Plasterer/Painter hasn't done all the work he quoted me for, should I hold back money?
Posted by Dapper_Quail3670@reddit | AskUK | View on Reddit | 55 comments
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Puss-in-jorts@reddit
Stop getting tied up with the exact hours he has worked. It doesn’t matter. You are not paying him per hour but were paying him for the completed jobs.
All that does matter is that he missed the deadline and it wasn’t because the work was more complicated and he had to spend longer than expected at it so overran- it was because he wasn’t onsite.
You need to give him a new deadline or just tell him to leave site ASAP. Do it over phone or text to make it easier and then arrange for him to collect any of his stuff left on site. I think I’d be leaving him outside and taking his tools out to him if I were in your position!
Don’t pay him anything until you get someone else to look at the work completed so far to confirm if there are any remediation costs! Take lots of photos of everything.
Dapper_Quail3670@reddit (OP)
I get what you're saying however at the end of the day he's not onsite due to the lack of hours, had he put the hours in from day one my situation may vary just be the standard of his work and not the lack of it.
BillyJoeDubuluw@reddit
I do just need to point out that you don’t dictate his fee or necessarily “choose his hours” per se…
I think he’s either got badly shitty business sense and/or he’s got his fingers in too many pies at once, because £1500 isn’t worth dragging out across seven working days, he might as well go and work in a warehouse…
You’re not his employer, you’re a client… BUT with that out of the way he is also beginning to take the piss…
You need to sit and do the maths, summarise what he’s completed and what he’s not completed and be completely direct with him about your dissatisfaction so far… He does need to be given the chance to pull his finger out of his arse at this stage, but if he becomes intimidating and/or continues to drag his feet that’s when you need to look at escalating the situation and potentially resolving the matter in court.
The saving grace is that you’ve not paid him up front… So many people cock it up in that department… A reputable tradie has always got the float to be be able to do the job and THEN get paid…
Dapper_Quail3670@reddit (OP)
I'm not dictating his fee but 2 to 3 hrs a day is not acceptable, plus it's stressful having to constantly point out what's been missed
BillyJoeDubuluw@reddit
Has he taken your concerns on board about the work being poor?
Dapper_Quail3670@reddit (OP)
I texted him this morning asked when he plans to finish , he replied and said tomorrow. He said today he will paint walls and tomorrow do the woodwork. I paid tomorrow it is then as I've got a joiner squeezing me in on Friday to do the flooring. I'm not an expert by no means, but I thought sanding and filling would've been done before any painting, I coukd be wrong. I've taken photos of things that have to be fixed ie uneven plastering, media wall needs sanding and some parts filled. So tomorrow it is, I'll roll with it till then, come his finishing time tomorrow and if he thinks he's going to drag it in another day then my brother will be at hand to help him pack his stuff
BillyJoeDubuluw@reddit
That’s good to hear you have some support to deal with the situation.
You could have done with a bit more formal communication than that but nevertheless keep the texts… You now essentially have a paper trail where he has given a time frame of when the work will be finished…
If he now goes on to deviate from that you’re well within your rights to pack his stuff, leave it outside for collection… Text him and tell him he has had the opportunity to complete the work you hired him for, he has deviated from his own agreement with you on when to finish and rectify the unsatisfactory work… His materials are outside the property awaiting collection and you will now only correspond via text message and/or email…
If he attempts to knock on at the property or becomes aggressive you just call the police and report the situation…
Let him take you to court if he likes… He hasn’t completed the work, you’ve documented the standard of work… You have communicated with him by text and therefore have a paper trail that will clearly display you attempted to agree a time for him to complete the work, he gave you a time frame and then he went on to deviate from it…
The ball is in his court from there and he will have a tall order on his hands expecting the £1500… I mean, you’re going to have to pay somebody to start over and repair his shitty work before you even get the job finished…
He could counter-argue, but as long as things are exactly as you have stated and you have that paper trail he will most likely be pissing in the wind…
Dapper_Quail3670@reddit (OP)
Thanks for the sound advice!
Dapper_Quail3670@reddit (OP)
I don't like confrontation and believe if I challenge him in a way that comes across as "finish the job to a high standard by xy day or else" he might just get aggressive, of course I want to stand firm and give him the opportunity to redeem himself, but how many chances do I give him before I can legally tell him his services are no longer required, as I need to be seen as allowing him the chance to correct things.
BillyJoeDubuluw@reddit
I know it can be really uncomfortable, have you got a friend or family member that would be happy to be present with you while you get your point across?
Ultimately, he does need to be told in no uncertain terms that his work isn’t satisfactory and he does need to be given the chance to rectify the situation… This is a very standard part of negotiating works before you then go away and pursue further action if the works ultimately fall through and/or the working relationship becomes unnavigable…
Dapper_Quail3670@reddit (OP)
Thank you , I may take you up on that offer
jabbo13@reddit
No warehouse is paying 1500 for 7 days work but if you can prove me wrong I have an application ready to go
BillyJoeDubuluw@reddit
Take the comment for what it is instead of trying to be smart.
As a company owner in around trades I was simply making the point that the tradesman is arguably dragging out a pretty standard job that isn’t worth seven days of his time.
Don’t get too over excited.
jabbo13@reddit
I get what your trying to say but 1500 for 7 days doesn't seem too bad for a painter and decorator.
Of course it's in his interest to get the job done if he's on a price.
But your comparison was shit.
BillyJoeDubuluw@reddit
Mate, what you pushing for an argument for?
Okay, so that figure can’t be earned in a warehouse, but said painter is still dragging it out…
jabbo13@reddit
I agree with you and I'm not dragging out an argument.
tmr89@reddit
Technically they are his employer for that job
BillyJoeDubuluw@reddit
Nope. They’re a client… but I’m not going to split hairs with you about it… Happy to offer OP further advice if she seeks it, though.
tmr89@reddit
If you can fire someone, you’re their employer
BillyJoeDubuluw@reddit
Inaccurate outlook.
Have a good evening.
tmr89@reddit
Shame you can’t see it. Have a good evening, too!
Ok_Address5844@reddit
Tradie here, the 6 hours a day is up to him as long as he can get the work done in the relevant timeframe, he has not.
Sounds like he is taking you for a ride. I would ask him to either finish asap, as in tomorrow, or he can be paid part of the work.
£1500 for week and no material overhead is a bit steep, I dont think you can say I am paying you for 27 hours of work do this is X amount, you're not his boss.
Dapper_Quail3670@reddit (OP)
He's only worked 2 hrs one day , 3.5hrs another, the longest he's worked is about 5.5hrs. 2hrs then clears off when he could have the livingroom painted if he stayed longer
theevildjinn@reddit
I feel your pain, I'm now in week 8 of a "two week job" 😔 He's either the unluckiest man in England, or he's having me on with some of the excuses he comes up with.
What really aggrieves me is that he had 6 weeks to get it done while my wife and daughter were away visiting her parents in South America. So they basically returned to a building site.
Dapper_Quail3670@reddit (OP)
Sorry to hear, I won't be doing week 3 that's for sure
Superspark76@reddit
£300 a day is about right for any self employed tradesman
Dapper_Quail3670@reddit (OP)
£300 is reasonable if they work say around 6 hrs a day , 2 hrs or 3 hrs a day is unacceptable, that would be £100 - £150 per hour!
Affectionate_Comb_78@reddit
5 days a week that's £78k a year. I'm sure some tradesmen warrant that but it's certainly not to the standard.
Ok-Bag3000@reddit
Surely you’re not THAT ignorant that you think if a self employed tradesperson is on £300 a day they’re getting £300 a day take home in their pocket??
Joshhhhhhhhhh@reddit
78k before any time off before holidays, sickness, work cancelled by customers and just days you have no work on which will bring that down significantly.
You then have to factor in operating costs, insurance, tools, transport, consumables etc.
£300 a day is not an unreasonable amount for somebody self employed doing an actual full day of work.
Chunkweena@reddit
Aye, for a full shift. This plasterer is clearly taking the piss
Theres3ofMe@reddit
Quantity Surveyor here, worked for various large Tier 1 Main Contractors, on new builds.
Reading all the responses, people are making it more complicated than it needs to be.
For those who are saying time isnt important - it is. With any subcontractor, you agree a detailed scope of works, a cost schedule/bill of quantities/activity schedule, a programme of works (laying out nr of hrs per day x nr of days, start and end date), any mark ups (so basically marking up on a drawing/sketch what you are expecting ftom the subcontractor - just helps clarify the scope visually), and you'll agree payment terms - i.e how work will be assessed and paid based on work completed.
If I had a Subcontractor on my project and he was half assed about it, not turning up when he should be, and not finishing when is is contractually obligated to, then he wouldn't be getting paid the full amount thats for sure. If he did not meet the completion date, hed be subject to delay damages (because he has delayed my other subcontractors coming on site, and id charge the pre-agreed rates). But seeing as your not a QS, nor probably have a comprehensive subcontract agreement (as this is a domestic agreement) then only thing I can suggest is holding back % of payment until he has fulfilled all his obligations/scope of works. Thats not being unreasonable. Decorator rate per hr ranges from £15 to £40 (more if London based), depending how experienced and good he is. So use £30 p/hr as a ball park, multiply by nr of hours completed so far.
Dapper_Quail3670@reddit (OP)
The thing is I'm not prepared to give him another week in the job. His deadline was last Fri which he failed, he then said he'd have it all done for Wed (today) which again he will fail, I'm prepared to give him until Thurs (tomorrow), then I'll ask him nicely to not come back and he will get paid minus how much I have to pay to get the job finished to a high standard. I'm living in a shithole , don't have access to my livingroom, dust everywhere, having to stay out my home for over a week whilst he's here due to the mess, it's disruptive.
FitSolution2882@reddit
Yes, categorically.
Delicious-Neck2144@reddit
What your feeling is correct. He is taking the piss.
Id tell him to do one. He has failed to do the work nor has he done it in the time frame agreed.
Pay him what you feel like its worth not the full amount.
Id consider doing it over a phone in the evening when he is not there. And then confirm it over text. Last thing you want is to argue with a trader in your own home.
Dapper_Quail3670@reddit (OP)
The thing is I don't know what to pay him for around 27hrs and finishing plaster ? The joiner I had booked in may not come back as he lost work due to me having to cancel on him , domino affect
Affectionate_Comb_78@reddit
Don't think about the time, think about the amount of the work done.
Dapper_Quail3670@reddit (OP)
That'd be vert little
plot_question_uk@reddit
That sounds like a wild amount of work for 5 days. Insanity
Dapper_Quail3670@reddit (OP)
I've decided to give him a deadline for this Thursday, that will be 4 days over our original agreement. I think I've been understanding and reasonable enough. He's still to do all the prepping before the paint work in the hall, walls and ceilings in hall , paint down the sides of my stairs to accommodate a runner. Livingroom walls to be painted , media wall to be sanded and painted. Some of the plaster in the hall is nor finished to a smooth finish , it's bumpy in places. These things themselves I would say is a 3 day job and I don't mean 2 to 3 hrs per day. I speak with him in the morning and say things must be finished by Thurs to a high standard or ill have to get someone else in to finish and whatever they're going to charge will be deducted from the £1500.
sailingduffer@reddit
I wouldn't look at work done, I'd look at the cost of remedying the substandard work. And hold that back.
L-0-T-H-0-S@reddit
You should hold back money. Under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, services must be carried out with reasonable care and skill and within a reasonable time. Since the work is substandard, incomplete, and significantly behind schedule, you are within your rights to withhold payment for the uncompleted or poorly finished parts of the job.
Offer to pay only for the materials used and the hours of satisfactory work. Given the finish is substandard, you may argue the value of his work is significantly lower than the quoted rate, which he hasn't delivered on.
RotaryDesign@reddit
You can also report him to trading standards
Choice_Midnight1708@reddit
The number of hours worked is irrelevant. Stop counting them, it's no good for anyone.
What's happened is the jobs is getting close to half done. In the first instance, tell him to get it done.
Obviously you don't hand over all the money when the job is half done.
Dapper_Quail3670@reddit (OP)
Of course I'm going to count the hours and days especially when the agreement was Mon to Fri for completion, and I then have to cancel the joiner due to lazy tradesman, had he put the hours in Monday to Friday and completed the job then I would be here asking for advice
Firm_Tomorrow837@reddit
Pay only for verified completed work, because the scope clearly isn’t finished and the quality is inconsistent. Document everything and agree on what’s actually been delivered before settling the balance.
Dapper_Quail3670@reddit (OP)
Thanks , tomorrow will be day 8 and he said he'd be completed by Wednesday, no chance he'll be done
Firm_Tomorrow837@reddit
A better approach now is to pause and reassess the contractor. At this stage, it’s reasonable to consider switching to someone recommended through a trusted referral, ideally where you’ve seen the finished work in person. That gives you a much clearer guarantee of quality compared to what you’re currently experiencing. maybe if you know someone who had work done in their house, then you can assess the quality of the work and ask about the worker.
Don’t rush to continue with someone who is already missing deadlines and under-delivering on scope.
FreeBogwoppits@reddit
Also female. I've found being very direct to be the way forward. You've been challenging him every day, so you're doing great.
I'd get rid of him. The work isn't up to scratch and it's slower than agreed.
"Bob, this isn't working. Its not getting done and it's not as we agreed. Let's stop here."
If you want to text him just add "I'll leave your stuff outside", but personally I prefer face to face, ideally in the front garden or somewhere similar.
Don't offer money. Every time I've had a figure in my head ready to pay a tradie off, they either left without asking for money or they've suggested a much lower figure than I had in mind.
Petrichor_ness@reddit
As a woman, I completely understand your feelings when it comes to gender here. I'll quite happily bang my feminist drum all day long but with tradespeople, I take the lead from them. If they're the sort to call me 'darling' ask if I can get the 'man of the house' to check something or crack any 'jokes' about only being allowed an opinion in the kitchen, I'm not bothering with them.
In your situation though, I think you just need to have an uncomfortable situation. Take him through the work he's done that you're not satisfied with or bits he's missed. Ask him if he wants the chance to put it right or just part ways now. I'd also personally push for confirmation on a new timeline (if he wants to continue the job) and possible remuneration he'll concede to if his inability to stick to deadlines results in you having to cancel any further work scheduled.
No_Height_2408@reddit
I have to say I am female and have never had a tradesperson speak to me that way.
Shatter_Build_22@reddit
Definitely sounds like a cowboy! The most frustrating problem is if you let them finish, you may end up having to pay again for someone else to properly do the job. I would be saying I am not happy with the way this is being done, pay them for the work they have done so far (potentially 50%?) and get someone else in. I would definitely not pay the entire amount unless they fully finish the job.
Chopsticks_Charlie@reddit
Carpenter here, he 100% sounds like a cowboy, make sure you keep an eye on stuff around your house because most are thiefs
Dapper_Quail3670@reddit (OP)
Can I just add , I'm a woman and sometimes I feel tradesmen take the mikey as they think woman won't challenge them, I wouldn't normally but I'm stressed with this and fed up with tradesmen taken the p**
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