Fair enough

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CalarasiPoznasi@reddit

Free gypsies for everyone

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BipolarBear123@reddit

No empire or kingdom can blend the Balkan nations together XD

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Sea_Gap_6569@reddit

Interestingly, Greek empire didn’t show any interest, although centered at balkans. Somehow Afghanistan was more appealing to Alexander than balkans

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ismellsomethinggood@reddit

I feel some history is missing, there is theory he was searching glory by conquering old adversary in Asia and Balkans were not important, but I think that cannot be the case, he had some deal for sure.

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danRares@reddit

The general left to.rule macedonia tried to conquer dacia in order to show Alexander his wits but he lost and was forced to give his daughter into marriage to the dacian king.

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throwawayy00223@reddit

What? It was just where "civilization" was before that. The Balkans were full of, to the greeks "barbarians". Even macedonians themselves were considered barbaric by other greeks. On the other hand, to the east were great empires with millenia of history and great armies. If Alexander conquered the Balkans that'd be no success. It's like if China succefully conquered Mongolia.

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treba_dzemper@reddit

But we know that "barbaians" hubris to be completely historically innacurate, and so did he, as a Macedonian with allegedly Epirian mother, he knew it even better.

The Histrians, Liburians, Daorson, Epirus etc. all relatively developed nations, and many with heaps of Greek influence too.

The true reason was the second one except not really "because it was a challenge". If he broke the enemies with actual power that have ravaged Greeks for centuries, he'd make a safe world. Much like the emperors who tried uniting China, he waged war because he thought that would bring eternal peace. He wanted the world to flourish in peace. And no threat was coming from the northwest.

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minus_uu_ee@reddit

Well, you got your national identities. Congratulations, I guess.

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Ok_Tie_7564@reddit

No, the age of empires is over.

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brnkse@reddit

We should start a movement for the greater balkan empire. And then start another one to destroy it.

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KorolEz@reddit

Most of them are part of the EU so not really divided

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BardhyliX@reddit

None of the empires you named cared about ethnic borders, nationalism did not exist until late era of the Ottomans and Austro-Hungarians.

The SFR of Yugoslavia also tried to pretend ethnic lines did not exist while simultaneously working around them, hence the breakdown of the country into what it is now.

The Roman/Eastern Roman Empire was also broken into lines, the latin and greek. What is now North Albania, Kosovo Serbia... etc were all part of the Latin line, while below as the Hellenic/Greek zone of influence so there was always some type of divide.

For Example Justinian I was one of the few Emperors of the ERE whose native language was not greek, but rather Latin as he was born in what is now Modern day Macedonia to a thraco-illyrian family above the Hellenic line.

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Duncekid101@reddit

Small disambiguation, it is not precisely clear where Justinian was born. Procopius mentions Tauresium as his birthplace, but we can't say for sure where that village was. It is often claimed that he was born around Naissus (Niš), and/or his ~ memorial seat/vanity project - Iustiniana Prima (Caričin grad, The Empress' City, near Lebane). But I've also seen the claims that he was born around Iustiniana Secunda (Ulpiana, Lipljan) or Scubi (Skoplje). Anycase, he comes definitely from somewhere closeby.

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mentalmike9@reddit

Modern nation states in general are fairly new

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Archaeopteryx111@reddit

So is ethnicity.

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Pidrshrek@reddit

First Bulgarian empire.

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akvarista11@reddit

Based

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CasperGwamm@reddit

Thing is, the region wasn't united under the Ottomans. It was genocided and exploited.

Fuck the Ottomans.

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RustCohle_23@reddit

You forgot one empire, malaka.

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nomemory@reddit

After we unite in whatever empire you would like, can we please attack Hungary so we can make it Balkan after the conquest?

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Malecord@reddit

All those empires fall for a reason boy.

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Efficient_Finance935@reddit

If Yougoslavia was really a sovereign community as it claimed to be and not just Russia's crutch through Serbia, the whole region would have known peace a while ago. But, no. We cannot live without a russian trojan amongst us. Now that we got rid of Orban, we have Bulgaria now ramping up.

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delerium1state@reddit

All Slavs should unite as natural course of events.

The divide us form begging of time.

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blitzfreak_69@reddit

They don’t divide us. We divide ourselves. For fuck’s sake the Greeks wrote in the 6th century when the first Slavs arrived to the Balkans:

They are easily bribed, they are discordant, and they cannot stand each other

Straight from the Strategikon.

Nothing had changed since.

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Archaeopteryx111@reddit

Don’t forget that Bohemia’s (medieval Czechs) economy was sustained by the Slavic slave trade.

The polish lithuanian commonwealth was built upon the backs of Ukrainian serfs, and Russia is the “prison of nations” lol.

This is without even talking about all the Balkan-Slavic conflicts between Bulgaria, Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia…etc.

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pastorok21@reddit

Who are you referring to when you say “they” ??? Who are our dividers???

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theDivic@reddit

Pro Russian Yugoslavs were sent to a island labor camp called Goli Otok in Croatia.

When I read comments like this one I think it should have been used for a more diverse population.

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Svez1@reddit

You are vibe commenting stuff, saying that Serbia within Yugoslavia was "Russian crutch" while Tito and Stalin were enemies and support for Stalin during the times could get you imprisoned is diabolical. Not even mentioning the fact that Yugoslavia was one of the founding members of non-aligned movement that didnt want to be part of eastern or western sphere but wanted to be its own thing on global political scene.

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iheartloud420@reddit

It was literally illegal to be pro russian in yugoslavia lol

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Silver_Ad8@reddit

Yugoslavia Russia's crutch?

Yugoslavia that split in 1948 and even the first one didn't have relations with Moscow until 1939?

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Imaginary_String_814@reddit

It was sovereign but incompetent af.

I mean the split between Yugoslavia and the Ussr is pretty known.

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be_happy_Attila@reddit

Its just a small paus. Astro Hungary rematch soon

ALL HAIL ASTRO HUNGARY, WE WILL TAKE BACK ERDÉLY

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Archaeopteryx111@reddit

lol. That hasn’t worked too well the past few times. Take a break from irredentism.

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Hefty_Jaguar4305@reddit

Please: Color the island of Gökceada red, it is Turkish NOT greece.

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Imaginary_String_814@reddit

No

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The_Thighbiter@reddit

If there is no Habsburg empire there is no Yugoslavia, so we can see 2 big mistakes

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TheETERNAL20@reddit

Habsburg Empire is fine the problem was the wrong Empire. Had they focused on the German states and propped up friendly Romania, Greece or whoever asides from Serbia they could've survived.

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The_Thighbiter@reddit

What would it mean to focus on the German states? Compete with Prussia to form Germany? Habsburgs are not Habsburgs without it's non German components, as majority of the empire was not even German, it would not be able to compete with anyone besides Serbia, which ended up happening anyway

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TheETERNAL20@reddit

They don't focus upon their non German states like Kingdom of Hungary, Poland, Ukraine, Romanians, Serbs, Slovenes, Italians. Rather they never focus on them to begin with and focus upon Germany especially after the Napoleonic Wars. There was the idea of Big Germany which included Austria and if they were in a better position Prussia wouldn't be able to unify Germany.

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