LPCAMM2, 22% increase in battery size, brand new efficient bright high contrast VRR matte display that is also touch screen, larger haptic touchpad, better chasis build, side firing Dolby Atmos certified speakers and cheaper starting price PTL!? These are some really nice upgrades
The Macbooks definitely have some kind of weird grounding thing going on too, there's often a particular tingling sensation when you touch the chassis while charging. Been a common issue across multiple Apple products for at least the last decade. But it doesn't seem to affect the operation of the system, just a weird sensation while touching it.
I noticed this on my M4 MBA as well, but I was able to resolve it by flipping the power adapter around (as in, plugging it in the other way up, since it isn't polarized).
Yeah there are people that have written about it, the whole chassis has a charge when charging with the magsafe connection, it's not dangerous but the tingling sensation is kinda annoying.
I mean that’s fine, the problem with the framework is it actually shorts somewhere and it reboots with dead WiFi adapter. This breaks any sleep routine if it happens while in my bag, and kills it faster than it already drains since it waits for my disk unlock key
It's the lack of grounding (third pin of the plug). The standard framework charger has a grounded plug. I have had the same "tingling" on multiple Surface and MacBook devices disappear when using the grounded charging adapter, and was present on the Framwork when using a thunderbolt docking station with no ground wiring. It's not dangerous or doesn't affect the device
Dolby Atmos is no joke on mobile devices. It sounds phenomenal on my Galaxy Tab 8 Plus. Idk how they work their magic but the sound stage is so big and directional sound is no joke
Luckily there's about 10 other comparable panther lake laptops (with nice screens too) so eventually you'll see deals on them.
Unless you're ok with paying 200-400 for the extra modularity and feature-set, then you don't need to got with the framework. The field is stacked this generation.
Compared with laptops with equivalent specs and quality it's actually pretty cheap. The Dell xps 13 with an Intel ultra x7 and 32gb of ram is $400 more expensive than the framework with those specs.
If they already have to go outdated intel 13th gen for the 12” only for it to still be that expensive, I don’t think a MacBook Neo tier laptop was ever in the cards.
I got the first one because I believed in the mission, and dreamed of never having to reinstall an OS on a laptop I never have to replace (except part by part).
Now what they're delivering looks phenomenal and is actually exciting beyond its original niche. And I can upgrade piecemeal as I want to, which is just rad.
The thing is, the upgrades are so expensive you could legitimately get an entirely new, genuinely very good laptop for the price a lot of the time. Mainboard upgrades without ram or storage considered make no sense imo, and while sure getting a new trackpad or screen is genuinely nice, if you had bought a different laptop than the framework you could have had a high refresh rate OLED or something this whole time.
I like the mission of framework too, and I get why the prices are high, but until the prices make sense I just can't justify it.
Upgrading to a brand new upper mid tier laptop every three years makes more sense. And you get brand new everything not just the few parts you pay to replace.
Is it expensive or is it just hardware is expensive right now with the datacwnter crunch? I an not sure anything else in its market segment with similar specs is much cheaper ATM.
Framework has always been hyper expensive. Their 7840U laptops were always $500 more than any competitor.
This stuff is complicated by the lack of availability of Intel Core Series 3 and the fact that it kinda seems like Intel is subsidizing pricing of it. (The price difference between AMD and Intel makes no sense if you look at mainboard pricing, it implies that the Intel motherboard is like $200 total)
If you look at the AMD models, $2099 for a Ryzen 350 is INSANE.
You can get a Zenbook 14 OLED with the same storage, ram and a much faster 285H for a legitimate $700 less.
Unless you're claiming they're more prone to break that doesn't seem like a bad thing at all. Even if you spend 50% of the price upgrading it in 5 years, that must be compared with buying a new laptop instead.
The Framework is a worse deal basically every time. And you're stuck with the speakers, touchpad, keyboard, display, etc that you initially bought. Framework is essentially sunk cost fallacy made into a company.
Except you can literally upgrade all of those lol... notice how the old boards are all compatible with the new chassis and battery?
Also... they're website pricing for the 32gb lpcamm is super high, I found a set from bestbuy for 250, which while high is far more competitive
Yea so now you've dumped how much into this upgraded Framework laptop? Like 3 grand? For a mediocre laptop. Instead of buying like a $1000 MacBook Air and then selling it 5 years later for $500 and buying another $1000 MacBook Air..... The financials make zero sense for Framework, and they know this which is why they are going all in on the Linux schtick. They are going after the audience where value doesnt matter as much as ethos.
I mean lol, the macbook air is not the competition here, it's the 14" pro. With edu discount, the base m5 pro 14" w/ 32gb (some of us need memory for work lol) and 1tb is $2k. The ultra 7 13 pro is 1735 (I'm adding some cards) + 250 for 32gb of ram + idk how much for a 1tb drive, if you hunt you can still find ok prices. That's uh... effectively the same as that macbook lol within 100 bucks (and runs linux... or windows...)
The math is the same for whatever level of laptop you need. The Macbook is cheaper up front, will last longer, and retains its value like 800x better than the Framework. A person buying a Framework laptop today is basically guaranteed to spend more money over time trying to upgrade their laptop vs just buying a good quality alternative and then selling it and buying a new laptop when needed.
Idk what you're bizarre beef is here, who brought up resale? Comparable build quality now so that's mostly a moot point, not the stupid glossy antiglare that apple applies that then fails/erodes from the keyboard for lack of a better term, a touch screen, and uh... why would I end up spending more on the framework over time? I'm not forced to upgrade, most likely I'd do it once every 4-5 years... still cheaper than selling a macbook pro and buying a new one with far less hassle. A new mainboard is less than $800, which while not cheap is certainly less than a new macbook pro.
Your point is valid for the regular 13... that machine is a bit silly price-wise... the new one? Far less so given the much better cpu/chassis/screen/trackpad
Lets see what the reviews look like for Frameworks new models before we start slobbing their knob. Every laptop review I've seen for one of their laptops has been damning.
And IDK if you've done the math on your Macbook Pro example, but it would still absolutely be cheaper to sell your 5 year old Macbook Pro and buy a new one, and you get the benefit of getting a brand new everything with the new Macbook. And how is replacing a motherboard more of a hassle than replacing a whole laptop???? That makes zero sense.
A lot of people online love to have "upgrades" as the end-all, be-all but really it's sort of meaningless for 99% of people out there besides enthusiasts. At the end of the day a laptop is a tool meant to accomplish other tasks. Most people buy a laptop, keep it for a few years, and then think "oh I need a new laptop" and just buy a new one. At some point the laptop becomes a Ship of Theseus with the only original component being the case and at that point you've saved nothing.
The Macbook Neo is repairable for everything anyone would actually need to fix on their own, and that's all most people need.
It would be one thing if these laptops came with absolutely ridiculously fantastic displays, speakers, keyboards, touchpads, build quality etc and the only thing you ever needed to upgrade was the motherboard and those upgrades were reasonable. But thats not how Frameworks laptops have been at all.
The Macbook Neo is repairable for everything anyone would actually need to fix on their own, and that's all most people need.
Very true. I think most laptops are repairable in that sense now with ebay existing. I just repaired a niche multi year old Chromebook by replacing the motherboard. Was very simple.
I’m debating on if I want to get the framework or just a used Thinkpad. The thinkpad is more reasonable in every way but I do think supporting frameworks mission is good.
Wow they are using CAM modules that’s so damn cool. I might be tempted to pick one up. Was gonna replace my M1 with M5, but the “Mac Pro of Linux” is something I can get behind
This is not undercover framework marketing. They used the same term in the announcement video, which is probably why the original commenter put it in quotes.
And as mentioned, the performance of both Panther Lake and M5 SoCs are known.
not really, in all honestly. AMD nor Intel have made something akin the M Chip unified memory, in efficiency and bandwidth. The new M5 Max on the current Macbook Pros reach upto 614GB/s of memory bandwidth, it's a breast through and through
They are using a shared pool of memory that gets segmented like they always have for iGPUs, but they don't share memory addresses. You can't do CPU operations on GPU memory and vice versa.
Apple clearly stated "all of the technologies in the SoC can access the same data without copying between multiple pools of memory": https://youtu.be/5AwdkGKmZ0I?t=464
To me that statement makes it clear that CPU and GPU aren't merely sharing the same memory with dynamic allocation.
That's part of what they implemented, yes, but the marketing term "unified memory" may or may not refer to that.
Also, even with split memory pools, you can still hand off pointers without a copy, though there's still more to Apple's implementation than just the lack of copy.
Okay that's fair and you definitely know much, much more about the topic than I do. It's unfortunate that Apple does not give out more information, in practice it doesn't matter to me how they reduce performance losses and avoid the extra copying but it would still be interesting to learn how they implemented it.
From what I've read of the Asahi GPU drivers, it seems to be at least capable of both. For instance the GPU MMU uses AArch64 formatted page tables. I don't know the specifics of Apple's driver stack though; there could be some weird software restriction.
Yes, afaik, it is. But the term "unified memory" means a bunch of different things to different people, not necessarily the sum total of Apple's implementation.
You say that, but have you seen any of the billion blog posts about "Unified Memory"? Complete crapshoot whether people even know it's DRAM. Half the Apple sub seems to think it's on die.
Dont get hyped for marketing terms man, as I said in another post, apple is simply dynamically shared memory space, the others is static. Its not a huge difference especially since the increase in some cases. 4GB lost out of 128GB is not a make it or break it.
So, just so that I understand this correctly. Let's say you have 1 mb of data in memory the gpu can manipulate this and the cpu can also manipulate it?
At the same time, I guess no.
But the memory area isn't assigned to be either gpu or cpu?
*conditions apply: access is controllable by the programmer, memory read/writes should be synchronized, there may be performance differences in how memory is read/write depending on what access flags are set and so on
You can allow Linux to dynamically make it available with GTT - the 64GB HX370 I'm tinkering with will cheerfully make 48GB available. It's still not amazing for inference, but it's better than I thought it'd be :)
Intel/AMD “shared memory” still involves separate access paths and often data movement, while Apple’s unified memory is a single physical pool with equal, simultaneous access across all compute units that’s the actual difference.
All shared memory pools can be zero-copy if they use the correct API, the issue is windows. Look up AMD ROCm / HIP & search for Fine-Grained Memory Access and Linux HMM.
Apple is just doing it by default, universally, and managed by OS. All of which are great points.
On Linux its managed by the kernel, drivers, and can be affected by developers.
On Windows it requires some minimal static allocation and the rest is dynamic but completely managed by developers.
You’re not wrong that APIs like ROCm/HIP and Linux HMM enable zero-copy semantics but that doesn’t mean the underlying system is equivalent.
The key difference isn’t whether zero-copy is possible. It’s whether it’s native, symmetric, and hardware-guaranteed.
APIs can make memory look unified, but Apple’s design makes it physically unified. Zero-copy on PC often still involves different access paths, bandwidth limits, or page migration, while Apple’s CPU and GPU are literally operating on the same memory with the same characteristics.
APIs can make memory look unified, but Apple’s design makes it physically unified. Zero-copy on PC often still involves different access paths, bandwidth limits, or page migration, while Apple’s CPU and GPU are literally operating on the same memory with the same characteristics.
iGPUs from AMD and Intel are also operating on the same memory with the same characteristics. Apple's implementation is not unique.
Most software on Windows/Linux is written for GPUs with separate VRAM, so it's always been common on PCs to treat iGPUs as if they had a distinct memory pool. But this is the a software convention.
The meaningful thing about Apple's "Unified Memory" is that on every Mac the CPU and GPU share ram, and software can assume it's true. It's not a new hardware concept that is different from what iGPUs have always done.
It’s not equal. Apple advertises a single large memory bandwidth figure but this is the theoretical addition of the CPU, GPU, and NPU’s bandwidth. No single component has full access.
AMD/Intel have a version of two families living on a same adress in a appartement block but having their own flats. What apple has is both families live in the same appartement.
What do you plan on doing that takes advantage of that unified memory better then separate memory? You understand that 614GB/s is still rather low for a modern GPU plus is has to share that bandwidth with the CPU. For example, the memory bandwidth for a laptop 5090 GPU is 896GB/s just for the GPU. With high end ram you are pushing close to 1TB/s system dram bandwidth.
The benefits of being unified only really shine for a few use cases like video editing, gaming, and LLMs, lots of use cases don't use the GPU at all or only incidentally. LPCamm2 gets you most of the speed benefits, although obviously the M5 Max is better there costing substantially more.
I think it needs to be said that a lot of the benefits people attribute are really about having a large pool of reasonably fast memory available to the CPU, GPU, or both, not necessarily the fact that that memory is shared. E.g. if Nvidia made a dGPU with a 512b bus and ~100GB of LPDDR, it would also be really interesting for LLMs.
Skill issue is what keeps people using Windows (only exception is people in creative fields).
If you know your way around computers, windows is just a do*shit of an OS.
intel has almost always been the better choice for laptops.
Even when their chips sucked(Pre core ultra) they were still in some cases better simply bc they would have better wifi chips/connectivity and better idle power efficency and better play with windows power states meaning they wouldn't drain themselves when in sleep mode.
im not talking about full draw im talking about idle/low power draw.
The issue is amd has always had really bad low power draw which on pc is completely fine but there is a reason when people build home servers for example they generally avoid amd because the idle draw will cost you. This is due to AMDs chiplet design.
The same thing is important for laptops because if you are using a laptop all day you are most likely not always running cinebench but instead browsing the web watching YT.
So while it is true intel only started being the more power efficent choice since last generation they have generally had better battery life despite "worse efficency" because of that issue with amd.
However with Strix Halo(not strix point/gorgon point) we can see amd has managed to drastically fix most of those issues although strix halo is only in 2k+ laptops so the mainstream amd laptops still suffer from these issues.
But once these changes are made for medusa point I think amd will be a great option in the laptop space again.
AMD being constrainted by TSMC supply has been go-to excuse for AMD shitting the bed with supply in laptops for so long now.
It's just that AMD doesn't care about laptops, otherwise they still wouldn't be selling stuff with last gen and earlier gpus. Is Vega still being used?
Current trends Intel has generally been a lot better supplier compared to AMD. They push a lot more units in comparison so they have an edge. Not to mention, their tile strategy compared to STX-P that is monolithic
Feel like this pricing should be confirmation that Panther Lake’s pricing scheme from other OEMs is due to taking advantage of new product release rather than Intel charging halo level pricing.
40 dollars extra for an HX370 over the Ultra 7 is wild.
Also, LPDDR5X being cheaper than DDR5 by 40 dollars is super cooked.
They didn't make RDNA4 APUs for some reason, and already had Zen 5. I guess they figured paper launching a refresh was better than being embarrassed in benchmarks.
You don’t want to think about the word "cooked" directly, as it has colliding conjugations for the past and participle which will give you basically opposite meanings ("I cooked" vs "I’m cooked").
The correct way to think about it is being in the role of the chef generally means something positive/skilful/good, whereas being in the role of the food means something negative/fucked up/bad.
the whole swappable port gimmick just needs to go, build a laptop with full IO or stop trying to fool people. these guys are using less IO lanes than other vendors and its 100% a cost cutting measure being sold as pro consumer meme when in reality their margins are genuinely insane and the prices are already too the moon.
Good god is this thing expensive. The prebuilt model Ultra 5 325 with 16GB RAM/512GB of storage is over 1700 USD. I can get a 24/512 Macbook Air M5 with much better performance for about 1200. I get that the Framework has the advantage of upgradability and repairability but if I buy Apple Care I'm still covered for cheaper than the Framework laptop and when I need to upgrade I can just sell the Mac for a fairly decent price and put that towards another laptop. The Framework laptop is a tough sell for me.
It's almost like you buy one and that's your computer the next 5-6 years or you buy something that is made for people that wants more than they're dictated by Apple.
If windows didn't suck so hard on laptops I would change my Macbook to a framework on the spot.
It could be. But you can't really upgrade your Macbook within that 5-6 year period - nor can you stave off a full upgrade after 6 years, by doing a partial upgrade.
That is a benefit of the modular nature of Framework for sure. I do like what they're doing. Looks like the upgrade module is about 450-800 depending on price and that is cheaper than a new laptop.
You can sell your MacBook and buy a new one, which gets you new everything for less cost than a Framework user could buy an upgraded motherboard for. Motherboards for Framework laptops cost as much as a MacBook Neo for the entry level processors. And you're gonna get a hell of a lot better reliability and customer service from Apple than from Framework.
Framework is for people with more Linux brain than financial sense. Their laptops are not very reliable, very overpriced and lock you into very expensive upgrade paths which completely rely on Framework existing as a company in 3 years.
only if they're usb-c monitors, I got 3 2k monitors and to make it work without plugging in 3 separate cables into my macbook I need to use a $120 displaylink dock or buy a $500 dock, because my lenovo tb4 dock uses MST which apple refuses to support
The ram pricing on the framework website is easily double what you can buy lpcamm2 modules for rn, storage is a similar situation (source em yourself). Brings you to around 2.1k for the ultra x7/32gb/1tb when you include the cost of the separately purchased memory/storage, very comparable to a MacBook
I really want the "input cover" keyboard + haptic trackpad as a standalone wireless device. It would be perfect for using a PC on a TV from a couch or bed.
They announced pretty much that, just it doesn't use the 'input cover' from any of the laptops but rather the 12's keyboard and a new trackpad: https://frame.work/ca/en/products/framework-wireless-touchpad-keyboard
Oh that's pretty cool, no doubt it will be better than the awful logitech k400 that's the only current option. I do wish they would've put click buttons on the left side of the device for 2-handed use though.
And they say they're going to be selling the control board separately, so maybe a DIY version of the "wireless input cover" will be possible, since I still think the laptop-style layout and haptic touchpad would be a big improvement.
no doubt it will be better than the awful logitech k400
Got mine in 2014, still use it daily when on my bed. Only thing thats missing is the left control key, but I've already muscle memoried myself into using the right one.
This seems like the first time I have a chance to upgrade lmao
These look great. But, whilst Framework were already on the top end price wise (for a given spec) and justifiably so, the current RAM and Storage prices have killed this for me.
I don't find it weird or surprising, I mean that him putting money where his mouth is actually bearing enough fruit that Framework can find consistent business, and that is astonishing, especially when the company is intent on going a completely different path vs its competition.
Wow, their lpcamm2 32gb module is 2x the newegg/amazon price. But crucial looks like the only supplier, and I guess that is just old stock that is running out. I wonder who their memory supplier is.
It's nearly half the Lenovo laptop I got that has essentially the same LPCAMM module in it (well, made by CMXT, but since their Micron ones are also only 8533 it hardly matters.. I would've imagined they get the 9600 ones..)
BTW it's a pretty good laptop (ThinkBook 16 G8+ iph), sadly I think China only for now. Also has haptic trackpad (a tad worse feeling than apple's though), ethernet, oculink (basically external pci-e 4x4), bunch of usb, pretty nice 16:10 matte IPS, hello camera, fingerprint, ambient light sensor and all that. Got it for around ~1450$ after import duties and all that.
I do generally like what framework is doing, but jolly me the prices are high.
if only they made this machine in a 16" or 17" model. Even if they do make a 16 pro, it will probably still be a giant chunky piece of shit like the current 16 is, but I would be super happy to be proven wrong.
The X7 358H prebuilt model with 32GB/1TB is $2099 (2299 with Windows). Apple does have a price advantage because they make their own processors but if you hate Apple as I do it's really not pad.
You're not confused or missing anything. Some people will buy this because it's modular and they can tinker with building it. It's upgradable, even though it will cost way more and the price/performance just isn't there. I'd pick one up as a dedicated Linux notebook I could mess around with, but I already have enough expensive hobbies and computer stuff around here.
Not going to defend the steep price, but you can upgrade the framework down the line. Even 5 years from now (if original fw 13 is any indication, which still does support the latest Panther Lake mobo) and replace any broken detail yourself.
Not useful for a large number of people but it is the ethos of the entire company.
With this pricing 5 years down the line you'll be able to buy a new Macbook Pro and still save money. For pure monetary motivation upgrade cycle should be very short and device lifetime should be long.
It makes sense for people who don't like ewaste tho. Broken parts can be replaced, good parts -reused.
Noble00_@reddit
LPCAMM2, 22% increase in battery size, brand new efficient bright high contrast VRR matte display that is also touch screen, larger haptic touchpad, better chasis build, side firing Dolby Atmos certified speakers and cheaper starting price PTL!? These are some really nice upgrades
pt-guzzardo@reddit
It fucking figures that Framework finally introduces a haptic touchpad a month after I gave up waiting and bought an M5 Macbook Pro.
tenchigaeshi@reddit
Is it that big of a deal?
Attainted@reddit
Touchpads? Absolutely. That's why my laptops have always been macbooks since 2009.
wakIII@reddit
I just got mine 2 days ago…. My current FW13 ground faults if I touch it the wrong way and the trackpad is awful. Of course they fix this stuff
pmjm@reddit
The Macbooks definitely have some kind of weird grounding thing going on too, there's often a particular tingling sensation when you touch the chassis while charging. Been a common issue across multiple Apple products for at least the last decade. But it doesn't seem to affect the operation of the system, just a weird sensation while touching it.
lowlymarine@reddit
I noticed this on my M4 MBA as well, but I was able to resolve it by flipping the power adapter around (as in, plugging it in the other way up, since it isn't polarized).
rezarNe@reddit
Yeah there are people that have written about it, the whole chassis has a charge when charging with the magsafe connection, it's not dangerous but the tingling sensation is kinda annoying.
Xlxlredditor@reddit
It can hurt if you're using a grounded MacBook (with a grounded charger) and touch an ungrounded one. The shock is nasty
wakIII@reddit
I mean that’s fine, the problem with the framework is it actually shorts somewhere and it reboots with dead WiFi adapter. This breaks any sleep routine if it happens while in my bag, and kills it faster than it already drains since it waits for my disk unlock key
pmjm@reddit
That is not smiles-times.
TheSimon98@reddit
It's the lack of grounding (third pin of the plug). The standard framework charger has a grounded plug. I have had the same "tingling" on multiple Surface and MacBook devices disappear when using the grounded charging adapter, and was present on the Framwork when using a thunderbolt docking station with no ground wiring. It's not dangerous or doesn't affect the device
calmtigers@reddit
For those not in “the know”, why would someone buy this instead of an MBP except for price?
Nyucio@reddit
FinnLiry@reddit
Essentially a macbook but without the sucking
Antrikshy@reddit
Some people may prefer to not use macOS.
cgaWolf@reddit
Thank you for your sacrifice 07
OverlyOptimisticNerd@reddit
Absolutely disgusting. At least glossy can be cleaned with any microfiber cloth. Matte displays with finger grease are not fun to clean.
TEK1_AU@reddit
I am using a matte touch screen and it’s great!
OverlyOptimisticNerd@reddit
Hey, I'm glad it's working for you. Truly. It's just not a traditionally good experience as the grime builds up.
I've heard nano-glass is a little more resilient to this than traditional matte coatings.
FinnLiry@reddit
u can also just replace th screen after a few years if it bothers you
OverlyOptimisticNerd@reddit
U shldnt haev 2 du tht
DreadStallion@reddit
why cant matte displays be cleaned?
OverlyOptimisticNerd@reddit
It’s a non-smooth surfaces. It accumulates grime and grease from touch that is harder to clean.
ash_ninetyone@reddit
The battery upgrade alone is nice.
Everything is also modular so you can upgrade your existing one and pick and choose your upgrades.
ILikeFlyingMachines@reddit
Battery is physically bigger, you cant upgrade that
ash_ninetyone@reddit
You can buy the new chassis separately, which is what I'll be waiting for as well
markarth69@reddit
The only thing I don't like is the certification of Dolby Atmos for laptop speakers. Might as well slap a HighRes Audio sticker to the chassis.
ILikeFlyingMachines@reddit
No that is a GIGANTIC difference. Its just some DSP but it makes it sound great, my old laptop had it
NapsterKnowHow@reddit
Dolby Atmos is no joke on mobile devices. It sounds phenomenal on my Galaxy Tab 8 Plus. Idk how they work their magic but the sound stage is so big and directional sound is no joke
CarVac@reddit
I can only hope Linux gets a fraction of this capability.
ILikeFlyingMachines@reddit
And the mainboard is still compatible to the old one.
lagerea@reddit
Now make the next screen emr stylus support as a 2-in-1 and sweep the market.
-protonsandneutrons-@reddit
Will be great to see battery life once this actually gets in the hands of reviewers.
IsometricRain@reddit
Just josh will definitely do one. Only person doing them at 300 nits too, which makes it more relevant to me (and I assume most real users).
Agloe_Dreams@reddit
Golly, this shit is so expensive.
IsometricRain@reddit
Framework tax + LPcamm tax + 2026 laptop market.
Luckily there's about 10 other comparable panther lake laptops (with nice screens too) so eventually you'll see deals on them.
Unless you're ok with paying 200-400 for the extra modularity and feature-set, then you don't need to got with the framework. The field is stacked this generation.
Informal_Cry687@reddit
Compared with laptops with equivalent specs and quality it's actually pretty cheap. The Dell xps 13 with an Intel ultra x7 and 32gb of ram is $400 more expensive than the framework with those specs.
PCBuilderCat@reddit
I want to support the mission statement but I just can’t justify that amount I really hope they can release something of a budget model down the road
996forever@reddit
The budget model is the ongoing framework 13 or 12.
PCBuilderCat@reddit
A quick configure of a 13 with 8gb of RAM, a 120hz screen, and a 1TB comes out at £1300 the only pre built config available is £1900
The 12 after the same basic configuration of 8gb RAM, and a 512gb comes out at £908
Worth noting that neither of those configs include an operating system, add another £200 if you want Windows pre installed
I wouldn't consider either of those budget options, especially the 12 when considering the specs.
996forever@reddit
No framework is cost effective compared to the rest of the world. They’re budget in their own lineup that’s all.
PCBuilderCat@reddit
Well yes but that was obviously not what I meant when I said a budget model
996forever@reddit
If they already have to go outdated intel 13th gen for the 12” only for it to still be that expensive, I don’t think a MacBook Neo tier laptop was ever in the cards.
Framed-Photo@reddit
Yeah, I want to get a framework but their prices are too high to justify imo.
At least this looks more competitive than the original framework 13, which was pretty much a worse device than everything in its price category.
Scrivver@reddit
I got the first one because I believed in the mission, and dreamed of never having to reinstall an OS on a laptop I never have to replace (except part by part).
Now what they're delivering looks phenomenal and is actually exciting beyond its original niche. And I can upgrade piecemeal as I want to, which is just rad.
Framed-Photo@reddit
The thing is, the upgrades are so expensive you could legitimately get an entirely new, genuinely very good laptop for the price a lot of the time. Mainboard upgrades without ram or storage considered make no sense imo, and while sure getting a new trackpad or screen is genuinely nice, if you had bought a different laptop than the framework you could have had a high refresh rate OLED or something this whole time.
I like the mission of framework too, and I get why the prices are high, but until the prices make sense I just can't justify it.
996forever@reddit
Upgrading to a brand new upper mid tier laptop every three years makes more sense. And you get brand new everything not just the few parts you pay to replace.
ariolander@reddit
Is it expensive or is it just hardware is expensive right now with the datacwnter crunch? I an not sure anything else in its market segment with similar specs is much cheaper ATM.
Agloe_Dreams@reddit
Framework has always been hyper expensive. Their 7840U laptops were always $500 more than any competitor.
This stuff is complicated by the lack of availability of Intel Core Series 3 and the fact that it kinda seems like Intel is subsidizing pricing of it. (The price difference between AMD and Intel makes no sense if you look at mainboard pricing, it implies that the Intel motherboard is like $200 total)
If you look at the AMD models, $2099 for a Ryzen 350 is INSANE.
You can get a Zenbook 14 OLED with the same storage, ram and a much faster 285H for a legitimate $700 less.
horatiobanz@reddit
And that's before you have to spend a bunch of money repairing and upgrading your Framework.
coldblade2000@reddit
Unless you're claiming they're more prone to break that doesn't seem like a bad thing at all. Even if you spend 50% of the price upgrading it in 5 years, that must be compared with buying a new laptop instead.
horatiobanz@reddit
The Framework is a worse deal basically every time. And you're stuck with the speakers, touchpad, keyboard, display, etc that you initially bought. Framework is essentially sunk cost fallacy made into a company.
Mage1strider1@reddit
Except you can literally upgrade all of those lol... notice how the old boards are all compatible with the new chassis and battery? Also... they're website pricing for the 32gb lpcamm is super high, I found a set from bestbuy for 250, which while high is far more competitive
horatiobanz@reddit
Yea so now you've dumped how much into this upgraded Framework laptop? Like 3 grand? For a mediocre laptop. Instead of buying like a $1000 MacBook Air and then selling it 5 years later for $500 and buying another $1000 MacBook Air..... The financials make zero sense for Framework, and they know this which is why they are going all in on the Linux schtick. They are going after the audience where value doesnt matter as much as ethos.
MXC_Vic_Romano@reddit
Pretty much this, they're lifestyle products.
Mage1strider1@reddit
I mean lol, the macbook air is not the competition here, it's the 14" pro. With edu discount, the base m5 pro 14" w/ 32gb (some of us need memory for work lol) and 1tb is $2k. The ultra 7 13 pro is 1735 (I'm adding some cards) + 250 for 32gb of ram + idk how much for a 1tb drive, if you hunt you can still find ok prices. That's uh... effectively the same as that macbook lol within 100 bucks (and runs linux... or windows...)
horatiobanz@reddit
The math is the same for whatever level of laptop you need. The Macbook is cheaper up front, will last longer, and retains its value like 800x better than the Framework. A person buying a Framework laptop today is basically guaranteed to spend more money over time trying to upgrade their laptop vs just buying a good quality alternative and then selling it and buying a new laptop when needed.
Mage1strider1@reddit
Idk what you're bizarre beef is here, who brought up resale? Comparable build quality now so that's mostly a moot point, not the stupid glossy antiglare that apple applies that then fails/erodes from the keyboard for lack of a better term, a touch screen, and uh... why would I end up spending more on the framework over time? I'm not forced to upgrade, most likely I'd do it once every 4-5 years... still cheaper than selling a macbook pro and buying a new one with far less hassle. A new mainboard is less than $800, which while not cheap is certainly less than a new macbook pro.
Your point is valid for the regular 13... that machine is a bit silly price-wise... the new one? Far less so given the much better cpu/chassis/screen/trackpad
horatiobanz@reddit
Lets see what the reviews look like for Frameworks new models before we start slobbing their knob. Every laptop review I've seen for one of their laptops has been damning.
And IDK if you've done the math on your Macbook Pro example, but it would still absolutely be cheaper to sell your 5 year old Macbook Pro and buy a new one, and you get the benefit of getting a brand new everything with the new Macbook. And how is replacing a motherboard more of a hassle than replacing a whole laptop???? That makes zero sense.
snollygoster1@reddit
A lot of people online love to have "upgrades" as the end-all, be-all but really it's sort of meaningless for 99% of people out there besides enthusiasts. At the end of the day a laptop is a tool meant to accomplish other tasks. Most people buy a laptop, keep it for a few years, and then think "oh I need a new laptop" and just buy a new one. At some point the laptop becomes a Ship of Theseus with the only original component being the case and at that point you've saved nothing.
The Macbook Neo is repairable for everything anyone would actually need to fix on their own, and that's all most people need.
horatiobanz@reddit
It would be one thing if these laptops came with absolutely ridiculously fantastic displays, speakers, keyboards, touchpads, build quality etc and the only thing you ever needed to upgrade was the motherboard and those upgrades were reasonable. But thats not how Frameworks laptops have been at all.
Very true. I think most laptops are repairable in that sense now with ebay existing. I just repaired a niche multi year old Chromebook by replacing the motherboard. Was very simple.
snollygoster1@reddit
Yeah, and having anything be fantastic quality is almost impossible because they've locked in to one model from 5 years ago.
AvoidingIowa@reddit
I’m debating on if I want to get the framework or just a used Thinkpad. The thinkpad is more reasonable in every way but I do think supporting frameworks mission is good.
MrShrek69@reddit
Wow they are using CAM modules that’s so damn cool. I might be tempted to pick one up. Was gonna replace my M1 with M5, but the “Mac Pro of Linux” is something I can get behind
Farados55@reddit
Is this undercover framework marketing? lol this still wont come close to mac performance for SoC
Exist50@reddit
We know how PTL performs. It's not a mystery.
Farados55@reddit
Yeah so worse than m5?
996forever@reddit
When did they compare to the m5?
Farados55@reddit
“Mac pro of linux”
u01728@reddit
This is not undercover framework marketing. They used the same term in the announcement video, which is probably why the original commenter put it in quotes.
And as mentioned, the performance of both Panther Lake and M5 SoCs are known.
Farados55@reddit
It's amazing how people are swayed by marketing terms
996forever@reddit
What terms exactly?
Farados55@reddit
“Mac Pro of Linux” ya know what the original guy said
Caffdy@reddit
not really, in all honestly. AMD nor Intel have made something akin the M Chip unified memory, in efficiency and bandwidth. The new M5 Max on the current Macbook Pros reach upto 614GB/s of memory bandwidth, it's a breast through and through
battler624@reddit
You must be misunderstanding something because AMD and Intel both have unified memory.
Apple is pushing the bandwidth on said unified memory yes but they all do have unified memory.
EitherGiraffe@reddit
No, they don't.
They are using a shared pool of memory that gets segmented like they always have for iGPUs, but they don't share memory addresses. You can't do CPU operations on GPU memory and vice versa.
Apple has true unified memory.
Exist50@reddit
Apple's been ambiguous in how they use that term, i.e. whether it refers to a unified address space or simply a shared physical memory pool.
Jarasmut@reddit
Apple clearly stated "all of the technologies in the SoC can access the same data without copying between multiple pools of memory": https://youtu.be/5AwdkGKmZ0I?t=464
To me that statement makes it clear that CPU and GPU aren't merely sharing the same memory with dynamic allocation.
Exist50@reddit
That's part of what they implemented, yes, but the marketing term "unified memory" may or may not refer to that.
Also, even with split memory pools, you can still hand off pointers without a copy, though there's still more to Apple's implementation than just the lack of copy.
Jarasmut@reddit
Okay that's fair and you definitely know much, much more about the topic than I do. It's unfortunate that Apple does not give out more information, in practice it doesn't matter to me how they reduce performance losses and avoid the extra copying but it would still be interesting to learn how they implemented it.
monocasa@reddit
From what I've read of the Asahi GPU drivers, it seems to be at least capable of both. For instance the GPU MMU uses AArch64 formatted page tables. I don't know the specifics of Apple's driver stack though; there could be some weird software restriction.
Exist50@reddit
Yes, afaik, it is. But the term "unified memory" means a bunch of different things to different people, not necessarily the sum total of Apple's implementation.
Farados55@reddit
I think it's generally understood that it's a shared address space.
Exist50@reddit
You say that, but have you seen any of the billion blog posts about "Unified Memory"? Complete crapshoot whether people even know it's DRAM. Half the Apple sub seems to think it's on die.
monocasa@reddit
You in Linux. What you're talking about is a Windows restriction.
battler624@reddit
Dont get hyped for marketing terms man, as I said in another post, apple is simply dynamically shared memory space, the others is static. Its not a huge difference especially since the increase in some cases. 4GB lost out of 128GB is not a make it or break it.
Also, you could get really close to the full 128GB nowadays, if you have 10 minutes read this From bare metal to AI powerhouse — setting up AMD’s Strix Halo | by ... | Medium
BloodyLlama@reddit
I only skimmed that, but it looked rather out of date. On Linux you can get the whole 128 GB, with only 512 MB reserved.
dakjelle@reddit
So, just so that I understand this correctly. Let's say you have 1 mb of data in memory the gpu can manipulate this and the cpu can also manipulate it?
At the same time, I guess no. But the memory area isn't assigned to be either gpu or cpu?
Both have equal access?
Henrarzz@reddit
In unified memory systems both have equal access*
*conditions apply: access is controllable by the programmer, memory read/writes should be synchronized, there may be performance differences in how memory is read/write depending on what access flags are set and so on
Caffdy@reddit
we already have that discussion recently, is not the same thing, Apple has true unified memory
battler624@reddit
The one thing apple has that the others dont is that shared memory allocation is dynamic.
ycnz@reddit
You can allow Linux to dynamically make it available with GTT - the 64GB HX370 I'm tinkering with will cheerfully make 48GB available. It's still not amazing for inference, but it's better than I thought it'd be :)
d00mt0mb@reddit
You misunderstood. Shared is not same as unified
battler624@reddit
With the exception of dynamic allocation, do tell what does apple do differently that intel, amd, or nvidia cant?
d00mt0mb@reddit
Intel/AMD “shared memory” still involves separate access paths and often data movement, while Apple’s unified memory is a single physical pool with equal, simultaneous access across all compute units that’s the actual difference.
battler624@reddit
Dude thats just software.
All shared memory pools can be zero-copy if they use the correct API, the issue is windows. Look up AMD ROCm / HIP & search for Fine-Grained Memory Access and Linux HMM.
Apple is just doing it by default, universally, and managed by OS. All of which are great points.
On Linux its managed by the kernel, drivers, and can be affected by developers.
On Windows it requires some minimal static allocation and the rest is dynamic but completely managed by developers.
d00mt0mb@reddit
You’re not wrong that APIs like ROCm/HIP and Linux HMM enable zero-copy semantics but that doesn’t mean the underlying system is equivalent.
The key difference isn’t whether zero-copy is possible. It’s whether it’s native, symmetric, and hardware-guaranteed.
APIs can make memory look unified, but Apple’s design makes it physically unified. Zero-copy on PC often still involves different access paths, bandwidth limits, or page migration, while Apple’s CPU and GPU are literally operating on the same memory with the same characteristics.
erik@reddit
iGPUs from AMD and Intel are also operating on the same memory with the same characteristics. Apple's implementation is not unique.
Most software on Windows/Linux is written for GPUs with separate VRAM, so it's always been common on PCs to treat iGPUs as if they had a distinct memory pool. But this is the a software convention.
The meaningful thing about Apple's "Unified Memory" is that on every Mac the CPU and GPU share ram, and software can assume it's true. It's not a new hardware concept that is different from what iGPUs have always done.
Standard-Potential-6@reddit
It’s not equal. Apple advertises a single large memory bandwidth figure but this is the theoretical addition of the CPU, GPU, and NPU’s bandwidth. No single component has full access.
NoPriorThreat@reddit
AMD/Intel have a version of two families living on a same adress in a appartement block but having their own flats. What apple has is both families live in the same appartement.
Exist50@reddit
Then that argument is about neither bandwidth nor efficiency, but rather software abstraction.
jenny_905@reddit
You've upset the apple crew with this statement of fact, they prefer the marketing.
MaxPlanck_420@reddit
What do you plan on doing that takes advantage of that unified memory better then separate memory? You understand that 614GB/s is still rather low for a modern GPU plus is has to share that bandwidth with the CPU. For example, the memory bandwidth for a laptop 5090 GPU is 896GB/s just for the GPU. With high end ram you are pushing close to 1TB/s system dram bandwidth.
WJMazepas@reddit
MacBooks arent just about Unified memory with huge bandwidth
A Mac Pro of Linux means a lot more than just they having similar specs
FollowingFeisty5321@reddit
The benefits of being unified only really shine for a few use cases like video editing, gaming, and LLMs, lots of use cases don't use the GPU at all or only incidentally. LPCamm2 gets you most of the speed benefits, although obviously the M5 Max is better there costing substantially more.
Exist50@reddit
I think it needs to be said that a lot of the benefits people attribute are really about having a large pool of reasonably fast memory available to the CPU, GPU, or both, not necessarily the fact that that memory is shared. E.g. if Nvidia made a dGPU with a 512b bus and ~100GB of LPDDR, it would also be really interesting for LLMs.
spiteful_fly@reddit
I wish they just got rid of the in-chasis dongles. I would much prefer a single board that is interchangable between the 12, 13, and 16 models.
996forever@reddit
And how would that be possible when they all use different chipsets?
spiteful_fly@reddit
The same way they do now. A board that is big enough to support different types of chipsets. What kinds of limitations are you thinking about?
AvoidingIowa@reddit
I’m going to make a bold statement regarding the Mac vs Framework argument going on in these comments.
If you want Linux, get the framework.
If you want MacOS, get the Mac.
If you want Windows, get help.
ElephantWithBlueEyes@reddit
Skill issue. All three OS do the job mostly. All three have own issues.
effortless-switch@reddit
Skill issue is what keeps people using Windows (only exception is people in creative fields).
If you know your way around computers, windows is just a do*shit of an OS.
Culbrelai@reddit
Windows hate is so overblown and played out. I’ve had zero issues with Windows 11 that are not caused by overclocking attempts or legacy software.
vlakreeh@reddit
Windows is such a horrible experience for software development compared to other posix operating systems.
pfak@reddit
I just found the ads on Windows absolutely obnoxious.
burtmacklin15@reddit
Heaven forbid someone actually needs to use legacy software...
EducationalGood495@reddit
What do you mean by help? I never heard if Help Laptops
Dangerous-Amphibian2@reddit
Pretty nice but crap pricing.
FinnLiry@reddit
Companies would buy it for employees. At least where I live. Employees are so costly that a 4k laptop is nothing in comparison.
Slasher1738@reddit
I look forward to the AMD version
steve09089@reddit
There already is an AMD version, and it's more expensive.
NapsterKnowHow@reddit
AMD laptops still have better efficiency right?
steve09089@reddit
Not against Panther Lake
Slasher1738@reddit
For now. Intel went after the consumer space with 3N, AMD is prioritizing AI & Enterprise. We'll see how Medusa performs .
996forever@reddit
Then make this comment next year
NapsterKnowHow@reddit
Interesting. Still wary of Intel in the laptop market myself though.
StunningPush8421@reddit
intel has almost always been the better choice for laptops.
Even when their chips sucked(Pre core ultra) they were still in some cases better simply bc they would have better wifi chips/connectivity and better idle power efficency and better play with windows power states meaning they wouldn't drain themselves when in sleep mode.
NapsterKnowHow@reddit
Intel hasn't been the better choice for the last few gens. AMD has been kicking their ass in power efficiency.
StunningPush8421@reddit
im not talking about full draw im talking about idle/low power draw.
The issue is amd has always had really bad low power draw which on pc is completely fine but there is a reason when people build home servers for example they generally avoid amd because the idle draw will cost you. This is due to AMDs chiplet design.
The same thing is important for laptops because if you are using a laptop all day you are most likely not always running cinebench but instead browsing the web watching YT.
So while it is true intel only started being the more power efficent choice since last generation they have generally had better battery life despite "worse efficency" because of that issue with amd.
However with Strix Halo(not strix point/gorgon point) we can see amd has managed to drastically fix most of those issues although strix halo is only in 2k+ laptops so the mainstream amd laptops still suffer from these issues.
But once these changes are made for medusa point I think amd will be a great option in the laptop space again.
InevitableSherbert36@reddit
Which they don't use on mobile (aside from a few exceptions).
StunningPush8421@reddit
the few exceptions being all their high end gaming laptop chips like the 9955hx3d
Slasher1738@reddit
Not on the 13 pro chassis
pc0999@reddit
The MacBook of Linux is a great take IMO.
996forever@reddit
The philosophy can’t be more polar opposite lol
StunningPush8421@reddit
Why on earth is the hx 370 higher in price than the x7 358h who is going to buy it
railagent69@reddit
Intel got unlimited supply of that from their 18A fabs and AMD gotta pick and choose what they make at TSMC
darthkers@reddit
AMD being constrainted by TSMC supply has been go-to excuse for AMD shitting the bed with supply in laptops for so long now.
It's just that AMD doesn't care about laptops, otherwise they still wouldn't be selling stuff with last gen and earlier gpus. Is Vega still being used?
996forever@reddit
It’s a pathetic excuse. Even when intel used TSMC N3B they still did way better in supply than AMD on a worse node.
raulgzz@reddit
They source their B390 iGPU from TSMC.
Fritzkier@reddit
which only takes 1/5 of total X7 die area, still a massive reduction of cost imo.
AnEagleisnotme@reddit
Because AMD is irrelevant in the laptop space, and is honestly just stagnant in the consumer market right now
Noble00_@reddit
Current trends Intel has generally been a lot better supplier compared to AMD. They push a lot more units in comparison so they have an edge. Not to mention, their tile strategy compared to STX-P that is monolithic
NamerNotLiteral@reddit
Current trends? Intel has always been a better supplier for laptop components than AMD.
Exist50@reddit
At least in terms of product cost, STX is absolutely lower. It's on a much cheaper node, and the lack of advanced packaging helps, not hurts.
Noble00_@reddit
I was going to put in (may not be much of a factor compared to my first point) lol
DanRita@reddit
I think from Intel's perspective that's exactly the point.
IORelay@reddit
AMD.
steve09089@reddit
Feel like this pricing should be confirmation that Panther Lake’s pricing scheme from other OEMs is due to taking advantage of new product release rather than Intel charging halo level pricing.
40 dollars extra for an HX370 over the Ultra 7 is wild.
Also, LPDDR5X being cheaper than DDR5 by 40 dollars is super cooked.
iDontSeedMyTorrents@reddit
Not just Ultra 7, but Ultra X7. An important distinction given X7's much larger GPU.
mcslender97@reddit
What the hell is going on with AMD laptop chips supply
comelickmyarmpits@reddit
For some reason amd laptop chips are ridiculously priced
wpm@reddit
The reason is they haven't had competition for a while. Panther Lake looks to be upsetting that norm.
996forever@reddit
That’s not true. Lunar lake was better in many ways for ultrabooks than Strix/Kracken (only thing it didn’t have was multi core CPU perf).
Arrow Lake mobile was competitive with strix point in every way. Superior in IO and only slightly weaker in iGP and multi core cpu perf/watt.
Meteor Lake was competitive with Phoenix/Hawk Point.
F9-0021@reddit
They didn't make RDNA4 APUs for some reason, and already had Zen 5. I guess they figured paper launching a refresh was better than being embarrassed in benchmarks.
Nimbus420i@reddit
Oh they did launch refresh gorgon point. Basically strix point + 100mhz core clock.
Pippihippy@reddit
Intel has finally been humbled enough to start competing on price. Now lets see if that extends to their "tick-tock" motherboard scheme.
zakats@reddit
What does this mean in English?
YeshYyyK@reddit
super bad/good depending on context (idk, it's weird, but it's like being burned vs being cooked fine?)
Whitestrake@reddit
It's becoming kinda versatile, like "fuck".
They absolutely cooked with this one? Hell yeah.
Those guys are totally cooked? Oh, that's bad.
ariolander@reddit
HIV Aladeen.
zakats@reddit
Thanks, translator.
Ainulind@reddit
When it comes to cooking, you're either in the pot or the one holding it.
RhythmMaid@reddit
BEING cooked = bad
CookING = good
YeOldeMemeShoppe@reddit
That’s terrible.
Terrible = good or bad depending on the generation.
dnkndnts@reddit
You don’t want to think about the word "cooked" directly, as it has colliding conjugations for the past and participle which will give you basically opposite meanings ("I cooked" vs "I’m cooked").
The correct way to think about it is being in the role of the chef generally means something positive/skilful/good, whereas being in the role of the food means something negative/fucked up/bad.
airfryerfuntime@reddit
Does your hair happen to resemble a head of brocoli?
ChinChinApostle@reddit
UNC ALERT 🚨🚨🚨
Strazdas1@reddit
What does University of North Carolina has to do with this?
doscomputer@reddit
the whole swappable port gimmick just needs to go, build a laptop with full IO or stop trying to fool people. these guys are using less IO lanes than other vendors and its 100% a cost cutting measure being sold as pro consumer meme when in reality their margins are genuinely insane and the prices are already too the moon.
makar1@reddit
4x Thunderbolt 4 seems like a lot of lanes?
jacktherippah123@reddit
Good god is this thing expensive. The prebuilt model Ultra 5 325 with 16GB RAM/512GB of storage is over 1700 USD. I can get a 24/512 Macbook Air M5 with much better performance for about 1200. I get that the Framework has the advantage of upgradability and repairability but if I buy Apple Care I'm still covered for cheaper than the Framework laptop and when I need to upgrade I can just sell the Mac for a fairly decent price and put that towards another laptop. The Framework laptop is a tough sell for me.
zerGoot@reddit
if not for RAM pricing, it would be very competitive, but Apple has much better prices on RAM, which a company of Framework's size just cannot do :(
xDontStarve@reddit
Ok but 2000€ for 16/512 is crazy, makes Mac seem more competitive, i do appreciate the upgradability tho
zerGoot@reddit
sadly RAM pricing completely fucks this machine, a problem Apple's current Macs just do not face (yet)
dakjelle@reddit
It's almost like you buy one and that's your computer the next 5-6 years or you buy something that is made for people that wants more than they're dictated by Apple.
If windows didn't suck so hard on laptops I would change my Macbook to a framework on the spot.
wankthisway@reddit
I don't see how an equivalently priced Macbook couldn't be your machine for 5-6 years either?
Sarin10@reddit
It could be. But you can't really upgrade your Macbook within that 5-6 year period - nor can you stave off a full upgrade after 6 years, by doing a partial upgrade.
wankthisway@reddit
That is a benefit of the modular nature of Framework for sure. I do like what they're doing. Looks like the upgrade module is about 450-800 depending on price and that is cheaper than a new laptop.
horatiobanz@reddit
You can sell your MacBook and buy a new one, which gets you new everything for less cost than a Framework user could buy an upgraded motherboard for. Motherboards for Framework laptops cost as much as a MacBook Neo for the entry level processors. And you're gonna get a hell of a lot better reliability and customer service from Apple than from Framework.
BetaXahi@reddit
M1 MacBook airs are still going strong after 5+ years
horatiobanz@reddit
Framework is for people with more Linux brain than financial sense. Their laptops are not very reliable, very overpriced and lock you into very expensive upgrade paths which completely rely on Framework existing as a company in 3 years.
JPLangley@reddit
Apple wins. Again.
superkickstart@reddit
Apple has fully customizable and upgradeable laptop and i can install any os i want?
degeneratepr@reddit
Really wish Framework shipped to Japan. I've been waiting for years to get one of their systems.
renrutal@reddit
Compared:
Framework 13 Pro pre-built, 358H, 32 GB(upgradable), 1TB(upgradable), Ubuntu, $52 in cards, 100W USB-C PS = 2,111.00 USD
MacBook Air 13, M5 10-core(10 GPU), 32 GB(non-upgradable), 1TB(non-upgradable), macOS, 2 USB ports, 70W USB-C PS = 1,719.00 USD
MacBook Pro 14(standard display), M5 10-core(10-GPU), 32 GB(non-upgradable), 1TB(non-upgradable), macOS, 3 USB+1 HDMI ports, 70W USB-C PS = 2,099.00 USD
Sources: frame.work, apple.com
Plank_With_A_Nail_In@reddit
Can you run 2 4K monitors off of those Macs @ 144hz refresh rate?
shoneysbreakfast@reddit
You can do three external 4K 144hz displays on M5 Pro.
Grizknot@reddit
only if they're usb-c monitors, I got 3 2k monitors and to make it work without plugging in 3 separate cables into my macbook I need to use a $120 displaylink dock or buy a $500 dock, because my lenovo tb4 dock uses MST which apple refuses to support
renrutal@reddit
Yes, Apple does claim it can, at least for the Pro models.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/101571
Iintl@reddit
The 358H 32/1TB pre-prebuilt config is $2939. Not $2111.
That's an insane amount of money
bobbymack93@reddit
Are you in the US? I am seeing $2100 for an Ubuntu pre-build. https://imgur.com/a/dYVkVOL
Iintl@reddit
Wait you're right -- it defaulted me to CAD for some reason. No wonder it seemed so ludicrous
asfletch@reddit
Yeah it does that. About $2700 for the base DIY config in Australia, plus our GST so nearly A$3k. Tough sell when a Macbook Pro 14 is about A$1700....
bobbymack93@reddit
Also, I found LPCAMM2 on Adorma for about $200 less than what framework has in the configurator, so you could get a DIY kit for a little closer to a pre-built. https://www.adorama.com/crucial-32gb-ddr5-8533mhz-lpcamm2-memory-module/p/ct32g85c2lp5
Mage1strider1@reddit
The ram pricing on the framework website is easily double what you can buy lpcamm2 modules for rn, storage is a similar situation (source em yourself). Brings you to around 2.1k for the ultra x7/32gb/1tb when you include the cost of the separately purchased memory/storage, very comparable to a MacBook
noiserr@reddit
x86 compatibility and Linux support is premium.
mcslender97@reddit
Modularity costs extra apparently. At least repairs are easier and cost less
ctzn4@reddit
I'm seeing $2249 for a bare ones 358H build, 32/1TB, with a $59 100W adapter, no cards.
renrutal@reddit
The DIY option is quite a bit more expensive than pre-built one.
ctzn4@reddit
I see, so yours is a pre built config? Thanks for the pointer.
iDontSeedMyTorrents@reddit
That config is cheaper pre-built (without Windows) than barebones.
raulgzz@reddit
For $2199 you get a 15 core MBP with 24GB and 1TB. Even cheaper if you say you are a student or teacher.
LastChancellor@reddit
Now if only Framework would sell to my country 😓
Fwank49@reddit
I really want the "input cover" keyboard + haptic trackpad as a standalone wireless device. It would be perfect for using a PC on a TV from a couch or bed.
Srbija2EB@reddit
They announced pretty much that, just it doesn't use the 'input cover' from any of the laptops but rather the 12's keyboard and a new trackpad: https://frame.work/ca/en/products/framework-wireless-touchpad-keyboard
Grizknot@reddit
what does it cost?
Fwank49@reddit
Oh that's pretty cool, no doubt it will be better than the awful logitech k400 that's the only current option. I do wish they would've put click buttons on the left side of the device for 2-handed use though.
And they say they're going to be selling the control board separately, so maybe a DIY version of the "wireless input cover" will be possible, since I still think the laptop-style layout and haptic touchpad would be a big improvement.
Slicelker@reddit
Got mine in 2014, still use it daily when on my bed. Only thing thats missing is the left control key, but I've already muscle memoried myself into using the right one.
This seems like the first time I have a chance to upgrade lmao
CarVac@reddit
The firmware could be customized to turn tilde into a mouse button.
iDontSeedMyTorrents@reddit
https://frame.work/ca/en/blog/previewing-the-framework-wireless-touchpad-keyboard
Also says the touchpad is "clickable" further down. Sounds like they are reusing their old clickpad.
80avtechfan@reddit
These look great. But, whilst Framework were already on the top end price wise (for a given spec) and justifiably so, the current RAM and Storage prices have killed this for me.
biotech997@reddit
I’m in the market for a new laptop but really can’t justify the cost of a Framework when a MBA have similar if not better performance.
Mission_Price7292@reddit
This is the first laptop I’d actually consider buying from Framework… Need silver colour option and rgb keyboard
This-is_CMGRI@reddit
and of course Linus apparently got to shoot the video 4 days before this event lmao amazing
GarbageFeline@reddit
Well, he's an investor so why is that so weird or surprising?
FranciumGoesBoom@reddit
I wonder what they think about AMD giving HUB/Level1/Derbaur/Phoronix 9950x3d2s beforehand.
Girtablulu@reddit
We will see if they make a video about being blacklisted
This-is_CMGRI@reddit
I don't find it weird or surprising, I mean that him putting money where his mouth is actually bearing enough fruit that Framework can find consistent business, and that is astonishing, especially when the company is intent on going a completely different path vs its competition.
Rengar_Is_Good_kitty@reddit
Cool, let me know when they decide to have reasonable prices.
Ainulind@reddit
Today
nittanyofthings@reddit
Wow, their lpcamm2 32gb module is 2x the newegg/amazon price. But crucial looks like the only supplier, and I guess that is just old stock that is running out. I wonder who their memory supplier is.
Acrobatic_Fee_6974@reddit
Probably still Micron. They still supply OEMs, just not direct to consumer.
asfletch@reddit
Yeah Patel (CEO) mentions Micron in the product into video they posted on YT.
Hotcooler@reddit
It's nearly half the Lenovo laptop I got that has essentially the same LPCAMM module in it (well, made by CMXT, but since their Micron ones are also only 8533 it hardly matters.. I would've imagined they get the 9600 ones..)
BTW it's a pretty good laptop (ThinkBook 16 G8+ iph), sadly I think China only for now. Also has haptic trackpad (a tad worse feeling than apple's though), ethernet, oculink (basically external pci-e 4x4), bunch of usb, pretty nice 16:10 matte IPS, hello camera, fingerprint, ambient light sensor and all that. Got it for around ~1450$ after import duties and all that.
I do generally like what framework is doing, but jolly me the prices are high.
DeliciousIncident@reddit
I dream of an 17" or 18" Framework laptop good I/O: 6 USB ports, Ethernet, HDMI, Headphone and SD Card.
Rjman86@reddit
if only they made this machine in a 16" or 17" model. Even if they do make a 16 pro, it will probably still be a giant chunky piece of shit like the current 16 is, but I would be super happy to be proven wrong.
d00mt0mb@reddit
I do not want to have to throw out my DDR5 for LPCAMM at today’s RAM prices
Thorluis2@reddit
Ok you can use ai 300 séries amd or older Intel daughterboard! That's what great about framework, they give you options.
thunk_stuff@reddit
No need to throw out, it will sell nicely on ebay -- I know because I just paid nicely on ebay for DDR5.
RogueHeroAkatsuki@reddit
Framework 13 Pro x358h + 32GB + 1 TB + W11 Home = 3287$
MBA 13 - M5 + 32GB + 1TB = 1699$
Performance wise M5 and x358 are close in multicore
What is the point of buying this?
For less than this you can get M5 Pro with 48gb and 2TB SSD. I'm really confused.
CarVac@reddit
The X7 358H prebuilt model with 32GB/1TB is $2099 (2299 with Windows). Apple does have a price advantage because they make their own processors but if you hate Apple as I do it's really not pad.
RogueHeroAkatsuki@reddit
2099$ is prebuilt without RAM and SSD.
CarVac@reddit
No, prebuilts have both RAM and SSD. The Ultra 5 is 16/512, the Ultra X7 358H is 32/1TB.
RogueHeroAkatsuki@reddit
Right, I was checking DIY models but for prebuilt x358h+32gb definitely 2939, still crazy expensive
CarVac@reddit
Check your currencies. MBA is $1699 for me in USD and FW 13 Pro is $2099 for me in USD.
SunfireGaren@reddit
I'm seeing ~$3k for the pre built X7 358H with 32/1TB
CarVac@reddit
$3k CAD? AUD?
I just configured it and it's $2111 USD in my cart, including an HDMI expansion card.
commandoB@reddit
I get the $2939 (+$280 for W11) number that was mentioned when viewing in CAD.
IORelay@reddit
M5 no doubt is very strong but MacBook air doesn't have fans so can't sustain peak performance. Better to compare it against the pro.
trololololo2137@reddit
macbook pro destroys framework in the screen department (tbh even air does if you want a glossy screen)
thelimeisgreen@reddit
You're not confused or missing anything. Some people will buy this because it's modular and they can tinker with building it. It's upgradable, even though it will cost way more and the price/performance just isn't there. I'd pick one up as a dedicated Linux notebook I could mess around with, but I already have enough expensive hobbies and computer stuff around here.
Gideonic@reddit
Not going to defend the steep price, but you can upgrade the framework down the line. Even 5 years from now (if original fw 13 is any indication, which still does support the latest Panther Lake mobo) and replace any broken detail yourself.
Not useful for a large number of people but it is the ethos of the entire company.
MonoShadow@reddit
With this pricing 5 years down the line you'll be able to buy a new Macbook Pro and still save money. For pure monetary motivation upgrade cycle should be very short and device lifetime should be long.
It makes sense for people who don't like ewaste tho. Broken parts can be replaced, good parts -reused.
Material2975@reddit
this looks like exactly what I wanted before I caved and bought an M1 Pro MacBook Pro a couple years back
StarbeamII@reddit
6063 aluminum is an odd choice given it’s significantly weaker than bog-standard 6061, though will anodize better.