Data is just back in his position and rank after basically saying he would help "Destroy all Humans"?
Posted by MetalSufficient9522@reddit | TNG | View on Reddit | 55 comments
In Descent/Descent Part II, Data joins Lore and basically tells the crew he is going to help destroy all human life.
Of course, this is because of the emotion chip or something, but still. He is just back on the bridge with his rank after this? I would think he would be deactivated at minimum, if not destroyed. Certainly not just put back in his position with Starfleet.
itsshiftymcgoo@reddit
Lore was using his emotion chip to filter "negative emotions" to Data. He also disabled Data's ethical program. He couldn't be held responsible.
CosmicQuantum42@reddit
Putting aside the moral responsibility angle, I think the right question is more “this happened, could it happen again?”.
Data is incredibly powerful and dangerous, he’s both physically much stronger and a step function smarter than the rest of the crew including Worf and Picard. He just showed that he can go rogue due to influences like that. Do you want him sitting at a console next to you in the next encounter with Borg/cyber hackers/ghosts/who knows.
Also no one knows the precise influences that will make him go off the deep end or get amnesia or behave unpredictably. True of humans too (to a lesser extent) but at least they can be stopped.
I realize the show has to be what it is so no one asks too many questions, but I think if Star Trek was real life you have to look askance at whether allowing data to serve on a starship is a good idea.
At minimum the captain needs invasive control over him, probably in ways other episodes might argue is a violation of his human rights. Maybe some kind of kill switch safeword or something.
Captain_of_Gravyboat@reddit
You could have that same scenario for pretty much all of the command crew for things they did while they were not in control. Giving Picard 'invasive control' or a 'kill switch' over Data is the most unworthy ST comment i've heard in a long while. Go back and watch measure of a man until it sinks in.
CountVanillula@reddit
Or you can watch it again with the understanding that the reason it’s a good episode is because it poses a legitimate question. “Kill switch” is probably a little harsh, but the underlying point is that there are controls in place to mitigate the dangers that could be caused by everyone on board. Security forces can overpower crewmen when necessary, the computer can lock out access to vital parts of the ship - they could even vent atmosphere to incapacitate most beings. But Data is immune to all of those countermeasures - he’s stronger than worf, smarter than the computer, doesn’t breathe, and he’s fully functional. And he’s not immune to external influences. So why is it unreasonable to implement some kind of way to keep the android on a leash, when everyone else is bound by the system in some way?
Again, not saying “kill switch” is the answer, but it’s a fair question.
MetalSufficient9522@reddit (OP)
I guess we missed the court martial. :)
itsshiftymcgoo@reddit
Geordi damn near ignited a war between the Federation and the Klingon empire and all he got was mandatory counselling.
titlecharacter@reddit
If Starfleet kicked out every officer who was temporarily brainwashed by a telepath, pirate with a brainwave machine, pheremone-emitting semi-sentient creature, rogue Vulcan mind-melder, reality-distorting godlike asshole, etc, they'd be out of crew in no time.
Remote-Pie-3152@reddit
What do you mean “kicked out”? OP was flat out calling for Data to be summarily executed lmao
tricky_monster@reddit
Kicked out of a cannon. And into the sun.
DJTilapia@reddit
So that's why they also keep building automated ships, though they inevitably turn out evil!
jumbotron_deluxe@reddit
Scotty was allowed to openly roam the enterprise without so much of a “hey man, you good?” from Troi. Picard was given command of Enterprise like right after leaving the collective. Riker was tortured in psychological prison camp for months and just went right back to being XO like it wasn’t a thing. They don’t seem to do much debriefing around there.
dantheplanman1986@reddit
LaForge got mind raped and brainwashed and went back to work. And over on DS9, O'Brien kept having horrific things happen to him and it was just another day at the office.
Key-Criticism4791@reddit
The last time I got mind raped my job demoted me and cut my salary in half; and I didn't even do anything to anyone else.
QualifiedApathetic@reddit
Well, you can't expect them to leave an excuse to cut your salary on the table.
froot_loop_dingus_@reddit
The only time any of that was ever addressed was Admiral Nechayev asking Picard if he had sympathies for the Borg, and it was presented as ‘she’s an asshole for asking this’
Prudent_Leave_2171@reddit
Admiral Satie also brought it up in “Drumhead”, just before Picard retorted with one of his most memorable speeches (using her father’s words). His state of mind as a result was also addressed during “I, Borg”, the movie “First Contact”, and of course immediately afterwards in “Family”.
Cookie_Kiki@reddit
She was an asshole for asking that
Mediocre_Daikon6935@reddit
Sisko wasn’t very damned amused by picard’s treason or how it was handled.
BK_0000@reddit
Troi tried.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYfon5MAiEU
DJTilapia@reddit
TBF, there was a deleted scene where Tori tried to talk to Scotty, but it was cut for time. It does seem like she is dropping the ball onscreen, but perhaps things would be even worse if she, and other counselors, weren't desperately shoring up everyone's psyches better episodes?
Supervisor-194@reddit
There are several examples of the "turns evil via outside influence" trope scattered across the franchise — the Doctor in Voyager for instance. Since most of these occur in an "episode of the week" format, the reset is kind of inevitable.
It's just part of the franchise's DNA I guess.
KayBeeToys@reddit
Indeed—the fact that there was an episode where Picard deals with his PTSD was generous character development at the time. Ron Moore’s BSG was revolutionary for having long arcs. TNG pushed the boundaries of the day—what other series had three parters?—but it never transcended them.
Comfortable_Poem_841@reddit
Well, three years before Doctor Who had a season long arc running alongside three standalone stories.
rad2themax@reddit
Doctor Who had been serialized since the beginning though. It wasn't a show designed for syndication like Star Trek TNG.
MolybdenumBlu@reddit
If you want long running story arcs in British television, the genre of soap operas is where it is at. If you want quality, then it isn't where it is at at all, but that is another issue.
Amazing-Gazelle-7735@reddit
As opposed to Babylon 5, which ran a decade earlier?
OhNoIBoffedIt@reddit
RIGHT?! BSG was a good show, it was hardly revolutionary.
Supervisor-194@reddit
Absolutely; I always include "Family" as an unofficial part three to the trilogy when watching "Best Of Both Worlds". It works beautifully as an "act 3".
SleepyMonkey7@reddit
Thought that episode was so boring as a kid but really learned to appreciate how amazing it was as an adult.
FeebleCursed@reddit
They would have to treat Data the same way they would treat any human (or other biological) Starfleet member who had their judgement seriously impaired by influences outside of their control.
It's a similar situation to the brainwashing of Geordi La Forge and his subsequent assassination attempt. No one is going to treat Geordi as if he temporarily turned would-be assassin on his own accord. So once the source of the influence is discovered and removed, Geordi is no longer held accountable for those actions. As per the findings in Measure of a Man, Data would have to be given the same treatment.
MrDeekhaed@reddit
I’m surprised I had to go this far down to see this but even still I’m not sure you are stressing the point I care about.
You said data is sentient and not property but, and I could be wrong, but it seemed like you were pointing out if they let other humans go back to work they have to let data and that’s true
But op talked about shutting him down or destroying him and this is what stood out for me. It’s not about being fair and letting him go back to work it’s about him being a lifeform and you can’t just kill him like he is just a machine. The idea he should be punished or not is different than thinking anyone had the right to shut him down or destroy him
FeebleCursed@reddit
I was attempting to point out that other humans went back to work instead of facing sanctions of any kind. Demotion, or death, being part of the consequences they were not expected to face. I didn't explicitly reference OPs question about deactivation or destruction, but did intend that to be implied.
MrDeekhaed@reddit
When I wrote “it’s about him being a lifeform” I didn’t mean the whole discussion and wasn’t harping on your response. You were correct in everything you wrote.
I meant that the additional point I wanted to stress was what “it’s about”
I just meant to expand on your post not imply there was anything wrong with it
FeebleCursed@reddit
Just for clarification: I didn't read your response as "harping." I read it as good-faith added commentary.
MrDeekhaed@reddit
Ok cool=)
RadVarken@reddit
The greater concern is that the biologicals aren't being removed from authority either. You don't take someone out of the POW camp and send them back to work without a cool down period, which could last years.
lexxstrum@reddit
Ok, let's look at "The Game", S5Ep6: Riker brings mind altering alien tech on board the Enterprise, and the entire crew becomes willing agents of an alien power. They assault fellow officers, plan to spread the game to other starfleet ships and facilities; they essentially become loyal to these aliens.
Should the entire Bridge crew of the Enterprise be removed and imprisoned or executed? Just like Data, they were outwardly controlled by alien tech, and were working against the Federation.
Or, in a world where someone can use a video game to brainwash you, or put a bug in you to control/take you over, or assimilate you into their Collective, or possess you, or use your emotional software to control you, maybe Starfleet is more forgiving about the situation.
ciarogeile@reddit
Starfleet officers can do a little treason, as a treat
arctic-aqua@reddit
Data was a huge security risk. He would go evil every year or so.
Cautious-Tailor97@reddit
See?
We let Discovery in.
We never let Descent Part I and Decent Part II in.
We have standards.
Analogsilver@reddit
There are episodes where one character or another gets taken over by some entity. Pretty much every one of them would have been remove from active duty.
colphoenix@reddit
After all was done, back in the Enterprise, he auto installed a new subroutine to prevent anyone but the high rank officers of the enterprise to tamper with his system
Malnurtured_Snay@reddit
"I would think he would be deactivated at minimum, if not destroyed. Certainly not just put back in his position with Starfleet."
I mean, this is hardly the first time Data has been ... shall we say ... "temporarily out of his programming." For instance, in Brothers.
I do think it's worth Starfleet asking if Data can be trusted, given the apparent relative ease with which his programming can be hijacked (although since in both cases it was related to Noonien Singh, now dead, and Lore, now disabled after Descent) perhaps they consider the issue settled.
I do think that deactivating Data is a no-go (did you forget Measure of a Man?), destroying him certainly so; OTOH, if Data's considered alive, shouldn't Lore be considered alive? Is dismantling/deactivating him as they did murder? I dunno.
geobibliophile@reddit
Even if Data were court martialed and discharged from service, you can be sure he would be destroyed! Starfleet and the Daystrom Institute would intervene to study Data, which may or may not lead to his destruction.
Besides, Starfleet doesn’t really do death penalty on purpose.
yeahalrightgoon@reddit
Yeah realistically he'd lose his position and rank.
But do we really want that to happen?
fyrysmb@reddit
Picard lived an entire other life in “The Inner Light” and woke up and went right back on duty.
Willing-Departure115@reddit
Humanity eliminated HR departments after their role in exacerbating World War 3, and brought this influence into Starfleet.
Resident_Football_76@reddit
Sisko bio-nukes a planet and threatens to do it with others as well and doesn't even get a slap on the wrist.
froot_loop_dingus_@reddit
Starfleet doesn’t seem to have an HR department of any kind. Every week the crew are subject to insane things that would cause all kinds of psychological damage and next week they’re just carrying on.
Mediocre_Daikon6935@reddit
me, a paramedic
What insane things that would cause psychological damage?
DJTilapia@reddit
They do, it's just that no one listens to them:
https://youtu.be/l7zB-ndflGA?si=_N51phDxMqCS1VkU
Cookie_Kiki@reddit
He still has less power than Locutus.
BlueRFR3100@reddit
Picard went right back to command after committing treason.
ShimizuKaito@reddit
Picard was put back in command after the Borg. Geordi wasn't pulled from duty because of the Romulan brainwashing. Even Data has weakness which can be exploited to control him, since those choices weren't made of sound mind but under the control of malicious entities they're considered victims not perpetrators.
wuumasta19@reddit
It's been some time since I've seen the episode.
As you said, he was being influenced by Lore as were those Borg.
Multiple characters become influenced and do bad things and go back to their roles.
Picard is one of them, becoming Borg most notable. At that point in the Borg conflict, they knew very little of how exactly it all worked.
Goes back to command and he caused lots of deaths, jeopardized earth. Far more than Data had done in that episode I believe.