North Macedonia, Croatia & Greece are the only Balkan countries the majority of Redditors see as Southern Europe. The rest of the Balkans is seen as Eastern Europe, the same region as Russia & Belarus. Thoughts?
Posted by Substratas@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 135 comments
OkoMushrooom@reddit
The benefits of living on greek beaches from June to September year after year are finally rubbing off.
TerranCitizen45@reddit
Now if they only returned the property of the people they drove off after 1949...
OkoMushrooom@reddit
I don’t actually care about that ancient history, I love modern day Greece and enjoy my time whenever I’m there immensely ☀️ you should too 🍹
TerranCitizen45@reddit
Except it's not ancient history, it's from about 80 years ago, some people are still alive.
OkoMushrooom@reddit
Yes that is ancient history.
TerranCitizen45@reddit
Ask the ones still alive if they think that.
OkoMushrooom@reddit
You’re assuming I care but I don’t really give a shit. I’m not about to change my entire emotional state, good will, develop contrarian feelings and beliefs or mess up the place I enjoy spending time in. So if you don’t like the beach stop throwing sand at beachgoers ☀️🍹
TerranCitizen45@reddit
I like the beach. I never said I don't like the beach. But it's good to see that Albanians were right about some Macedonians, seeing how some people will sell out for some sand :)
OkoMushrooom@reddit
Exactly some Albanians are really smart people, one was my friend and gave me a lot to think about.
TerranCitizen45@reddit
Ask him if he will sell out, and what they teach him at home.
OkoMushrooom@reddit
Put a lid on the “sell out” depression ahh 🥀 It’s not going to fly with me.
TerranCitizen45@reddit
So, go and ask some of the ones still alive who went through getting kicked out of their homes. Or bury your head in the sand in the beach, pretend nothing has happened.
OkoMushrooom@reddit
I never said nothing happened, I just don’t care about it. You whining in reddit comments about it instead of contacting the affected people and contacting greek courts and international organizations is whats the problem here. If you want to do something do something about it.
TerranCitizen45@reddit
Yeah, international organizations have really helped us...
https://news.un.org/en/story/2011/12/397222
The UN court found Greece guilty of breaching the 1995 Interim Agreement (the one where we agreed to use FYROM to enter international organizations).
The Court thus concluded that the Respondent had failed to comply with its obligation under Article 11, paragraph 1, of the Interim Accord by objecting to the Applicant’s admission to NATO at the Bucharest Summit. It also rejected the Respondent’s alternative arguments that its objection had been made in response to the Applicant’s breaches of the Interim Accord.
And then they said, yeah, Greece is guilty, but tough luck, we are not going to punish them for that. Some international law that is!
As to possible remedies for the violation by the Respondent of its obligation under Article 11, paragraph 1, of the Interim Accord, the Court found that a declaration that the Respondent had violated its obligation not to object to the Applicant’s admission to or membership in NATO was warranted and that such finding constituted appropriate satisfaction. The Court did not consider it necessary, however, to order the Respondent, as the Applicant requested, to refrain from any future conduct that violated its obligation under Article 11, paragraph 1, of the Interim Accord.
As I said, before your head in the sand, and pretend nothing happened.
Consistent-Sun-354@reddit
Just a western-centric view that has absolutely no ground in culture. Southern Europe is an artificial term reserved for “warm, catholic Europe” and has no basis in any traditional culture. Greece and Croatia being a part of that is a joke and even the cultural similarities between Spain and Italy are greatly exaggerated.
The fact that there is no Balkans category renders it useless. The Balkans is neither eastern nor southern Europe. It’s just the Balkans. And no amount of coping from Greeks, Albanians, Croats and Romanians will make their culture any less Balkan just because they want to be perceived as “western”. At least Croatia has some merit to it, but the others not in a million.
Substratas@reddit (OP)
Gurl no, I’ve never in my life seen an Albanian, like ever, deny their country or culture being Balkan - we’re literally the core of Balkanism, more so than any other Balkan country. I don’t even mind being called Eastern European, chile - no Albanian that I know does.
As for the rest of the comment, u absolutely tore.
Consistent-Sun-354@reddit
I’ve unfortunately come across a few who wanted to act as if Albania is Italy number 2 while Slavic neighbours were “barbarian” Eastern European but honestly very few times. Unfortunately it’s most popular among Greeks even though they, unlike Croatia are literally fully within the Balkan core. Tiny Corfu isn’t gonna change that.
Unfortunately these same people only hang out on askbalkans instead of their “supposed western Mediterranean brothers” just proving they relate a lot more to the people here than in Spain or Italy. Just double standards.
Substratas@reddit (OP)
Alright I understand now what u mean - and YES, many Albanians simp for Italy like crazy 😂 their obsession is in particular with Italy rather than categorization ”Southern Europe” in itself, but the larping is wild - one of my teachers in Sweden told me she once had an Albanian student who was lying that he was Italian. Luigi from Dukagjin basically 🤣😭💀
I also agree about Greece being 110% Balkan, down to Crete (I think Crete is even more Balkan than Northern Greece actually 😂) but I won’t comment any further on that because it’s not my country.
This!!! 😂😂😂
Do u remember a guy named John Delopoulos? He was literally 24/7 in this sub posting weird shit like ”I just woke up from my siesta, I ate so much pasta today, etc, etc…” while constantly calling us others ”Balkaners” 😭😭😭😭😭💀
Consistent-Sun-354@reddit
Of course I remember. I had very, very long back and forth arguments with him about half a year ago I believe. I assume he blocked afterwards because I never see his comments anymore. He has toned down since when he used to claim Albania was more similar to Jordan than Greece 💀 and other delusions. He’s probably the most extreme case of the western/Italian larping users on this sub.
freddo_expresso@reddit
Greece makes sense, also Croatia. But North Macedonia is a wild pull, quite unexpected.
Substratas@reddit (OP)
Have you ever been to North Macedonia?
https://i.redd.it/q4obubd8khwg1.gif
freddo_expresso@reddit
Girl it's called NORTH for a reason 💔
TerranCitizen45@reddit
Yeah, because the EU needs you more than us. Let's not forget we had a deal about the name since 1995 and you broke it. Buy since you were the "West's" favorite, no repercussions for you. A sad state of affairs...
Special-Transition77@reddit
I mean it's not that different to Northern and Central Greece vibe and culture wise. But I think Albania should definitely be Southern
freddo_expresso@reddit
Yes it is, the Aegean Sea changes everything 🏝
Consistent-Sun-354@reddit
In what way lol? Pelopennesian traditional culture is nearly identical to that of northern Greece, Albania and North Macedonia, especially when you compare it to Spain and Italy.
No-Carpenter4346@reddit
If you’re talking general “Balkan” culture sure but as someone from Argolis I would have to disagree. There is a lot of nuance and cultural differences that make the Peloponnese different from North Macedonia and Albania. We were less influenced by Slavic culture/migration and as a result have a distinct cultural identity. I’m not going to be one of those guys saying we’re true Greeks but we had more of a protected identity even during ottoman influence.
Consistent-Sun-354@reddit
Yeah, argolis was just Arvanitika speaking 200 years ago…. Regardless I don’t necessarily disagree with your statement. It’s not “identical” but since there are a lot of larpers on this sub I had to exaggerate a little. Of course there are regional differences and some that are unique to the Peloponnese or cultural traits that are stronger there than other Balkan regions. One example being music, which while very similar to Macedonian and Albanian folk music has its own unique melody. Another is traditional architecture which is more stone based and more square-formesque in comparison to rural houses in say Thessaly, North Macedonia or Albania that are more rectangle shape and usually include a stair up to the 2nd floor.
What I disagree with is how the area is less “Slavic” culturally considering the few Slavic cultural traits with the exception of language in south Slavic countries are usually found in the Peloponnese as well. Especially when considering the peninsula also had Slavic speakers till very late being recorded by the Venetias as the “schiavoni”.
Special-Transition77@reddit
Not really the case with Kostoria, Kozani, Larissa, Ioannina etc
geoponos@reddit
They probably think that North Macedonia is greek.
Strange_Status_7690@reddit
They themselves claimed so to be Greek. there is huge statue of greek people in Skopje.
Special-Transition77@reddit
And you claim to be the descendants of Turkic Khan asperuk
Strange_Status_7690@reddit
Georgi Delchev was Bulgarian, MK is artificial country
Familiar_Anywhere815@reddit
Culturally it's very adjacent to southern Europe. I live in Italy right now and feel quite at home (unfortunately?). And it certainly has way more in common with Greece than with, say, Russia.
However, Albania being "less southern" is absolutely crazy talk. It's through and through southern European.
Sad-n-Salty@reddit
Imo the balkans are their own thing, literally southeastern Europe having both southern and eastern elements
Except Greece, they’re just southern Europe
Special-Transition77@reddit
> Except Greece, they’re just southern Europe
Have been anywhere above Athens?
Old_Bowler_465@reddit
Greeks seems pretty eastern to me, just in an armenian way instead of a russian way
Strange_Status_7690@reddit
MK is classical Balkan is not Mediterranean. Mediterranean can be considered Albania and Montenegro because of the sea and climate.
sonte2@reddit
Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary as Eastern Europe but not Poland?
Substratas@reddit (OP)
It’s the stupidity of people correlating late political alignments & the current state of the economy with ”region”.
Silver_Ad8@reddit
Spend one day in Balkans and you will see that it has nothing to do with Eastern Europe expect old communist apartment blocks.
Northern Europeans are more similiar in their coldness than Balkans are to an average Russian or Ukranian, out of all of them Balkans is most similiar to mediterranean
Old_Bowler_465@reddit
Im curious if romania would be balkans or eastern europe then
Silver_Ad8@reddit
Mixed?
Substratas@reddit (OP)
I will have to disagree with this statement. Swedes might be closed-off, but they are extremely gentle and they usually smile. Their aura is the diametrical opposite of what Eastern European people emit.
Prestigious-Job-9825@reddit
It's very strange to see Albania classified as Eastern Euro, while Macedonia - which is to Albania's east and is generally less southern than Albania as a whole - is classified as Southern Europe.
My eyes hate the way the Balkans is handled on this map
jinawee@reddit
In the Simpsons, Albania is spying like it's an Eastern Bloc country. Macedonia sounds like Greek and sunny, so not Eastern. With the tourism boom, Albania should sound less Eastern. But Redditors are mostly Americans, which probably dont travel there for cheap beaches.
Substratas@reddit (OP)
It’s actually wild to think that just because the world discovers that u have potential for tourism, Mediterranean climate & olive oil culture, you aren’t Eastern European anymore. The ”association” concept is so bizarre, so fake.
https://i.redd.it/2nvkew32qlwg1.gif
BiscottiExcellent195@reddit
and croatia, which sit north of albania is placed in the south.
Special-Transition77@reddit
the difference between Macedonia and Albania is pretty marginal if you look at the pie-chart
Substratas@reddit (OP)
This is really disturbing.
7amdrei7@reddit
Maybe because it's very fucking early :))
To your point: decades of political programming (cold war) will do that.
Hopefully the young generation will not be as ignorant as their parents.
Substratas@reddit (OP)
Nope, that’s not what I meant.
The views catapulted instantly the 4th minute which made me check the insights bc I was like wtf. This thing is happening these last few days after Israel started getting mentioned more often in this sub. I remember some days ago, one of my comments in this sub about Israel got literally 4 thousand views in very few minutes and mass downvoted, with more than 90% of the viewers from USA. And the second comment of mine on that very post (without mentioning Israel) didn’t get much interaction and mostly Balkan viewers.
And mind you, I got 4 anonymous followers right after that first comment.
https://i.redd.it/355bzu4fhhwg1.gif
Substratas@reddit (OP)
Follow-up: Like a said about the initial upvote / downvote ratio. Here are the insights of the post now. The first wave of bots from USA mass downvoting, but now it’s organic Balkaner viewers growing.
This sub is 100% infested with bots operating from USA ~~for another country~~.
AntiKouk@reddit
I recently commented about Israel in this sub and this population order was my exact one too along with downvotes!
Now it's turned around to upvotes and more Balkan views. You're 100% right..
Substratas@reddit (OP)
It’s creepy but also very lame bc the bot VPN locations should be set accordingly so that the reach looks realistic for each sub 😂 Good lord, this is so embarrassing.
I wonder what can be done to prevent them from affecting this sub moving forward.
AntiKouk@reddit
The path is clear, BAN all users with IPs outside Serbia
Substratas@reddit (OP)
https://i.redd.it/07de2qwjolwg1.gif
LibertyChecked28@reddit
"Do you enjoy МОSАД? Well, now we added AI to it" 🤢
Prestigious-Job-9825@reddit
Bots and bot farms have been with us for many years sadly
Substratas@reddit (OP)
I’m deeply regretful for the lack of empathy I’ve shown by mocking people who used to warn me about this shit.
Natural_Scholar_1502@reddit
I thought that it was people in the sub setting their flair to Balkan countries and living in the United States.
Substratas@reddit (OP)
Nope, it’s the ~~real~~ VPN locations of the bots, otherwise the demographics wouldn’t have shifted so tremendously later on. This is how it looks now:
Mountain-Yard-928@reddit
The efforts that Israel gives to twist the public opinion are huge
Substratas@reddit (OP)
I’m appalled, ngl. I still don’t get why the bots are located in USA and not in Israel, though…
Mountain-Yard-928@reddit
Have you seen videos online of colonists or just random videos? Half of then the cameraman has some kind of Texan or New York accent.
Substratas@reddit (OP)
Oh, and by the way, every post I create on Reddit after that day, gets initially a wave of instant downvotes (like within the first 5-10 minutes) before getting more upvotes again. EVERY F*CKING POST OF MINE. And I’m not talking about this sub bc I know many people here dislike me - it suddenly happens in every sub I post.
I’ve made fun of people who were telling me about ”the bots” before because I thought it was a conspiracy theory, but now I’m realizing I might have been the one who was wrong…
Ok-Letter3775@reddit
Are you living in the US or connected to an US VPN by any chance?
Substratas@reddit (OP)
Nope. I live in Sweden & no VPN connected to the US.
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
VPNs lmao
Substratas@reddit (OP)
Only the initial ~~bots~~ users have VPN - the ones who view the post later don’t. 😉
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
That's not true. Plenty of regular users use VPN. Speaking from experience.
Substratas@reddit (OP)
I know they do, but most regular users in this sub don’t set their location to USA.
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
It's often one of the default locations for free VPNs, which don't give you many options.
Substratas@reddit (OP)
But that’s not the case here because the demographic of the viewers shifts dramatically from the first 1000 viewers (always coming with mass downvotes) to when it reaches 2000 viewers. It’s bots.
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
Yeah, that's suspicious, or maybe the people who lurk the most in this sub are the ones with VPNs, because they care most about their security. That's another interpretation.
Substratas@reddit (OP)
It never happened before my comment about Israel. It’s 100% bots.
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
Well, if it keeps happening to you, you are right.
Substratas@reddit (OP)
Not only to me…
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
Well, at least it's not permanent, damn
Alternative-Tie-4970@reddit
There's a lot of Countries where their "selected region" doesn't reach the majority of votes. Ithink ranked voting could've gone a long way.
Roufianos255@reddit
I mean, most people in the West just assume that Slavic means Eastern Europe. I don't think your average person has the nuance to know that e.g. Bulgaria is more similar to Greece than Russia, language aside.
I'm surprised about Albania though.
thanasis87kav@reddit
I can see any similarity of Greece with Bulgaria or any other Balkan country, more like southern Italy, western Turkey and Southern Spain, from personal experience, plus this is backed by social geography of (northern) Mediterranean countries. I cant speak of Croatia, but there's a huge gap between Greece and Croatia living experience 1940s-1990s.
albardha@reddit
Most people in the West assume Albania is Slavic. Since Slavic = Eastern Europe than means that Albania = Eastern Europe.
shqiptarski1444@reddit
Also Albanian accent in English sounds like Russian accent
Substratas@reddit (OP)
Many of those Westerners who assume Slav = Eastern Europe tend correlate Albania with Yugoslavia too bc they hear ”Albanians were killed / deported from Yugoslavia” so if they were in Yugoslavia they’re Slav, therefore Eastern Europe 😆
Some people correlate ~~the reputation of Albanians~~ gansters & drug trafficking with Eastern Europe too.
I’d say Albania is not significant enough for most people outside of the region to know much about it. 😁
Mucklord1453@reddit
switch North Macedonia and Albania around and put Croatia back in east Europe where they belong, and then its accurate.
Hefty_Jaguar4305@reddit
eastern thrace, the european part of turkey is also balkan. the three provinces edirne, tekirdag and kirklareli. Istanbul ok this is more a mix and wouldnt fit as Balkan.
adude995@reddit
If you go through the single classifications, it makes sense. Albania is quite 50/50 and made a southern majority just by a little.
Antique_Birthday6380@reddit
There is not 50/50, 70% of Albania is fully Mediterranean, most inland areas are also more Mediterranean than the inland areas of Croatia, let alone for North Macedonia.
int23_t@reddit
The fact that Turkey is elected not Europe by a stupid election system even though majority said it's part of Europe is really fitting for some reason, nice election rigging
Strange_Status_7690@reddit
Albania has 10% larger gap per capita than North Macedonia.
Substratas@reddit (OP)
And?
shortEverything_@reddit
Bulgarian haters be hating
Strange_Status_7690@reddit
While Bulgaria has larger gdp per capita than combined Serbia, N.Macedonia and Bosnia.
AlbanianCatholic@reddit
N.Macedonia and Montenegro being both considered more "Southern European" than Albania is silly imo.
Strange_Status_7690@reddit
North Macedonia and Skopje are less developed than Bulgaria or Romania by far which are European countries.
Albania is Mediterranean especially the South and really with the Ionian sea is way more southern than what North Macedonia looks so MK is neither South nor Mediterranean.
shortEverything_@reddit
Well for one the country is more south than Bulgaria and Romania
Macedonia? Eastern Europe? I assume you’re Bulgarian judging by the cope - just like the remind you literally were in the eastern bloc with the soviets along with Romania
Strange_Status_7690@reddit
All former Soviet block countries today are far more developed than the rest of the Balkan.
Soviet block countries actually had rail infrastructure, nuclear energy production, tourism and had changed the system after entering the eu.
Yugo countries such as MK, Bosna are the poorest in the region.
shortEverything_@reddit
Since when is being southern associated with economic prosperity? Have you even been to southern Italy? How about even Saranda which is as Mediterranean as it gets
fogleth@reddit
If you follow that line from Skopje directly west across the Adriatic Sea, you would land almost exactly in the city of Foggia. So if Italy is South Europe, Macedonia kinda is too.
shortEverything_@reddit
Yes Skopje is on the same latitude as Foggia and even northern Spain
The controversy is quite funny - I understand the Balkans share a lot but geography is a thing too.
Beautiful-Dish-6275@reddit
Croatia will achieve its dream of becoming nordic, one day.
North-Library4037@reddit
Thoughts - Redditors (we all know which country is most represented here) have no idea of European geography, politics, and culture.
DeInking@reddit
Well just looking at the map most Balkan countries are further south than Croatia so if Croatia is a southern European country, then so are the rest of the Balkans. Also, culturally we are closer to Greece than to Russia. This can be best seen in our food. I actually think that Croatia is rather Central European because of their cuisine rather than southern European.
CamelAmbitious7425@reddit
Croatia is culturally very diverse. North is more similiar to Central Europe and South to Southern Europe. The same is true for the Cuisine. Local Cuisine in Istria or Dalmatia isn't Central European at all. And since most Tourists go to the Coastline its not surprising that Croatia gets rather associated with Southern Europe.
Substratas@reddit (OP)
People build mental shortcuts based on visibility. Croatia has been promoted as a coastline destination for decades so many people naturally don’t associate it with Central Europe despite it being closely related to the other Central European countries.
HuckleberryUpbeat518@reddit
Anything described as "according to Reddit" is guaranteed to be bullshit. Reddit is intentionally designed to attract bots. Its the only platform that doesn't really do anything to penalize them.
Ok-Priority253@reddit
Have you been on other platforms recently?
HuckleberryUpbeat518@reddit
All platforms have bots. Reddit actively tries to attract them.
Ok-Priority253@reddit
I don't know, maybe it's because I avoid larger and propaganda-oriented subs but in my experience Reddit has significantly less bots than Twitter or Instagram. First of all, Reddit permabans you for fucking anything, the reason I am on this account is because I used a bad VPN for my actual one and it was almost immediately shadow banned. It also filters out every other comment if it sounds slightly too bot like and often makes your up/downvotes not count if it suspects your account, and it also hides downvoted posts and comments. It's far from the perfect platform but I think it's alright.
I mean compare it to Instagram for example where it actively pushes content people dislike, like every reel you watch the first comment is some variation of "Women/men/Muslims/Indians/Jews suck" with 3 likes and 20 comments, and the comment right below it has like 10k likes.
None of this of course negates the fact that people who use Reddit are just braindead, which is why the map looks like this.
HuckleberryUpbeat518@reddit
There are many subreddits that are run entirely by bots. All posts and comments are by boths and Reddit actively pushes them to people. They have tens of thousands of upvotes per post and subscribers that are entirely bots.
Every platform has some algorithm that aims to generate more traffic and interactions as that drives ad revenue. That is not what I am talking about. Unlike most other platforms, Reddit promotes having multiple accounts and makes creating accounts en mass via automation very easy. Also unlike Twitter, Facebook, Instagram and so one, Reddit is browsable without account and indexable by search engines, which increases the visibility and therefore the value or the bot generated content.
Reddit also promotes creating echo chambers with subreddits where you can have arbitrary mideration rules and ban people and delete posts and comments entirely based on political agenda. There is zero controls over moderation.
Ok-Priority253@reddit
Have you ever actually tried to do this? It is really not that easy.
Efficient_Resource15@reddit
Did they just put romania as more eastern european than the republic of moldova? The whole shtick of moldova is that they are more eastern and russified :))
Substratas@reddit (OP)
It’s actually put as more Central & Southern.
0ld_Snake@reddit
How can Croatia be south Europe but everything between it and Greece is not? Braindead Americans
CamelAmbitious7425@reddit
Probably because of the mediterranean costline. For Most people mediterranean=South Europe. I know Montenegro and Albania are also mediterranean but i guess most Americans never heard of them.
crivycouriac@reddit
Map screams bullshit
WolfGroundbreaking36@reddit
Split central between east and west
Hefty_Jaguar4305@reddit
I think that most people from English-speaking countries share this opinion about the definition of what the Balkans are.
In Europe, the Balkans were usually thought of as including Yugoslavia (especially Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro, North Macedonia, and Kosovo), as well as Albania and Bulgaria.
Melodic_Interview210@reddit
Where I live Central Europe is seen as coping concept and pretty much everything East of the Vienna/Berlin axis is called Eastern Europe and their denizens under the umbrella term "Guys from the East"
LifeMinimum5924@reddit
Racism
Natural_Scholar_1502@reddit
But it’s all European
Substratas@reddit (OP)
Why racism?
NNredE@reddit
Out of all similar maps, this one is the most ridiculous.
devoker35@reddit
Portugal is a Balkan country.
Fred_Neecheh@reddit
I dont care, I am happy to be Balkan.
Inevitable_Motor_685@reddit
portugal - western europe
spain - southern europe
Orthodox-Paradox@reddit
No surprise here. Reddit be Redditin.
Portugal however being westerm is a shock.
NoSync22@reddit
Poland Central Europe and Hungary Eastern Europe? Were the interviewed redditors from Wyoming?
Substratas@reddit (OP)
I feel like opinions shifted tremendously when Orban started deepthroating Russia.
Sensitive-Basis-6885@reddit
The person who said greece or turkey are central europe needs to be shot
Substratas@reddit (OP)
https://i.redd.it/5fykcmcbrhwg1.gif
carpuzz@reddit
yeah,, 3rd stone from the sun..
Antique_Birthday6380@reddit
I’m not surprised considering the age and the intelligence of an average redditor, which both are low lol.
P-l-Staker@reddit
Both apply. 🤷