Any stats on the effectiveness of less lethal kinetic rounds?
Posted by Krasny_Majak@reddit | Firearms | View on Reddit | 19 comments
There seems to be data on how often tasers and pepper spray manage to successfully stop an attacker, although different sources name different numbers.
I wasn't able to find such data on less lethal impact/kinetic rounds, be it about CO2 paintball markers or shotguns loaded with bean bags. I (and probs many other people) wouldn't want to depend on a weapon that hasn't been proven to be effective, and it seems like the arguments you see online in favor of the effectiveness of less lethal guns are mostly theoretical.
You can find footage of law enforcement using them, but those are anecdotes.
Does anyone have any statistical data on the matter? If so, could you share it?
Mountain_Man_88@reddit
The only legitimate civilian defensive use of non-lethal rounds is hazing dangerous animals away from a safe location. Less lethal rounds can still cause death or great bodily harm, so from a legal perspective a civilian shooting someone with less lethal ammo may be considered effectively the same as shooting them with lethal ammo.
Law enforcement officers get a decent amount of training on less lethal platforms. OC, TASERs, beanbag rounds, and pepper ball rounds depending on what they're issued. You won't get that training. Notably, that training generally tells you to have a partner providing lethal cover if you're trying to deploy less lethal. That should tell you enough about how much confidence they have in less lethal. No less lethal platform is perfect. Sometimes the human response to a failed less lethal deployment is to charge.
You shouldn't be using less lethal unless you're facing a lethal threat, but if you're facing a lethal threat you want to be able to stop it with more certainty than less lethal will provide.
Krasny_Majak@reddit (OP)
Your legal advice doesn't mention any specific jurisdiction, but I can assure you that what you wrote doesn't apply to the entire world.
Shooting less lethal guns is hardly different from shooting lethal ones. I know this because I have done both.
Lethal guns aren't legal to use or own for everyone in any part of the world, so less lethals may be what people need to stick to.
Mountain_Man_88@reddit
The legal elements are true for the United States, though many countries that restrict firearms will also restrict less lethal firearms because less lethal firearms firearms. I don't think there are any countries that ban firearms but sell beanbag shotguns to anyone who wants them as a beanbag shotgun is a shotgun. Most pepperball guns are very similar to paintball guns, they may operate at different pressures/velocities.
Krasny_Majak@reddit (OP)
Paintball markers are alot less regulated in most (if not all) of the world. Even in the US they do not require a license and can be brought to places where conventional firearms are banned.
HybridP365@reddit
It might shock you to know that some areas actually do require licenses for paintball guns. New York, for example. And their use is straight up banned outside of designated fields.
Krasny_Majak@reddit (OP)
That is indeed a shock, especially considering that many markers are too weak to really hurt anyone.
TacTurtle@reddit
Your paintball markers haven't been turned up very much have they?
If you don't play commercial field limits, you can tune markers up to 350+fps and leave bruises.
Mountain_Man_88@reddit
Paintball markers aren't great for self defense any yet in most places that ban weapons for self defense they would likely be viewed unfavorably if used for self defense, especially if modified in any way to increase the power or to make the projectiles more damaging.
Better tried by twelve than carried by six and all that, but in a non-permissive environment where you need to have a weapon and can't realistically have a gun, if you have prosecution concerns you are often best off with something that could be articulated as an improvised weapon. A baseball bat, a cricket bat, a golf club, a cane, a hammer, a pen. If you have a hammer in the trunk of your car, be sure to also have a some nails and a tape measure so you can say that you're not just carrying it as a weapon.
Krasny_Majak@reddit (OP)
You may be right about impact weapons being a better alternative, although it does not seem to be a proven fact. I was asking for statistical data specifically so that I could figure out how effective those less lethal guns are and wether they are worth it.
Diligent-Parfait-236@reddit
In several countries, mostly Eastern Europe, they have "traumatic pistols" which are primarily just blank guns but some also have a rubber projectile.
I've never seen any ballistics for these, though they seem a far cry from a less lethal threat stopper.
Krasny_Majak@reddit (OP)
What do you mean by "seen ballistics"? I know quite a bit about them, so you can ask me if you have quetions.
Diligent-Parfait-236@reddit
Mass, velocity, velocity loss over time/distance.
Krasny_Majak@reddit (OP)
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Low-Landscape-4609@reddit
That is good information. I spent my career as a law enforcement training instructor and you're right. Officers at our local police academy go through one week of training before they are certified on OC spray. Most civilians get it off the shelf and never receive any training on how it works, what makes it work and why it's sometimes doesn't work.
Your typical paper ball course or less lethal shotgun munition course is usually a minimum of a week-long.
Diligent-Parfait-236@reddit
Can confirm, had no training, bought capsaicin spray, sprayed it on my food like an idiot. It tasted worse than Frank's.
Quadrenaro@reddit
Hol up fam. We are gonna need some more elaboration on this.
Diligent-Parfait-236@reddit
Pepper spray makes a very poor hot sauce substitute, if you want tasting notes I don't remember nor am I a tear gas sommelier.
Krasny_Majak@reddit (OP)
What kind of pepper spray training takes up a whole week? Can you show us your training program?
Low-Landscape-4609@reddit
Well your first day is a classroom portion. You learn about chemical munitions, how different ones work, while they work and why they may not work. Depending on the course, may not just cover oc. Might also cover tear gas as well.
Then you get cans of training OC spray that are basically filled with water. You learn how to use them on each other so you can effectively spray the facial area and you learn how to draw it from your duty belt.
After that you take a written examination.
The final thing is an obstacle course that you have to run after being sprayed. You have to complete several tasks at stations to show that you can fight through the effects of the spray in the event that you spray yourself.
First, you had to be able to draw your gun, focus on a Target and give appropriate commands for compliance. After that, you had to walk up and handcuff the suspect.
I worked in the state of Kentucky and in kentucky, everything is completed in 40-hour blocks for the most part. This means that even if it doesn't have to be a week, they're going to make a week of training out of it. Not necessarily a bad thing.
To answer your question on the training program, you can find Sabres PowerPoint that they use at police department. I've seen it shared on Google before. You can download it. A lot of it's going to be information that is common sense but there's some little nuggets of information in there that you may find interesting.