Jewish man among first charged in pro-Palestinian slogan crackdown that reminds some of 1970s Queensland
Posted by BabylonianWeeb@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 239 comments
saoirsedonciaran@reddit
A phrase demanding liberation for Palestinians being characterised as 'a terrorist phase' with criminal convictions is not something that should be taken lying down. It will NEVER ever be wrong to demand rights for Palestinians and this law must be resisted all the way.
pasher5620@reddit
Not like it’s the first time. Israel, for decades, successfully made the term Intifada equate to being mass terrorrist attacks and not a rebellion against their cruelty and abuse. They will twist anything into the exact opposite meaning if it makes Israel’s enemies look bad.
saoirsedonciaran@reddit
All the more reason why people should embrace phrases like 'globalise the intifada' and educate each other on what it means rather than parroting the line of Israeli propagandists.
Graphene-OS@reddit
Intifada pisses me off more than the others. It’s just a word in another language. It has a definition. Jake Tapper and Dana Bash have no right to redefine a standard Arabic word and say it means “killing j••••.”
The very nature of the Arabic language means that word specifically cannot mean something aggressive done to others. The root (n f D) means to shake off. The verb form (ifta3al) means it is reflexive and done with specific intent for one’s own sake, often with an implication of necessity. An intifada cannot mean an act of aggression; it can only mean shaking off a smothering oppression.
It’d be like if Iraqis redefined the English word “freedom” to mean murdering Muslims, and anyone in the world who expressed support for any sort of “freedom” was characterized as wanting to kill Muslims.
Stubbs94@reddit
Also, if pro apartheid demonstrators shout the same but in support of the occupation, they will face no justice. The ruling party in Israel has the same slogan.
saoirsedonciaran@reddit
'From the river to the sea' is a phrase that is the very first line in Likud's founding charter which explicitly denies a Palestinian state.
Yes, it is literally legal to call for genocide and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians but not legal to call for their freedom.
The proscription of Palestine Action was insane. This is a category of ridiculousness far beyond that.
Sloppykrab@reddit
It's the same when applied to Israel. 'From the river to sea' is asking for the mass removal of a people and has been adopted by Hamas. It's a call for genocide on either side.
ThePlacidAcid@reddit
Palestinians exist all across historic Palestine. All these people deserve to be free.
Sloppykrab@reddit
Yes but not at the expense of others.
Historically the Irish lived in England and Whales thousands of years ago, would you be okay with them moving back and kicking you you out?
BroMan001@reddit
What if those others are living there at the expense of them?
Sloppykrab@reddit
Two wrongs don't make a right.
BroMan001@reddit
I didn’t say that. You think Palestinians deserve to be free “but not at the expense of others”, but you also believe israel should be allowed to occupy (parts of) Palestine, even though that’s at the expense of others who want to return home? Or did I misunderstand?
Magjee@reddit
Buddy, with freedom from oppression...
...someone moving would just buy the property
The idea of replacement is not associated with Palestinian Freedom
ThePlacidAcid@reddit
Palestine being free means that Palestinians are no longer oppressed. It means the indigenous people of Palestine having the right to self determination. Currently, that right only exists for Jews.
The goal of the pro Palestine movement is not to kick all the Jews out of the region. The goal is to end the occupation and oppression the Palestinians face.
saoirsedonciaran@reddit
The phrase in Likud's charter explicitly says 'there will be no Palestinian sovereignty'.
We don't need to imagine what they might have meant when their policies have supported real life ethnic cleansing at every step of the way.
Please stop talking nonsense and inserting baseless insinuations. There is not a shred of foundation to your argument.
Sloppykrab@reddit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea
Head down to Use by Palestinian militant groups.
BroMan001@reddit
Decolonisation is not genocide
saoirsedonciaran@reddit
Am Yisrael Chai is chanted by armed zionist terrorists. By your logic, everyone that's ever said this is also a genocidal terrorist?
Sloppykrab@reddit
I think we can agree that no?
Ropetrick6@reddit
So you acknowledge thay Israrl is a terrorist state.
Sloppykrab@reddit
They could be.
What about the USA?
BroMan001@reddit
Yes, the usa (and Australia for that matter) are also settler colonies that should ideally be returned to their native inhabitants
Ropetrick6@reddit
As far as I know, Likud is not the official government of the USA. Though AIPAC should absolutely be prosecuted and imprisoned.
GriffinNowak@reddit
If I walk around with a Nazi flag in Germany I don’t have explicitly state my ideology for people to know what it means.
saoirsedonciaran@reddit
Yes because it's a symbol of a nazi regime that killed at least 10 million people.
As opposed to a phrase saying that Palestinians should be free.
😂 you are wacky as hell
GriffinNowak@reddit
See! You just don’t understand my ideology. I’m actually walking around Germany because I was Germany to be a socialist republic again! This means it’s not actually a crime and it’s wrong of you to think I’m talking about killing people.
saoirsedonciaran@reddit
Your argument would almost make sense if the tens of millions of people calling for liberation of Palestinians were also calling for genocide, which has never even been documented ever.
You're not fooling anyone.
GriffinNowak@reddit
Oh if we’re going to play dumb then the Palestinians are already free :)
saoirsedonciaran@reddit
You basis of your argument is baselessly saying that virtually the entire world wants to genocide Jewish Israelis.
Whilst in actual reality Israel is committing genocide and ethnic cleansing as we speak.
Exit the delusional fantasy in your head.
GriffinNowak@reddit
I don’t think as many people are chanting “from the river to the sea” as you think are. And I heavily suspect even fewer of those chanting know what it means.
saoirsedonciaran@reddit
It's the bog standard chant at thousands of regular protests across the UK and Ireland alone. It doesn't have some magical hidden meaning just because you say so.
Which is a hilarious accusation given that zionist activists are free to explicitly call for 'death to arabs' without criticism on a routine basis.
GriffinNowak@reddit
Great! In that case the Palestinians are already free. So what do you want to change? Attacks to stop? Then they need to stop attacking Israel? Occupation to stop? They need to acknowledge Israel’s right to exist and stock attacking Israel. What else do you guys want? I’ll make it really easy to make it happen by telling you exactly what needs to happen.
saoirsedonciaran@reddit
Gaza has been under siege since 2006 and the West Bank is at the end stage of total ethnic cleansing.
No amount of blabbering will get around the very concrete reality that we can all see very clearly.
GriffinNowak@reddit
West Bank is at the end stages of ethnic cleansing with an increasing Palestinian population? Are … are you sure you know what the result of ethnic cleansing is supposed to be?
Has Gaza stopped attacking Israel since that siege began?
councilmember@reddit
I can’t imagine why. Please explain why exhorting freedom for a group equates for you to genocide of another group. At best that sounds like overreach.
HockeyHocki@reddit
If you are making the case the old Likud slogan is 'genocidal' it's pretty disingenuous to claim it means something warm and fluffy when Palestinians say it
In Likuds case it was about preventing something that doesn't exist (Palestinian state) vs the Palestinian phrase (destruction of an existing state). if anything is genocidal its the latter
Bussy_Busta@reddit
Except one side is committing genocide while saying it
HockeyHocki@reddit
You must be referring to Hamas on oct 7th so given Likud haven't used that phrase in well over 25 years,
Bussy_Busta@reddit
No I’m referring to the very very scary student groups in the west who are the most terrifying thing on the planet right now ooooo so spooookyyyyy 👻
Please ignore the bombs being dropped on kids (until it’s time to buy more)
Shady_bookworm51@reddit
weird how its still in the Likud charter if they haven't been using it in that long...
saoirsedonciaran@reddit
I did not say or imply that, the full quote is about denying Palestinian sovereignty.
HockeyHocki@reddit
What are you saying yes to here if not the sentence preceding it?
Is something valid when it outside the realms of possibility? Nobody with two brain cells to rub together will tell you a single state solution is feasible. And as far as two state goes, that's not compatible with the river to the sea slogan so it's moot
No it didn't
saoirsedonciaran@reddit
Read the actual charter.
People say a united Ireland isn't feasible. They said that ending apartheid in South Africa wasn't feasible.
There is no workable two state solution because there is no reliable way to draw the borders without displacing huge amounts of people. In any case, this is way beyond the scope of this thread. A one state solution is only impractical if you envisage the continued subjugation of a people.
HockeyHocki@reddit
I've read the charter mate, how about you pick out the bit where Hamas said they would accept a two state solution. I've highlight below the part where they explicitly reject an Israeli state on those terms
saoirsedonciaran@reddit
lol the statement literally accepts the Palestinian state on 1967 borders. They are saying they would accep those terms whilst still in opposition to the zionist regime.
The same way that Irish republicans conceded to the terms of the good friday agreement in Northern Ireland. Republicans still oppose the northern irish state under British rule but ending hostilities in favour of advocacy for united Ireland via political mechanisms such as a referendum.
HockeyHocki@reddit
lol? ffs it's not an "acceptance of two states" if you do not accept 1 of the 2 states😆
saoirsedonciaran@reddit
Which part of 1967 borders did you not understand? What do you think is meant to be on the other side of those 1967 borders?
HockeyHocki@reddit
That would be a state that Hamas have not accepted and do not recognize.
saoirsedonciaran@reddit
And why would they accept the legitimacy of a criminal regime engaged in the genocide and ethnic cleansing of their people?
They have abided by the terms of ceasefire and expressed a willingness for workable solutions. They can do that whilst opposing the genocidal regime where 50% of every citizen of that regime wants to see every single human being in Gaza dead - men, women and children.
HockeyHocki@reddit
Why would they accept Israel? Good question, you should go look that up
Why did you claim Hamas accepted 2 states when they didn't?
GriffinNowak@reddit
Hamas does not recognize the 2 state solution. You are so deep down your pro-Hamas rabbit hole you lost the plot of their entire ideology.
Stubbs94@reddit
It's an Israeli law to never recognise a Palestinian state. At least Hamas has offered a truce along the lines my fellow Irish person lined out. Israel has only offered subjugation.
GriffinNowak@reddit
Israel does not recognize any state that does not recognize it. Hamas has not offered a truce in which they recognize Israel’s right to exist.
saoirsedonciaran@reddit
The 2017 charter conceded that a Palestinian state may exist alongside Israel.
None of this matters anyway because its Israel that is literally committing genocide and breaching the ceasefire agreement as we speak.
GriffinNowak@reddit
No it does not. Unless you claim that Israel also acknowledges the two states seeing as Israel currently recognizes the areas of Gaza and West Bank as existing.
saoirsedonciaran@reddit
Israel does not recognise Palestinian sovereignty or any possibility of Palestinian sovereignty.
GriffinNowak@reddit
Palestine does not recognize Israeli sovereignty or any its right to exist and this ability to gain sovereignty. In the eyes of the current Hamas leadership at least.
saoirsedonciaran@reddit
People have a right to exist. Genocidal apartheid regimes do not have a right to exist. Nation states in general don't have a 'right' to exist
There is a universal standard of rights that are centred around people rather than political ideologies that draw imaginary lines across the land. That is what International law gives precedent to.
GriffinNowak@reddit
Nobody is claiming they don’t. People are claiming that they need to stop attacking Israel and acknowledge Israel’s right to exist.
saoirsedonciaran@reddit
Israel has breached the ceasefire agreement on every single day since the latest 'ceasefire agreement' was signed off. Thousands of breaches, hundreds of Palestinians slaughtered and malnutrition rife again.
GriffinNowak@reddit
Hamas has breached the ceasefire agreement every single day since the latest ‘Ceasefire agreement’ was signed off. Thousands of breaches.
I agree it’s disgusting how Egypt hasn’t opened its border to Palestine to allow food aid in.
saoirsedonciaran@reddit
Again, just saying things that have absolutely no foundation in reality doesn't make them true.
Egyptian complicity in genocide doesn't wash away Israel's direct culpability. I note that this point is an extremely popular talking point of zionist sockpuppet accounts.
GriffinNowak@reddit
It is entirely true that Egypt does not allow massive amounts of food aid in despite being entirely able to. You seem to acknowledge that. That being said I completely agree that just saying things doesn’t make them true.
I look forward to your protests against Egypt for starving the Palestinians
saoirsedonciaran@reddit
Criticism of arab states is consistent and routine across the global solidarity movement in advocating for Palestinian rights. The likes of Jordan and Egypt are widely seen as having played a role in this genocide.
Try another talking point.
GriffinNowak@reddit
Uhhh no…. I am yet to see any protests against Egypt or Jordan? Why? Egypt at least is starving the Palestinians.
saoirsedonciaran@reddit
There are hundred of countries with direct and indirect complicity in this genocide as pointed out by the UN special rappoteur on human rights.
The protests you see on ths streets around the world are demanding Palestinian rights and an end to genocide and ethnic cleansing.
You don't get to demand shit.
GriffinNowak@reddit
There are not other countries that directly border Gaza and could have saved thousands of lives by giving the Palestinians somewhere safe to flee.
The UN has not called for Egypt to be criminally prosecuted for this either. Despite it being against international law.
Where are all the calls to allow these Palestinians to escape to Egypt? I must be missing them. Has the Egyptian president been prosecuted for his role in this genocide? I missed that.
I could say you don’t get to demand shit either.
saoirsedonciaran@reddit
lol there are LITERALLY boats crammed full of Irish activists on the second global sumud flotilla on there way to Gaza at this very moment crammed with humanitarian aid, including people I know.
Move on, you're not gonna win this hasbara game
GriffinNowak@reddit
Great! So the Irish government will be sending large ships to pick up the millions of Palestinians and bringing them to Ireland? I bet the Israelis would even chip in to fund that. Or is it just some rafts crammed with symbolic idiots that could have done more by putting the money towards chartering a ship to actually deliver supplies as opposed to bringing the Palestinians 6 slices of bread.
The people you know are doing something called “virtue signaling” and are wasting their time. I’m sure you’re proud of them though.
saoirsedonciaran@reddit
People have a right to exist. Genocidal apartheid regimes do not have a right to exist. Nation states in general don't have a 'right' to exist
There is a universal standard of rights that are centred around people rather than political ideologies that draw imaginary lines across the land. That is what International law gives precedent to.
BackseatCowwatcher@reddit
Now read the actual 2017 charter.
TLDR- no.
saoirsedonciaran@reddit
The concession of 1967 borders is conciliatory in that it maintains its opposition to the zionist regime whilst accepting the reality of two states.
Stubbs94@reddit
Why is that worse than what Israel is doing? I also don't believe a Jewish supremacist state or any supremacist state should exist. That doesn't seem like a problem. I thought Israel wanted peace? Why would they refuse it to continue the violent occupation of Palestine?
GriffinNowak@reddit
Why is what worse? And why refuse what? Why doesn’t Hamas and Hezboullah refuse peace with Israel if they want the violent occupation to end?
Stubbs94@reddit
You know what a truce and negotiations are? That's peace. They offered an initial 10 year cessation of all hostilities as a Fatwah, a religious pact. Israel refused it.
GriffinNowak@reddit
Israel has repeatedly offered peace as well. Hamas refuses it.
Stubbs94@reddit
Would you agree to a foreign power having control over your borders, and full military access as well as agreeing to having 0 capability to defend yourself? The West Bank isn't resisting that, yet the Palestinians there are being murdered daily in state backed pogroms.
GriffinNowak@reddit
Let me make it easier for you let’s change the countries involved. If the Mexican cartel shot rockets and repeatedly attacked the US over its borders over the course of a few decades what do you think the US is going to do to Mexico? This is because Texas used to be part of Mexico and they want it back. What do you think the US is going to do to Mexico? I’ll give you 1 guess.
DorkHarshly@reddit
This state of mind is wrong. Your cause can be just but you framing can be wrong in the same time. To demonstrate, saying "kill all Jews" is wrong even if you support liberation of Palestine. Both chants mentioned are that ( in softened language). Literally no one will have have (a legitimate) objection to "Free Palestine" or "End occupation" but calls for violence are dog whistle for extremist elements (as apparent in such cases as Bondi Beach). Cant understand the insistence on these, as it weakens the Palestinian cause.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
DotkHarshly:
Nice try, but no, calls for a free Palestine are apparently terrorism too, according to Zionists on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/1kssryl/what_is_free_palestine/
Every phrase supportive of Palestinian human rights will be portrayed as calls to violence or antisemitism by Zionists. Something as innocent as “don’t kill children” was recently declared to be antisemitism by a host of different Zionist and Jewish groups as well as the Israeli government. Similarly to how Ms Rachel was hounded by false accusations of antisemitism and declared antisemite of the year, anything and anyone who expresses any support for Palestinians will be labelled as an antisemite or calling for violence against Jews. Never against Israelis, always against “Jews.”
Bowing to pressure to self-censor one phrase just leads to more pressure to self-censor other phrases. It’s a deliberate tactic by the hasbara squad. If you start caving into pressure once you will keep caving in and eventually even saying “Palestine” will bring hysterical accusations of antisemitism.
DorkHarshly@reddit
Good strawmanning. I am a Zionist and I support Palestinian human rights. As almost everyone I know around me.
We have conversed before and you are unable to make coherent point without misrepresent my opinions.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
DorkHarshly:
Issuing statements of fact with evidence isn’t strawmanning. I showed how “Free Palestine” is assumed to be a call for genocide by Zionists on reddit.
I’m not going to self-censor because you find a phrase inconvenient. You will simply find another phrase inconvenient and then another and then another.
DorkHarshly@reddit
Oh sorry, did you mean to say "some but not all Zionists"? Otherwise, I think one Zionist can disprove your claim.
Huh just yesterday I had a convo with another fascist who was refusing to stop misgendering and using N word with same excuse, word for word. Funny stuff.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
DorkHarshly:
Sure. But then I’ve found most Zionists will say one thing and then change. “Free Palestine” may be acceptable to you now but in six months it a year?
“You’re a fascist and a racist. Trust me, bro.”
DorkHarshly@reddit
1.
Keeps reminding me of that one interaction.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
“Everyone who points out I’m wrong is an antisemite! Especially if they have proof and I use ‘trust me, bro…’” followed by “trust me, bro…”
DorkHarshly@reddit
I am allowed to say antisemitic shit because I actually am antizionist, even though I just call for violence against Jews worldwide ...but when it actually happens it's not because I called for it but because... mystery reasons.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
You’re not very good at this. You’ve failed to capture anything that I’ve said. Probably because you don’t listen. However I can show you what you are essentially saying: “Every call for Palestinian human rights is a call for genocide…”
RisingDeadMan0@reddit
Glad ur brought up the ISIS adherants up, bunch of crackpots who like to kill people, equivalent of the israeli settlers, who are supported, funded, armed and protected by the Israeli state...
And of course River to the sea is Likud charter too.
And talking abou contraversial points, here's a 1978 Oscar speech, Zionism is racism, by a Jewish Lady, and this is before the 18 year occupation of southern lebanon by Israel, 1982, to 2000 or first intifada 1987. Crazy how long this has been going on for.
https://www.facebook.com/share/v/1D4ZKbw1TH/
Netenyahu born 1949, 1978 he was working for BCG (boston consulting group).
DorkHarshly@reddit
Likud charter (which is also wrong obviously) speaks of both bank of Jordan river since 77. PLO used "from the river to the sea" since the 60's.
Not sure how saying "other side does bad stuff" excuses genocidal chants. Both can be true.
Gonna disregard the tin foil hat stuff for now if that's ok.
w8str3l@reddit
Can you quote the first two paragraphs of the original Likud charter and explain how it is not a genocidal chant?
DorkHarshly@reddit
Where did I say that identity of user matter when spewing hatred? I just said that PLO used it first.
w8str3l@reddit
How did the person interviewed in the fine article we are discussing, Stephen Heydt, the 73-year-old Jewish clinical psychologist, "spew hatred”?
Did you find any evidence of hate speech in the article?
DorkHarshly@reddit
The very statements of "from the river to the sea" and "globalize the intifada" are inherently calls for violence. Some people who chant are not violent, but the calls inherently are.
Plenty of other chants outthere but insistence on these is pretty telling by itself.
w8str3l@reddit
So you’re admitting you found no evidence of hate speech in the reporting of the protest, then?
Excellent.
Now that that’s settled, can you quote exactly what Stephen Heydt, the 73-year-old Jewish clinical psychologist, chanted and also had printed on his t-shirt, and explain how it is “inherently a call for violence”?
If you have trouble finding the phrase in the article, search for “Jews for a free Palestine”, and you’ll find it tout de suite.
Stubbs94@reddit
Why do you believe the call to emancipate the Palestinians from occupation and Apartheid is genocidal? Are you that delusional or propagandised that you believe if the Palestinians acquire the same basic human rights as Israelis, it will be the end of all Israelis?
DorkHarshly@reddit
All these objections are raised each time that anyone online has this discussion. I believe you see the issue with the slogan (but only when it is used by Likud for some reason)
This is not a call for emancipation or equal rights, but a call for one state, i.e. erasure of Israel. It specifies the borders.
It is as genocidal when used by Israeli right, Palestinian right or useful idiots in the service of ether.
Stubbs94@reddit
The difference between what the Palestinians want and what the Zionists want is very simple. The one state solution proposed by those in favour of Palestinian human rights is a democracy for all. The one state currently in place is based off of ethnic cleansing and Apartheid. You cannot be democratic and a supremacist state like Israel. If Zionists wanted to coexist they wouldn't be ethnically cleansing the West Bank.
DorkHarshly@reddit
Not sure where to begin to address this. How about... Gaza strip did have democracy for all. Except Jews, gays, political dissidents of Hamas, women rights activists, etc. etc. those mostly had to die. Why the double standard? Are you liberal or selective liberal?
Stubbs94@reddit
The Gaza strip is and was under military occupation by Israel. Your logic is flawed, and Gaza is a part of Palestine, no Palestinian claims it as separate to the occupied West Bank. I'm not liberal, I'm a socialist. Would providing the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank self determination within a single state in the region really be that bad?
DorkHarshly@reddit
Gaza was not under the occupation since 2005. Israel removed multiple villages to allow peace process to take place. WB is not significantly different on human rights stance. Unless you are a first socialist who cannot distinguish democracy from tyranny, where you fall on liberal scale is irrelevant.
I am all for providing one state for Palestine in WB and Gaza but " from the river to the sea state also includes Israel, which is obviously the only issue I have with this chant.
PartySr@reddit
So why where different commodities banned from entering Gaza? Why was Israel counting the calories for each Palestinian in Gaza? if they were not under occupation, they should have had the freedom to import anything they want, and yet, Israel blocked them.
DorkHarshly@reddit
You seriously need to look up what is occupation. No Israelis in Gaza after leaving in 2005. Commodies entering through Israel were subject to extensive customs checks to prevent arming of Hamas... Egypt surprisingly did the same.
All of the above does not affect in any way ones decision to, for example, throw gay people from the roof, so a bit out of subject. Gaza was supposed to be a functioning democracy and not allowing weaponry and such in should not affect it.
PartySr@reddit
Yeah, chocolate was too dangerous in Hamas hands, and Palestinians being fed more than Israel allowed was a travesty to Israel. Is impossible for Israeli to not lie.
Yeah.. Because of that, you decided to kill all of them. Absolutely disgusting comment.. and then you wonder why people want to destroy the current Israel. You people are sick.
Stubbs94@reddit
The funny thing is that 0 queer Palestinians have been thrown off of roofs in Gaza by Hamas for being a member of the LGBTQ+ community. The punishment (still disgusting and wrong) for being gay in Gaza by Hamas is imprisonment and is a continuation of British colonial laws.
DorkHarshly@reddit
This make it better but only marginally, if true. Not sure why you find this funny. Israel was also under the same British laws. I personally know at least couple of gay Palestinians through my queer friends who had to run for their lives.
Also (albeit WB not Gaza) one minute of search.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-63174835
And ... still not clear... what abuse of human rights has to do with Israel, how does occupation or blockade or bombing is an excuse for violence towards gays, women, Jews etc.
Stubbs94@reddit
Because you're making up shit to paint the Palestinians in Gaza as barbaric. The Palestinians don't do violence against "Jews". They are not fighting Israel because it's Jewish, it's because it's the fucking occupation. I don't judge people living under brutal occupation by the same standards as those who are occupying them. It's not right that being LGBTQ+ in Gaza is punishable (not sure why you think there is discrimination against women in Gaza when they don't even adhere to Sharia law). In occupied West Bank for instance, there are no laws against being gay and there are Palestinian pride organisations. The instances of gay Palestinians being unfortunately executed have been executed because Israel blackmailed them into being informants, and were killed because of it.
DorkHarshly@reddit
Lil dude you decide to join the discussion. I can't teach you history you need to read a bit by yourself and also stay on the subject.
Fact: 2005 there were no Jews in Gaza. Villages were removed, people resettled, even cemeteries were moved. Is this fact or delusion? If that is true than there was no occupation.
Do you want to say there was blockade? This maybe is partially factual.
And you seems to think that I support all Israeli actions for some reason. I do not, but this is not what we are talking about.
voidox@reddit
it literally is fully factual, Israel had total control over land, sea and air in and around Gaza, they destroyed Gaza's only airport, IDF's navy has always been in the sea stopping any shipping/boats from leaving or entering (they've attacked, boarded and even killed sailors who tried) and Israel has full control to completely control things going in/out of Gaza whenever they want, from aid to people.
wtf else do you want to call that? That level of control over a tiny piece of land where 2m+ people were forced into, it's called a concentration camp/prison.
voidox@reddit
how can you have a functioning government, let alone a democracy, when another country is still occupying and killing you? wtf fantasy land do you zionists live in that Gaza was somehow totally left alone by Israel? history is right there for anyone to see, your hasbara doesn't work.
Gaza is a prison for it's people, a prison run by Israel. The whole "duh prevent arming Hamas" is just BS cause a lot of the stuff Israel stops from going into Gaza is not "arming" anything, food, medicine, etc. are not "arms" and Israel has openly admitted to all this with their "putting Gaza on a diet" and "mowing the grass" admissions over the years.
BatHickey@reddit
They’re planning on lying to our supposedly stupid faces until the very last Palestinian is murdered, then make it illegal to mention it.
Stubbs94@reddit
Do you believe a single, secular democratic state within historic Palestine is a bad thing?
DorkHarshly@reddit
What do you refer as historic Palestine?
Stubbs94@reddit
The current land consisting of the occupied Palestinian territories and the Apartheid state of Israel.
DorkHarshly@reddit
Not sure why do you call it historic then...
Then I do think it is a bad thing. In short, the reason is that it prevents self determination from Jews.
Stubbs94@reddit
So if both Jews and non-Jews have the same degree of self determination in this new state... Jews don't have self determination? You're not talking about self determination, you're talking about ethno-supremacy. You are an ethno-supremacist.
DorkHarshly@reddit
Nope I am talking about two state
Stubbs94@reddit
So would you accept a return to say, the 1967 borders, and a fully independent Palestinian state that has sovereignty over its own borders? With 0 Israeli oversight or ability to exert control over the region. The capital would also be East Jerusalem.
DorkHarshly@reddit
100% and I believe that at least half of Israel believe the same but very sceptical reg. security guarantees
voidox@reddit
what? how does having a single state with equal rights do that? is the only way for "self-determination" for Jews an ethnostate and doing war crimes? wtf is wrong with you?
voidox@reddit
classic zionist, crying about a chant while ignoring all the chants that come from zionists + acting like this chant is the big deal we need to look at, not the genocide or ethnic cleansing.
also your issue with the chant is just your fantasy nonsense made up in ur head that you think will happen if Israel was not an apartheid ethnostate and stopped it's war crimes, sorry that's not anyone else's problem that you genocide defenders fantasize about the genocide of others cause it's just projection.
Shady_bookworm51@reddit
i love when those that are so morally broken as to support Israel claim there was no occupation post 2005 when a objectively look at the facts on the ground show it very much was occupied. Israel still controlled anything of any real meaning even after the withdrawal including Airspace, their power and water and even the population registry.
DorkHarshly@reddit
Everyone here sure love to move goalposts. I answered it to the other guy.
TraditionalGap1@reddit
Yeah, that's not genocide. At all.
DorkHarshly@reddit
So surely you don't have a problem with Israeli right wingers who use the same rhetorics.
TraditionalGap1@reddit
Correct. The only problem I have with their usage of the same rhetoric is the fucking blatant hypocrisy
DorkHarshly@reddit
What's the hypocrisy?
voidox@reddit
that you only cry about anything to do with freeing Palestine and that a chant has you going off about "omg it would be a genocide" (a fantasy made up in ur head) but the ongoing genocide is no big deal for you.
yeltsin98@reddit
It’s a call for the erasure of Israel in its current form, yes, whose foundation is a genocide of the Palestinians. Why would anyone want to maintain a state that rests upon - if you reject the term ‘genocide’ - the annihilating repression of another indigenous people?
A handful of Israelis support the Land for All project. Whatever you want to call it, the idea is an Israel-/Palestine-shaped state that grants equal status to both peoples. If equality amounts to what you rush to term genocide, that would seem to call for some earnest introspection on your part, not anybody else’s.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
It’s the Israeli belief that everyone is like them, so everyone is as genocidal as they are.
voidox@reddit
yup, every accusation is a confession as we all know with zionists, so they think the only way for Palestine to be free is their insane fantasy of "duh all will die" in Israel or w.e. and they unironically use that made-up fantasy to justify the genocide and occupation/aggression.
just insane stuff.
yeltsin98@reddit
This is, to answer your question, what they believe, yes.
Granting the Palestinian the right of return would, to paraphrase, amount to inviting a horde of antisemites who want to kill them into the land, or at the very least share it (where would they be housed?) while staring them down antisemitically (think of the white woman who called the cops on the black birdwatcher in NYC; their mere proximity is threatening). Granting Palestinians anything like equal status, meanwhile, would mean the end of a Jewish state for the Jews, and either that political reality alone or their belief that this would open the city gates to rocket-wielding Palestinians conjures the image of genocide in their minds.
To make it simpler, granting Palestinians another inch would spell their demise in their minds, yes. It is how they justify the Gaza border wall. It is how they justify not letting Palestinians return. It is one reason they refuse to even acknowledge the existence of Palestinians as a nation, telling them to go to some other Arab country.
They believe all Palestinians want to kill them. More Palestinians, more potential murderers. More rights, higher likelihood of murder. And somewhere in this delusional calculus you get a genocide.
mnmkdc@reddit
In the US at least, the president himself has used “Palestinian” as a slur. You genuinely cannot say free Palestine without tons of people viewing you as calling for violence
DorkHarshly@reddit
I did say "legitimate" didn't I? Why strawmanning? Remove the tin foil hat baby
mnmkdc@reddit
That’s totally arbitrary though. I think your complaints aren’t legitimate, but they matter because people who share your views are in power.
DorkHarshly@reddit
Good thing that we have evidence that we can use to support ones claims in order for it to stop being arbitrary
mnmkdc@reddit
No we don’t. A phrase being used in an individual act of violence doesn’t just mean it’s a dogwhistle forever. If that were the case then pro Israel phrases would be deemed as terrorist phrases as well. You’d have to evaluate something like this is on a case by case basis, which you’re clearly not talking about.
What this actually stems from is the false premise that being anti Zionist means you want the Jews of Israel to be genocided. That’s the reason why “from the river to the sea” is viewed as a terrorist phrase. That’s why the word “intifada” is strictly associated with terrorism during second intifada rather than any of the non violent protests and boycotts, the first intifada, or any other struggle against oppression.
DorkHarshly@reddit
Yes all we have to do is ignore the actual meaning of the words, their history, the usage of the words by the perpetrators, the red flags raised by the receiving party and we are good and dandy. Now do the same for roman salute and white power slogan etc.
If you are in a crowd and bunch of them zieg heiling, I hope you will be able to read the situation.
Neither of the phrases mention Zionism, it's just you trying to change the subject.
mnmkdc@reddit
I’m saying the opposite of that. They only can be construed as calls for terrorism if you ignore the meaning of the words, their history, and the usage of the words. Obviously phrases like that have been used during terrorism and extreme violence, but so have pro Israel phrases (and logically even more frequently). The Roman salute was always a fascist salute and the white power symbols are specifically used for that, so not exactly good examples for you.
I absolutely can read that situation. It’s completely different from the topic at hand. This article is about a Jewish person arrested for a phrase that YOU are perceiving as supporting violence against Jews. Clearly this is not someone doing Nazi salutes.
I didn’t say they mentioned Zionism. “From the river to the sea” is generally used as an antizionist phrase. Israel has worked hard to act like antizionism is not only inherently antisemitic, but is calling for the genocide of Jewish people in the land. This allows for them to push for the ban of antizionist phrases under the guise of opposing hate crimes. It was on topic.
DorkHarshly@reddit
Easy to disprove.
e.g. Intifada i.e. "resistance" has been used historically to indicate specifically armed resistance (e.g. first and second intifada) as opposed to for example to peaceful protests who was not referred as such, historically. Calls for globalizing the intifada is a call for armed resistance worldwide. And of course some (not all) people see it as a call to harm all Jews (coming back to Bondi beach as recent example). Since this call has been legitimized we can see rise of antisemitism but specifically violence. Think about it, how common is violence towards private Russians abroad which has been "caused" by the actions of Russian government?
Roman salute was roman salute before fascist salute, all lives matter was a call for equality before it was an answer to BLM, swastika was indian symbol before being hijacked. All relevant examples. Seems you actually have trouble in reading the room.
There is high correlation between antizionism and antisemitism cause definition of Zionism has been hijacked. Until 2023, it was self determination for Jews in the land of their fathers. Now both ends shift the goalposts and use different definitions. If you think that settler violence is wrong you are not antisemite but it also does not necessarily mean that you are antizionist. If you think that jews do not have the right for self determination, than you probably both.
In the middle east, i.e the focal point, historically, both calls are calls for violence.
renlydidnothingwrong@reddit
No, both chants are not that. One is and the other is a call for total national liberation. Calling for an end to israel is not the same as calling for the death of Jews.
DorkHarshly@reddit
We have evidence to dispute it. E.g. people globalizing the intifada at Bondi beach. If multiple extremists and receiving party all see it in the same way, maybe it is a clue also for useful idiots, don't you think?
Jet90@reddit
Bondi was ISIS which has nothing to do with Palestine. ISIS never attacks Israel. ISIS thinks all countries in the middle east should be part of one ISIS country and remove nationalities.
DorkHarshly@reddit
Maybe try reading more. Or ask mom why did they chose Jews and not, say, Norwegians.
alekhine-alexander@reddit
You are like the last generation of Rhodesian settlers or white South Africans during apartheid. They also never imagined the apartheid would end, the natives would take control and be free.
No matter how many babies you murder, hospitals you bomb, prisoners you torture and rape it doesn't matter. You will most likely live longer than the genocidal settler-colonial entity known as Israel. Maybe then you will see that all of this is wrong and all the murders your country has committed were for naught.
MaestroRozen@reddit
It's deemed a terrorist phrase because it is one. Sorry, but only one group of people is getting upset by the fact they can't openly scream genocidal chants, and it ain't the group that only wants freedom ans rights for Palestinians.
saoirsedonciaran@reddit
It isn't a genocidal chant just because you say it is 😂.
There is not a single documented instance of this phrase being ever been accompanied by genocidal rhetoric or ideology.
It's a phrase that has crossed multiple generations of Palestine solidarity activists and it has never ever been understood as anything other than a call for liberation and end of occupation.
You know it too, but you think you can throw out this unsubstantiated bullshit and get away with it to promote the propaganda of a criminal regime.
You can't and won't. Wind your neck in
MaestroRozen@reddit
If you're going to turn a blind eye to every time it was used by a terror group and its' supporters, I can't stop you. By all means continue supporting basic human rights of Palestinians to live in a land without Jews that the phrase entails. You and all the other like minded people are the reason why Israel exists and is radicalized to this point.
saoirsedonciaran@reddit
Haha get a grip man.
How does this logic work sorry? If an armed resistance group ever repeats a bog standard chant for liberation it's suddenly off limits for everyone in the world?
By that logic, should I assume that everyone that's ever said Am Yisrael Chai is a zionist terrorist and should be slapped down with criminal convictions when they utter it?
Your selective application of the rules mirrors the apartheid ideology that you are defending.
MaestroRozen@reddit
Words snd symbols are given power by the groups using them, and by how they're using them. I could go out wearing a swastika armband while claiming that I'm actually a devout Buddhist. Would people be at fault for giving me a stink eye or the police for apprehending me?
Also, I'm not defending any ideology. I haven't defended Israel with a single word. But for the sheep following the completely black and white, us or them mentality I guess it's too hard to comprehend that one can be pro-Palestinian without also being an antisemite. The two are not mutually exclusive.
saoirsedonciaran@reddit
And the groups that are using the phrase all around the world are rights campaigners and antiwar activists.
We're not talking about wearing swastikas. We're talking about liberation for Palestinians.
MaestroRozen@reddit
Of course, "right campaigners and antiwar activists". You're right they're talking about liberation of Palestinians - liberation from Jews in general, that is. Again, your mentality is the reason why Israel exists and is radicalized to this point.
saoirsedonciaran@reddit
Even the most radical most extreme faction within Palestine envisages a call for a single state for all religions and none. Even Hamas conceded that a two state solution is workable. There are no groups around the world arguing for genocide of Israelis lol, even amongst the most radical fringes. There is only one criminal apartheid regime committing genocide still as we speak, whilst you ponder about a fabricated baseless insinuations about phrases calling for the liberation of a people.
Literally millions of people starving in fuckin' tents still getting bombed and shot and you're fabricating these fantastical delusions in your head so you can justify criminalising people calling for an end to this genocide. There is absolutely no validity to your argument.
Azurmuth@reddit
Hamas only sees a 2-state solution as a stepping stone to destroying Israel.
And I wonder why people think groups like Hamas are arguing for genocide...
BroMan001@reddit
Same old lazy zionists tricks, no one is falling for this anymore. Using the old charter doesn’t trick anyone.
Azurmuth@reddit
https://www.reuters.com/article/world/leading-hamas-official-says-no-softened-stance-toward-israel-idUSKBN1862O4/
BroMan001@reddit
Not a substitute, a supplement. Ending the occupation of all of Palestine seems like a logical position for them to take.
MaestroRozen@reddit
You're aware that charters of Hamas and similar organizations are publicly available documents, right? Only people your "but it's a call for peace and equality" rhetoric works are those too dumb to do the most basic research. Truly, Netanyahu is beyond thankful for y'all supposed anti-genocide people who're in fact just upset that the situation isn't reversed.
saoirsedonciaran@reddit
The Hamas charter accepted a two state solution since 2017.
In the present day, they have abided by the terms of the ceasefire agreement whilst Israel has openly floated the ceasefire agreement thousands of times at this stage killing at least 800 further people in Gaza and committed even further to ethnic cleansing in both the West Bank and Gaza.
Arguing baselessly that I'm actually a genocidal maniac is mere projection of your own genocidal sentiment and ideology.
You are not fooling anybody.
MaestroRozen@reddit
While not repealing the previous charter, not accepting their neighbors as real country and simply replacing the word "Jew" with "Zionist" in most if it, which is the same in their views.
Also, I'm not defending Israel. On the other hand, you're the one trying to push calls for terror and genocide as words of peace and tolerance. So there is one person here projecting genocidal sentiment and ideology, all right, and that person is not me. Either way, I'm done arguing with someone who holds that mentality. You can't change hatred and radicalization through Reddit after all.
saoirsedonciaran@reddit
And yet you're defending the genocidal apartheid regime and its propaganda talking points at every step of the way, instead of just accepting that people have every right in a democratic society to call for the liberation of a people.
Nowhere in nearly 20 years of commenting on Reddit have I ever endorsed any form of terrorism or genocide. You make these smears out of desperation because you know your points have no validity whatsoever.
Nobody is fooled. Give it up
MaestroRozen@reddit
Please, point out a single sentence - no, a single word - in which I defended Israel.
You, on the other hand, are claiming to not endorse genocide while claiming a genocidal chant is a call for freedom. I can't tell if you're too dumb to see what you're doing or just a hypocrite, honestly.
saoirsedonciaran@reddit
There is no amount of blabbering that will ever make a call for liberation a call for genocide, just because you say so.
It's a classic tactic by sockpuppet accounts and zionist activists to pretend to be taking a neutral stance even though you have consistently defended the baseless zionist propaganda that seeks to criminalise calls for liberation of a people.
What's your motivations in lying about this phrase exactly? You still haven't been able to articulate why it's a genocidal phrase because you know it's an argument with zero foundation.
MaestroRozen@reddit
No amount of blabbering is going to change a phrase used by terror organizations, and written in the charters of those same terror organizations, into a call for liberation either. And frankly, if you consider that "zero foundation" there is no hope. Which I guess you know which is why you're projecting "desperate and pathetic smears" right back and resorting to ol' reliable "everyone who disagrees with me is a Zionist".
So, have a good day. The state of Israel is truly thankful for the service of useful idiots who equate antisemitism to the Palestinian cause. You're the best agents they could've asked for - and they didn't even have to pay you for it.
Ropetrick6@reddit
Water is drunk by terrorist organizations, does dhat mean that drinking water is a call for terrorism?
saoirsedonciaran@reddit
Give it up
Ropetrick6@reddit
Water has been drunk by terrorist groups, ergo everybody who drinks water is a terrorist or terrorist supporter.
your logic doesn't work.
HamunaHamunaHamuna@reddit
You mean a meaning reversal (peace between Jews and Palestinians in the Levant) by a Jew of meaning of the phrase that has been adopted by the ruling Israeli party Likud since the 70s that refers to the exact same thing (genocide) but against Palestinians? So not only double standards but a condemnnation of calling for the opposite?
HockeyHocki@reddit
The PLO were chanting river to the sea long before Likud were around, before the occupied territories were even a thing. They were calling for the jewish state to be dissolved, nothing has changed in 60 years
BroMan001@reddit
What??!! No way! The Palestine Liberation Organisation chanted a phrase calling for the liberation of all of Palestine? For the occupying force to leave and dissolve their occupation? Who would have expected that? How dare they?
HockeyHocki@reddit
I know right
boringhistoryfan@reddit
https://jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party
So you're arguing that Likud is a terrorist organization? Would that make the government of Israel also a terrorist organization?
MaestroRozen@reddit
I can't help but notice you didn't dispute my point before defaulting to whataboutism so thanks for agreeing I guess.
boringhistoryfan@reddit
Mostly because I'm not really opposed to the idea of declaring many of the groups involved on the anti Israeli side such as Hamas or even Hezbollah as terrorist organizations. But I do wonder whether folks like you would apply the same standards to the anti-palestinian side.
You declared only one side used genocidal language but that seems to be grossly inaccurate. And shouldn't you be much angrier at the Israeli government being led by a terrorist organization and it's prime minister presumably being a terrorist if the phrase is a terroristic one? Or is it only terrorism when some people use it?
MaestroRozen@reddit
Did I declare only one side using genocidal language? Please, point out a single sentence in which I defended Israeli government in any way, shape or form. Apparently, being of an opinion that you can both support the Palestinian cause while also being against the prosecution of Jews is a controversial opinion these days.
boringhistoryfan@reddit
Given the use of genocidal language by groups on both sides, your position is fairly disingenuous I think.
MaestroRozen@reddit
In case I wasn't clear enough, I condemn it on both sides. But still, with the supposed pro-Palestinian side trying to convince me that genocidal chants are actually calls for basic human rights I fully stand by my word there. There's only one group of people who equate living in a land without Jews a human right.
Ropetrick6@reddit
Nobody is calling for a land without Jews, except for you.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Saying “Palestinians should have human rights” is genocide now. Wow, how far has western society fallen.
MaestroRozen@reddit
Well the man didn't get arrested for a T-Shirt saying "Palestinians should have human rights", did he now? The chant used has a clear meaning, and equating it to the pro-Palestinian cause only serves to harm it.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
MaostroRozen:
That is rubbish. The chant has a clear meaning, and Palestinians have explained it tens of thousands of times. Only the terminally Zionist say a call for freedom is a call for genocide, usually while supporting the Gaza genocide and West Bank ethnic cleansing.
The level of hypocrisy is absurd.
MaestroRozen@reddit
Keep telling yourself that, and keep wondering why Israel is so radicalized when people like you are trying to equate a call for cleansing of Jews to a call for human rights. I'm sure you'll find the answer somewhere along the way.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
MaestroRozen:
Israel has killed 20,000 children but they are radicalised by what I said? Really? What do you call 20,000 dead Palestinian children? A completely non-radical and rational approach to peace building?
Really, this whole pretence that Israel is innocent and that people criticising it for mass murdering children are the real villains and somehow making it commit atrocities is a new level of pitiful. Me saying something is bad, so Israelis killing children is my fault.
MaestroRozen@reddit
No, they're radicalized by the mentality behind what you said. The same mentality which lead to creation of Israel as it is in the first place. The entire country is a creation of antisemitism through and through - it's an end result of centuries of persecution across the globe. And you, either pretending to be anti-genocide while parroting genocidal chants of the other side or too ignorant to understand the meaning behind your own words, are showing that the world which has created Israel never really changed.
Ropetrick6@reddit
Israel is radicalized by its own dogmatic refusal to recognize Palestinians as human beings. They are the only ones responsible for their own radicalization.
Just a friendly reminder, Israel has attacked first, every single time, since day 1 of its existence. It decided to start out by committing genocide, and it has never once stopped in its pursuit of that goal.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
So after mass murdering 20,000 children Israel is the true victim here? No, it’s not. The existence of antisemitism doesn’t give Israel carte blanche to mass murder innocents. Me calling it out isn’t antisemitism either, no matter how much you want to conflate antisemitism with criticism of Israel.
Israel isn’t the victim here. Your demand that Israel not be criticised is just a continuation of the calls for complete impunity for Israeli actions that started with the Nakba in 1948 and continue until today.
CluelessExxpat@reddit
He is not arrested for the writing on the t-shirt alone. Because 2 people can say the same thing but mean different things. For police, they make the "reasonable assumption" that the phrase on the t-shirt is used for a meaning that would;
indicate one of these.
One of the arrested person said regarding the phrase "I believe it’s [about] people’s inalienable right to be free". And you can not argue against that.
Thats why in higher, 2nd, 3rd level courts, people arrested are found non-guilty.
But the idea is of course not to imprison them but rather create an environment where such protests are not scary and insanely troublesome.
Its usually countries like mine, Turkey, that use such laws to punish protestors or people that criticize the government but i guess Australia doesn't mind mimicking Turkey when it comes to oppression of free speech and rights to protest.
MaestroRozen@reddit
Whatever the people might actually think when saying a phrase doesn't change what the phrase actually means, and since people can hear and see but can't read minds that meaning is what you'll be judged by.
Also, don't forget that Australia recently suffered a large terror attack fueled by the very same extremist ideology the phrase is associated with. Its' "oppression of free speech" only came in the aftermath - and not wanting to gamble on whether someone spouting extremist phrases is an actual extremist or simply too stupid to know what the words they're saying mean is a perfectly valid response.
Token993@reddit
Go to pro-israel march, drop a 'river to the sea", no problem. Go to pro-Palestinian march, drop a 'river to the sea', arrested and charged. Only one of those two groups is genociding the other and it ain't the Palestinians
MaestroRozen@reddit
What pro-Israeli march? For a very good reason, people don't exactly support Israel to the point that those rallies and extremist language used are a common occurrence. And especially not in countries that are fresh off a massive Judaism-motivated terror attack.
But let's for a moment say that these imaginary pro Israeli protests are a thing. Everyone calling for genocide should be arrested. You see, I'm of an apparently controversial opinion that genocide is a bad thing regardless of who's on the receiving end.
Token993@reddit
Yeah I'm sure the European person knows all about Australian protests. I can tell you're taking this seriously by calling pro-israeli marches imaginary, a lot like your morals. I'm glad you decided pro-Israeli marches/protests don't happen though, I'll be sure to go tell the people involved
MaestroRozen@reddit
I know enough to see why government fresh out of an Islamist terror attack would take caution against use of a phrase associated with an Islamist terror group. It's called having common sense. But please, continue preaching about morals while chanting genocidal messages.
Ropetrick6@reddit
You are the only person here that's chanting genocidal messages.
News flash: it's not genocidal to support Palestinians right to exist. That is what it means when you say "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free."
Shady_bookworm51@reddit
Cool cool, lets start searching the hard drives of those that chant Am Yisrael Chai as i see it as a support of child abusers given how many of them hide in "Israel".
CluelessExxpat@reddit
Of course it does? Thankfully you are not a lawmaker or a judge.
MaestroRozen@reddit
No, it does not. Which is why people arrested are being released once they're interrogated and the government realizes they're just idiots and not extremists.
Jet90@reddit
Bondi had nothing to do with Palestine as it was an ISIS attack. ISIS never attacks Israel and doesn't believe in countries.
nottheone414@reddit
People love to shit on the USA for a huge amount of things (no time off, no medical care, no social safety nets, etc), but at least they don't ever have to worry about this kind of bollocks. Imagine getting arrested and criminally charged for wearing a shirt. Absolutely mental.
dJunka@reddit
In the US if your a student protester they just send a thug to beat you up in full view of the police and then the uni takes away your degree.
nottheone414@reddit
Aye. But you're not going to be charged with a crime for wearing a shirt with illegal phrases on it.
ShootmansNC@reddit
Eh, you might. They definitelly try.
https://freespeechproject.georgetown.edu/tracker-entries/federal-appeals-court-rules-fuck-the-police-t-shirt-worn-at-ohio-county-fair-is-protected-speech/
https://www.algemeiner.com/2025/01/09/free-palestine-activist-arizona-wearing-israel-kills-children-t-shirt-gets-arrested-refusing-leave-gym/
nottheone414@reddit
That last one makes sense as it's a private business. The First Amendment only applies to the government denying you free speech. Private businesses can deny you without issue, Reddit does it all the time.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
I’m sure they are working on that…
nottheone414@reddit
Aye. But you're not going to be charged with a crime for wearing a shirt with illegal phrases on it.
TraditionalGap1@reddit
Instead they get to worry about being put down on the streets or deported to random gulags
nottheone414@reddit
Only if you're an illegal.
WillListenToStories@reddit
Alex Pretti and Renee Good famously were not "illegal". They were American Citizens committing zero crimes and were executed by roaming federal officers.
nottheone414@reddit
Renee Good absolutely committed several crimes. She was told to exit her vehicle as she was being officially detained. The video is plain as day, officers approach her vehicle and clearly tell her to get out of the car. You may hate ICE but they're still federal officers and if they choose to detain you, you must comply (fight it in court later, and win, but you still must comply). What did she do? Instead of following instructions like an adult, she decided to flee the scene instead. That's a crime, and a stupid one. The agent was perhaps a bit trigger happy, but she was now a criminal evading detainment so there's a large latitude there. Totally legit shooting. Don't resist arrest/detainment, and don't flee from cops, it's literally the first rule of not getting shot by them.
The Alex Pretti shooting was completely unjustified, that was 100% incompetence by the agents involved and I hope they face consequences for it. However I wouldn't say he was executed.
Still, it boggles my mind that people fetishise these two people so much. It's half the amount of people killed at Kent State, and it's still a tiny amount killed in comparison to shitty local and state police. Remember Daniel Shaver, Breonna Taylor, Eric Garner, Elijah McCain, etc? How many people have shitty local and state police killed? ICE has killed two. Pretty solid record actually.
But don't act so high and mighty in Canada. Your police sucks too. I still remember the Ipperwash Crisis, the Oka Crisis, the January killings of Bronson Paul and Daryl Augustine, etc. Seems like you have a high chance of being executed in Canada too, especially if you're a First Nations member.
WillListenToStories@reddit
Most of what you wrote here has absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about. What are you going on about the Oka Crisis for? What about me decrying state violence makes you think I support state violence elsewhere? This is a genuinely insane attempt to pull me into the mud, I don't know why you tried it.
You were talking about "Illegal" as in a non-citizen right? And now you're changing the definition to talk about crimes? Okay.
Not exiting your vehicle, is not what we're talking about when we're talking about "Illegals" in the context of border-crossers, it's a pathetic wordgame to try to conflate the two like this. But regardless, not exiting your vehicle shouldn't be a death sentence for otherwise innocent people. ICE didn't just kill her, they did so in a way that put more people in danger, put themselves in danger, and ended up with someone dead, for seemingly no real reason.
As for Alex Pretti he did not commit a crime at the time of his execution, nor had he (as far as anyone knows) committed a crime worth being executed for, nor was he an "illegal".
I'm not going to engage with all the other bizarre assertions you've made, I've made my point, you'll froth and foam regardless.
nottheone414@reddit
There are consequences to not following lawful commands from law enforcement officers, that's my entire point, and that's why I bring up shit like the Oka Crisis, because somebody there also got shot for not following instructions from a law enforcement officer.
Obviously, the punishment for not following instructions shouldn't be death, but it's also acceptable for it to be death because you're choosing to fuck around with law enforcement, knowing that they're not the smartest people on earth, and they're trigger happy, have guns, and never face consequences for their actions.
Why on earth would anybody do that in 2026, having read all the articles out there about police brutality like George Floyd, Breona Taylor, Eric Garner, Oka Crisis, etc?
Renee Good's death was entirely her own fault. It's the equivalent of walking naked into a cannibal village and then complaining you got eaten. The whole world knows that ICE are trigger happy thugs, and instead of staying home to play with your kids, you decide it's better to go antagonise and fuck with them? And then ignore their commands and try to flee from arrest? That's basically a Darwin Award. Don't fuck with law enforcement, just don't do it. Stay out of their way, don't antagonise them, and obey their commands in any interaction. The world is a dangerous place, don't do dumb shit and take big risks. Stay home and play video games, live a long life.
And the OP to which I was responding said some stupid shit about gulags, to which said "only if you're an illegal." Which is correct. The USA only sends Japanese Americans and illegals to gulags.
WillListenToStories@reddit
I really just want to highlight this in what you wrote for anyone reading.
nottheone414@reddit
What's wrong with it?
WillListenToStories@reddit
The obvious insincerity in which you express a belief as you promptly and immediately show that you actually do not hold that belief.
nottheone414@reddit
It's not contradictory to hold an idealised de jure belief about how something should work, whilst also accepting the de facto situation of how it works in practice.
Ideally, police shouldn't kill people who flee and evade arrest, but the fact that it happens is something I accept and am cool with. I accept it because it's a simple causal situation: if someone makes a stupid decision in life, there are consequences, and sometimes they're lethal. Like drinking and driving. Or fucking around with police. These are both dumb things to do, and they open you up to consequences. Ideally those consequences shouldn't involve death, but I accept that they sometimes do and I'm fine with that, those are potential outcomes for rolling the dice in those situations, and sometimes you get really unlucky and roll a fumble.
There's the ideal world that we wish we lived in, and then there's the real world and how it actually works. I don't see the problem with wanting things to work a better way but accepting that they don't actually work that way at all, and being fine with that. What else am I supposed to do? Kill myself because the world isn't how I want it to be?
WillListenToStories@reddit
Yes, we get it, you think it's acceptable for police to murder people for no reason. Why are you reiterating?
nottheone414@reddit
Because you keep ignoring everything I write.
It's not for no reason.
You're being incredibly obtuse, you're acting like these cops came up to somebody, smiled at them, and then shot them in the head. That's NOT what happened.
Renee Good was lawfully detained and chose to commit a felony act by fleeing from police, in a very stupid way, by driving her car in the direction of police officers. That's a reason to escalate a situation and die as a result of your stupidity. It's the same thing as drinking a bottle of vodka and crashing into a tree and dying. In that case, you died because of a reason.
Stop removing agency and choice from these people. Actions have consequences. These people could've stayed home but they deliberately went out of their way to fuck with police officers and commit crimes, like felony evading arrest.
Police killing someone for no reason is what happened to Breona Taylor and Daniel Shaver. And that wasn't ICE.
WillListenToStories@reddit
Yessss queen, we get it. You think it's acceptable for police to murder people for no reason. We get it, you don't need to keep telling us, good lord.
nottheone414@reddit
I like telling you again though, since you keep listening to me.
TraditionalGap1@reddit
Christ, you're still going on with all this? You really can't back away from 'it's only illegals being put down or deported'? Just take the L and move on
nottheone414@reddit
It is only illegals being deported. In terms of getting shot, dumb idiots who choose to interfere with ICE are getting shot. It's not difficult.
TraditionalGap1@reddit
Oh look, turns out it's not 'only if you're an illegal' after all
nottheone414@reddit
That's incorrect, my original statement still stands.
TraditionalGap1@reddit
way to trumpet your ignorance for all the world to see
nottheone414@reddit
Ugh. Why even bother coming to Reddit if you just want to hear your opinions constantly parroted back to you? This sub isn't the echo chamber you're looking for.
TraditionalGap1@reddit
Ugh. Why even bother coming to Reddit if you just want to spew uninformed garbage 'opinions' like 'only if you're an illegal' without any pushback? This sub isn't the echo chamber you're looking for.
nottheone414@reddit
It's not pushback if you just write insults. That just makes you a loser with no manners. Pushback is when you engage in a coherent argument rooted in rhetoric and common courtesy.
TraditionalGap1@reddit
I'd consider it if I though 'rhetoric' would actually achieve anything here. Thankfully we have another user to demonstrate just how fruitless that would have been
nottheone414@reddit
Really? Who?
w8str3l@reddit
Tell me what historical atrocity I’m describing:
570rmy@reddit
This is democracy manifest.
CapitalLine@reddit
Something something, mustache man.
Level_Hour6480@reddit
Mario?!
Sloppykrab@reddit
It's a me!
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Luigi doesn’t get enough love…
Avesery777@reddit
How do you think Hitler would feel about his successor being Jewish?
Potatoe_Potahto@reddit
It's going to be pretty amazing if this goes to court. Some Queensland judge who is probably a gentile is going to have to decide whether or not this Jewish bloke is anti-Semitic.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Zionists used to accuse all Jewish critics of Israel of being “self-hating Jews” but that’s fallen out of favour.
feijoawhining@reddit
Two Jewish men were arrested at the same protest! Some of these recent cases in QLD will likely go to a much higher court eventually, and hopefully help overturn the law.
AutoModerator@reddit
The link you have provided contains keywords for topics associated with an active conflict, and has automatically been flaired accordingly. If the flair was not updated, the link submitter MUST do so. Due to submissions regarding active conflicts generating more contrasting discussion, comments will only be available to users who have set a subreddit user flair, and must strictly comply with subreddit rules. Posters who change the assigned post flair without permission will be temporarily banned. Commenters who violate Reddiquette and civility rules will be summarily banned.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.