Why does USA and Canada keep taking Ls in carrying certain Toyota models?
Posted by PM-88@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 95 comments
I recently saw the new Japanese Toyota Crown sedan and was left speechless and saddened when I read it will not be available in USA. It would kill similar size sedan brands. It looks godly. So unfortunate.
Then I found out Toyota still makes the traditional Land Cruiser but only in Asia and Middle East with a twin turbo V6 and it looks amazing.
What’s the reasoning?
Fearless_Neat_6654@reddit
The LC 300 could probably work in the US/Canada
Toyota can technically already sell them here since they sell the LX.
If they offered two versions of the LC 300, say the GR Sport and the Sahara ZX and sold them each for around 105-115k, they could move a few thousand each year with not much investment and a sizeable return.
SirLoremIpsum@reddit
No way at all.
The 100/200 sold poorly, hugely poorly compared to the Sequoia. Theres no chance the 300 would have done any better.
A few thousand is an incredibly tiny figure. Toyota North America sells 1500-2500 Sequoias a month.
That is by no means "a healthy return on minimal investment".
The Sequoia is King for North America.
Fearless_Neat_6654@reddit
Its a small number, the full cream LC is no way supposed to be a volume seller. Even in its largest global markets, Toyota doesn't really sell more than 10–15k units annually.
There is a concept in sales known as optimization. Basically, Toyota doesn’t have to sell the most cars to make the most money. Instead, they can find the sweet spot where a high price (but not excessive to the point of chasing away customers) creates such a large profit margin that they make more total profit selling fewer units.
They just need to target the US/Canadian enthusiasts who want an LC 300 specifically and won't settle for a Sequoia and are willing to pay an extra 20-30k for an LC over a similarly equipped Sequoia (there are people like this). Toyota can secure a high return without the cost of a mass-market rollout.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
We have the TT Land Cruiser, its called an lx700, we had the standard Land Cruiser alongside it too the previous gen, nobody bought it
Likewise we had the Avalon for years, then the slightly taller crown sedan, fewer & fewer people buy them
Snazzy21@reddit
This is what so so many well known automotive people get wrong (like Demuro and Cammisa), the LC200 was a total failure. It's best years were still a failure for Toyota. A LC300 wouldn't have fixed that.
The "stealth wealth" argument is a fallacy, if there is a profit to be had (thats a HUGE if), it pales in comparison to the profit they currently make by selling a boatload of LC250s to normal people. The same is true for the Avalon, it didn't justify it's position.
RiftHunter4@reddit
I feel like the Land Cruiser craze is a recent development. Seems like no one cared about them 10 years ago. It had a cult following.
TurboSalsa@reddit
Yes, 10-15 years ago the 100 Series Land Cruisers had fully depreciated and those in the know could get clean examples with 100k or less on them for $10-12k. As long as you didn't mind the gas mileage, they were genuine bargains at those prices considering the cool factor and how much more one could realistically expect to drive one with 100k on it.
Seems like everyone wanted to get into overlanding during COVID and started bidding the prices up, and now people are paying $15-20k+ for vehicles that need a lot of expensive work, as the newest 100 Series is almost 20 years old at this point. And of course the types who don't go off road but want to look like they do, and have money to spend on a cool "vintage" car are buying them as well.
The 200 Series never really depreciated like that because their best sales year was like 1/10th the volume of the 100 Series in its best sales year, so they never really flooded the used market like the old ones did.
FriendOfDirutti@reddit
Car journalists really bug me sometimes because they review things in a vacuum with little input from reality.
The numbers are crazy. I can’t recall exactly what they were but it was something like the LC250 sold more in its first year than the 200 did in 13 years. Something like that.
Americans don’t want a heavy very expensive mild off-roader. We want a more nimble sporty off roader at a decent price.
If I’m spending $100k on an off-roader it better be a Baja Truck ready to go stock. If I’m buying a $100k SUV for the street it better have a Porsche or Lamborghini badge.
I wish we could get the Jimney because I think that thing would do gang busters. I’m glad Toyota leaned more that direction than towards a LC300.
Przedrzag@reddit
The LC250 isn’t even that much more nimble than the LC300. It’s simply slightly smaller, somewhat less well equipped, and with a smaller engine. The price difference is 95% of why it’s selling more
FriendOfDirutti@reddit
The LC300 is much larger and it’s heavier.
https://youtu.be/Pzek1yZb0Bs
Mjolnir12@reddit
On the other hand the 300/LX doesn’t really have much more interior space than the 250. It’s kind of in a weird spot.
Przedrzag@reddit
The 300 is only 1-3.5” longer than the 250; the LX at least gets another 3-8.5” on top of that
Mjolnir12@reddit
The LX has less interior space than the 300 though. The extra length is just bumpers and stuff.
dogpoopfruitloops@reddit
Styling plays a factor too. The LC300 looks like something a 75 year old might drive 200 miles a month in. The 250 is far better looking.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
yeah I never ever liked the Cammisa video. call it whatever you want, the full size sold like shit, the Prado's built a niche for itself. Its not trying to be as capable or durable just meet the needs of the market
(& it ended up being more reliable. as the 4cyls didn't grenade)
> The "stealth wealth" argument is a fallacy, if there is a profit to be had
Yeah, the only place where this is true is high-trim wagons where they make back the margin on insane specifications
& the other reason nobody bought the Land Cruiser, the Yukon Denali, we (americans) suck at a lot of things but if anything else we're damn good at making full-size trucks
RAMBIGHORNY@reddit
Yeah the LC200 just didn’t make sense in the US market, it was $85k when the LX570 with a nicer interior and Lexus dealer experience was another $5k. Kind of a no brainer.
Riverrattpei@reddit
Hell Canada dropped the Land Cruiser and went LX only back in '96 right around when the LX first came out
The current Land Cruiser (Prado) is the first time the name's been used in Canada since then
TheLastREOSpeedwagon@reddit
That's crazy I had no idea the land cruiser wasn't sold in Canada for that long. The J100 was really popular here. The one after wasn't as popular though.
Riverrattpei@reddit
Despite us liking trucks nearly as much as America the full size SUVs sell terribly up here
Like the best year ever for Tahoe+Suburban sales was less than 8000 sold
samcuu@reddit
Even if you don't want the Lexus badge for whatever reason then the Sequoia is basically the same thing. Same platform, same powertrain, etc.
Riparian1150@reddit
This is just simply not true. I’d you’ve ever driven both or worked on both, you know that the differences are very significant.
samcuu@reddit
I suppose they basically still serve the same target demographic who want a full-size body on frame Toyota SUV with the biggest engine option.
AwesomeBantha@reddit
Sequoia: I want the largest Toyota SUV
Land Cruiser wagon: I want the most durable Toyota SUV
I spend a lot of time with Land Cruiser people and lots of them also have domestic full size trucks, Suburbans, 4Runners, etc, but none of them have Sequoias. And quite a few of them spent $90k+ on a used 2020-21 LC 200 instead of getting a new fully loaded Sequoia.
I’m not saying that the LC 300 would be a smash hit, but Sequoia buyers and Land Cruiser buyers are different people.
JJJBLKRose@reddit
Or they don't have Sequoias because they fill similar roles.
badMotorist@reddit
To be fair, the Crown crossover the US got (not Signia) is an abomination that only its mother could love.
MasterofPeridots@reddit
The American consumer decided they want the Cadillac Baby Killer Armored Tank 3000 in all black instead.
IRENE420@reddit
Rav4s are pretty popular. Take away fleet sales and pick up trucks will fall down the list. Americans like crossovers, sedan like mpg, holds more, and doesn’t feel like getting in and out of a kayak.
Drifty_Canadian@reddit
Shhh /r/cars hates hearing that sedans aren't the end all be all.
WetChickenLips@reddit
Nobody says that. This sub circlejerks hatchbacks and wagons way more than sedans.
Drifty_Canadian@reddit
Lol top comment on every single post that even remotely mentions sedans is always about how much everyone misses them and wishes they were made and how they were perfect vehicles.
WetChickenLips@reddit
Hmmm. Not this post. Top comment actually says the opposite.
Drifty_Canadian@reddit
Yeah a sarcastic comment about how every suv is a massive baby killing up armored panzer, totally the opposite.
WetChickenLips@reddit
Not the top comment.
HalfFrozenSpeedos@reddit
MRAP with CROWS will likely appear within a decade.......perhaps with a death race 2000 blade on the front also.....
kyonkun_denwa@reddit
America doesn't like sedans and Canada is too small to bother with.
Fearless_Neat_6654@reddit
Biggest problem we have in Canada is we use the US standards.
We're a country of 40 million, the market is sizeable. If we accepted both EU and US standards, we'd have many more interesting models on offer and a larger export market for the cars we currently make
AwesomeBantha@reddit
I’m fascinated by some of the slight Canadian-US market differences. Why did Canada get the Nissan Micra? Why did Canada get the C-class wagon, and the AMG version, but only the C43 and not the C63? Why is the Golf R priced like a GR Corolla in Canada, but significantly more expensive than the GRC in the US? What about the Pontiac Montana appealed to Canadian buyers so much more than American ones, to the point that GM discontinued the Montana in the US but kept it going in Canada?
I’m really excited to see how the Chinese EVs fare and hope you guys get access to EU vehicles too.
LowSkyOrbit@reddit
The US and the EU standards need to better align. Countries like Mexico are getting the best of both worlds, and if China builds plants in the US or EU you know they will undercut the competition by thousands, much like Korea and Japan did before them.
pdp10@reddit
Differing standards is often part of non-tariff protectionism. North American worker unions like protectionism.
PNF2187@reddit
Even if the Canadian market operated more independently from the US market I doubt we'd actually see any more sedans coming in.
We have very little affinity for the sedans that do exist. Most mainstream compacts do well enough, but outside of that only the Camry and maybe the Model 3 sell in semi-decent quantities, and in recent years we've seen a handful of larger sedans get killed off here before they were let go in the US (Avalon, K5, Legacy).
shloppin@reddit
And the accord sort of just…. Exists. Great looking car with fairly meh sales.
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
It’s also considered too expensive in Mexico and other Latin America, bla bla….
Sedan market is basically dying in anywhere. China is still biggest sedan market, they can get S230 Crown, but more local buyers are moving to SUV and minivan market.
sbcpacker@reddit
I don't really care about the Crown sedan or the Land Cruiser. I'm more mad about not getting the Crown Sport. It's a great looking luxury hot hatch.
04limited@reddit
Lexus LS sales are low they’re pulling them from the US market. A Crown sedan is no different. Non luxury branded luxury cars have never been popular in the North American market. It’s too niche of a product.
jaaagman@reddit
We as enthusiasts may love the idea, but many of us wouldn't actually buy one brand new with our own money. Lexus discontinued the GS and LS (and the IS sometime in the future I suspect) because consumers don't buy them.
SuluTheIguana@reddit
Really wish Toyota would take a chance and sell the Corolla wagon here. We get the hatchback, sedan, and crossover. Why not all 4? If anyone could successfully sell a small, affordable wagon in the states, I think Toyota would be the one.
Astramael@reddit
People would complain that the interior is too basic.
SuluTheIguana@reddit
They already do with the current Corollas we have? But they all still sell very well. Not sure that would be the thing that dissuades people from buying a Corolla wagon....
Drzhivago138@reddit
Like which ones? Full-size sedans are practically dead already.
dsonger20@reddit
I think people forget the Toyota Crown exists as a car in North America.
People forget because they probably would throw a part every time they sell one (they barely sell any).
Hoooooooar@reddit
the most sedans i see on the road in my little corner of WV which is still relatively poor are 1) Nissans sentra/altima/whatevert shitbox (naturally) but 2) Camrys i gotta say are right behind it, and then Kia whatever its called now Ksomething also seeing more n more of em.
Nationally they sell about half a million camrys and corollas.
I think the camry with the sport trim or whatever it is looks great to me imo.
dsonger20@reddit
There’s also the problem with how Toyota is viewed here and the US. People don’t see it as a luxury brand. That’s what Lexus is for.
It’s the same reason the Touareg failed here despite being moderately successful in Europe, and the same reason the Phaeton failed. Both Toyota and VW have different market positions in their respective countries.
VW to us is what Skoda is to Europeans.
TaVar35@reddit
Yeah the arteon was a genuinely cool car. When I saw one in the showroom buying my 6mt Jetta I loved it
But people couldn’t get over the brand even and were obviously going to go the Audi route when given the choice
LowSkyOrbit@reddit
The Arteon was gorgeous, but VW released it too late to the US market and priced it too high. VWoA can't be 2-3 year behind VW Europe and expect a mid-luxury model to do well.
The US market can't do mid-lux brands any more. There's no room in pricing anymore to justify that market position, and I believe brands like VW, Buick, and Mazda are learning the lesson that Ford (Mercury) and Chrysler learned a decade ago, and GM (seemingly forgot with Oldsmobile).
theswellmaker@reddit
KИ
K-BackwardsN is all I see and I can’t stand it
Ecsta@reddit
Not for long I'd bet. I doubt they're selling because anyone who wants a fancy Toyota in North America is going to buy a Lexus.
samcuu@reddit
Its biggest competitor would be the Camry lol.
dsonger20@reddit
The competitor would be the North American Crown.
Anteater_Reasonable@reddit
This article is 3 years old… Americans don’t buy luxury sedans unless they have a luxury badge. This car wouldn’t move more than 5,000 units a year in the US because it wouldn’t appeal to anybody who could afford it. See Volkswagen Arteon for reference.
AwesomeBantha@reddit
I don’t know exactly what’s going on, but I believe Toyota North America sells its vehicles to various regional distributors, who then sell them to dealers. These distributors have some say in what comes to the US market, because they’re in charge of actually placing the orders with Toyota. I believe this is one of the reasons that it’s not possible to actually factory order a Toyota vehicle in the US, even though you can do so in other markets.
This isn’t the reason we don’t get the Crown sedan, or the LC 300, or the Alphard, but there’s an additional step in the process that I don’t think is the case for most other manufacturers.
Aptosauras@reddit
It's this what you mean by traditional Landcruiser?
LandCruiser 70 Series | Single, Dual Cab, Wagon, Troop Carrier | Toyota Australia https://share.google/KRCOX3KC9sXBymN7Y
Great vehicle, popular in rural areas and tradies.
SirLoremIpsum@reddit
He means the 300 series because North America brain has rotted him into thinking it's The One True LandCruiser as opposed to the 250 which isn't a real one (according to yanks).
I doubt he knows the 70 exists!
FangNut@reddit
When thinking about Canada and US. People often talk about sales and regulation etc - which are legit. There is also something that also needs to be taken into considering is the sheer size of these two countries geographically and varying rules and regulations by each state.
It takes a significant scale of sales activity to justify each single product given the logistics and regulatory navigation required and in most cases make it hard for a company to confidently test a product in these markets because it'll also be expensive to do carry out a successful launch.
SirLoremIpsum@reddit
There's no such thing as the traditional Landcruiser.
There are 3 series. Yanks never bought the 100/200 in large numbers so Toyota stopped bringing it over. You get the LX with the exact same drive train... Buy that
Like the numbers were tiny. "What's the reason?"
No one bought them
You never got the 70, so Toyota tried again w the 250.
North America never got the crown and North America doesn't buy large sedans in big numbers.
Yanks buy trucks and SUVs from domestic manufacturers.
Exclusively almost.
"I'm sad vehicles we never bought aren't coming over".
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
Okay we're doing that huh. I'll cover the Crown because about 40 people have explained the LC300 by now.
Why? It's got a similar market position to the Avalon, which didn't do fantastically. Without a V8 or even a V6, there's limited appeal (why do you think the V8 Majesta is imported to AU/NZ so much, or V6 Crowns vs the current i4?)
dsonger20@reddit
The current crown that is literally sold right now also sells very poorly.
Its a full size "luxury" sedan. They barely sell any as is lol.
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
TBF the NA Crown is, to be frank, fugly from stern to stern. From the look of it, it's like someone jacked up a sedan 2 inches and covered it in black paint. OP is right that to me (and I suspect most customers) the JDM Crown looks "godly" (it looks like a slightly nicer Camry, which is fine! I like the current Camry) in comparison. The JP Crown probably wouldn't sell much better, but does at least fix that gaping flaw.
That said, we can kinda guess what happens when you sell a fancy Toyota into an America-like market.
The Crown Majesta sells on the used market because it's a GS460 in stealth camo that's cheaper or the same price, year for year, to a V8 Holden or Ford. There's also a social component; it marks you out as being "in the know", the Majesta generally avoids stereotypes about Crown owners and being allowed within 100m of a school, and having a V8 is a sign of status. The Majesta is a boat, a Crown Athlete of the same era isn't much slower, is close to as nice inside and is inarguably a better performance car, but it doesn't matter: the Majesta has the bigger engine so it sells for more.
Obviously, the used car market isn't identical to the new car market, but it's difficult to escape that expensive Toyota sedans sell a lot better when they have the mark of status in their engine. And the modern Crown really doesn't have that.
Avedas@reddit
JDM Crown sedan will always just be a taxi to me lol
cubs223425@reddit
It's not really "full size" though. It's closer to mid-size models than past full-size ones. It's also not really luxurious. For $50K, a Nightshade will gives you just rear vents, but no rear climate control. Nothing about its looks, performance, or features is particularly luxurious. Even "premium" brands bring more to the table.
It's only somewhat luxurious if you address it from a mainstream/budget segment. Comparing it to other luxury products, its' not as feature-rich, performant, or anything worth wrtigin home about.
StillPissed@reddit
They barely sell any because it’s ugly as hell compared to even a Camry or ES. It doesn’t fit in the market here.
juuceboxx@reddit
I mean we had the GS and the IS which were the closest things to getting a Crown in the US but Americans hardly bought them. That's why the GS has been dead for a few years now and the IS is barely hanging on by a thread.
jrileyy229@reddit
Keep taking Ls??? Does that mean losses? Why wouldn't you just type the word losses?
Exactly what models do you think Toyota is taking losses on???
jokerzwild00@reddit
No they keep taking our LS! Why Toyota wants all of these American V8s is puzzling, but if they steal one more from me they'll be getting a sternly worded letter!
jrileyy229@reddit
That does kind of make some sense... On why it's 60k dollars and why it weighs 3400 pounds being that small... But on the other hand, if it had an LS it would make more than 380hp.
IAmWellBehaved@reddit
While I love both cars, who would actually buy them? The sedan market has deteriorated rapidly so if brands like the TLX or Stinger can't sell in sufficient numbers, there's little reason to believe the (real) Crown would fare much better. And the (real) Land Cruiser was a very, very slow seller for years, with again little reason to believe the current generation would do any better.
Yankee831@reddit
Basically you’re redditor logic is not reality. There’s millions of people with money who want something else and it’s not worth it for Toyota to cater to you thousands or dozens (Reddit).
nefrina@reddit
FalseBuddha@reddit
You mean the mass market doesn't want a doodoo brown, manual sports wagon with no infotainment system, and hand-cranked windows?
Preme2@reddit
This is what I thought about the Audi Q3 sport back. The size looks good, but it’s not being sold in America. Disappointing.
FreeGums@reddit
Wait until you hear Toyota still offers a Diesel 6 speed manual Hilux for sale
Boundish91@reddit
Because people only buy massive SUVs.
Multifaceted-Simp@reddit
That is a good looking sedan
DocPhilMcGraw@reddit
I both agree and disagree with you.
I agree, Toyota took a massive L on the Crown by betting that the Crown crossover would somehow do better than the Avalon it replaced.
For starters, people seem to forget that part of the reason the last gen Avalon did poorly was because of its off-putting exterior design. That massive grille did it no favors whatsoever. The new Crown sedan would have absolutely fixed the biggest issue with the Avalon, but instead Toyota somehow interpreted the sales figures to mean people just wanted a lifted looking sedan instead (except the Crown crossover isn’t even lifted really).
The result? The Crown crossover is selling worse than the Avalon it replaced. Last year, Toyota sold just 12,309 of them. Pretty much every Crown I’ve seen for sale is marked down thousands off MSRP and they still can’t move them.
I disagree though on the traditional Land Cruiser being an L for Toyota. The reality is the Land Cruiser in those markets have a foothold that Toyota didn’t establish in the U.S. market. For example, Australia only got the Jeep Wrangler starting in 1996. By then, Toyota had already established itself as the off road vehicle to purchase. Whereas in the states, Jeep was well ahead of Toyota in off road sales.
I think where Toyota may be somewhat taking an L is by not reintroducing the Scion brand and importing more Japanese made Toyotas that could fit well in a budget brand. Right now due to the T word, it’s cheaper to import from Japan than from Mexico (Nissan’s own CEO basically confirmed as much). There are at least 3 vehicles they could import right now that could make up a new budget subbrand: the Aqua (Prius C), Yaris, and Sienta. They could even call the new brand “Niju” which means 20 in Japanese. Just have each model start at $20k.
PlatinumElement@reddit
There’s a lot to like about the Sienta, I lived with one in Tokyo about half a week and put a lot of km on it in that time. The only major drawback for the North American market is the interior is really cramped for someone over 5’10”. I’m 6’ and had to take frequent breaks at PAs driving it because even with my seat moved back all the way, my left knee was always jammed into the center console, which intrudes into the drivers footwell at an inopportune angle.
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
I think NA Toyota needing to give Crown an independent showroom like Japanese Toyota.
Have been Crown showroom when I in Chiba. I could say it was better than normal showroom.
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
That S230 Crown isn’t available in most world, so you can’t buy it in Europe and OZ too. Toyota just only sells in Japan and China.
Limo sedan market is dying in whole world. Toyota still sells RWD Crown because it still has had a large loyal customer base, it’s considered a halo car in Japan.
Available_Quote_5567@reddit
Safety, emissions, or insufficient market. That simple.
Roar_Intention@reddit
Do they make them LHD? I think that would be a factor.
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
Yes, they do. Toyota has exported S230 Crown with LHD in China.
It isn’t difficult for to make it LHD, as the model is basically a premium Mirai but had hybrid option.
SerialExperimentLean@reddit
American car buyers want a nicer badge than a Toyota if they're spending that much money, so the expensive stuff is all Lexus. Same reason you get Acura and Infiniti when those same models are Honda or Nissan in Japan
Bassracerx@reddit
Why doesnt toyota sell x car in y market? Because toyota can not produce enough cars to fill global demand. They have wait lists world wide for just about every car. Toyota cant simply spin up extra production to sell something stateside. So toyota has to strategize where each car is sold.
SeeminglyUselessData@reddit
The Japanese Crown sedan shares a platform with the LS500, it is way more upmarket. Japan would never give us such a smoking good deal. It would be way too nice for the money.
doerriec@reddit
I keep seeing a Crown driving around Portland. It looks relatively new.
Gcs1110@reddit
They do the same when it comes to VW as well... Just boring ass SUVs
Snazzy21@reddit
This is the last model I'd complain about, unlike the 70 series or the Champ (the latter is probably too base for US), there is no real market for mid-tier sedans. A high spec Camry is good enough, and anyone who wants more will buy a Lexus anyway.
This doesn't make a lot of sense for Toyota to bother, and it makes less sense now than it ever did for the 50+ years it's existed.