What would you replace the AK-12 with? (Modernization kits?/ AK-200?/ Not an AK?)
Posted by StrangerOutrageous68@reddit | ForgottenWeapons | View on Reddit | 102 comments
Picture 2: KM-AK factory kit for AK-74s and 74M (or similar)
Picture 3: Sureshot chassis (or similar)
Picture 4: AK-200
Picture 5: AM-17 (any other gun)
Image sources: Kalashnikov Concern, Sureshot USA, RecoMonkey, Modern Firearms
BoyPregggers@reddit
Get my hands on the Armenian VAHAN and modernise it. 5.45, lever delayed blowback, looks pretty solid to me
Cheap-Variation-9270@reddit
delayed blowback is good system only if you have only one type of rounds, that means no tracers, no ap rounds, no different weighs of bullets, no incindiary rounds
BoyPregggers@reddit
How often would a russian soldier be firing those though?
Cheap-Variation-9270@reddit
In urban area, ap is often used.
StrangerOutrageous68@reddit (OP)
Not so solid
biddinge@reddit
I would just replace them with the original prototypes. 2017 probably and with a mlok handguard. That's about it. The ak12 prototype was extremely good. And the regular and modern ones are all so mediocre.
Cheap-Variation-9270@reddit
Previous prototypes had problems with reliability and cost like the 3 current Ak 12
J3RICHO_@reddit
An AR lol
Cheap-Variation-9270@reddit
AR is a 70-year-old platform that has a huge number of problems that are currently not solved the way they should be solved.
Prudent-Buy9302@reddit
Unironically I think it fits Russia's needs perfectly fine as is. Standard guys dont really need more, and the Secret squirrel guys have the budget for aftermarket parts to fit their needs
NoBowl9355@reddit
At this point I don’t Russia could ever replace the platform. It’s too ingrained in their training and culture. Switching to anything else would be Un-Russian.
ShermanTeaPotter@reddit
Feasible. The whole world could have already moved to laser rifles and the Russians would still use 7,62x54R, x39 and 5,45x39.
NoBowl9355@reddit
But they would definitely show up to Expos showing off a new wonder weapon that never goes into production.
ArmadilloLight@reddit
Zenitco always there to help
yourmomsbaux@reddit
I would replace every small arms factory in Russia with a crater.
Wolfinthesno@reddit
AK-8? 😂 Just being stupid but could be fun
Ka1serTheRoll@reddit
AM-17 or the AKV-521
Budwalt@reddit
Depends on what you want, AKs are genuinely better for conscript forces, but ARs are better for professional forces. Overall I'd say an AK that uses the rail you clip on would be pretty good, but the AR-15 can be done right in many ways
NoBowl9355@reddit
I will debate it being easier for conscripts. The AR platform is exceptionally easy for anyone to learn. Considering there’s less movement to be made while manipulating it. All of your controls are next to the pistol grip. The charging handle can be used without reaching over or under the rifle. The AK requires a bit of know how in order to run it efficiently. Whereas the AR is almost intuitive in its operation.
Budwalt@reddit
My point is more than the AK can handle a bit more abuse, less about is it easy to use and more about how easy it is to mess it up
TURBOWyMiaTaToR@reddit
I don't know man
I have seen a video about giving people without experience, a rifle to shoot without explaining manual of arms, most people had an issue with locking the mag on Ak, some had issues with the safety but everyone instinctualy known how to charging handle worked
On AR everyone figured how to put the mag in and some how put the gun on fire, but no one was even close to charging handle pretty much everyone molested the forward assist
This was made on group of maybe 10 people
OTL22@reddit
I don't really get this "it's better for conscripts" argument. Conscripts are going to be trained with the rifle they are going to use. In Finland, conscripts are taught to operate artillery, use complex radios and communication systems, drive tanks, commandeer landing craft, even flying airplanes!
If a rifle (be it an AR-15 or some other type) is "too complex" for a conscript to understand, that conscripts should probably not be in the military in the first place, or at the very least far away from anything that shoots.
Budwalt@reddit
I mean yeah, I think the conscript matters less on how easy it is to use (to an extent) and more of "how easy it is to mess up". Which is where the AK tends to win
KeeganY_SR-UVB76@reddit
An AR-15 but made by Kalashnikov.
Conserp@reddit
Still inherently flawed and unsuited for the real military.
OTL22@reddit
It's so flawed and unsuited for military use that basically every military that is adopting a new rifle these days, is adopting an AR-15.
Conserp@reddit
> It's so flawed and unsuited for military us
It is. You have no clue. If you had even a tiny little clue, you'd just nod along.
> basically every military that is adopting a new rifle these days, is adopting an AR-15
Every trash military with a corrupt acquisition system.
Meanwhile, US military has spent decades trying to get rid of the thing.
KeeganY_SR-UVB76@reddit
Hey, maybe more people would agree with you if you actually explained what the hell you’re talking about.
Conserp@reddit
Feel free to educate yourself.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ForgottenWeapons/comments/1sqz0h0/comment/ohgoxm0/
OTL22@reddit
A nice wall of text, most of which is irrelevant in the big picture. You can literally put up a similar technical breakdown of AKs drawbacks, and those too don't matter in the big picture, because AK is so unpopular and bad for modern manufacturing that no-one is choosing it in the year of 2026.
Like stuff about receiver breaking. Yeah, because AK receivers don't break? Stamped steel actually breaks more easily than drop forged aluminium. Stuff like this happens with every platform, if you mistreat it.
So, every military outside of Russia and Vietnam is trash and corrupted? Or maybe you are just wrong. The reason AR-15 is adopted by everyone, is because it's objectively the best overall weapons platform. Note, that it's not just bought from a select few companies, even when countries can literally set up their own production, they will still pick the AR-15 because it's the best option.
Conserp@reddit
> A nice wall of text, most of which is irrelevant in the big picture. You can literally put up a similar technical breakdown of AKs drawbacks
Facepalm. You can't, and you literally can't either, because you don't understand anything about firearms.
> AK is so unpopular
Facepalm.
> and bad for modern manufacturing
Facepalm.
> AK bolt carrier eating away magazine feed lips. Is that not an issue?
You have an excessively vivid imagination.
> you use steel to reinforce them. But that forces you to use steel there where it should not be needed
Triple facepalm. Any magazine absolutely needs steel-reinforced lips to be reliable and durable. AR-15 magazines fail because they haven't, and that's due to dimensional flaw. Your understanding of this is toddler-level.
> STANAG-mags are used by EVERYBODY.
Which cases huge migraines for that "EVERYBODY" who uses them. Which is why many completely dumped them. This is why it wasn't even adopted as a proper STANAG standard.
> The reason AR-15 is adopted by everyone
A handful of corrupt shit-tier militaries aren't "everyone".
You are incapable of having an adult conversation and clearly coping.
OTL22@reddit
You are incapable of naming countries that are not adopting the AR-15.
KeeganY_SR-UVB76@reddit
Yeah, the Russians would find some way to fuck it up.
Conserp@reddit
What you said is that you don't have a slightest clue how firearms work on the engineering level, and know very little even on the user level.
KeeganY_SR-UVB76@reddit
If you say so. I’ve only assembled about a half-dozen of them.
Conserp@reddit
Assembling them is not understanding them, especially in your case.
Simon-Templar97@reddit
An M4.
I've spent more on AKs and their over priced accessories than most and I love them but they're an outdated platform and Russia only keeps them around because A. They can't afford to replace 5.45 and the 74s in stock and B. National pride around Kalashnikovs.
Conserp@reddit
Is this just a braindead and utterly ignorant take, or low-effort trolling?
M4 is deeply flawed shit that even US military have dreamt of getting rid of for decades.
Simon-Templar97@reddit
I don't mean a literal M4A1 from Colt or FN but something with AR-15 DNA that is more modular.
What exactly is deeply flawed about the M4?
Conserp@reddit
> something with AR-15 DNA that is more modular
Modularity isn't something "AR-15 special". SOPMOD and, well, videogames merely popularized it. Something like AK isn't inherently unmodular - e.g. AKV-521
> What exactly is deeply flawed about the M4?
Design flaws common among AR-15/18 and most of their derivatives:
- tight, unstreamlined cyclogram, with notably short BCG overtravel. Even minor deviation in conditions, ammo quality and state of the weapon can cause some kind of failure.
- no primary extraction. Major common cause of failure. It was perfectly understood back in the 19th century, yet AR designers still failed to implement it.
- pre-engagement. Common сause of failure in adverse conditions. Among AR derivatives, only AUG has a crutch fix for that. Garand fixed "RSC M1917", Stoner "unfixed" it.
- primitive bolt-action style BCG/magazine interface. It does not take into account mag dynamics and necessity to lift rounds into the bolt path in split-second. Major cause of failure to feed exacerbated by bad magazines and very short overtravel mentioned earlier.
- plunger ejector. No competent and self-respecting gun designer would ever put this crap into a military rifle.
- inherently weak bolt design that routinely fails in two different ways. Seven locking lugs make zero sense mechanically and structurally, a design indefensible from good military gun engineering practices standpoint. Every tiny lug is a weak point, and most bolts (milspec included) have square lugs with stress points in every corner. There is also a big hole drilled through the bolt - and it is stressed, with bolt cam pin as a separate piece. This is why there is a whole genre of photography called "pics of AR bolts broken into pieces". *Some companies make custom AR bolts with rounded lugs that at least exclude corner stress points. Australians made a 3-lug bolt which is a way more sound design.
- bolt cam pin that is offset pretty far back. This causes unwanted torque in the bolt. Contributes to reliability issues.
- loose and wobbly Schmeisser magazine well, which was a major cause of issues even in MP38 already, exacerbated by design dimensions meant for disposable aluminum magazines. It does not secure the magazine snugly, as it inherently requires clearances, and those clearances still can be gunked up preventing mag insertion. Same with damaged well or damaged mag. Inserting on closed bolt requires force, and there are infamous over-insertion and wrong insertion issues. Disposable mag debacle caused perpetual mag durability issues that remain unresolved. In general, AR magazines are the major pain felt by every military user.
Now, some more M4-specific:
- Aluminum receiver breaks, literally.
- buffer that has to be precisely tuned for the rifle and ammo, and has to be in good condition? In a military firearm? Seriously?
- linear main spring arrangement may be nice for a competition rifle, acceptable for a marksman rifle, very questionable in a general purpose military rifle.
- multiple non-captive small parts. Lack of proper gunk accumulation and friction management. E.g. parts like firing pin are unfluted. Lots of obstruction potential. Common cause of failure.
- design reliance on brass cased ammo, which is heavier, much more expensive, and prone to shortages in a war, as brass is in limited supply.
- I won't say anything bad about DI gas system, but this one does fail in water, catastrophically.
- M4 has no proper alleviation of multiple inherent short barrel issues. It is loud, flashy and fast-firing.
These are off the top of my head, not all of them. These are the important ones.
Overall, "1,691 rounds between failure" is atrocious, and M4 demonstrated even worse than that in adverse conditions. It fails to work completely in some of them, fails catastrophically in some others.
Simon-Templar97@reddit
You've presented a lot of points that absolutely can be be improved in "milspec" AR-15s and some others I see no issue with such as magazines, aluminum receivers, and plunger ejectors, etc.
I'm curious as to what currently existing rifle you would say would be the best replacement for AR-15/18 derivatives.
Conserp@reddit
> You've presented a lot of points that absolutely can be be improved in "milspec" AR-15s
I don't have enough hands to facepalm this properly. You need medical help
Simon-Templar97@reddit
I'm trying to have a conversation and see your point of view and potentially change my opinions but you just act like a bitchy cocksucker man.
Conserp@reddit
You are spewing ignorant nonsense because you are salty.
Piss off, butthurt toddler
FTD_Brat@reddit
The Russians do make 5.45 style ARs that also take AK74 magazines.
https://modernfirearms.net/en/civilian-rifles/russia-civilian-rifles/cgnl-nl-545-2/
DweebInFlames@reddit
The current bane of my existence, why can't Nikita have added something cool like the Kord rifles instead, everyone and their mother runs around with these things now
FTD_Brat@reddit
To be fair, I’m one of the weirdos in the U.S. that would also buy a real one given the opportunity.
Along with the 100 series they’re some of my favorites for Tarkov
Jigglepirate@reddit
AKs are a conscript friendly design. Easier to teach Manual of arms, and much less necessary to keep clean.
Professional military, AR all the way.
Sensitive_Buffalo289@reddit
Am-17
ManufacturerLost7686@reddit
I my opinion, the AK-63MF is peak AK and this is the hill i die on.
Raven_Drakeaurd@reddit
I think the AK platform and many derivatives are an evolutionary dead-end and will always be subpar for modern combat. As sad as it is, I'd equip my troops with generic AR-15s before anything else.
If I was running a PMC of some sort and could allow my troops to have choices over their weapons, I could see myself wanting to keep an AK type rifle in inventory for operators already trained on that style of rifle. In which case, it'd be the AK-101 and AK-102.
StrangerOutrageous68@reddit (OP)
Well someone who considers the AK platform sub-par or outdated for modern combat should seriously look at what modern combat looks like.
schockergd@reddit
Would LOVE to know the breakdown of <200m engagements vs 201m+ engagements in ukraine.
If anything I'd imagine that 200m is FINE for 90% of cases, then something like a DMR (308/7.62x54r) is needed, with solid optics & accuracy for the remaining 10%.
I'd also imagine that intermediate penetration characteristics also aren't a huge concern either, in the broad scheme of things.
NoBowl9355@reddit
Yeah but being able to manipulate a rifle ambidextrously is pretty important in trench warfare. Something that the AK is not designed for. It’s a lot easier to manipulate the AR platform in several ways than the AK.
StrangerOutrageous68@reddit (OP)
The AK-12, Galil and Beryl has an ambi safety just from the top of my head
NoBowl9355@reddit
Just because it’s being used in an area where the amount of AK’s outnumber any other design doesn’t mean it’s not subpar, outdated platform. It’s obvious that it has reached its evolutionary dead end. The AR is a very easy to learn, easy to manipulate and a more modular platform. All that being said. It has been an important technical milestone in firearms production and design. Inspiring and contributing to several other design.
taucco@reddit
Ak74 with a stable rail
CombatRedRover@reddit
I mean, yeah, but how much do you need to change the architecture of the AK for the top dust cover to either be stable or to not work that way and it still be an AK?
Or accept the jank "rail attached to the trunion instead of the dust cover", which maybe keeps zero?
StrangerOutrageous68@reddit (OP)
There are well-designed dust cover rails. The AK-200 is one for sure.
ApleStone@reddit
Also don’t the iron sights on RK62/Galil style dust covers hold zero pretty well. It would probably be possible to make a dust cover of similar style with a rail on it.
StrangerOutrageous68@reddit (OP)
Galil ACE. Lots of pressure is not enough in my opinion.
Conserp@reddit
AKV-521 is still an AK
One might say it is basically the "OG AK", since AK-46 had upper-lower architecture.
lettelsnek@reddit
a properly built current gen AK-12 is probably the ideal service rifle for a country that places a lower priority on infantry small arms handling
that or a bren 2
Conserp@reddit
Bren 2 is flawed trash though.
Geopoliticalidiot@reddit
So, are we working with the Current Russian defense procurement procedures or a hypothetical where we have ideal conditions, because the most realistic thing they can do rn is just modernize their current AK-74, AK-74ms with kits, because they currently cant spend much on designing new stuff that would be available for mass deployment, but if they were in ideal conditions a new development or taking the AK-12 program and fixing it up would be better.
NoBowl9355@reddit
I think having an AK platform where the bolt could be manipulated ambidextrously would without wrapping your support arm under or over the rifle would be a huge upgrade. Also a mag release that is easily manipulated with the shooting hand without breaking your grip would be amazing.
Conserp@reddit
Curiously, there is a specific reason why AK bolt handle is on the right side.
Early Kalashnikov designs had left-side handle, that was eliminated because such handle moves in front of the shooter's left eye, which interferes with two-eyes-open shooting.
ShermanTeaPotter@reddit
Wouldn’t it just work to give an AK an upper/lower setup like on ARs? That would allow to take the bolt out from the underside, so no need for a removable top cover. Safety, repeating handle and ergonomics would largely stay the same, but it eliminates the issue of non-holding zero as well as a milled rail directly to the upper simply can’t wobble.
McChicken_lightmayo@reddit
Ak-100 was already peak. It’s all downhill from there as far as dollar-to-value.
Driver2900@reddit
TKB-022P deep modernization program
john801121@reddit
*heavy breathing
Petrus_Rock@reddit
Depends on why you want to replace it.
soulknifes@reddit
galil ace
DunkleosteusWH96@reddit
Neiet, AK12 is good!
StrangerOutrageous68@reddit (OP)
In some aspects it is better than a modernized AK or a 200 series.
DunkleosteusWH96@reddit
I was kinda joking with that post, I mean we all know how stubborn Russians are with ditching a weapon system, I mean look how long it took to move on from the Mosin
estolad@reddit
there's something to be said for being willing to say something's good enough and sticking with it
RetardKnight@reddit
They moved on from the Mosin?
Nesayas1234@reddit
I think the most modern version of the AK-12 is almost there tbh
CyberSoldat21@reddit
Replace it with an AR or AM-17
schockergd@reddit
I'm out of touch - What's the issue with the AK12 (And/or the AK15?)
From what I knew they're in use in Russia & the ukraine war, and have performed DECENTLY.
Popular_Mushroom_349@reddit
Picture #2
JaphetSkie@reddit
I quite like the AM-17's design.
Modern_Doshin@reddit
An AK100 series. It was fine how it was!
HELLFISH-762@reddit
echoing, just an AR by Kalashnikov
justaheatattack@reddit
whoever gives me the biggest kickback.
AngryAccountant31@reddit
Either a RK 52 or a Bren 2.
QingLongBao@reddit
Smith and Wesson M&P15R
AKMike99@reddit
Probably some sort of AR-18 derivative
Eisenbahn-de-order@reddit
Need more context. Who am I?
Russia? Probably AK 200 however dressed up since I have a ready made assembly line.
Anyone else? Whatever's native and in production. If not then ar's since they are so prevalent.
reznov-where-are-you@reddit
nyet AK-74M is fine
JonYaya@reddit
An AR….
drummagqbblsw@reddit
I feel like most issues with AK-12 are essentially caused by terrible quality control due to Russian's declining manufacturing capability. So no I don't think I would recommend replacing AK-12 since the next rifle will probably be even worse and AK-12 is very likely the best they can do. If I'm not considering that, then I'll pick AM-17
CannonFodder58@reddit
Robinson XCR in 5.45, possibly with a special lower that takes AK magazines.
_OngoGablogian@reddit
RA-15. seems like a pretty legit rifle
Artistic_Regard_QED@reddit
AK-15
Dorntech@reddit
AK-19 or AK-101
RacerXrated@reddit
An AR.
fuzedhostage@reddit
AR is peak firearm and nothing will beat it for a while
Cheap-Variation-9270@reddit
AKV
Ill_Interest_2346@reddit
Call serbia and see if you can get M70s.
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