We need to come together to defend our E-bike freedom and rights in California!
Posted by Major-Philosophy7557@reddit | ebikes | View on Reddit | 265 comments
Everybody in California, We as an e-bike community need to step up and protect our e-bike freedoms and rights from the harmful bills/laws that will come if we don't stop AB 1557 and AB
1942! That’ll affect all e-bike riders in California.
Bad news, AB 1557 and AB 1942 passed through the first step, Good news, there’s still time to stop AB 1557 and AB 1942 from passing the second step.
We must defeat AB 1557 and AB 1942!
E-bikes are not the problem, only e-motos are a problem.
AB 1557 (lowers legal wattage of 250 watts and speed limit to 16 mph) and AB 1942 (forces e-bike registration/licensing with the DMV) will ruin the fun and take away our freedom of e-biking and actually both bills do not address the issue, it punishes legal e-bikes instead, it'll discourage and purge e-bike use, they do not understand the actual difference between e-bikes and e-motos and both bills do not understand the actual problem, e-bikes are not the problem, only illegal electric motorcycles that go 40-70mph are the problem. Legal compliant e-bikes of all class 1, 2, and 3 are bicycles that are safe to ride.
Please support SB 1167 where it actually addresses the issue.
Immediately, we must do everything in our power to Contact your local or every lawmaker, assembly members, senators, and contact governer Galvin Newsom to prevent AB 1557 and AB 1942 from becoming law! We must talk to lawmakers and Governer Galvin Newsom on stopping AB 1557 and AB 1942 and defending our e-bike freedoms and rights.
We must come together and fight the good fight! Defeat AB 1557 and AB 1942!
Support SB 1157!
We need to create a massive movement of e-bikers, cyclist, and lawmakers/government officials who support our cause to defend our e-bike freedoms and rights from any harmful bills/regulations that’ll destroy e-biking culture and lives.
Fair-Discipline-1005@reddit
Everything because of couple of kids and parrents...
Flash728@reddit
I’ve seen them do full takeovers where they go curb to curb on major streets and cause havoc. Then if the cops show up they just scatter. So e-bike owners have done it to themselves.
No_Home_708@reddit
Packs of teenagers have made that impossible
Hairy_Employment543@reddit
Don’t forget their parents who bought them the bikes and let them drive like maniacs.
PurpleFugi@reddit
Given the threat to the riders' lives, I'm not convinced the parents really understood what they were buying for their child.
Cru_Jones86@reddit
As a parent, "I didn't know any better" is a weak excuse.
vivaaprimavera@reddit
The only way for that to end is a high profile media shit storm involving some "marketable" family and CPS on accusations of child endangerament.
Sometimes media circus can have its uses.
TitanB00@reddit
Atlanta just had a death here in old 4th ward.
Cru_Jones86@reddit
That's one way. I've found that reading a description of the thing you're buying is pretty effective too.
PurpleFugi@reddit
I guess my comment was predicated on my observations that in today's online marketplace, the people writing the description do not necessarily care whether it is informative to someone like a parent, they care about what sells. In modern life many parents I observe (I'm not a parent, so I can only observe) are stretched pretty thin.
No_Home_708@reddit
Don't think about how people ought to act, think about how they actually act. You've got to be pragmatic when thinking at scale.
vivaaprimavera@reddit
which can be meaningless for some people.
Spiritual_Wafer_2597@reddit
would you rather see them on dirt bikes?
No_Home_708@reddit
No, Mushrooms and Ayahuasca
LivingDracula@reddit
Then fucking mentor and lead them. They are out there, because their parents are working 2 jobs trying to survive and they have no role models or support systems so they're like fuck it, ride bikes with friends, become Instagram famous.
No_Home_708@reddit
No, you.
Complete-Jeweler-804@reddit
Surron kids did this.
stormdelta@reddit
Surrons were already illegal under existing law, blaming new unrelated laws on that is completely misunderstanding where blame lies.
Complete-Jeweler-804@reddit
Yeah and them being the streets being careless caused these new stricter laws. Ive been in Los angeles riding my zooz bike since 2021. Ive seen it all go down.
stormdelta@reddit
Except these new laws do fuck all about that, because they were already illegal. That's my entire point.
calkop@reddit
And we all saw it coming.
No_Home_708@reddit
Reminds me of how we saw it coming with drones
UhglyMutha@reddit
The parents of these kids are to blame, just as much. There's a big difference between responsible parenting and just giving somebody a $3,000 machine and saying Hope you have fun.
Danube11424@reddit
and don’t get killed acting like a fool.
https://youtube.com/shorts/OX-azH_K89s?si=-r8mpDVDL7snfmXa
stormdelta@reddit
Real problems are poor justification for bad laws.
Shiney_Metal_Ass@reddit
Morons calling anything with a motor and wheels "ebikes" made it impossible
uzziboy66@reddit
I’ve just created a new(to me) nickname or these little chuds.
Sauron moron.
Indy1204@reddit
Yup. Several popular youtubers have done a ton of damage to "e" anythings reputation. Videos of dozens of bikes ripping across lawns, public parks, private property, wheelies down the freeway, blocking traffic, etc. The host at some point will give their PSA about being responsible riders and all that...lol.
They won't stop until its illegal, and posting it on youtube isn't helping anyone but themselves. The only thing you can do about it is protest the laws as they come up, but nothing is going to stop the laws from being written now.
You all know who's videos are going to be referenced when drafting these laws too. Wonder how that will affect their channels when the ban hammer starts coming down?
Its worth noting too that most of the proposed laws don't distinguish between a class 1 pedal assist and a high powered e-moto so they would all get caught up in the same net.
Soltea@reddit
No, not all the illegal ebikes are the extreme e-motos you describe.
I bet half the bikes here on this sub are illegal. People get recommended buying illegal bikes all the time and how to get away with it. The community is itself confused. The bills become because of us. If we had gatekept all the illegal stuff and distanced ourselves from it, maybe things would have looked differently.
EvidenceImmediate681@reddit
Exactly. The number of people on this sub who either ride an ebike with more than 750 watts or advocate for all of the new "bikes" with an astounding 1000 watts + are the problem.
Composed_Cicada2428@reddit
Watts is largely irrelevant. What’s of more importance are top speeds, throttle cut-offs and size.
EvidenceImmediate681@reddit
Watts are not irrelevant and are specifically listed as an ebike qualifying factor in every State code and Federal code.
Composed_Cicada2428@reddit
They’re irrelevant for real world scenarios.
They’re established in regulations at current levels because there wasn’t enough empirical evidence and there was a need for guidelines. Ebikes current iteration is brand new tech in the last 10 or so years.
I form opinions on data and evidence not feelings
EvidenceImmediate681@reddit
You're entire post is illogical. Your first sentence is completely contradicted by your last which makes this all a poorly informed opinion. Do you know what 750 watts is? It's 1 horsepower. It's not some arbitrary number. Ebikes are all limited to 750 watts. There are 4 States that allow up to 1000 watts and 2 that don't have a wattage limit. Your "feelings " concerning wattage being irrelevant don't matter. It is literally part of the law. Bike companies pushing higher power bikes are hoping that the consumer isn't informed (like you) and that they'll buy it, not realizing that they are illegal. Legislation and enforcement are catching up. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.
Composed_Cicada2428@reddit
lol you seem to be unable to process my comments but honestly IDGAF
Beat the anti e-bike drum and I’ll do the opposite
terraherts@reddit
Speed is what gets people injured/killed, not power.
I think 750W is a fine cutoff point, but let's not act like 1000W is some reckless outrageous amount. Even 1500W is barely enough to maintain a direct hub ebike on level ground at 28mph, let alone on an incline or headwind.
CupApprehensive6695@reddit
My 500w hub motor will easily maintain 28 up a slight hill. And I'm not a skinny guy.
stormdelta@reddit
Speed and size are a way bigger problem than wattage IMO, and lower maintenance direct hubs take more power too despite often having no more torque/speed than equivalent geared/mid-drives.
beachguy82@reddit
New EMTBs now have 1500 watts.
EvidenceImmediate681@reddit
This is what I was talking about. And no, they aren't emtbs. They're mopeds legally in EVERY State.
CG_Ops@reddit
I'm curious how this sub feels about setups like my C1 eMtn Bike. I got my eBike b/c we moved just outside city limits with lots of roads like this with strong head winds and traffic whizzing by at 60mph (50mph road).
I'm an adaptive rider, only have use of 1-arm. Between the physical challenges and the roads/conditions, I got a volspeed to uncork the motor to 28mph. I use it to spring through sections without shoulders, as well as to reduce the delta between me and traffic coming up on me. I usually forget to turn off the higher limit when I riding in town, but I still maintain 17-24mph max-average.
My bike is technically "illegal" in several of my riding spots but I've gotten passes from rangers since I'm using it for adaptive purposes. On the other hand, subs like this lean towards a hard-line of "the law is the law". Nuance is dead to many, sadly.
I won't stop riding with my (un)limiter. But I also try not to abuse the situation - I give pedestrians notice and berth and generally respect traffic laws while on the road.
Think-Quiet8015@reddit
E-bikes should be for old folks over 40 to keep up with their kids on carbohydrate-bikes.
stocksareponzi@reddit
I have a Wired Predator and always drive it at max 28mph. But occasionally when a bike lane ends (like construction), I am able to merge into traffic confidently. Why should I be punished?
BoringBob84@reddit
I have an F-350 one-ton truck and always drive it at max 28mph. But occasionally when a bike lane ends (like construction), I am able to merge into traffic confidently. Why should I be punished?
stocksareponzi@reddit
Apples and oranges, you know that.
BoringBob84@reddit
I agree that my analogy is ridiculous. My point is that governments have already listened to bicycle advocacy organizations and set reasonable limits that protect the safety of bicyclists and pedestrians without significantly impacting the utility of ebikes. The people who are challenging those limits are demanding the privilege of bicycles and the performance of motorcycles without the responsibility of motorcycles.
stocksareponzi@reddit
Sounds like you enjoy government overreach.
My case, I’m being safer in every single way including your “bicycle advocacy organizations” with your class limits.
BoringBob84@reddit
Sounds like you conflate accountability with oppression. My thrill and convenience is not more important than the safety of other people. Strict enforcement cannot come soon enough in the interest of public safety and the promotion of micro-mobility. No one should have to be afraid to walk or ride on a non-motorized path or sidewalk because it is overrun with motorcycles.
CupApprehensive6695@reddit
Ah. You only for l do 28 mph in bike lanes. If i keep my kawasaki ninja at 28 or less, can I use bike lanes? Why should I be punished?
stocksareponzi@reddit
Sure, why not?
stormdelta@reddit
A gas motorcycle is significantly louder, larger, and heavier.
CupApprehensive6695@reddit
A wired predator is significantly faster than a class 1 ebike
badhabitfml@reddit
Like all things, a few bad apples spoil the bunch.
Guns don't kill people. My can can go 150 and run red lights, but I never do that.
Jail exists for the few who can't follow the rules.
CupApprehensive6695@reddit
Youre obviously not from California. Speed limits dont seem to exist there. No one follows the rules.
Alberta52@reddit
for the few hahah
Rude-Possibility4682@reddit
Because you're not paying licence tax or insurance, and it's a bicycle and not a motorbike, so if you want to go quicker, then get a motorcycle.
Hungry-Breakfast-304@reddit
What? Everyone I know where I live has bike insurance on their ebikes
bhtooefr@reddit
Is that just insurance against theft, or is it insurance for liability?
Conservadem@reddit
Interesting, this is not the case in the United States.
Jaded_Assistance_906@reddit
Why is nobody blaming the police for not writing tickets or impounding the illegal bikes? I've seen countless videos of kids and adults riding up to cops and asking them if they care about the bike they are riding. Not one of them got a ticket or they're bike impounded even though they were on illegal emotos on the street. There's not just one group to blame.
vegaszombietroy@reddit
Idk why they punish everyone for the holes all the time. And the silly thing is they can geotrack how fast people are going in 2026.
To me, that's the answer. Between traffic cams and geotracking, nail them to the cheaters to the proverbial wall.
Active_Scallion_5322@reddit
How do they get track a specific person?
Hungry-Breakfast-304@reddit
They see you leave your building and everywhere you go.
badhabitfml@reddit
Let's assume that's possible.
To do that for a meaningful amount of people accurately enough to get speed would be insane expensive.
_le_slap@reddit
It's not that hard at all. Flock already likely does this.
badhabitfml@reddit
On license plates, which are easy to pick out on a picture. It can't track a blue suv.
_le_slap@reddit
They absolutely do track vehicles by general characteristics, bumper stickers, and anomalous damage. Theyve long since moved on from simple license plate tracking.
BoringBob84@reddit
Source?
vegaszombietroy@reddit
I had my truck stolen out of my driveway and called a detective friend of mine, and MY security cameras caught the time he did it? He forwarded me to the Auto Theft detail, and they had eyes on the truck within 20-30 minutes, (empty). The cameras narrowed the search area very quickly. They sat on it for 7 hours until the guy returned, caught him with drugs and $3k.
We took our detective friend to dinner, and he told us, how they gather evidence, and how impossible it really is to get away with much today. Even carrying/traveling with a "burner" phone with your normal phone with both powered on, associates them together if you are on their radar.
vegaszombietroy@reddit
And that was 8 years ago. They can get bikes and faces too.
vegaszombietroy@reddit
I had my truck stolen out of my driveway and called a detective friend of mine, and MY security cameras caught the time he did it? He forwarded me to the Auto Theft detail, and they had eyes on the tuck within 20 minutes, (empty). They sat on it, for 7 hours until the guy returned, caught him with 8 oz of heroin and $3k.
During the investigation, they found that he had come over the border that morning, in a bus, fake ID, and simply walked 2 miles to our neighborhood, popped the lock, and ignition and drove away. He had also been deported 5 times in 7 years.
We took our detective friend to dinner, and he told us, how they gather evidence, and how impossible it really is to get away with much today. Even carrying/traveling with a "burner" phone with your normal phone with both powered on, associates them together if you are on their radar.
_le_slap@reddit
Easy google:
BoringBob84@reddit
Thank you for the source.
_le_slap@reddit
np
badhabitfml@reddit
On license plates, which are easy to pick out on a picture. It can't track a blue suv.
_le_slap@reddit
Read the rest of the thread. They can absolutely track vehicles by color and shape.
vegaszombietroy@reddit
https://www.google.com/search?q=how+many+suspects+are+being+caught+be+geo+fencing&client=opera&hs=L17&sca_esv=1cd8785de84224e8&biw=1084&bih=785&sxsrf=ANbL-n6zuwDnW7lIyEjQQ2LDRTM2PeVoBw%3A1776985130845&ei=KqTqabatM9-uur8Pz9mooAk&ved=0ahUKEwi26vq7iYWUAxVfl-4BHc8sCpQQ4dUDCBE&uact=5&oq=how+many+suspects+are+being+caught+be+geo+fencing&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiMWhvdyBtYW55IHN1c3BlY3RzIGFyZSBiZWluZyBjYXVnaHQgYmUgZ2VvIGZlbmNpbmcyBxAhGKABGAoyBxAhGKABGAoyBxAhGKABGAoyBxAhGKABGApI_BVQyg5YzhRwAXgBkAEAmAGdAaAByAWqAQM0LjO4AQPIAQD4AQGYAgigAtkFwgIKEAAYsAMY1gQYR8ICBRAhGKsCmAMAiAYBkAYCkgcDNS4zoAfnNLIHAzQuM7gH1wXCBwM0LjTIBwiACAA&sclient=gws-wiz-serp
vegaszombietroy@reddit
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/04/13/us/google-location-tracking-police.html
vegaszombietroy@reddit
What's that in your pocket? Are you usually carrying someone else's device?
TBL34@reddit
That’s definitely not the answer. I think we all know we can be tracked but to openly vote for being tracked to make sure we aren’t riding a bike too fast is just crazy. Amazes me how quick everyone is to give up their autonomy. And before you say, “we are tracked anyway”…. We aren’t all collectively, personally, tracked 100% of the time as a regulation. There’s a difference.
gihema@reddit
Preach brother. We need to defend privacy. I despise the rhetoric, “we are tracked anyway”. That just undermines our fight to try to have privacy. We shouldn’t give up just because it’s being encroached on with the likes of flock and other companies
vegaszombietroy@reddit
Just wait until you have to have a store's app and swipe to enter a store. Because theft is off the charts. It's coming.
TBL34@reddit
As someone who uses flock for my job, it’s downright scary. It’s an incredible tool for solving crimes or locating criminals, especially when time is critical, but it takes in A LOT of data it doesn’t need.
squiffyflounder@reddit
A bad apple spoils the barrel
King_Wataba@reddit
People love to not finish that saying
spliffs-n-riffs@reddit
And you are no exception.
King_Wataba@reddit
Wtf does that even mean
AnxietyIsHott@reddit
Love a nanny state sicckkk
Conservadem@reddit
I really don't want to live in a surveillance state like this.
Public_Fucking_Media@reddit
lmao it's wild you set the floor of danger at 40mph
dmorulez_77@reddit
For real. Even mopeds are regulated to 30mph.
stormdelta@reddit
Which admittedly needs updating. Mopeds should be 30-40mph in the US as 30mph is too slow to actually use safely on many city roads/streets.
citronauts@reddit
Most large cities have max speeds at 25mph throughout. Cars should max at 65 mph too.
stormdelta@reddit
What large city is 25mph max throughout in the US? Even NYC I think that's only true for the densest city center areas.
citronauts@reddit
I’m live in sf. I don’t really know of many roads that are over that where you are allowed to ride a bike
stormdelta@reddit
I'm in Colorado. I couldn't name a single city here, Denver included, that isn't full of roads well in excess of 25mph that have bike lanes or that allow bikes.
citronauts@reddit
Makes sense, Denver is not very dense so drive times and speeds are much higher. If we are talking about dense cities we could just cap everything at 25
Own_Reaction9442@reddit
I owned an Elite 80 for a while, and I think that should be the new moped class standard. 80cc, top speed of \~45 mph, CVT transmission. It's enough for most around-town uses and doesn't require a ton of skill to ride.
dmorulez_77@reddit
Yup I agree. When riding on a main 45mph road, drivers will cut you off and try and run you off the road because they don't believe you belong there, which in turn makes the riders hug the side of the road sharing the lane. In reality they get full use of the lake like anyone else.
PurpleFugi@reddit
There is widespread regulation around the world for exactly. It would be easiest if our limits were in line with what Europe is doing, as theirs is probably a larger e-bike market per capita and perhaps in overall numbers. I think common limits across multiple countries makes enforcement much easier, esp at the supply side.
stormdelta@reddit
The EU and US are very, very different, and the EU laws here would accomplish little except destroying the e-bike market, especially as it would alienate nearly every last current e-bike owner whose bike would now be illegal as even class 1 exceeds EU regulations.
Most of the US has very poor cycling infrastructure and a lack of other transit options coupled with larger and faster roads, no graduated licensing or vehicle classes, and less density outside of the largest city centers.
ipercepti@reddit
Translated to power, that's 3kw+.
457kHz@reddit
It’s almost like there wasn’t this slippery slope in action until “is there a motor?” was the threshold. Now everyone wants no regulation right up until the thing they already bought and everyone above that power level to be regulated. Strange.
vong888@reddit
I, mean this doesn’t ban powerful bikes, it just means you need to get them licensed, which I think is pretty reasonable. We have the same laws here in Denmark and people still get powerful e-bikes for commuting.
250w is a good amount of power, plus it’s efficient and enables long range biking
Cosmic_Rage@reddit
So, I actually live in San Francisco and speaking from experience with the steep hills in neighborhoods like Noe Valley here, 250 watts really isn't enough to handle the hills here, especially if you need a cargo bike to shlep your kids around. I've used some of the public rideshare bikes, which I think are 250 watts max and they barely function on the steep hills. My legal e-bike with a 750 watt motor crawls up some of the steeper San Francisco hills at around 10-ish mph (16-ish kph). 250 watts might be fine in flat cities or cities where the hills aren't that big, but basically ruins the utility of e-bikes as transportation devices in cities that have steeper hills.
The other thing is something that I don't think a lot of Europeans that live in areas with good bicycle infrastructure don't really understand super well is that we don't have good bicycle infrastructure in most of California and aren't getting that any time soon. For example, part of my commute when I get off the train I take out of the city is to ride on a road with a 35 mph (56kph) speed limit that cars frequently exceed. The bike lane on that road is just paint with no separation from the cars and part of that is no bike lane at all where I'm forced to share the lane with the cars. Another part of my commute is to go over a freeway overpass, because my job is on the other side, where the side where cars are entering the freeway doesn't have a bike lane. While I'm personally a very confident bike rider and will often do that commute on a non-motorized bike for exercise, limiting the power limit to 250 watts and the speed limit to 20 kph means that less people are likely to switch from a car to an e-bike. I already hear from a few coworkers who bike or e-bike outside of work that won't ride to work specifically because of that freeway overpass.
What might work in Europe doesn't necessarily translate to working in the United States.
HadouKang@reddit
I don't think watts are a good measurement because soich of it depends on the setup. I also live in SF. In Bernal Heights and frequently go to Noe Valley for errands. I can haul my wife and I on a Tern GSD with a 250 watt motor easily. But that's because it's a mid drive bike which is A LOT more efficient pedaling up hills.
JazzHandsFan@reddit
There's also the nominal vs peak watts situation which makes things extra confusing. From what I've read, American laws regulate peak watts, but European laws tend to regulate nominal. So for example a 250w European e-bike could compare to a 500w American model.
Cosmic_Rage@reddit
Oh, I fully agree that watts are not the best measurement. I think that speed, and to a certain extent, bike weight, is a much better metric. On my non-electric bike, I can go extremely fast on gravity power alone, and depending on the hill, that has more potential to cause injury in a collision than an e-bike on flat ground going 20mph. I don't even necessarily need to climb a hill with my own leg strength (or lack thereof, let's be real haha) on my non-electric bike to do this either, given that I can take a bus to the top of a bunch of hills in the city and put my bike in front of the bus and then go downhill.
I have a mid-drive with 750 watts. I frequently see it use max power up the more steep hills and can never get faster than 11mph on the very steep hills. For flat ground, do I need that power? Probably not, but it frequently comes in handy. The point is, the common European regulations don't necessarily translate well to American cities and suburbs and if the goal of e-bikes is to be a viable mode of transportation that can replace a car for many trips, a legal power restrictions of 250 watts maximum will make e-bikes less viable as a regular mode of transportation.
BoringBob84@reddit
The relative speed between vehicles creates danger, as well as the absolute speed. When you are going 20 MPH downhill, so are all of the other bikes. When you are going 20 MPH on flat ground, you are passing most other bikes - increasing the chances of a collision.
JazzHandsFan@reddit
Most Americans are more likely to see Bigfoot than get in a bike-on-bike collision.
Cosmic_Rage@reddit
In a lot of places, I'm not riding around other bikes. Most people where I live don't ride bikes because they don't want to deal with the cars. In a place where there's a lot of bike traffic, I agree with you that 20mph might be a bit much, but that's just not how it is in the majority of the United States. If we ever get bicycle infrastructure so that bikes become a common mode of transportation, then sure, maybe a lower speed limit makes sense. We are nowhere near that and won't be within decades. You can take my legal 20mph e-bike out of my cold dead hands.
iregreteverything15@reddit
Nice! Which drivetrain option did you go with on your GSD? I have Gen 2 S00 with a belt and Enviolo, but I live in the midwest. It climbs the 100 ft hill I live on just fine, but I was curious what it would be like in SF.
HadouKang@reddit
I have a Gen 2 S10 LX. So normal chain and derailleur. I don't mind the regular maintenance since I have to do it on my regular bike as well.
I live on a 13% grade 😭. But the GSD handles it just fine! With a combined weight around 400 lbs between my wife and I, I can crawl up the hill around 5-7 mph without getting winded. I think it's a perfectly adequate speed to bike at in SF. You just have to avoid arterial roads and get to know side streets better. I even work outside the city in a much less bike friendly area and can find suitable roads for biking speeds.
Cosmic_Rage@reddit
I looked up that bike and it looks like a nice bike! I will say that I'd be very annoyed if I was limited to 5-7mph for part of my commute, and I personally wouldn't consider that adequate. That said, that seems like that you only have to get that slow when the bike's payload is 400 lbs? How's the speed on the same hill when it's just you?
HadouKang@reddit
Oh easily above 10 mph. Not sure of the exact speed, but I'm keeping pace with residential traffic.
other_view12@reddit
LOL, your special circumstance because of where you choose to live is on you. Not the rest of the industry. Apparently you need to license your bike and you'll be fine. It's not a big deal, and it solves real world problems.
Cosmic_Rage@reddit
The circumstances of where I live apply to literally millions of people spanning multiple timezones. Places in the US like San Francisco or NYC that are relatively bike friendly compared to the rest of the United States are the exceptions.
And, no, the legislation doesn't solve real-world problems. The issues that we have here with two-wheeled electric vehicles are caused by vehicles that are already illegal under existing laws that rarely get enforced. Instead of making new laws that restrict and punish legitimate e-bike users, we should be enforcing existing laws and going after those who are breaking the law.
other_view12@reddit
NYC does not have the terrain that San Francisco has, and it's that terrain that's your problem.
They are. They are passing laws that define what is legal and what is not. Those laws are very reasonable for people who don't have massive hills to tackle.
terraherts@reddit
NYC is about the most edge case of edge cases when it comes to US cycling infrastructure, density, and broader access to transit.
No, they're changing the existing laws, and in a way which is incompatible with most existing bikes that people already own and which is incompatible with the existing laws used by most US states.
They are reasonable for people who only use ebikes as fitness/recreation, they aren't that reasonable if your goal is get less people to use cars and position ebikes as viable alternative transit.
Cosmic_Rage@reddit
Enforcing existing laws and passing new laws aren't the same thing. We already have a legal definition of what an e-bike is in California. It's not some currently undefined thing. The problem is that law enforcement spends next to zero effort at enforcing the existing laws. So, let's say that California passes new laws restricting the maximum capabilities of a legal e-bike, but there's still zero change to what actually gets enforced. Did that solve the problem? Obviously not.
And yes, San Francisco has huge hills. So? I don't think that restricting e-bikes to a puny 250 watts because most of the state is flatter is right because I don't think that the power limit is the problem. People riding recklessly at high (defined as over 20mph) speeds on bikes that are not street legal under existing laws is the problem. Commuters following the law with their 750 watt e-bikes that they keep under 20mph is not the problem.
Roticap@reddit
These bills don't limit the power, right? They just require licensing above 250W sustained?
So you still have options, but kids who don't understand the consequences of crashing at higher energies don't.
terraherts@reddit
The problem is that "licensing" almost always means "driver's license", and I would argue that conflating 20-28mph ebike with a car license is not only ridiculous but wildly counterproductive as it encourages people who shouldn't be driving to continue driving instead of using an ebike.
Most people including me already support age restrictions for more powerful ebikes.
Cosmic_Rage@reddit
Yeah, I'm not necessarily opposed to a system where I can register a slightly more powerful e-bike and still use the bike lanes as long as the bike doesn't go above 20mph. I already have a motorcycle license, so that's not a problem. If I'm going to be honest, I think that if a bike has any motor whatsoever, riders should be required to have at least some class of driver's licenses.
saigatenozu@reddit
I think we've kinda jumped the shark if you're hauling your kids around.
Cosmic_Rage@reddit
Eh, it's not uncommon to see people shlepping their small kids around in a cargo bike in San Francisco. Honestly seems fun for the kids.
BoringBob84@reddit
It is plenty of power if you manage your expectations for a bicycle. A bicycle is not a fast and powerful motorcycle, nor it is a heavy cargo truck.
It is possible for us to show just enough humility to learn from people in other countries. Do you think that no European cities have hills as big as San Francisco?
Cosmic_Rage@reddit
I think that you also could learn a lesson in humility and could lose your condescending attitude. Do you seriously think that I'm not managing my expectations of what a bicycle should be? Do you miss the part of my comment about riding non-motorized bicycles? Also, as someone who also rides actual motorcycles, nowhere have I proposed anything saying that I want a bicycle to be as fast as an actual motorcycle or as powerful as a heavy cargo truck.
But on the managing of expectations of what an e-bike should be, I don't want it limited to be like a non-electric bicycle. I want it to be something that I can ride long distances to work and not show up sweaty, including when I have to wear rain gear because of the shitty weather. I want it to be able to effortlessly carry my groceries up a steep hill. And I want it to be slightly faster than non-electric bicycles, but nothing fast enough to where I'd have to share a lane with cars. A maximum speed of 20mph and maximum power of 750 watts is the perfect medium for that.
And yes, I do have the humility to learn from people from other countries. I read comments all the time here from Europeans who think that their e-bike regulations are superior and can be universalized and have considered a lot why they think that, not all of which is expressed in a relatively short comment that I wrote. Obviously I've considered that Europeans have to deal with some of the things that Americans have to deal with on our roads and urban environments. I think that the European regulations suck and are overly and unnecessary restrictive. If they work in Europe, fine. I don't want that in the US.
terraherts@reddit
I've tried, that poster has a long history of myopic hypocrisy in this sub that they refuse to acknowledge.
They behave as though ebikes are as dangerous to pedestrians as cars, routinely try to portray class 2/3 users are all irresponsible, refuse to acknowledge that most of the US does not have sufficient cycling infrastructure to enable transportation without the use of roads/streets, often claims to only care about what the laws currently says while supporting bans on existing bikes, etc.
Cosmic_Rage@reddit
Yeah, I got the impression that they were arguing in bad faith. Glad to know that it's a long-running pattern with them. But yeah, it was clear quickly that there was no productive discussion to be had with that user.
BoringBob84@reddit
I really wish that more people in the USA would start to care about how their choices affect other people, instead of only what they "want."
Cosmic_Rage@reddit
Do you seriously think that I don't care about that?
I don't think we're arguing for the sake of heaven, so I'm going to bow out of this discussion and block you.
Hungry-Breakfast-304@reddit
They already banned powerful bikes in CA anyways. 750w is the max
gravelpi@reddit
There are plenty of e-motorcycles available that are 100% legal in CA.
mmeiser@reddit
Yes, street legal. With DOT approved lights and a licensce plate. That was never the problem. It is the Surron style that were only ever legal for off road use and the fllood of illegal stuff from china.
terraherts@reddit
Correct, and which these laws do nothing about because those were already illegal.
BuildBreakFix@reddit
Available and legal are two different things. Anything that’s classified as an Emoto is not street legal without registration and plates in California.
Cosmic_Rage@reddit
Yeah, those are generally limited to a few brands that make electric motorcycles that actually ride and handle like gas motorcycles and are capable of highway speeds. For obvious reasons, you need an M1 to ride them and must register them like a gas motorcycle, which is a fairly easy and straightforward process. Those types of motorcycles are very expensive though and don't have the best range, so not many people buy them.
Personally, if it were easy to register an electric moped (30mph+, throttle, but too weak for the highway) and get plates for it, I think that might be a nice thing to have in the city in addition to my e-bike. Right now, it's actually not straightforward to legally register an electric moped, else I'd consider getting one at some point.
terraherts@reddit
Yeah but that's more reasonable for sustained output. I don't totally agree with it, but it's a lot more reasonable than 250w, and is more in line with the three class system used by most other US states.
These new bills on the other hand would accomplish little except alienating most owners of currently legal ebikes and pushing tons of people back towards cars.
CommandCivil5397@reddit
not reasonable at all.
stormdelta@reddit
The problem with licensing is that it almost always ends up being just "driver's license" which is about as counterproductive as you can possibly get as it pushes the people who should least be driving back into cars, among other problems.
250W is plenty for many types of recreational riding, but so many people here are still stuck in archaic mindsets and don't seem to understand that many of use ebikes as actual transportation, not just recreation/fitness.
CubesTheGamer@reddit
I don’t mind having to register so long as it’s not anywhere near the price of registering a car.
If it’s $10 a year for like paperwork charges that’s fine. If they’re wanting like $60+ that’s absolutely ridiculous.
EaterofSnatch@reddit
Forget the mass corruption and fraud, attack the bike riders instead! California is trash. Attacking journalist instead of stopping tax dollars from being stolen, and now going after ebikes. The people in power are disgusting.
jaco1001@reddit
this subreddit is partially to blame. by allowing endless "hur dur my emoto go fast" content on here we have helped normalize the idea that emotos belong in ebike spaces. i am aware of what the sidebar says, i simply think it's wrong.
thirtynation@reddit
Nah not at all. Illegal riding is not celebrated here in any way. Pictures of bikes doesn't normalize anything when the conversation surrounding EVERY emoto posted here is "hurr durr not an ebike."
jaco1001@reddit
legal emotos, being operated legally, should not be allowed here period.
thirtynation@reddit
Well you should go to another sub instead of bitching about it here because they always have been allowed and always will be. No reason not to!
jaco1001@reddit
yeah fuck me for thinking the ebikes sub should be for ebikes, and not for not-ebikes. the fact that it's allowed is bad, it normalizes all this shit, and the end result is legislation like the post above talks about. if you're too small minded and blinkered to see the 1-to-1 here idk if you can be helped
thirtynation@reddit
Nah "fuck you" for trying to rearrange the furniture of someone else's house. Did you know this subreddit has been around for 14 years? Did you know this subreddit has always allowed all sorts of lightweight electric vehicles, as is CLEARLY STATED, in the sidebar? Did you know that this subreddit has TENS OF THOUSANDS of followers?
Oh but we should change the content guidelines because it makes /u/jaco1001 little fee fees hurt. PACK IT UP all tens of thousands of you subscribers that are used to how this place has operated for 14 years. We need to make this guy feel better because he doesn't want to use the proper subreddit.
Get over yourself. Changing this subreddit will not change the real world. Illegal vehicles and riding illegally IS NOT CELEBRATED HERE, and therefor it is NOT NORMALIZED here.
If simply viewing photos of all kinds of vehicles triggers you so much then be an adult about it and leave.
jaco1001@reddit
conservative mentality: "we've always done it this way, so we gotta keep doing it this way forever! sidebar says so!"
you can say that this subreddit doesnt normalize emotos all you want, but the fact that emoto content abounds here, legal and illegal, proves otherwise. we have a responsibility to create a culture on r/ebikes that demarcates between actual ebikes, and things that are not actual ebikes. maybe 14 years ago that distinction was not important, but it is now.
thirtynation@reddit
Smooth brain attempt at drawing any kind of parallel to politics.
Once again, GET OVER YOURSELF.
You have an over inflated sense of the impact this subreddit has and you have a completely self centered opinion on the content that is posted here. We all need to change because you find the content upsetting. Nah, you can figure out how to cope on your own instead of making thousands of people change.
Emoto content doesn't "abound" here. The vast majority of the content here is regular class 1 or class 2 ebikes, and when an emoto is posted there are no shortage of comments pointing out that it is in fact an emoto and not an ebike and there are no shortage of accompanying comments decrying those that ride illegally.
That isn't behavior that is normalizing anything whatsoever. That is behavior that demonstrates the distinction between these vehicles that you are so desperate to keep harping on.
stormdelta@reddit
The more blatantly illegal bikes and behavior is routinely heavily downvoted here.
jaco1001@reddit
legal emotos should not be allowed here period.
FrenchFatCat@reddit
We get downvoted everything this gets mentioned.
LivingDracula@reddit
Agreed and we need an ebike "critical mass" for this, one that's blatantly against cars, oil and dumb war!
Not a bunch of idiots who hop on the opposite side of the highway with absolutely no plan or message or meaning.
We are at this point because social media glamorizes the drama and rage bait so dumb people are doing dumb things for likes on an app...
We don't need to agree completely or be a bunch of rule makers, there are plenty of rules already.
Basic values guys.
Be safe. Be respectful. Be responsible.
And Act Pretti...
Example: So give each other and yourself 5 feet all around for every 15mph if you are gonna pop wheelies or do tricks. It's fun and awesome but this is about respect for the ride and being safe and responsible about it.
If you are riding an ebike, whether on the road, street or sidewalk, fucking yield and slow down to pedestrians, wheelchairs and slower people until you can safely and respectfully pass them.
Gashole cars are gonna be dicks. Be respectful despite it, but take no shit when someone's life is in danger on the road. When someone's in danger, you act Pretti, you do something.
PorcelainDalmatian@reddit
This is part of the reason I left California. They panicked us about “climate change “and demand that we find low/no-emission transportation alternatives. Then, when we find them and start using electric bikes and electric scooters, they move to ban them, or legislate them out of existence. Why are you building all these fucking bike lanes if you don’t want us to bike? It’s maddening.
BoringBob84@reddit
Science is real.
The bike lanes are for bicycles; not for motorcycles.
PorcelainDalmatian@reddit
Change is the nature of climate, you fucking moron. There’s no such thing as a static climate. The climate was changing the moment you plopped out out of your mom‘s ve-Jay Jay, and it will be changing the day we put you in the ground. Panicking people about the natural order of things is nothing more than propaganda.
But some of the bought low emission alternatives like E-bikes, and scooters anyways, and now the very same sanctimonious assholes who demanded we get them, are telling us we can’t use them. It just shows you that they were never serious about reducing emissions in the first place. It was about control.
I guess I’ll just go back to sitting in traffic in my car, belching emissions into the sky, while looking at empty bike lanes.
California can be kafkaesque.
terraherts@reddit
The change we're seeing now is specifically correlated to human changes to the environment. This is pretty settled science at this point, the only real arguments over the details and specifics.
That said, the biggest offenders are all industrial/national scale stuff, not so much actions taken by individuals. Blaming regular people is a tactic used by companies to deflect blame.
You're conflating a lot of very different groups of people here. While I do like that e-bike emissions are lower, it's frankly pretty far down my list of reasons I encourage people to use them, and tons of us are pushing to make e-bikes more accessible and wildly disagree with the bills OP is talking about.
BoringBob84@reddit
The irony of that statement coming from a science-denier is profound.
Practical_Score_1594@reddit
What can we do?
457kHz@reddit
Allow and require bikes above 250w and pedal activation to be regulated, insured, and enforced as a light classification of motorcycles nationwide. Then the goalposts can stop moving.
terraherts@reddit
Conflating 20-30mph bikes that look, handle, and ride like bicycles with motorcycles capable of highway speeds that are many times the weight, power, and speed is ridiculous.
Own_Reaction9442@reddit
That's pretty much what mopeds are, though. In fact a lot of early mopeds were derived from bicycles, not motorcycles; most of them now are step-through scooters because that's what the market settled on, but it's not a requirement for the type.
terraherts@reddit
To me a moped implies that it can be safely used on city roads. And 20-28mph cannot be in most of the US. I'm in a mid-sized town that's relatively bike-friendly by US standards, and even here the slowest residential side streets are 25mph, and you can't really avoid 35mph+ roads if you want to get around practically.
457kHz@reddit
That’s why you have reactionary policies, even in your comment you are moving the goalpost that started at American Class 1. Pay your way and deal with the regulation or get kicked out. You don’t get to ride bicycle coattails anymore if you can’t follow rules.
terraherts@reddit
What goalpost did I move?
Class 1/2 is 20mph, class 3 is 28mph. All three classes have the same power limit (750W). You're talking about treating all of these as motorcycles, which means forcing nearly all existing ebikes to either be e-waste or forced into the road with other traffic, which isn't safe for anyone.
What does any of that have to do with actually improving safety?
457kHz@reddit
Never said I cared about safety, that’s a red herring. I said you need to pick a rule and stick to it, and scrap bikes or punish owners or manufacturers who don’t follow the rules. Everything you have to say about this topic is a whatabout, because you are a large child who can’t admit that you don’t want any responsibility for you actions.
terraherts@reddit
Laws and policies should be based on safety. How is that a red herring, do you know what "red herring" means?
Where have I not done that? Are you confusing me with someone else?
Again, what on earth are you talking about? You're either extremely confused or you've mixed me up with someone else.
457kHz@reddit
E-bike rules in the US are about sales first, access second, and safety third if at all. This is the reason the topic of safety in a discussion about access and registration is a red herring.
Meat cyclists were using public rights of way for well over 100 years, literally fighting for each inch of space once cars took over.
There was an e-bike standard that existed, 250w. Also "moped" in many states. Then it became wattage or speed-based depending on the state. Then it became 3-class system, except that a couple years later, class 1 bikes had walk mode which is a weak throttle assist. What's the point of having 3 different classes if 1 is allowed to be 2 and you push a button to unlock 3+? The goalposts moved.
Then lots of effort went into advocating for class 1 only on trails and shared use paths, which quickly became classes 1-3, which are indistinguishable thanks to industry practice. In my state, a "low powered electric assist bicycle" is defined as a bicycle. The risk stated early on was that motorized vehicles threaten access and clarity for bicycles. Several trails have been closed to ALL bikes because it's difficult to differentiate between types due to the lax industry-contrived 3-class system. Non-motorized easements through private land are all in jeopardy as well.
I'm not confused, I'm just watched the goalposts move repeatedly and assumed that you know about this brief history, now you do.
terraherts@reddit
Targeting sales and access is done in the name of safety. There would be zero point in targeting them otherwise.
If you're talking about how the laws changed over time, that's... not really related to anything I said.
That's not what "moving the goalposts" means. That phrase is for changing the target of an argument during a discussion. You can't apply to that a completely different context than what was actually being argued and expect to be understood.
I'll also point out that even countries with far stricter regulations often allow a walk mode, including the EU.
If we're talking about mountain/forest recreational trails, most places I've seen where I live still specifically ban only class 2/3, or they already banned all bicycles going back long before ebikes. I'm admittedly far more concerned about ebikes as transportation and not so much recreation/fitness.
Considering how stealth and lightweight ebikes can look, I'm not sure things would've been much different for the specific case of recreational trails whether we used the class system or not.
Ok_Cartographer_8893@reddit
The EU restrict e-bikes to a "continuous rate of" 250W and 15.5mph. It seems the kids see this as weak and ride the illegal ones. The bad apples fall quicker if you shake the tree!
stormdelta@reddit
The EU and the US are radically different in terms of roads, cycling infrastructure, transit variety, etc. EU rules would not make sense here, and would also alienate all current ebike owners as you'd be declaring every US ebike illegal.
TitaniumKneecap@reddit
Tbh 250w won't even get me up the hill to my house
qbg@reddit
250W is enough to sustain the vertical component of a 3.6 degree slope at 10 MPH or a 7.2 degree slope at 5 MPH assuming a total weight of 200 pounds.
Verneff@reddit
Except many of the motors aren't a peak of 250 watts, they often peak at 750.
BoringBob84@reddit
That is not "honest." 250 Watts can climb any hill with the right gearing. The problem is people who want motorcycle performance without motorcycle responsibility.
bhtooefr@reddit
European 250 W is... "creatively" interpreted by manufacturers. Basically, the regulation that's used for motor power limits in Europe is one that's clearly written to protect consumers from a vendor fraudulently claiming too much power, but in practice it lets manufacturers "guess" that their motors can only sustain 250 W continuously over a 30 minute test, when they're multiple times that in reality. (Also, a lot of European designs are mid-drives which work through the gearing. And, European designs aren't allowed to have throttles, so you end up pedaling too.)
Olibirus@reddit
Also registered ebikes are allowed up to 28mph but obviously requires insurance.
YakInevitable8770@reddit
This is perfect you guys are always talking about how much you love Europe and how great eur Europe classifies their bikes it's always been under 250
They're supposed to be bikes, which means you have to put some work into them. You need to pedal consistently. It should just be assisted. You guys want electric scooters with no regulations, and you ride them like that.
And again Europe classifies their bikes (Pedelecs)
At 250 15 mph And they must be assisted at all times I.e the engine has to cut off the second you stop pedaling You guys talk about how Europe so great and we should follow their rules we are doing just that
Dude_9@reddit
In California, Class 1 e-bicycles provide pedal-assist only, with motor power cutting off at 20 mph & no throttle allowed (except walk mode up to 3.7 mph); Class 2 e-bicycles also go up to 20 mph but include a throttle that can propel the bike without pedaling; Class 3 e-bicycles offer pedal-assist up to 28 mph, require a speedometer, & prohibit throttles (except walk mode).
YakInevitable8770@reddit
The problem is the potential of the battery; you can't be higher than 250 because it gets modified, also those bikes if you leave them alone. That's one thing, but you guys don't want pedal-assisted bikes. The EU, what you guys say, is the greatest country for biking. Cut it.
You e-bikers in the United States want emoto's with no regulations? It's not happening. We let it happen, and you guys could not be responsible enough. Still, going there is an issue we should follow the EU bike laws because we keep on saying EU is the greatest, most progressive for biking.
Don't need more than 250 w and it doesn't need to go past 15 mph if you are go faster than that then get in shape and get your cardio up.
There is zero reasons for anything more
ChrisBruin03@reddit
Firstly 40-70mph being your danger cutoff is crazy. 25mph if you’re pedalling, 20mph on throttle I think is absolutely plenty. And I wouldn’t mind a licensing system even if it’s just a 30 min online theory test so there’s something to revoke if you’re breaking the law.
At the end of the day I think ebikes are a magic bullet to California transportation issues. Our big cities are just on the cusp of being bike-able and e-bikes fix so many issues as well as giving teens mobility and families a viable alternative to owning a car for every member of the family. I think it’s a shame that people riding what are effectively motorbikes are ruining it. Like I had to pay 200$ and take a 3 day course to get licensed for my motorbike and at 300CC it’s broadly not much more powerful than your average Surron
100BottlesOfMilk@reddit
Also, another thing to consider is that a strong road cyclist probably couldn't go more than 25 mph for very long if they were riding a bike as heavy as an ebike. A 10 or 12 lb bike has way less energy than a 50 or 60lb one when moving if it crashed or anything.
FrenchFatCat@reddit
As a European. Good.
Efficient-Source2062@reddit
Will this impact us eMtn bikers who stay off roads ? I just bought a Specialized Turbo Levo, if I don't pedal it doesn't go anywhere, one needs to pedal. I know we are banned on many trails which is maddening.
Anyway, the only reason I bought one is due to old age and a messed up back.
miagi_do@reddit
Anything about 20mph should require an M1/M2 license.
stormdelta@reddit
Conflating bikes that only go 20-30mph with actual motorcycles doesn't make sense, those are radically different vehicle classes.
miagi_do@reddit
Nope, someone going 30 mph should understand all the rules of the road and riding techniques required to operate a motorcycle. This would save a lot of teenage lives.
stormdelta@reddit
Most people already support age restrictions on class 3 or even class 2 ebikes. That doesn't justify the contents of some of these bills that affect everyone.
miagi_do@reddit
Nope, disagree. Anything over 20mph should require a motorcycle license.
stormdelta@reddit
Why? And I expect justifications to be about safety, not some highly subjective idea of what you think "counts" as a bike.
You're basically asking that we force bikes that only go 20-28mph into the road with cars going 30-45mph, which is wildly unsafe for everyone and will get far more people killed.
And even on principle, treating them the same as motorcycles that are many times larger, heavier, faster, and more powerful is ridiculous.
miagi_do@reddit
If you are riding 28 mph you definitely should not be in the bike or pedestrian lanes for the safety of the people in those lanes. And, you should definitely have proper training on how to safely ride a motorized vehicle for your own safety.
stormdelta@reddit
Multi-use paths or sidewalks, sure. That's already the law in most places.
Bike lanes? Maybe a protected bike lane, but a lot of bike lanes in the US are glorified shoulders and it's not uncommon for road cyclists to exceed 20mph on those.
20-28mph is not "like a car", and ebikes weigh far less than any motorcycle, let alone any car. The threat profile to other people is not remotely comparable, and the most reckless idiot on any ebike is less of a threat to other people than a mildly distracted driver.
No, you're applying a ridiculous double standard of safety to ebikes, holding them to a level of safety relative to their risk orders of magnitude more strict that anything applied to other vehicle classes.
miagi_do@reddit
Well, I support AB 1557. If you want me to call your views ridiculous too I suppose I could do that. Do you need me to or can you just accept people have different views on the matter?
stormdelta@reddit
I want you to explain to me in detail how you imagine that forcing vehicles that only go 20-28mph into roads that go 30-45mph is making ANYONE safer.
If you can't even do that, maybe you need to rethink why you support this legislation.
miagi_do@reddit
It will certainly make pedestrians and normal cyclists safer. Cyclists on average bike at about 10-15 mph. And, it will encourage those who are riding more powerful vehicles to get proper training, and that training will reduce their deaths.
stormdelta@reddit
I'm sorry you don't like the logical implications of what you're arguing, but you didn't answer what I asked. Quoting you again:
You are saying that bikes that can go 20-28mph should not even be in bike lanes, giving them no other option but to use the road. Roads which are in many US cities 30-40mph, and the bike cannot safely keep up with those vehicles. Do I really need to spell out how likely this would be to result in those cyclists getting killed?
And if you try to complain that they should stick to slower roads, that's often impractical or impossible if you're using the bicycle as transportation. Remember, plenty of us use a bike to actually get around, not just recreational/fitness toys.
A fit cyclist can easily exceed 15mph, and athletic ones can exceed 20mph. Most multi-use paths are already limited to 15mph regardless of bike type. If someone is going faster than that they're already breaking the law.
And this still doesn't justify your claim that these bikes can't even use a bike lane for some reason. Most US bike lanes are just glorified shoulders, and I've personally seen countless bike lanes that basically went completely unused until e-bikes came along because almost nobody wants to pedal a normal bike at even 15-20mph with cars going 35-40mph next to them.
The vast majority of increased deaths/injuries from ebikes are to ebike riders, usually by being hit by a car. And from a broader policy perspective, modern cars are significantly more dangerous to both pedestrians and cyclists - the more accessible alternatives to cars we have, the easier it is to hold bad drivers accountable. No ebike is as dangerous as an even mildly distracted driver.
Because I have little patience left for the wild double standards people keep trying to apply to bicycles and now e-bikes.
miagi_do@reddit
I’m a big supporter of the bill and hopes it passes. I’m agreeing to disagree here, but it sounds like you are the my way or the high way kind of guy.
stormdelta@reddit
It only looks that way to you because you've taken such an extremist position and refuse to listen to any counterarguments.
Remember, I'm not the one advocating making virtually all extent ebikes in the US illegal.
miagi_do@reddit
I run actively, also have an e bike, as well as a motorcycle license.
stormdelta@reddit
What does that have to do with anything being discussed?
miagi_do@reddit
Not trying to make e bikes “extinct” as you accused me of.
PorcelainDalmatian@reddit
I’ve gone over 30th on m conventional bike hundreds of times. That means I need a motorcycle license, LOL?! JFC, you people.
miagi_do@reddit
I have both a motorcycle license as well as ride an e bike. If you are going to routinely ride 30mph on city streets I would highly advise you to develop motorcycle riding skills eg how to make sure you are not riding in the blind spot of cars, and definitely the rules of the road (to the extent you don’t have a normal drivers license).
gz1970@reddit
That second bill would alienate anyone who can’t get a drivers license in California for whatever reason. Having insurance isn’t a bad idea though.
terraherts@reddit
I would also argue in general that requiring a driver's license for any ebike is wildly counter-productive.
The most reckless moron on an ebike is still significantly less of a threat to others than a mildly distracted driver. Ergo, you want people who shouldn't be driving to use other forms of transit, including ebikes.
If you make both options equally illegal, guess what, those people will continue driving.
unseenmover@reddit
Im all for it..
Bill Text
The people of the State of California do enact as follows:
SECTION 1.
Section 312.5 of the Vehicle Code is amended to read:
312.5.
(a) An “electric bicycle” is a bicycle equipped with fully operable pedals and an electric motor that is not capable of exceeding 750 watts of peak power.
(1) A “class 1 electric bicycle,” or “low-speed pedal-assisted electric bicycle,” is a bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, that is not capable of exclusively propelling the bicycle, except as provided in paragraph (4), and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 16 miles per hour.
(2) A “class 2 electric bicycle,” or “low-speed throttle-assisted electric bicycle,” is a bicycle equipped with a motor that may be used exclusively to propel the bicycle, and that is not capable of providing assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 16 miles per hour.
(3) A “class 3 electric bicycle,” or “speed pedal-assisted electric bicycle,” is a bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, that is not capable of exclusively propelling the bicycle, except as provided in paragraph (4), and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 28 miles per hour, and equipped with a speedometer.
(4) A class 1 or class 3 electric bicycle may have start assistance or a walk mode that propels the electric bicycle on motor power alone, up to a maximum speed of 3.7 miles per hour.
(5) Notwithstanding paragraphs (1), (2), and (3), an electric bicycle manufactured prior to January 1, 2027, that was equipped with a motor that is not capable of exceeding 750 watts of peak continuous power and otherwise met the legal requirements for the relevant class at the time of manufacture shall retain its classification.
(b) A person riding an electric bicycle, as defined in this section, is subject to Article 4 (commencing with Section 21200) of Chapter 1 of Division 11.
(c) Manufacturers and distributors of electric bicycles shall apply a label that is permanently affixed, in a prominent location, to each electric bicycle. The label shall contain the classification number, top assisted speed, and motor wattage of the electric bicycle, and shall be printed in Arial font in at least 9-point type.
(d) The following vehicles are not electric bicycles under this code and shall not be advertised, sold, offered for sale, or labeled as electric bicycles:
(1) A vehicle with two or three wheels powered by an electric motor that is intended by the manufacturer to be modifiable to attain a speed greater than 20 miles per hour on motor power alone or to attain more than 750 watts of power.
(2) A vehicle that is modified to attain a speed greater than 20 miles per hour on motor power alone or to have motor power of more than 750 watts.
(3) A vehicle that is modified to have its operable pedals removed.
(e) (1) Notwithstanding subdivision (a), a cargo electric bicycle may be equipped with an electric motor with a maximum continuously rated power of 750 watts.
(2) For the purposes of this subdivision, a “cargo electric bicycle” means an electric bicycle that is built with a reinforced frame and integrated rack or platform designed to transport goods or additional persons.
SEC. 2.
Section 21213 of the Vehicle Code is amended to read:
21213.
(a) A person under 16 years of age shall not operate a class 3 electric bicycle.
(b) A person shall not operate a class 3 electric bicycle, or ride upon a class 3 electric bicycle as a passenger, upon a street, bikeway, as defined in Section 890.4 of the Streets and Highways Code, or any other public bicycle path or trail, unless that person is wearing a properly fitted and fastened bicycle helmet that meets the standards of either the American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) or the United States Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC), or standards subsequently established by those entities. This helmet requirement also applies to a person who rides upon a class 3 electric bicycle while in a restraining seat that is attached to the bicycle or in a trailer towed by the bicycle.
(c) A person under 16 years of age shall not operate an electric bicycle with a motor that is capable of exceeding 250 watts of continuous power.
SEC. 3.
Section 22651.08 of the Vehicle Code is amended to read:
22651.08.
(a) A peace officer, as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2 of the Penal Code, may remove a vehicle located within the territorial limits in which the officer may act, under either of the following circumstances:
(1) A person is operating a vehicle with fewer than four wheels that does not meet the definition of an electric bicycle set forth in Section 312.5 and is both of the following:
(A) Powered by an electric motor capable of exclusively propelling the vehicle in excess of 20 miles per hour on a highway.
(B) Being operated by an operator who is not licensed to operate the vehicle.
(2) A person is operating a vehicle that is a class 3 electric bicycle in violation of subdivision (a) of Section 21213.
(3) A person is operating an electric bicycle with a motor that is capable of exceeding 250 watts of continuous power in violation of subdivision (c) of Section 21213.
(b) (1) A city, county, or city and county may adopt at a public meeting a regulation, ordinance, or resolution imposing charges equal to its administrative costs relating to the removal, seizure, and storage costs. The charges shall not exceed the actual costs incurred for the expenses directly related to removing, seizing, and storing the vehicle.
(2) A local jurisdiction that has adopted a regulation, ordinance, or resolution pursuant to paragraph (1) shall publicly and conspicuously post the schedule of charges on their internet website.
(c) An agency shall release a seized vehicle to the owner, violator, or their agent after a minimum of 48 hours, if both of the following conditions are met:
(1) The owner, violator, or authorized agent’s request is made during normal business hours.
(2) The applicable removal, seizure, and storage costs have been paid.
(d) If a peace officer removes a vehicle pursuant to paragraph (2) or (3) of subdivision (a), an agency may, as a condition of release, require the owner, violator, or the parent or legal guardian of the owner or violator to deliver proof that the violator has completed an electric bicycle safety and training program, as described in Section 894 of the Streets and Highways Code, or a related local bicycle safety course, if one is available, as prescribed by authorities in the local jurisdiction.
SEC. 2.SEC. 4.
Section 28171 is added to the Vehicle Code, to read:
28171.
(a) (1) A manufacturer shall not equip any device labeled as an electric bicycle with a motor that is capable of exceeding 750 watts of peak power.
(2) A manufacturer shall not equip any device labeled as a class 1 or class 2 electric bicycle with a motor that is capable of exceeding 250 watts of continuous power or that is capable of providing assistance to reach speeds greater than 16 miles per hour.
(b) (1) A retailer shall not offer for sale or advertise any device labeled as an electric bicycle with a motor that is capable of exceeding 750 watts of peak power.
(2) A retailer shall not offer for sale or advertise any device labeled as a class 1 or class 2 electric bicycle with a motor that is capable of exceeding 250 watts of continuous power or that is capable of providing assistance to reach speeds greater than 16 miles per hour.
(c) (1) Notwithstanding Section 40000.1, a violation of this section is not a criminal offense.
(2) Upon an action brought by the Attorney General, a city attorney, a county counsel, or a district attorney, a person or entity that violates this section shall be liable for a civil penalty not to exceed fifteen thousand dollars ($15,000) for a first violation, and not to exceed fifty thousand dollars ($50,000) for each subsequent violation.
(3) A prevailing plaintiff in an action brought for a violation of this section shall be entitled to an award of reasonable attorney’s fees and costs.
SEC. 5.
No reimbursement is required by this act pursuant to Section 6 of Article XIII B of the California Constitution because the only costs that may be incurred by a local agency or school district will be incurred because this act creates a new crime or infraction, eliminates a crime or infraction, or changes the penalty for a crime or infraction, within the meaning of Section 17556 of the Government Code, or changes the definition of a crime within the meaning of Section 6 of Article XIII B of the California Constitution.
frankiek3@reddit
What do they have against quick connect pedals? Anything can be modified, it's a matter of difficulty.
Pedal assist can be activated like a throttle, whether it's a torque or cadence sensor.
Still can't search or seize without a warrant, articulable reasonable suspicion, or probably cause. One would have to break their speed limits to even get close to being allowed to test the bike.
Continuous and peak motor power are misnomers, and then combining them is nonsense. Was the italics meant to be strike through? A 1 watt motor that can run indefinitely but doesn't self destruct at 1kW for 5 seconds, or at 5kW for a second... then using plank time, no motor allowed. Using the controller electricity limits would have been more sensible. Controllers can put out more than their rated for too. Increasing the voltage up to the component ratings would allow many controllers to break 750w.
The placard will stop in-state bike shop sales, and manufactures selling in those stores will probably opt to label all their bikes.
Sounds like a cultural issue, eventually going down a hill will be illegal. Almost a 12% grade: 32.15ft/s^2 * sin(5°) * 200lbs / 1s = 784.61 watts.
qbg@reddit
Strange that 312.5 defines class 1 as having a peak of 750 watts but makes no mention of continuous watts, yet 28171 prohibits manufacturers from equipping and retailers from selling class 1s with more than 250 watts of continuous power.
hezuschristos@reddit
The people of this sub don’t even agree on what is a bike and what is an emoto. Good luck with government
WilliamBontrager@reddit
Told you guys it would happen if you didnt stop karening about emotos. All you did is attract attention and without fail, less power and less speed will always be seen as more safe. Plus the auto industry is pushing hard to eliminate competition. Congrats karens! You got what you wanted....and more!
Ps. When ever dealing with the government, always push for inclusion, never exclusion, bc you will be excluded too.
Verneff@reddit
It's not the "Karens" in the ebike community that are causing the issues. It's the shitheads abusing loopholes to get illegal bikes, and then acting like the shitheads they are in front of everyone else. If it were "karens" from the bike community causing the issue, the laws being proposed would be far better designed.
stormdelta@reddit
The problem is many of those people are cycling purists that care more about banning throttles and bikes used for anything other than recreation/fitness than anything remotely related to safety. That's where the "karen" label gets thrown accurately IMO.
Most of the bikes regular people are complaining about are dirtbikes like Surrons, and those aren't a "loophole" any more than gas dirtbikes are: they're legal for offroad/private use only.
Bills like the ones this thread is about do very little to combat the bikes people actually complain about, they just screw over normal people and push more people back into cars that are far more dangerous.
Verneff@reddit
That's specifically why I've been pointing at throttles for a while. Enforcement is the major issue. If the only throttle ebikes are ones tagged for medical purposes, then a cap sees someone riding along on something with no plate and they're obviously not pedalling, then they can pull them over and impound the bike and issue a fine to the rider. As it is with the class 2 loophole, it makes it far more frustrating for officers where they'll see something that looks like a Surron but is a knockoff that is fully class 2 compliant. So they'll be seeing some kid riding along and can't say if it's illegal or not and would rather not waste their time on it.
stormdelta@reddit
People like you are part of the problem, and I don't think you guys understand what "loophole" means.
If the bike is legally compliant with class 2, that's not a loophole, it's just a compliant bike. The actual loophole here is that dirtbikes are legal to sell for offroad/private use, it has nothing to do with throttles.
If your complaint is that the moped-style bike is too heavy and that affects safe handling, you might have an actual point, but the response should be to set a maximum weight as that still has nothing to do with throttle.
That's not why cops don't enforce it, it's a mix of not wanting to start a potentially dangerous chase over a relatively mild issue, and/or they're too lazy or it's impractical to chase after them - even lower power ebikes are faster and more nimble than someone on foot or in a car
That's why most of the laws are targeted at point of sale where enforcement is much simpler.
Banning throttles would do almost nothing to help with enforcement, it would just make ebikes significantly less accessible as practical transportation, especially for the very people who should already not be driving.
Verneff@reddit
The loophole is when a dirtbike is sold with vestigial pedals and a software limiter that can be turned on and off in a second in the menus. And it becomes a loophole in protecting the illegal bikes because enforcement is cumbersome with the legal bikes that look near enough to the same.
The moment someone starts fleeing they can stop, but they can still turn on the siren to pull them over and possibly the person will just accept it rather than adding to the laws they've broken.
stormdelta@reddit
Under a lot of states' laws that would still be illegal, so not a loophole, and it would be far more effective to go after manufacturers that do this. I'd also point out nothing stops us from regulating weight or design characteristics.
You realize the same can be done with a throttle right? They're not hard to hide.
What you're basically saying is for cops to harass cyclists on a subjective basis of claiming they weren't pedaling. I don't see any good coming of that, and as I've said, that doesn't line up with the reasons I've heard cops IRL give for the lack of enforcement.
Verneff@reddit
I'm basing the idea off of having heard a few cops saying that they can't be sure if it's a legal throttle or an illegal throttle.
And yes, the limiter I was talking about was on a bike built to be used with a throttle, had a basic cadence sensor so it could be sold as an ebike so that they had a larger audience to sell to. Then there's "make sure you don't use this setting to disable the max speed limiter" instructions. Not sure if that's actually started being cracked down on, but I remember seeing a bunch of videos of bike companies doing exactly that.
stormdelta@reddit
If the person isn't being reckless, it's not really a problem, and if they are, that in itself is already a good justification to stop the person if you're able to.
And it's not like cops can tell if a bike is too powerful from looking at it either, you need wire testers or dynos for that after you've already stopped the bike.
Speed can be objectively measured. I don't want cops making subjective decisions about if it "looks" like someone is pedaling or not.
Right, we can easily make that illegal and target manufacturers who do it, which would be way more effective than targeting individuals post-sale. As I said, that's already illegal in some states.
Verneff@reddit
The issue is that a lot of the companies are Chinese shells meaning you'd just end up playing whack-a-mole as you take down huhihj but they just relabel their bikes bhiuhu and start selling again the next day.
WilliamBontrager@reddit
Why not change the laws to make them legal for onroad use to allow tags and then fine the ones doing the shenanigans now that you can easily identify the idiots? Theres a reason why people buy surrons. They are fun and fill a very large hole in transportation. Why not go with it and create a new category of vehicles with new rules instead of banning anything new?
WilliamBontrager@reddit
Lol ok. See whenever you complain, the government always over regulates. They dont listen to you bc you complain, they take the opportunity to seize power and control over the area of complaint. They dont care about addressing your complaint. They only use your complaint as an excuse. If no one had complained, nothing would have been done, and every ebike would remain unregulated, including yours. Thats why its the fault of whining karens and not the shitheads.
Rich-Hovercraft-1655@reddit
I dont mind getting a license for ebike riders. The reasons for a license are similar for both vehicles. Ebike kids and ebike riders that blow through stop signs because they think it doesnt apply need to be educated
CommandCivil5397@reddit
very unreasonable to require licensing and registration
terraherts@reddit
A car is many orders of magnitude more dangerous to other people than than even the most irresponsible ebike rider.
I'd rather someone with a DUI use an bike than go back to driving a car without a license because we stupidly decide to make them equally illegal.
stormdelta@reddit
Licensing only for higher power bikes and it must be a separate, far simpler license. If it's the same as a driver's license it's completely counterproductive from a safety POV, because the most reckless ebike rider in the world is less of a threat to other people than a mildly distracted driver
The last thing you want is people who already shouldn't be driving to have less legal options to work with.
ATonyD@reddit
Licensing also creates a "barrier to entry" when our society would benefit from more ebike riders. Yes, we want consequences for bad actors. But there are alternatives for creating consequences - alternatives which are less harmful to society.
Brewna@reddit
Getting a license isn't going to stop people. I see cars blow reds on a daily basis.
Hungry-Breakfast-304@reddit
You can buy cigarettes and alcohol which have killed many people over the years but you can't buy Vapes because they think kids want that and that will harm the kids in California. Ebikes is in a similar situation no one cared until they realized little Timmy was riding one. You can fight like hell but if it's anything like Vapes it doesn't matter it just got to say kids are in danger and it will win.
King_Wataba@reddit
No one cared until little Timmy was doing wheelies and running from cops and killed someone on a emoto
terraherts@reddit
The vast majority of injuries/deaths from ebikes are to the ebike riders, not them hitting other people.
King_Wataba@reddit
If they killed themselves on the emotos then they killed someone. I didn't say murdered.
silverback1371@reddit
Such_Can_5353@reddit
as a rider of an illegal ebike, i support these bills. whole nation should be adopting similar resolutions so we can limit the import of e-waste from china and prevent people acting stupid and getting injured and killed.
Trackmaniac@reddit
License and Insurance, nothing bad to be asked for.
Suckbag_McGillicuddy@reddit
Nothing in the text of AB 1557 says what OP claims. It makes a couple of changes to existing law. There's no limit of 16mph anywhere in the bill.
Legislative proposal
Key_Neat9071@reddit
You're linking/reading an old version of 155, click the 'newer version' link toward the top of your link or. https://legiscan.com/CA/text/AB1557/2025 , it limits future ebikes to 16mph.
Suckbag_McGillicuddy@reddit
Thank you!
OP - if possible please put links to bills in your post
thephotoman@reddit
I’m coming to realize that most of our problem is the standard pearl clutching about kids on dirt bikes.
Are there kids in my neighborhood popping wheelies on their Surrons? Very yes. I even saw a whole group of kids on their ebikes doing all sorts of things that made me clutch my pearls
But here’s the thing: it’s always been like this. Youth motocross bikes are and always have been a thing. I remember the 20th Century, after all.
The ebikes aren’t the problem. The kids aren’t the problem. The problem is that we all see kids doing things we know they shouldn’t, and we feel powerless to advise them, much less stop them.
BoringBob84@reddit
No it hasn't. Motocross motorcycles are expensive, loud, and stinky. This made it impractical for most kids to own them or to ride them on non-motorized trails. Technology has changed that.
Yes, kids will always push the limits and do stupid things. That will never change. However, the tools that we allow kids to use should be appropriate for their level of responsibility. In the past, we did that with good parenting and requirements for driver's licenses.
thephotoman@reddit
Tell me you’re not old enough to remember the 20th Century without saying so.
bhtooefr@reddit
Hell, last year I literally saw a kid riding a Honda CRF110 on the sidewalk. That's always been super illegal, but...
YakInevitable8770@reddit
This is perfect you guys are always talking about how much you love Europe and how great eur Europe classifies their bikes it's always been under 250
They're supposed to be bikes, which means you have to put some work into them. You need to pedal consistently. It should just be assisted. You guys want electric scooters with no regulations, and you ride them like that.
And again Europe classifies their bikes (Pedelecs)
At 250 15 mph And they must be assisted at all times I.e the engine has to cut off the second you stop pedaling You guys talk about how Europe so great and we should follow their rules we are doing just that
Oneicehorse@reddit
https://youtube.com/shorts/OCc_w_jrH-s?si=hmvA2HR_tB_FLa1h
Oneicehorse@reddit
This guy has been fighting for e-bikes
_byetony_@reddit
You should describe these bills including the one you want right up top this post is not well laid out
Suckbag_McGillicuddy@reddit
Is there a reason OP didn't include links to the text of the bills?
sometimessheis@reddit
Support CalBike.org as your states bicycle advocacy group. Donate. Attend events. Show support. Participate in group rides. It’s important to do so in every state.
WorkPiece@reddit
You can't stop it. There's always cunts that ruin things for everyone else. You got these 50mph fucks scaring the uneducated aholes that don't care to understand the difference. On top of that, those aholes always want control of everything because they are lowlife power-trippin liberal commie wankers, so registration it is.
Hungry-Breakfast-304@reddit
Liberal? Lmao just as many Republicans hate them too if anything more of them do
Conservadem@reddit
Absolutely. In SoCal all the high-power adult ebike riders are definitely conservative.
TarnishedVictory@reddit
Don't be a douche bag making this about tribalism.
vivaaprimavera@reddit
Blame it on low taxes and defunding of education. It always leads to a population that
vegaszombietroy@reddit
They can geotrack people via their phones and other devices, shit my bike itself is on the internet soooo...
chupacabra-food@reddit
What is this learned helplessness? People can absolutely stop or rewrite bills when they organize. Happens all the time. This bill could absolutely be reworked to please both parties
EvidenceImmediate681@reddit
Of course emoto riders contributed to this but also the ebike world who continue to gaslight us all that almost the entire new crop of "class 1" bikes released this year with super high wattages are still ebikes. They are mopeds in every State. And yet most people here think they're the bees knees and they can't wait to get one and tear up the local trails. I'm all for legislation that completely neuters the ebike industry and forces them to comply with local laws. You all did this to yourselves.
Burrito2525@reddit
I live in Nj and a bunch of these type of bills passed. It’s annoying. Not everything needs to be registered and even insured in some cases.
Mainly due to dumbass kids and their bad parents who don’t give a shit. I hope CA fights back.
Burrito2525@reddit
I live in Nj and a bunch of these type of bills passed. It’s annoying. Not everything needs to be registered and even insured in some cases.
Mainly due to dumbass kids and their bad parents who don’t give a shit. I hope CA fights back.
Burrito2525@reddit
I live in Nj and a bunch of these type of bills passed. It’s annoying. Not everything needs to be registered and even insured in some cases.
Mainly due to dumbass kids and their bad parents who don’t give a shit. I hope CA fights back.
just_stopping_bye23@reddit
Whether it’s e-bikes or emotos kids are going to ride in packs and block traffic, happens in every state, e-motos are not the problem, reckless kids with careless parents are the problem.
InfluenceEfficient77@reddit
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/loginClient.xhtml
Search the bills here and write your comments
mmeiser@reddit
Also. Talk to your local bile shop or bike club if you belong. People For Bikes might have some sort of suggested course of action they are an industry lobbying group. Also, this is when of those things where it might be important to pick up the phone and call or write your local representative.
Gullible_Video_3350@reddit
There has been no progress on AB 1942. The Transportation Committee has not taken any action on it.
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billHistoryClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260AB1942
Nador_Titzoff@reddit
Easier to lump all bikes together when it comes to clueless lawmakers. I think it's all down to em protectin' automobile makers.. Tin foil hate theory I know.
badhabitfml@reddit
Could you explain what each bill does?