Moved to the EU thinking I was leaving the corporate game of soft skills behind...
Posted by Weekly_Sort147@reddit | expats | View on Reddit | 56 comments
I always heard that Germanic people were very rational and impersonal.
One of the reasons I left my home country and moved to a Germanic society was this.
As someone who is drained by this corporate game of small talk, social events etc I thought "Finally, I'm going to the place I belong"
Boy, I was wrong. Things are worse here than back home.
While people are not friendly outside the work, there is an imnese pressure to socialize within the office.
Small talks not just for a few seconds, but minutes, lots and lots of social events (birthdays, day of this and that etc), visibility here is a must and if you go straight to the business it is considered rude.
This is a society based on trust, but not trust on WHAT you do but rather on WHO you are.
And all decisions tend to be more collectivist which makes every thing worse = to decide like us, you need to be like us.
NoIGnoTwitsNOtktk@reddit
Need to find a one-person job, like Minding a data center, or driving a truck. There are lots of them around and you hardly have to talk to anybody.
The-American-Abroad@reddit
Should have gone a little farther east. The Slavs don’t really care much for this sort of thing
SeanBourne@reddit
I mean the Slavs take someone smiling to be evidence that that person is stupid. But I guess if you lived there, I can see how it makes sense.
The-American-Abroad@reddit
That’s an exaggeration that isn’t really true in reality. Poles Russians Ukrainians Serbs etc. all smile plenty. They just don’t walk around smiling ear to ear like some Americans do. It’s more that they don’t really have the concept of small talk in the sense that Americans do.
Source: American living in Poland and the Balkans for the last decade.
SeanBourne@reddit
I wasn’t counting a magnum of vodka or them witnessing their neighbor’s misfortunes…
hyperxenophiliac@reddit
Yeah dude, the smiling thing is a massive exaggeration. I came within an inch of marrying a Russian and have spent a lot of time in Russia and the CIS generally.
I would say though that there's still plenty of corporate small talk in modern Russia unless you're in some old school sovok enterprise, which will have its own, far more arbitrary, politics to navigate.
lovepeacefakepiano@reddit
Well, that’s what you get if you believe in the clichés other people tell you about a culture instead of at least taking a vacation somewhere before deciding to move your entire life, or trying to meet some people from said culture first.
Oh, and remember, if you are actually in Germany: bring a cake to work for your own birthday. And you best bake it yourself, too. Store bought will get you side eyed.
Brilliant_Quote_3313@reddit
Oh wow, the cake part surprised me!
I’ve been to Germany, but I’ve never lived there. From my experience, when people go to a house party, (younger) guests often just bring beer and chips. In my culture, though, you’d usually bring something a bit more thoughtful, like a bottle of wine, flowers, and/or a homemade dish such as a salad or something sweet.
I live in Spain now, and at a New Year’s party, a friend showed up with their +1, a German guy. He brought a huge pack of chips 🙂
So for an office birthday party in Germany, are you really expected to bring a homemade cake??
lovepeacefakepiano@reddit
For your own birthday you are expected to bring something for everyone else, yes. I was joking a bit with the homemade…but not entirely. If you work in a big company it’s fine to only bring for your direct team.
I worked for a company for a while where I not only brought homemade muffins for my birthday, a colleague and I also left in the same week and we coordinated bringing food for our own goodbye.
Brilliant_Quote_3313@reddit
I actually love it! In my culture we always bring something to work, and we love feed people, preferable with homemade dishes, yep :) Even though I don't like cooking in general, when I invite guests, I cook at least one dish myself.
Big-Basis3246@reddit
Take it easy, we all come to new places with biases that are often tied to our own language and culture. I suppose you could even argue that positive stereotyping of other cultures prompts people to go and explore and actually experience things
Mysterious-Pie-5@reddit
I embrace the side eyes. Simple as.
Czar1987@reddit
Man this feels like a crap AI post. Sorry if not, but so many subs hsve been overtaken by ai 'insights'
allergicturtle@reddit
They are actually quite indirect at work. Their reference letter system even uses secretly coded language lol. Anyway yes many newcomers are surprised by the actual culture at work and socially.
Putin_inyoFace@reddit
Can you explain this???
Quagga_Resurrection@reddit
If I remember correctly, Germany has laws that make it difficult or illegal to speak badly of a former employee, so people get creative with how they phrase things.
"Excels with an involved manager" = can't be trusted to work independently and needs to be babysat
"Creative and collaborative" = chatty and gets side tracked easily
"They have a high quality bar and encourage others to reach it" = control freak who is critical of coworkers
Stuff like that. It's basically a backhanded way to say things you aren't allowed to say directly that someone can still pick up on if they read between the lines.
Brilliant_Quote_3313@reddit
"Creative and collaborative" = chatty and gets side tracked easily
LOL
I'd be happy if I get the feedback that I'm "creative and collaborative", bc these are good things, no?
I hate working at cultures with too hight level of inderect feedback.
Wunid@reddit
It’s not as indirect as you might think. If you’re familiar with the system, you’ll see it as a rating scale. In fact, a generator is used for this. The work is broken down into different aspects, and for each one you select a rating scale. You’re given f.e. three options for each level, so that not all ratings look the same. For each aspect of the work, you select a scoring scale, and this text is a descriptive form of that scoring scale.
Brilliant_Quote_3313@reddit
Yeah, I know it's a scale. Sometimes it's so difficult :( I'm an immigrant, used to live in four different countries, so I know a bit about differences in cultures and everything.
The Culture Map by Erin Meyer is one of my favorite book! Going to re-read it for the third time now :)
allergicturtle@reddit
Explain which part? Or do you mean with examples? It can also depend on the company but I was surprised to be given feedback at work here that I was "too direct" and needed to "soften" my language when I was asked how a presentation went and I shared both positive and negative. They don't actually like direct criticism at work, you have to deploy corporate jargon in quite a few situations.
Also have seen the phenomenon where if they get pissed at someone, for example a cashier is pissed someone is taking too long to pay - they'll look at the next person in line and roll their eyes as if we should feel just as annoyed. Then they will start speaking negatively "aloud" without actually addressing the person. It's more passive aggressive than anything.
Brilliant_Quote_3313@reddit
Thanks for the example, sounds awful honestly :(
Weekly_Sort147@reddit (OP)
This
oils-and-opioids@reddit
There are rules specifically around not being able to write people a negative reference letter for a new job. So they will write a pleasant and positive sounding job letter that will signal to other HR people that you were not a good employee without that being on the surface visible.
cr1zzl@reddit
Or maybe it’s just you.
Small talk isn’t inherently bad. What would you prefer, everyone ignoring each other? Or deep meaning convos all the time?
And social events!? How dare they!!
Wunid@reddit
Are you surprised by German collectivism? Where on earth did you come from? It’s a trait that sets German society apart from other European nations.
Europe is made up of diverse societies; everyone has different tastes, but there’s something for everyone.
You might be better off in the UK? It is a more pragmatic society than Germany.
You can’t escape soft skills. You can simply try to find a place where they suit you best.
Brilliant_Quote_3313@reddit
Nah, with poor soft skill they'll die in the UK
Big-Basis3246@reddit
Are you Southern European? What makes you think that people in Germanic countries are rational?
Daleftenant@reddit
I once tried to reason with a greek contractor who wanted 7 weeks to finish pouring the foundation for a conservatory.
Germans are paragons of reason and logic by comparison, hell even a frenchman is amiable by those standards.
Big-Basis3246@reddit
Germans just seem rational because emotional repression is huge in German culture
cguess@reddit
"Germans are punctual, people mistake that for competence." - The Spy Who Came In From the Cold (1965)
(personal note: with the exception of Deutchebahn of course, they're not on time and are incompetent)
Big-Basis3246@reddit
It's just a lot of pretending. Pretending to be hard working, efficient, competent... Putting on airs, really, consciously or unconsciously.
I've lived with Germans for years and I didn't find them particularly competent compared to Greeks, Italians or Southern French
hyperxenophiliac@reddit
Tbh I think it's silly to move somewhere based on vague cultural impressions, especially if you yourself don't know that culture well first hand (your post implies you didn't before moving).
People are people wherever you go. Soft skills will always matter to some degree. And the degree to which they do matter is more dependent on what role you're in and what culture the company has than what country you're in.
winery_bound_expat@reddit
this is honestly one of the reasons i'm looking at Italy instead of northern Europe. the relationship-heavy work culture there is probably even more intense than what you're describing, but something about it feels less performative? like it's built around actual meals together and knowing each other's families rather than mandatory birthday cake rituals.
could be totally romanticizing it though. my italian tutor keeps telling me i have no idea what i'm getting into lol
Anonymous30005000@reddit
Don’t go if you are overweight. They hate and are openly mean to fat people.
Perfect_Passenger_14@reddit
Will also probably come with a load of drama
ruinrunner@reddit
Are you one of those insufferable people who says “I don’t like small talk, let’s talk about deep things”? Because small talk is necessary in society. It’s not meaningless talk, it’s just more lighthearted. Sometimes people don’t want to get deep but they still want to know each other. You want to be individualistic but you went to one the most collectivist societies in the world after maybe east Asia
OutsideWishbone7@reddit
“I moved to Germany but did no research into the culture before moving”
SeanBourne@reddit
Where was your home country for context?
Academic_Leg6596@reddit
There's no place in the world where soft skills don't matter. People are complex, dealing with them well is a skill no matter where you go.
Big-Basis3246@reddit
Absolutely, but I can see why OP is getting frustrated because it's all so time consuming and so boring at times
-virage-@reddit
I hate to break it to you but these "soft skills" you seem to dislike are what society is built on. It's how we connect with people, read them, build a basis of trust and understanding. It's also what greases the wheels of cooperation.
Every individual, within the work world and outside of it have their own priorities and agendas. They don't always align with another's, even if it's in the same organization. Picture an IT security team that's core driver is securing and safe guarding the IT environment vs the software dev team that's trying to meet tight deadlines and dealing with an ever changing playing field. Sometimes their priorities will be at odds. If you've taken the time to build cross departmental relationships, it becomes a whole lot easier to find a middle ground because you've built trust with these people.
Building relationships is a fundamental piece of the human experience. You don't need to make small talk, just find things you can connect with people on.
Perfect_Passenger_14@reddit
Egos exist everywhere. More money means more crabs trying to scramble out of the bucket.
Seen some truly shitty behaviours
Brasilian_sandwich@reddit
You haven't seen the worst of it. Imagine that some of these people at work are mentally sick, have NPD for instance, and you land on their bad side...
iku_iku_iku_iku@reddit
I recommend getting a job mowing fields at an airport. Just back and forth all day and no real small talk except clocking in and out. If you can cut grass relatively straight and follow some basic safety protocols you have a peaceful life
oils-and-opioids@reddit
I no way intend this as victim blaming, but making career moves based on cultural stereotypes is not a good move.
unseemly_turbidity@reddit
Well yeah, how would having a collectivist, trust-based society work without talking to each other?
Subterraniate2@reddit
Bastards, with their friendliness and their commitment to community cohesion.
CenturionLegio@reddit
Germany is a very socially hard country... it is the worst in europe maybe besides France
Vokasint@reddit
The moment when I uproot my entire life based on (racist? Idk what to call it) clichés and am surprised when they don't match reality
painter_business@reddit
hahahahahaha.
greenmachine4130@reddit
People are the same everywhere. Horrible
Myboomyboo@reddit
Hahahha 💯
TheShawndown@reddit
Oh, and the "mandatory" fun is also a thing...
RoundAd4247@reddit
Thanks chatGPT.
frenchnotfrench@reddit
No matter where you go, you will never leave “the corporate game of soft skills” behind. You’ll just need a different set of soft skills to adopt to a different working culture.
SafeEmu3759@reddit
A while back I had an offer from major German engineering service provider, within actual offer (I can't recall if it was in e-mail or actual offer) was a mandatory networking event upon joining and would have to attend those quite often. Found it kind of interesting for Germany and what I expected to be more of a colder culture in that sense, especially as US employers I worked for didn't require that.