I’m an AI dealer
Posted by bigfartspoptarts@reddit | sysadmin | View on Reddit | 125 comments
Smallish org, we rolled out the Claude desktop app to our first wave of users the other day. They started revving up cowork and burning through tokens. We were playing it by ear and seeing how much this team would burn through and they hit their token usage limit pretty fast.
Didn’t take long before the messages started rolling in.
“Hey can we get more tokens?”
“Sure, sure, how was the first run? What kinds of workflows did you set up? Everything working well?”
“Oh god, yes. This is great. This is amazing. Need more tokens.”
“That first hit is free but the second hit is gonna cost you dept budget.”
“Whatever it takes.”
These folks are like the hopped up monkeys in Jumanji, driving over sidewalks (other teams) and directly into buildings (product now thinks they can code) with ai all over their nose. And then we’ll wake up the next day and realize we actually accomplished nothing of any net benefit and did not save any money. In fact we went on a fucking BENDER and actually spent a fuck ton of money.
iredditshere@reddit
I love how they call money tokens, which cost money, it's so fucking deceptive. We got 'story points' which are level of effort goals, some efforts cost more story points. But, I think the industry uses this term to cushion the blow, of knowing how much money the vendor wants to charge. It's so diabolical, a child coukd see right through it. Tokens are fine for video game cabinets and ski ball. For AI... fuck all of that.
SimpleSysadmin@reddit
This is a coincidence you pay money to interact with the AI and the AI uses tokens not full words to understand language. “token” means a discrete unit of a language. You are not buying tokens like credits, token is just a measurement of how much data going in and out the ai
krilu@reddit
So how many words to a token? Oh it can vary? How interesting.
Ch0rt@reddit
you get full words in your tokens? how cost effective.
Frothyleet@reddit
It's not exactly the same. A "token" is not a unit of virtual currency, it's a measure of inference input/output. It's the only infrastructure-agnostic way to measure inference consumption, really.
The cost of a token itself varies substantially between providers and models, as it is an indirect measure of GPU time consumption.
fwambo42@reddit
but it still correlates directly back to cost. the only difference is that that measure of cost is different from provider to provider
Sk4nd@reddit
Liters of diesel still correlates directly back to cost, but you would not say that that's deceptive. A token is not something out of thin air, it's a measure of what AI uses to work; you pay for liters of diesel while refueling, as you pay for tokens when using AI
photoggled@reddit
They can justify it how they want, but like the other commenter said, its just an ambiguation of real money. Call it tokens, Microsoft Points, or wooden nickles. It's all the same.
Mission_Engineer_838@reddit
Actually wasn't this concept used in pay to win and loot box type grind video games first? Where they invent their own currency so you forget how much money you're spending?
jmbpiano@reddit
Chucky Cheese charged you tokens to play skee-ball back in the 80s, and I'm pretty sure even they weren't the first to come up with it.
krilu@reddit
I knew that damned rat is behind it all.
defiantleek@reddit
They took the concept being used in games to get kids hooked on their parents credit cards and got their parents hooked on their company cards
Zenkin@reddit
Even technical people have a habit of focusing on what they CAN do versus what they SHOULD do. One of our juniors was talking to us about how they'd like to document our environment, and they had some good ideas. They spent like 12 hours of their own time building out an IPAM solution. It looked neat, but.... those solutions already exist, why wouldn't they just spend 4 hours testing out phpIPAM?
Because they don't even know what solutions are already out there, and rather than researching people like to jump right into building. It's more fun, honestly. I'm sure they learned some things, so I'm not mad, but I do feel bad telling them their output isn't actually useful. Using AI is only work if it makes progress towards work goals.
GWSTPS@reddit
That is incredibly insightful. I have this idea for something that will help moving objects. It involves using round things underneath to make the movement so much easier.
glotzerhotze@reddit
this?
maxlan@reddit
Even before AI: if people didn't build a new solution because one existed already, GitHub would be a shadow of what it is now.
There are so many projects that are nearly the same as something else with minor differences.
But with AI, people who don't know php can recreate phpIPAM in 12hours, rather than needing a whole dev team.
Zenkin@reddit
Which is neat. But reinventing the wheel isn't productive work, from a business perspective. And now you don't just have to fill out phpIPAM with accurate information, you also have to maintain your new software stack, too. It's adding to the overall technical debt.
This is amazing for hobbyists. It lets people try out ideas in ways they never could before. It's probably really good for learning, too. The main thing I question is how much productivity is actually increasing, though. Making neat things is not necessarily doing productive work, even if there are other benefits.
wezelboy@reddit
I've been using ChatGPT a bit, but I rarely ask it to do something for me. I always ask it "How do I do this?". It usually comes back with a good overview of available solutions, their pros and cons, and what not. Then I pick a route and do a deeper dive. I've generally been successful with this.
Zenkin@reddit
I'm guessing the mistake the junior made was saying "how do I build this tool?" rather than asking YOUR question about how to accomplish the task in front of them. I assume AI would have suggested existing solutions for the task.
BasementMillennial@reddit
Watching how fast civilization has relied more and more on Ai without proper guardrails has..... concerned me
LinuxJeb@reddit
Well, keeps us employed.
NteworkAdnim@reddit
for now....
payne_train@reddit
If yall have not seen the BMAD framework yet you really should. It’s far from perfect but it works to the point that I have a very bad feeling about what it’s going to do to this industry.
Plastic_Willow734@reddit
Gonna be interesting when Claude, CoPilot, ChatGPt, Gemini, whoever else eventually severely jack up their enterprise rates once everyone forgets how to use their own brain
thortgot@reddit
Local models aren't that bad and set a pretty reasonable price maximum.
currancchs@reddit
Yep, this is what I think is going to happen. Same playbook as Uber/Lyft - get people used to the service, which you are providing at a loss initially, then jack up the rates.
yumdumpster@reddit
This is the playbook of every single tech company over the last 20 years. Offer product at a loss -> Get people hooked ---> Jack up price into the stratosphere
Frothyleet@reddit
I mean the play has been around a lot longer than that. Back in the day, when family-owned stores still existed, everyone would be sad about the classic "Walmart rolls into small town, takes losses until the independent shops shut down, then resumes normal operations."
turudd@reddit
Cause we don’t have laws against it. Look how many companies try and fail to do that in Europe. The laws are different there
yumdumpster@reddit
Its not though. What you are describing is called dumping and it was largely illegal in the US until the supreme court raised the bar for proving dumping so high that it is not routinely prosecuted anymore.
Its still technically illegal though no one is getting prosecuted for it anymore.
Frothyleet@reddit
I'm not saying it's OK, or necessary legal. I'm saying that it's not unique to the tech industry. It's been a standard shitty capitalistic tradition for a long time.
skojevac7@reddit
Isn't that Capitalism 101 ?
yumdumpster@reddit
No because its missing the "competition" aspect. These are not free markets that anyone can participate in.
RhombusAcheron@reddit
its so cool how we can see the consequences of our economic system and its incentive structures play out over and over again in real time and to our collective detriment but there's always a guy trying to be like oh its not real capitalism because it doesnt match an oversimplified model he learned in high school.
yumdumpster@reddit
My bachelors and masters were double majors in History and Political science, so an over simplified model that I learned at University thank you very much.
ncc74656m@reddit
Enshittification at its finest.
porkchameleon@reddit
You and /u/Plastic_Willow734 said it.
You can still get rideshare on the cheap as a customer, but the quality plummeted over the years (remember how they rebranded Uber Black once they got Teslas from Hertz, at least in the US, and you started paying higher rates for shittier cars?)
And the drivers also getting shafted, just ask anyone with 10 years or over 10,000 trips about it.
Exalting_Peasant@reddit
Its a great way to get regulated into being a utility in the long run
theEvilQuesadilla@reddit
Wow. You have a MUCH more positive outlook than I do.
Plastic_Willow734@reddit
Oh we're super duper fucked. But it'll be interesting
sriracharade@reddit
Oil/gas prices make this an inevitability.
MaToP4er@reddit
There is so much money to cover any BS that will happen that it wont harm any AI whatsoever. So, yeah, the welathiest companies will keep be on market eating other small ones and thats it
porkchameleon@reddit
I don't think the point is to "harm" AI.
It's the humans who are going to eventually get brain and thought process atrophy.
And problem solving? Thoughts and prayers...
MaToP4er@reddit
probably worded it not good at all. what i meant to say is that even when any of mentioned AIs will screw up some enterprise we wont see major flip cuz all those have enough money to clean the mess
BasementMillennial@reddit
Respectfully, good!
Shareholders and executives have gone soulless and are messing with people's livelihood and cutting their positions just to raise their portfolio $$, by trying to get ai to do people's job and offshoring jobs to 3rd world countries. Im all for jacking the price on them and watching them scramble
NDaveT@reddit
Watching investors and consumers get on a hype train as if they hadn't learned any lessons from the dot-com bubble concerns me.
LakeSuperiorIsMyPond@reddit
They aren't even recognizing that they are training Claude to perform their daily tasks right now. As soon as Claude is doing your job, what benefit do you bring to the company? Put the tokens on the corporate Amex and no more 401k match, sick pay, timeclock management, 40 hour labor restrictions, health dental vision benefits....
Keep training it though.
NteworkAdnim@reddit
mmmhmmm
synthdrunk@reddit
It doesn’t matter, and it hasn’t mattered. We’ve been off-shoring, culling staff and training WAAAAY before LLMs. The solution that’s been will be the solution that’s to come. You keep one senior to babysit the contractors^WAI.
LakeSuperiorIsMyPond@reddit
Yep. It's going to cut down management positions too because you're not validating timecards and PTO, you're just ensuring all the automated ai staff doesn't restart and remained logged off
CableInteresting2673@reddit
oh yeah dude this is any future ai war sci fi warning story personified and there is so much money in it now that is actually near too big to fail. Cooked.
Maybe this happens to every civilization which is why the universe seems so empty, a great filter like thingy.
:)
bdanmo@reddit
We’re so fucking fucked
sableknight13@reddit
Everyone intentionally feeding it all their personal, corporate, and private business data is insanity. They're all going to turn around and use this to profile, target, and replace you with the big corporations information. We already have evidence AI models are being used to target and eliminate.... 'opposition' in Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, Iran. It won't be long before it's turned against you. Giving big corpos AI models your private business information willingly is just peak stupidity.
simulation07@reddit
I love when my value instantly goes up. I’m working on my exit strategy now.
Pulling an opposite “you’re gonna need to reapply for my labor cost”.
Meanwhile - the narrative is that IT positions are few and far between & salaries are being lowered while inflation runs rampant (while inflation calculations also get changed) while taxes and fees are raised.
Practical_Shower3905@reddit
Fuck guardrails, lets go all-in on black baby !!!
MaToP4er@reddit
Like everything else was with guardrails and assisted properly? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
PigeonRipper@reddit
Yeah I have noticed this. To be fair I went through the same when I first started using AI. But I think non-technical users get hit even harder because suddenly they can make computer do things they could never dream of doing themselves before.
Mindestiny@reddit
They also have no concept of what a "token" is and spend a lot of time suboptimally engaging with the LLM, asking six questions to get to the result a single clear prompt would have given.
Exalting_Peasant@reddit
We spent in tokens what it would have cost to hire a skilled software dev team of 8 people for 5 years straight!
PrincipleExciting457@reddit
Yeah, but they didn’t have to pay someone to work!
ncc74656m@reddit
Ok but at least the AI didn't plug in an unsecured access point to your corporate network.
lateralUnilateral@reddit
I don't need AI for random users to just decide to do that anyway.
ncc74656m@reddit
Exactly my point - I had two different devs do that at different companies, and a third and fourth do other equally boneheaded shit.
Exalting_Peasant@reddit
Bo but it did tell Janet from ops to do it
theEvilQuesadilla@reddit
Are you serious?
Exalting_Peasant@reddit
No but pretty soon I will be!
Mindestiny@reddit
And all we got we got was this lousy t-shirt.
PerforatedPie@reddit
Don't forget all the reassurance that we were coming up with novel ideas that have great potential.
1esproc@reddit
The high they're riding on is getting their work done way faster. Not realizing the reward for finishing your work is more work. They will be in a new hole shortly.
Zenkin@reddit
Are they actually getting their work done faster? Or does it just feel like it?
I had a PM send an AI script over to my technical team. He only spent 20 minutes or so getting it out, which is cool, but..... the script didn't do what we needed it to do. So a tech spends 40 minutes reviewing several hundred lines and then explaining to the PM why this wouldn't work and how they're going to want to start off with a different structure than what this had anyways.
The PM was super excited about their "work," but he literally wasted time for everyone involved. It was anti-productive.
1esproc@reddit
Hey if the LLMs can hallucinate outcomes why can't staff?
meatballwrangler@reddit
yeah, there is genuinely no incentive to work yourself to the bone. do the bare minimum, punch out, and actually live your life. it's depressing to see how so many people just dump their entire sense of self worth into a job that is actively training a hallucinating autocorrect to replace them
work_m_19@reddit
There is a disincentive for doing the bare minimum though, because it's to avoid being fired or being laid off when the next wave hits.
There is a medium between working yourself to the bone and the bare minimum, and that golden spot is where we all should aspire to be in to have a healthy work life balance.
1esproc@reddit
😂 well put.
PigeonRipper@reddit
I hope you are right. The alternative is not great for anyone.
Flabbergasted98@reddit
Most AI tools have a flaw where each time you post to a session the the AI rereads the entire session history before responding.
This is why claude users easily burn through their tokens, many of them are tryinng to continue their sessions over the course of the day/week.
The average end user doesn't close their tabs. The same is true for their sessions.
Trying to do anything with claude tokens is a bit like trying to operate off cell phone data charges back in the early 2000's you'd constantly go over usage limits with no clear understanding of why.
ChromeShavings@reddit
AI policy? DLP? Don’t make the same mistake most orgs are making right now. And if you recall, one of the monkey’s in Jumanji stole a police car.
NteworkAdnim@reddit
Fine. TAKE IT!
Classic-Shake6517@reddit
I'm trying so hard to get my org to prioritize endpoint DLP while fighting my bosses (director of security and CTO) to slow down and stop considering allowing Claude cowork. It's crazy that this is even an argument.
This is our third major AI rollout without considering endpoint DLP. It's like they want company data to leak.
We are considering ourselves an AI first company and I can't disagree. AI before everything including common sense.
notHooptieJ@reddit
the moment you do this .. all the kids see you as This guy:
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/46/6c/e0/466ce04bbc42a8d9697e6e92596005e5--jumanji-goals.jpg
there is no winning this.
much like a drug addict, we're gonna need to wait for these folks to hit rock bottom, and get a hallucination at the wrong moment.
you cannot help an addict who doesnt want help.
They're all gonna need to feel some pain before they let us start handing out vaccinations.
ncc74656m@reddit
If you're lucky enough to be allowed to implement an AI policy. 🙄 I work with childish execs who think bc the board doesn't know they're allowed to do anything they want by decree.
turudd@reddit
Just wait till these companies have to start making money… better hope they critical mass of companies willing to pay the actual cost of tokens or it’s gonna be painful.
Mission_Engineer_838@reddit
I've got an end user now who thinks he can replace an expensive commercial program (once niche to our industry) with his own vibe coding. Zero prior programming experience and once in the past said he should be a Luddite. I mean, good initiative I guess but there's a reason why commercial software costs a lot (and it isn't solely corporate greed).
kingpoiuy@reddit
They might be right. Those massive expensive programs are usually garbage.
Frothyleet@reddit
Honestly, the market for expensive-garbage-but-extremely-specific-to-your-industry LOB apps is one of the few things I won't be sad to see vibe coding potentially kill.
Like, you're already in a shitty place when there's exactly one ERP that works for your industry of laser-welding cat toys, which was written by a guy in his spare time in '93 who has been semi-retired for 15 years. Why not let Bob in accounting see if Claude can replicate it?
Mission_Engineer_838@reddit
Well, it's niche but not that niche. And relatively recently produced. Otherwise I'd agree with your points. But yeah, Bob from accounting isn't going to be duplicating this.
ncc74656m@reddit
It's the economy of scale especially one associated with niche products. It's a small part of why that one weird textbook you had in school cost $1000, because they literally only printed a few hundred or thousand copies, and they're all in school libraries or used in one particular grad program.
MyLegsX2CantFeelThem@reddit
So you’re an asshole who is actively pushing a technology that is causing people to lose their jobs, while the richest of business owners and investors get a larger cut of cash.
GTFO
Bluetooth_Sandwich@reddit
AI taking jobs is a real concern but the hyperbole of it is not reality. Majority of job losses aren't due to AI, it's because companies are running into liquidity issues since the entire US economy is running into liquidity issues...leading to labor layoffs.
Togamdiron@reddit
It's obvious from their last paragraph that OP thinks this is a bad idea, but they're not the one calling the shots. You're barking up the wrong tree.
notHooptieJ@reddit
so .. you cancelled it , and went back to the way it was?
this is a story with no ending.
geekywarrior@reddit
So I've been seeing comment histories pop up like op's in the last week or so.
1-2 sentence comments on varied subreddits. Tone leaning towards snarky or doomer liberal. Then a large post relating to AI in some way.
Feels like some sort of comment farming or something.
bigfartspoptarts@reddit (OP)
lol you have? I am Claude now.
geekywarrior@reddit
It's also funny that they seem to drill into comment threads to mock me when I mention the pattern.
bigfartspoptarts@reddit (OP)
You’re absolutely right!
But honestly not a bot or a shill, I am a dealer though apparently
Ansible32@reddit
I think people genuinely are this unhinged about AI, they desperately hate it and want it to go away.
bigfartspoptarts@reddit (OP)
That’s fair, but you’re gonna be disappointed if you think the conclusion is near for anyone at all. This is the GRRM timeline and you just saw Cersei fucking her brother for the first time.
notHooptieJ@reddit
eh... George RR martin?
I thinking this is more George Miller.
we're going to be taking to the wasteland soon seeking the Juice.. the precious juice.
Mindestiny@reddit
I assumed the drug allusions insinuated that they are now wholly addicted to AI and will not be cancelling anything, but instead arguing over who took $20 from moms purse to buy more smack.
Sprucecaboose2@reddit
I can't wait to see how these Ai code bases and systems hold up when they need to be serviced or gone through in the future, or if we're just bought in as a species to Ai all the way down.
B1ackMagix@reddit
I’ve worked AI into my personal workflows around my home lab to enhance what I’m doing. I’ve made damn sure that everything I work on is commented in a way that I understand it and the systems I’ve used AI assistance with are ones I understand or at least know where the manual is when I need to fix it.
I worked this the hard way when I hit a hard stop with a backup error, fixed it then came back several months later with no idea what the fix was. That was the realization for me.
I can’t imagine the trouble some of these companies are getting themselves into without knowing better.
Since then I’ve had several things break that I’ve been able to diagnose, resolve and redeploy thanks to good practices that I learned the hard way in my own way.
photoggled@reddit
That's cute but most orgs aren't documenting today, with known tools. It's going to be a wastleand out there.
B1ackMagix@reddit
Absolutely agreed. Again, I learned that lesson at a smaller scale than some of these companies are about to.
bionic80@reddit
We really are speed running to organizational collapse most of the time with these, people realize that right?
CaptainSquishyCheeks@reddit
This cracked me up, even though I have to deal with this bullshit every day - Thank you for the laugh :)
PotatoOfDestiny@reddit
It's really astounding how much vibe coding is basically FanDuel, but for your actual job
Think_Inspector_4031@reddit
On a big massive scale
What's the investment to reward ratio for IT to get create 10 or 20 powerful AI GPU servers and run things locally?
I've been eyeing the Mac studio ultra, only because it's just me, and the electric to noise ratio to square footage is a factor for me personally.
discgman@reddit
Lets fire all the workers due to AI and then jack up AI rates so that they will have to rehire those people to save money.
981flacht6@reddit
Anthropic forgot to buy enough compute.
BadSausageFactory@reddit
that's pretty much us too, but let me add requests like 'but you don't have to give extra tokens to everyone, just me, right?' we're not even out of food and the bastards are turning on each other
I worry that six months from now we're going to wake up in a shady hotel with no pants and someone banging on the door saying we have to pay the bill or get out of the room
ncc74656m@reddit
You forgot the tub of ice and your missing kidney. And of course it'll be the guy who was like "Just give ME more tokens."
ncc74656m@reddit
My exec team is pushing absurdly hard for AI, like, literally going "How many AIs can we get" and I'm like "You realize we literally aren't even allowed to use it for half of the stuff you want it to be used for, right?" Ahhh well, I just need to survive here long enough to get another job, and then I hopefully only need that job to last for two years.
Test-NetConnection@reddit
This is how 80% of all AO projects fail. Giving employees access to AI with no plan for how it can be integrated into workflows or measurably improve productivity is a disaster waiting to happen.
Frothyleet@reddit
It's all the same shitstorm. We just gotta sit around and wait until the bills come due and someone finally asks what the ROI was, and the industry corrects.
Rinychib@reddit
Can't wait to see reactions when they stop subsidizing costs
Legionof1@reddit
Selling weapons in the form of woooooords‽
AlexisFR@reddit
How fast will these tool become expensive enough were hiring more people will be significantly cheaper?
Optimaximal@reddit
So THAT is why it's so popular with marketing and sales teams?
fsharpminor_3s@reddit
Dude, samesies. They are never satisfied.
eufemiapiccio77@reddit
Just keep spending
Extra-Organization-6@reddit
wait until they figure out they can run local models and bypass your token limits entirely. then you go from dealer to border patrol.
SlickAstley_@reddit
I dont get how it cant save you money. We integrated it into Whitepapers and historical tickets and can reduce headcount by £70,000
Sacrificial_Identity@reddit
Congrats, you're a drug dealer... kinda
Euphoric-Blueberry37@reddit
Fork found in GitHub
cmack@reddit
And?