Spain or South Africa? Looking for advice or opinions (warning: long post)
Posted by tatertotski@reddit | expats | View on Reddit | 60 comments
My husband and I are feeling incredibly stuck when it comes to making a decision on where to move next, and would value any advice or opinions from outsiders at this point.
Background: I’m 31F (American) and he’s 43M (South African). For the past 10 years we’ve lived abroad in Botswana. I work remotely for a US-based company and he’s a shareholder of a small company based here in Bots (but he can transition to remote work).
We are considering moving to Spain (a little town outside of San Sebastian). We are also considering having a baby in the next year or two. My parents (retired Americans) now live in Spain and we really loved it there in the times we visited. We are considering Spain for these reasons:
- Crime is low in my parents’ town and it seems like a really safe and wonderful place for a potential child to grow up (plus after being in Africa so long I want the safety for myself/my husband, too).
- The area we would live would offer huge lifestyle improvements and access to things we don’t have now and desperately long for (culture, variety of food, live music, different activities and sports we can partake in, access to nature we don’t have anywhere around here, things we desperately miss and long for after being in Bots for so long).
- We’re excited to explore Europe and have residency there, which is a huge benefit for my husband who has a passport that generally makes it very difficult to travel outside of Africa
- My parents would be very hands-on grandparents and that would be a benefit, even if we couldn’t necessarily afford nannies (yes, I know these two things aren't the same, but it's still a plus).
But we also have major hesitations, due to the following:
- There is no tax agreement between Bots and Spain, so my husband will need to pay double taxes. Ouch. This would make our combined income, after taxes and monthly social security payments, about 70,000 Euros (maybe more, but we want to be very cautious with estimates). Right now we manage to save a solid amount of money every month and money genuinely is not a stress in our lives. We're scared of moving somewhere where it would become a stress or we wouldn't be able to save.
- Our Spanish is conversational at best. We speak Portuguese but are very worried about the language barrier, even though we would start language lessons immediately
- We’re worried about assimilating and making friends (my husband more so than me)
- We don’t know what the medical system is like (how easy is it to find doctors, make appointments, etc?). We like that in South Africa you can book an appointment with a doctor directly (no referral needed) and get very good medical care for very cheap.
The other option is that we go to South Africa. The benefits here are:
- Everyone speaks English
- We have health insurance in SA and the private medical system there is very very good
- Cost of living is still very reasonable/affordable (this could also be true for Spain but we haven’t spent enough time there to know for sure)
- My husband is South African so the process of moving there would be fairly easy and I would qualify for a spousal or remote worker visa.
- Childcare is incredibly affordable. We could have a daily nanny if we wanted to.
- We already have a car in Bots so bringing it to SA means we don’t need to buy a brand new car
- It’s easier to move our cat to SA than it is to Spain (30 hours of flying and driving for an anxious cat is a terrifying thought).
Downsides are:
- The crime in South Africa is awful. I hate the culture of everything being behind bars, walls, and electric fences. When we go visit SA I get so sick of the constant vigilance. I’m hugely independent - hiker, climber, outdoors person - and that would be taken from me in SA because women can’t do anything on their own. My head would always be on a swivel.
- Husband would still have to pay more in taxes because he currently avoids it by living and working in Bots. Moving to SA means he will have to pay taxes there which are considerable - and you don't get any benefits from paying taxes in SA.
- Rent seems to be about the same in SA vs. San Sebastian, although in SA you get more space for what you pay.
- I honestly always said I never wanted to live in SA. The infrastructure is falling apart, the culture of everything being in a shopping mall, the pollution and trash… I just think after so long in this part of the world I’m sick of it. Husband agrees. The only place I would actually consider living in SA are Cape Town/Cape Winelands but my husband’s family and friends are in KZN so that’s where we would probably have to live.
So this is where we are. If anyone has moved to either country with similar feelings or in a similar situation, or honestly even if you just are bored and feel like weighing in on a stranger’s life haha, please, I’m all ears.
Thanks, folks.
WorkingSudden8931@reddit
One thing worth knowing on housing: the Basque Country is expensive, San Sebastian itself can run €1,200-1,600/month for a decent 2-bed. Small towns nearby like Zarautz or Hernani are meaningfully cheaper and still very liveable. As non-EU residents you will also want to line up an apartment before you arrive, since most landlords want proof of local income or a guarantor, so browsing actual listings in advance on seeki.eu can help you get a realistic picture of what is available and at what price.
r_kap@reddit
I’m not sure what the cost of living is like in Spain, could you afford a home and child care with that income? I’m in Germany and daycare centers are subsidized. If you could afford it then on safety issues alone I would go to Spain.
If you speak Portuguese then Spanish shouldn’t be too difficult, friends can be made and your kid gets to grow up with family nearby.
tatertotski@reddit (OP)
From what I've researched it looks like daycare in the Basque Country (where we would be) is subsidized as well. As for buying a home, we would most definitely have to take out a loan, which would be a shock to the system since we've never had to do that up until now. Although I do know that's a fairly normal part of "adulting." Frankly we would probably want to rent for the first year or two until we really feel confident that we want to stay.
xoensan@reddit
it is subsiized for low income residents. You are neither low income nor resident.
Serious_Escape_5438@reddit
They'll be residents when they move and childcare is subsidised for everyone to some extent. If they get a place in a public centre that's automatically subsidised, and there is a a childcare tax deduction (introduced once my child was past that age annoyingly).
xoensan@reddit
I am Spanish. Spots in public Kindergarten centers are limited..no way they are getting a slot with 70 k€ income
Serious_Escape_5438@reddit
Spots are not awarded based on income, although they'll pay more than someone with a lower income. In some places it's easier to get in than others, but the system works much like school enrollment, not income based as such. Even if they don't get in, there are tax credits for childcare.
xoensan@reddit
Let me be more specific. The less you esrn, the more likely u are to get a public spot, since low income earners have preference. As I said, I am Spanish, I have a daughter and I did not get a public spot because of my income. Neither did my sister
Serious_Escape_5438@reddit
I also have a daughter in Spain and income was not used to determine who got a place in guardería. We got a place in a public one and had a high income, as did many of the other families. Yes some people with special vulnerabilities get more points, but the only actual income criteria used is receiving IMV. There aren't enough places sure, and some people don't get a place, but it doesn't work as you say. Other people had more points for other reasons, or they don't get a spot in the lottery.
tatertotski@reddit (OP)
Thanks, that’s good to know. Although the visa we’d get includes residency.
cyril_zeta@reddit
You'd be quite comfortable on 70k in Spain, especially in some backwater there. Not rich, but very comfortable. Median gross income in Spain is like 25k.
jamjar188@reddit
I doubt a town near one of the most expensive cities in Spain is a "backwater".
A backwater might be a small town in Castille far from a major city, or a rural region like Extremadura.
thekrushr@reddit
San Sebastian is hardly a backwater. It's one of the more expensive areas in Spain. Having said that, 70k will be enough to live comfortably.
Original_Account_908@reddit
Security has no price, honestly. That would be the biggest factor for me.
I’ve been living in Madrid for the last 12 years, and one of the biggest things Spain gives you is peace of mind in everyday life. Being able to walk around, go out, raise a child, and just live without that constant background stress is priceless. That kind of security really changes your quality of life in ways that are hard to measure until you have it.
Another thing I really value in Spain is the sense of community. People still help each other, family life matters, and there’s a social warmth that makes day-to-day life feel more human. Especially if you’re thinking about having a baby, being near your parents and having that support system is a huge advantage. Hands-on grandparents plus a generally safer environment is a very strong combination.
On the financial side, Spain can feel heavy fiscally vs 0 tax... yes, but there are still legal ways to optimize that through planning, investments, structuring income properly, etc. It’s worth speaking to a good tax advisor before ruling it out based only on taxes.
From the way you wrote your post, it honestly sounds like your heart is already leaning toward Spain, and for understandable reasons and if security is your main concern, the selections seems to have been already done xD
Serious_Escape_5438@reddit
Maybe I'm missing something, how would you get residency in Spain? What visa? I think you can live on that in Spain, many people live on that, but it would be a Spanish lifestyle. The area you mention is particularly expensive, and notorious for being hard to make friends. Also remember the Basque language, that may be an issue for your child and school.
Otherwise, having only visited South Africa once I would hate to live there, the bars on windows and feeling of danger, and the whole culture of segregation, just don't make it somewhere I'd want to bring up a child.
tatertotski@reddit (OP)
Sorry I left this bit out as I wasn’t sure if it was relevant, but I would qualify for the Digital Nomad visa and my husband would be my dependent/spouse. We’ve already met with an immigration lawyer so I know for sure this is the path we would take and that we would qualify for it.
Good point about the basque language. As far as I know, quite a few schools in that area do teach in Spanish but yeah, I will look into this.
jamjar188@reddit
Yes, make sure you go to an area where you have school choice and where your kids wouldn't be required to go to an ikastola (Basque school).
Are your parents actually in the Basque country? Is there an option of going to a monolingual and potentially less politically inflamed region?
LadySwire@reddit
Yes, we Basques eat people.
Why move to a region you don't have intention to integrate?
jamjar188@reddit
Stop projecting. I said nothing bad about the Basque country.
However, it is entirely a point of consideration what language is spoken in a region and whether your kid will be expected to be bilingual. Remember that OP's kid will speak English at home. Some expats prefer the simplicity of a bilingual upbringing: one language at home, another at school and within general society.
When you add a third language into the mix, it is not necessarily to the benefit of the child. And Basque is not exactly an intuitive or easy language. For someone with no familial or cultural ties to Euskera it is absolutely worth taking this into consideration.
LadySwire@reddit
Then don't go to a place where there's a third language with a kid. It puts the burden on everyone else, including other kids
jamjar188@reddit
That's why we're having this conversation! What is your problem?
OP's parents don't have school-age children so won't have been able to tell her about the schooling system there. That's partly why OP is on this sub asking questions. No idea why you're in this sub, though...
LadySwire@reddit
I was mostly answering in the way you recommended to avoid ikastolas—but also: this is a public space, and And I’m an immigrant somewhere else too.
I’m just against the idea of people who “expat” themselves to places and then make it everyone else’s problem so their life is simpler
jamjar188@reddit
You're projecting a lot onto OP. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder.
And I never said to avoid ikastolas but it's unlikely to be the first choice of school for an expat family and that is also entirely within their right.
tatertotski@reddit (OP)
Sorry, but why do you have it in your head that we don’t want our child to learn Basque? I understand why you would feel strongly about this but please don’t put words in my mouth as I posted on this page specifically to learn about the nuances of raising a child in the Basque Country.
LadySwire@reddit
I was mostly answering to the person who recommended you to avoid ikastolas
tatertotski@reddit (OP)
They’re in Hondarribia. We’re open to being in other areas, although that region of Spain/basque country really seems amazing for us. But this is good to know about the schools. I’m going to look into this.
jamjar188@reddit
In that case, there is no point going far away from your parents.
I don't know too much about small towns in that area but it's a wealthy region so I imagine there will be some level of school choice. However, this may mean you have to look at private schools.
It's a real tricky issue in Spain. There's been a real push to prioritise minority languages in bilingual regions within Spain over the past 30 years and the momentum has only grown and grown. Education decisions are devolved to regional governments (similarly to how education is a state and not a federal matter in Spain, though).
I'm from Spain (live in the UK though) and just did a bit of quick google-searching in Spanish. Traditionally San Sebastian is mostly a Spanish-speaking region in terms of people's mother tongue. Apparently casual use of _euskera_ (Basque) on the street and in everyday interactions hovers at around 15%, though there are efforts to increase this.
Neverthess, Google tells me that education in the Basque country has adopted an "immersive" approach to ensure that everyone is bilinggual. It doesn't look like it is possible to study in a Spanish-language school within the public system. You either study in a bilingual school where euskera is prioritised over Spanish as a language of instruction, or you study in a full-on iskatola.
tatertotski@reddit (OP)
Thanks so much for your insights. I really, really appreciate you taking the time 🙏
Serious_Escape_5438@reddit
Yes, just the Basque thing might limit schools and some places might be better than others if you don't want to learn the language (understandably, it's difficult). If you can get the visa that's great, just bear in mind it's not supposed to be a permanent path to immigration, you'd have to change at some stage, and it may be hard to get a mortgage. But personally I think the ideal anyway would be to go and give it a try and if it doesn't work out go elsewhere.
No-Ambition-3386@reddit
I would say Spain as feeling safe is very important and having a support system as you have family in Spain too. In Europe you dont need as much money to live a "better quality" life. You can travel cheap. I do think having a child in a country where you dont speak the language may be a problem. I would see if there are doctors or clinics that speak English as you wouldnt want to not be able to understand if there are complications. Would it be possible for you to move to Portugal to have the baby instead and then live in Spain? You need to figure out the medical situation ASAP if thats what you want to do.
lesllle@reddit
Spain
MountainShip2765@reddit
Hondarribia is very beautiful! If you choose the Basque Country, you should keep in mind that Basque is often the main language of education for children. This can be an advantage from some perspectives, but a limitation or challenge from others. One option could be to consider an international school, either in the Spanish Basque Country or on the French side (though that would mean adding another language). Biarritz for example is quite expat friendly, but more expensive. I know there are American and British schools, but mainly around Bilbao and Pamplona (in Spain) and Pau (in France). In San Sebastián, I believe there is a bilingual French-Spanish school, but not sure about that. If you need any help, I’m French native, bilingual in Spanish, originally from not far from the French Basque Country (and I lived near Bilbao and in Pamplona a long time ago). I’m also a Spanish and French tutor, feel free to reach out. Anyway, good luck.
YoucancallmeAL86@reddit
Spain vs South Africa is a no brainer. I don’t think anyone voluntarily lives in SA anymore. My husband is South African and was in the UK where I’m from and where we met for 20yrs and he was desperate to try life out of the UK and SA just wasn’t an option for literally every reason you’ve mentioned. It’s massively unsafe, corrupt, inefficient and backwards. The family he has left there would move if they had the option.
We decided to try Spain and it’s much more difficult than I anticipated with the language barrier but if you are prepared to learn and have some patience you will get there for sure. Having your parents with you will be a godsend if you have kids and I’m sure you’ll be able to find a nanny if you need it but guardaria (daycare) is super affordable and it will be invaluable to have a support network when you have kids. Spain is gorgeous but it really depends where you go as where we are is too sleepy and isolated for me but San Sebastián would be super cool I think.
Sadly I’m not loving being in Spain purely because I miss my friends and family in the UK so we will end up back there but if I had more support here I would stay for sure.
Pristine_Bid_1922@reddit
The Basque Country is a very nice place with an excellent lifestyle but I'm afraid you'll almost never be able to integrate. Northern Spaniards/Basque are culturally distant people and incredibly direct, for better or worse. It's just the way it is. And I'm saying this as a half Basque/half something else person.
If you can make peace with that it'll be fine, but do not expect the portuguese politeness or the warmth of other spanish regions, climate-wise or culturally-wise.
Thariax1982@reddit
You sound like a racist, so it's definitely better for everyone that you go live in Spain.
LadySwire@reddit
No, it's not. She's already planning for their child not to learn the local language. Leave the Basque Country alone
tatertotski@reddit (OP)
Sorry, but why do you have it in your head that we don’t want our child to learn Basque? All I said was that I would want them to go to a school where they also learn Spanish or where Spanish is primary with basque secondary. I understand why you would feel strongly about this but please don’t put words in my mouth as I posted on this page specifically to learn about the nuances of raising a child in the Basque Country.
Thariax1982@reddit
My apologies, I do feel bad for some of my wonderful friends in the Basque Country but the last thing Cape Town needs is another colonizer "digital nomad". They can't even call themselves immigrants due to their delusional racism.
LowkeyDotie@reddit
Spain for me every time. My wife and I are 70 and we live in Ireland. We are 53°N and in the North Atlantic, with its Winter storms, so we visit Spain whenever we can for some Winter sunshine. We also visit the Canary Islands for even warmer winter weather. Spain can be cold in Winter, especially in the north, where the Atlantic influence makes it not too dissimilar to Ireland. Right now (mid April 2026) we are in Thailand (12°N). The temperature is 34° as the Sun is almost directly overhead...and we love it. Our daughter.lives in Barcelona, where the temperature is finally in the mid-twenties. I have never been to SA but I know several natives, two of whom are working in Ireland because the the better work oportunities and salaries. I would not like to live there, and certainly not raise a family there, even though the climate is warmer than in Spain, especially the north of Spain. The health system in Spain is great, the transport system is good, the people are family-oriented, so if you have kids you will quicly integrate. You are young enough to learn the lingo. Salaries are relatively low while rents in many of the cities are relatively high, which is keeping a lot of young Spaniards out of the housing market. Spain is a liberal democracy and if I had to live anywhere for a few years I would choose Spain.
tatertotski@reddit (OP)
Thank you for the insight. I really appreciate all of that.
Consistent-Barber428@reddit
Not even close.
SA is close to being a failed state and it’s unclear if the DA can fix that. Spain is superior in every way so you are using your money to buy that superior lifestyle. And that’s what money is for.
There are two hesitations you are correct about. One is the language. Outside of Madrid and Barcelona, you need at least B-level Spanish. But you’re young. You can learn it. I did it at 60. So start studying now. Preferably in a FTF class—apps are bul)&;t. Been here 4 years and have never seen anyone learn sufficient Spanish from an app.
The second is integration. Most expats struggle to integrate because of language. But another big reason is the Spanish base their lives almost entirely around family and friends they acquired in childhood. You won’t be either of those so will always be somewhat on the outside. Then again, you have your family and you will meet expats if you try.
Amantes09@reddit
As someone now living in Spain and considered South Africa, Botswana and Portugal as alternatives, Id still choose Spain. The language is much easier than Portuguese - if you speak Portuguese you should be able to understand Spanish near perfectly.
Healthcare is good and efficient. You'll be able to get appointments with doctors pretty easily especially if on private healthcare.
Safety is excellent.
Having childcare and family support is very important.
Please note that the language in school is going to be Basque if in Basque country. I don't think there's a way to get past that so think about it for your child's future.
Your income is more than enough to live comfortably.
Would you be eligible for the Non Lucrative Visa instead of the Digital Nomad Visa? It has a path to long term residency and eventually citizenship.
As for taxation, you may be able to get some tax relief for foreign income depending on how that income is structured.
As for making friends, you will most likely end up with other foreigners as your friends because, in my experience, Spanish people generally have tight friend groups going back to childhood.
On balance, I'd think Spain is an excellent option for your family.
Amantes09@reddit
You're welcome. All the best.
BTW, I am Black African if that helps.
tatertotski@reddit (OP)
Thank you very much for your very thoughtful and detailed reply.
Zealousideal_Rub6758@reddit
South Africa is so diverse. There are little gems everywhere, you can't blanket it all as crime ridden.
tatertotski@reddit (OP)
It's totally beautiful. I agree. But from my own experiences and my husband and his family's experiences there, the risk is very real, especially where we would be living in KZN. It's part of life there and some people are ok with that but we don't know if we are.
tr0gdar@reddit
Hey, hi from another American in Botswana! I agree with your assessment of a lot of the situation in South Africa, so my pick would be Spain. The tax thing is rough and the language barrier is real, but I think the situation sounds like you would be more comfortable.
Good luck!
Fewpop40@reddit
70k is more than twice the median salary in Spain. You'll be fine financially there.
WarmChickenSalad@reddit
Im not that familiar with Spain but we've been here for a few weeks in 3 different parts of country and groceries are super cheap. Surprisingly cheap.
Old_Letterhead_9702@reddit
If your visas for Spain are sorted, then definitely go to Spain! You're also close to france, so you have tons of possibilities to explore. In regards to south africa, first check if they would give you residency!, you might think youll get it automatically since your hubby is SA but that's just not true. Yes you could always appeal if you are prepared not to leave the country for 2 years but is that really worth it?
Slow_Tourist_8716@reddit
Hi, I’m a Canadian woman married to a SA. We are considering a move to Spain in the next few years. We just got back from a month in SA - in the Western Cape so it was a gorgeous trip. I’ve been many times and lived there right after Nelson Mandela was elected (I’m older than you). Honestly, we noticed huge improvements. We spent a week in Bloemfontein (family) and noticed great improvements there as well. I love SA. I love it deeply. But I won’t live there. Not yet. If something were to happen to me or my beloved husband I’d never forgive myself because my gut tells me it just isn’t safe. You would lose your independence for sure in many ways, as you know. What I would say to you is listen to your gut.♥️
tatertotski@reddit (OP)
Thank you, I appreciate the reply. It's comforting to know I'm not alone feeling that way. SA is indeed so beautiful, but it's just too much. Far too many stories of home invasions and robberies and carjackings gone wrong.
If you end up in the Basque area, reach out to me! Our husbands can have a braai and watch the Springboks together, I think that's what he's worried about missing out on the most 😉💛
Rosycheex@reddit
I live in cape town and i love it here, but I wouldn't live in this country if I had to live in KZN. Move to Spain. You'll pick up the language easily as it's adjacent to Portuguese and your family there will be a huge help to you having kids.
YellowBook@reddit
I was an ex-pat in Spain, can attest that healthcare is very good (used both private and public).
tatertotski@reddit (OP)
That's good to know, thank you.
Careful_Ad5394@reddit
Spain for sure. 70k/month is an obscene amount
tatertotski@reddit (OP)
70k/year, not month :) sorry if that wasn't clear.
petitbateau12@reddit
Spain seems like the obvious choice here. You can try it out for a year (renting of course) and see if you like it. You can visit family in SA for an extended period.
Zenzappppper@reddit
I am South African and live in US- Go to SPAIN!!!
SondraRose@reddit
Momma feeling safe and relaxed are the most important requirements for a happy baby. Babies don’t care about how much money you have.