How many CPL holders never make $1 from flying?
Posted by Brave_Recognition798@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 60 comments
We all hear the statistic that 80% of PPL students give up, but how many people get CPL certified (or more) and never end up getting a job in the industry?
It's hard to calculate from Official stats since not every PPL holder wants to upgrade, even CPL's to ATPL's wouldn't be a fair comparison because things seem to happen in waves.
Wondering what guestimate percentages people have?
Cougarb@reddit
Anecdotally from talking to my old schools chief flight instructor (Canada) I would say a good 50% of new CPL grads are in a employment limbo where the school is actively telling would be CFI students that there is no job waiting for them upon graduation due to the backlog of trained CFIs with no job.
I would say if that 50% maybe around 20-40% of them end up getting a survey gig or go fly floats. (Again, estimate. But from my circle that rings about true). I’d say the other 60-80% in is pilot purgatory with no clear path forward.
It used to be just “get your CFI” and instruct but that’s not even always a good path forward. Not that those CPLs won’t ever get a job. But they are kinda in limbo for the time being
Brave_Recognition798@reddit (OP)
I was curious because even though I personally know float operators they want at least 100 hour of PIC on floats and nobody is spending another $40k to do that to work a dock lol
FliGirl101@reddit
The trick is if you want the floats path is to get the endorsement early and do all your cpl training time on floats.
Brave_Recognition798@reddit (OP)
Thanks, I'm already done everything though (on wheels) lol and can't get hired
Cougarb@reddit
Lots of ops in NWO don’t require 100 hours floats if your willing to work dock for a season. Hard to separate good operators from ones that will string you along but definitely possible. I had like 5 serious job offers this year with 250 hours.
Trick is timing (floats hire DEC-FEB) and experience outside of aviation that shows hard work. (I had a welding background) and then just pure numbers. I applied to like 400 places. Granted, there is still a bit of luck involved for sure but it’s probably the only reasonable thing you’ll get outside of networking and CFI
NoConcentrate9116@reddit
For what it’s worth, I don’t know what working docks is like or what it pays, but I was a military pilot and hiring was so bad last year that I worked the ramp for a regional for six months just to get my foot in the door. It worked, fly for the same regional now.
I think the field is rewarding tenacity a bit and those willing to show what they’re willing to do to work or set themselves apart.
Brave_Recognition798@reddit (OP)
Wish we had that in Canada
Cougarb@reddit
We do have that in Canada. We have no 1500hr requirement.
The ramp-right seat jobs are still around just are competitive to get into now
Brave_Recognition798@reddit (OP)
They have a 2 year plus wait now, imagine where your skills would be after that long without flying
Cougarb@reddit
You aren’t flying right now anyways. Better to start working now and get some industry contacts. You could still apply to flying jobs while working ramp lol
Brave_Recognition798@reddit (OP)
That’s fair but 2 years is a crazy commitment just to get a min wage flying job in the end.
Feel like it would be smarter to keep current and work your day job till things pick up?
NoConcentrate9116@reddit
Do you have a crystal ball to know when things will pick up? Post Covid was an anomaly. Things have gone more back to normal.
Brave_Recognition798@reddit (OP)
I’m honestly kind of afraid they’ll slow down even more with the oil situation.
Personally, I started training in 2019 and I was hoping that would be the new normal. You’d have to wait around for stuff, but it was months not years.
kaoandy1125@reddit
He’s not willing to do any of this. Doesn’t want to go north and make shit pay since he makes 100k now, also doesn’t want to get his instructor rating because there’s absolutely no instructor job apparently.
flyingkea@reddit
Even get your CFI and instruct has never been a sure path - my old flight school never guaranteed jobs. This was NZ btw, and I ended up moving islands to get my first job.
When that went very south (due to very bad working conditions caused by glut of pilots trained) I ended up moving overseas to continue my career. This was the 2010s.
It’s a constant boom/bust cycle, and I think a lot of new graduates just don’t have the time in the industry to see it.
MeatServo1@reddit
There’s a nonzero number of military pilots who can get commercial pilot certs by filling out some paperwork and getting credit for their military training that do other things and never fly as a civilian.
isellshit@reddit
I got my CPL for education and entertainment when I was doing my MEI
I "get paid" every time I have to pay an insurance premium as I get a significant discount for having the CPL.
So far have never flown with a paying passenger or cargo...
weaselkeeper@reddit
I grew up restoring and flying warbirds and needed the ratings. So after 6 years as a F-4E/G and F-15E Crew Chief I learned to fly at my grandfathers hangars in Luscombe 8E and J3 Cub and worked my way up to fighters and bombers, did my multi in a Beech 18/AT-11, never a CFI, never flown for an airline or cargo. Flying is a passion and part of my job, maybe 10% as part of a restoration test flying but weekend airshow flying pay just covers operating costs. I know my route through aviation isn’t the usual.
Outrageous-Many-2928@reddit
Got my CPL to fly jumpers and tow gliders as a volunteer pilot. 1000’s of hours of free flying in Cessna 180, Beaver and Pawnee’s. I was a skydiver before getting my PPL/CPL and have a CPL for gliders too. Never paid a penny. That would have made it work, with a boss and schedule. Nope!
Brave_Recognition798@reddit (OP)
How many hours a season? I looked at my local clubs and they said if you’re there 6 days a week expect like 25 hours a season
Outrageous-Many-2928@reddit
It really comes down to the type airplanes the drop zone fly’s, what attitudes they drop at and how much business they have. We had three C180’s and a Beaver. On a busy weekend, i’d fly 25 loads. 12 hours give or take. Towing gliders when max altitude is 3000’ AGL. Not very many hours.
Bayou38@reddit
Take the number of cpl and subtract it from atp and there’s your answer. Of course it will be wrong though. 50% of marriages end in divorce when the real number is actually 38%. Best of luck.
Brave_Recognition798@reddit (OP)
I wrote right in my post that's not a fair comparison on my mind since it's always a moving number.
Bayou38@reddit
If you’re flying your plane for “small trips”, it’s likely infringing on part 135 and unless you have a charter cert, I’d delete this entirely and stop asking for the FAA to get involved. You asking about pilot certification and giving us operator certification. Bad news. Seriously.
Brave_Recognition798@reddit (OP)
Bayou38@reddit
Good luck. 👍🍀
Brave_Recognition798@reddit (OP)
Thanks! But if it wasn’t clear I’m not doing anything illegal or even flying for the past year
Different_Show7488@reddit
You don’t need to have an ATP to make money…
Flimsy-Ad-858@reddit
With very limited exceptions, you need an ATP to make a comfortable living wage with an airplane.
Bayou38@reddit
Correct answer.
Prof_Slappopotamus@reddit
Total CPL - (Total ATP + Total CFI). It won't be totally accurate without doing a deep dive into every single one of them to verify who holds both, but I'm sure there's an equation out there that would get you a little closer.
No_Pattern_2190@reddit
Since you can get a commercial license without a FAA check-ride through military equivalency, there’s probably quite a few former mil aviators who checked that box but didn’t continue flying after their service.
appenz@reddit
I plan to never make $1 from flying.
ybitz@reddit
You fly a pc-12 for personal use?
appenz@reddit
Yes. Both business and leisure.
FlyingScot1050@reddit
I guess I don't quite qualify since I do make some amount of money teaching, but I got my CPL and CFI with no intent of making the mad dash to 1500.
I greatly enjoy teaching, and being able to offer tailwheel and spin instruction helps subsidize the cost of ownership (or at least bring it down from Dave Ramsey levels of shame to a garden variety hobby spend).
theboomvang@reddit
I know lots of pilots that fly strictly as a hobby but got their CPL for funzies. Because of this I think it would be virtually impossible to separate out the career track people that gave up vs those that intended to get paid.
shittyvfxartist@reddit
Sometimes funzies, but also sometimes getting a CPL and IR is a nice insurance discount too if you’re an owner!
I’m at hours for my CPL, so I’m planning on getting both done as a recreational flyer once I have the cash. I’d love a career change, but it’s going to take me a decade to work my debts down enough. By that point, who knows!
hmasing@reddit
That's me! It was another rating to knock out, and made me a better pilot. PLUS when I flash my certificate in the clear front window of my wallet I can say that I am a COMMERCIAL PILOT.
SaratogaFlyer@reddit
it’s easy... in my area at least: career track people identify themselves as such on the radio.
Brave_Recognition798@reddit (OP)
Yeah I know there won't be official numbers, but occasionally I'll see people who did flight school with friends or uni a university program say only 1 or 2 people are still in the industry X years later
AvailableAd4131@reddit
I mean it’s really is impossible to get even an accurate ballpark number, everyone will probably have a different estimate based on people they knew no longer in the game etc.
dopexile@reddit
Some people get CPL because it can lower insurance premiums, so I don't think OP's question reflects what they are really trying to figure out regarding career individuals.
Brave_Recognition798@reddit (OP)
I'd still like to hear these if they're willing to share
AvailableAd4131@reddit
Yeah definitely, I’d say like 40% of people I know who went into flight training with the intent of making it a career are flying commercially not totally sure the number that got their CPL though
Simple_Match_1815@reddit
Bro just saw the certificate totals metric. Lol
AWACS_Bandog@reddit
My guess is, Look at the number of people with their CPL only (No CFI/ATP), have had the rating for a few years, and then be conservative and say 50% of that number. thats probably guys who either quit after CPL or decided mid CFI it wasn't for them. Or ones who got it to save on Insurance or something.
DifficultCourt1525@reddit
I got my CPL after the 2008-09 recession. For reference, Air Canada starting pay was about 38k back then and it took about 8-10 years to get there. I loved flying but was running out of money for the IFR and flight instructing ticket. It didn’t seem worth another 8years of grinding So I finished my CPL and moved on with life, eventually ending up in ATC.
Credit to all who do make it! Not an easy road.
Kingturle@reddit
Idk about how many people give up after getting commercial but all I got all the way through commercial multi before going a different path. I got done right during the layoffs from covid and needed to find a way to make money and found other work. For me that turned out to be more lucrative than switching back to piloting so flying is just a hobby for me now. I fly my own plane on the weekends and for small trips. I knew about 8 other pilots on the same track as me and only 2 actually fly commercial now.
Biker1124@reddit
Plus commercial is mostly just a time requirement. Many people realize oh hey I hit 250 let me get my flight review done with a commercial checkride.
Big_Assignment5949@reddit
Brother, you either stress way too much about BFRs or way to little about checkrides. Kinda impressive that they feel the same to you.
Kingturle@reddit
Yeah I see a lot of that myself too. I will say that for those that really want to make it work and just have the true desire to fly for a living it’s always possible. You just push hard enough for long enough and you can get there.
Small_Chicken1085@reddit
What.
Big_Assignment5949@reddit
The fact that it influences insurances rates means that people are incentivized to get it, even if they never use it. Not even sure i could hazard a guess.
Potential_Bag_7893@reddit
I would think CFI to ATP would be a good approximation. Particularly if you could filter CFI initial issuance by age (say, under 40) to differentiate from older pilots doing BFRs, etc. for their buddies.
Salt-Cold1056@reddit
Lots of GA CFI's with other career's exist. That is not zero dollars earned but it is not for the money either.
Wandrews123@reddit
Year and a half for me - don’t know if I’d call that never.
Brave_Recognition798@reddit (OP)
Sorry to hear man!
ghjm@reddit
I don't have a CPL yet but I'm planning on getting one because it will make my insurance rates go down, and maybe even make me a safer pilot. I don't expect to ever take a job as a commercial pilot because I already make senior captain money as a software developer.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
We all hear the statistic that 80% of PPL students give up, but how many people get CPL certified (or more) and never end up getting a job in the industry?
It's hard to calculate from Official stats since not every PPL holder wants to upgrade, even CPL's to ATPL's wouldn't be a fair comparison because things seem to happen in waves.
Wondering what guestimate percentages people have?
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