Real cause why war started in Yugoslavia?
Posted by Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 133 comments
Words "cause" and "reason" are completely different words but they are used in same thinking almost all time without thinking a deep meaning of them. Words that are even learned in elementary school their meaning in Balkan states, as far as I can see majority of people doesn't know difference, they forgot or don't even care. Reason of WWI is Sarajevo assassination, cause is something completely different.
So the cause of war in Yugoslavia was always on my mind. Why? When I was younger I asked elders like they survive fight in that s*** maybe they can give me answer, but through the years I almost always got same answer without too much explanation:"they hate us".... When I get older I started to ask people on different sides, but the desire to say something was minimal, same on all sides "they hate us","America bad", "Turkiye bad","Russia bad" etc...but when I started to ask questions the talk almost in every case somehow switch to something else. Asked people on all sides in military, generals, politicians, then I realize they have no clue about cause, all their thinking was about "reason" "killing of Serbian groom" "football match in Zagreb" "Great Serbia" etc. I really don't care about "reason" I care about cause and I now know that people generally in ex Yugoslavia doesn't have a clue what is the cause of the war.
So I started to explore but not too much just casual from time to time. I discovered this link .
It is Michael Parenti the USA and war in Yugoslavia. He is political scientist, historian activist, PHD at Yale. So he is well educated man. I watched video couple years ago and I didn't have same stance on all he said I even rejected many of his stances, but I started to dig some things he said. Interesting thing that got me thinking and searching more is law that was passed in US Congress by President Bush in 1990, and here is the act he is talking about. ti is on 27- 29 minute. So US is paying new elected "democratic" countries inside Yugoslavia. But this money is not possible to be given to whole Yugoslavia. It is like you are paying guerilla fighters in foreign country(we saw ISIS and Kurds etc.). Pattern is always the same, all wars start with big depression, economy fail people get poor and you burn country from inside. WW1 happened WW2 same reasons money and power. Both have big times of great depression before war started. Same pattern was used in Venezuela richest country with oil they stop them exporting oil crushing their economy, then people get mad riots etc on the end you have to knee to them. Iran same pattern, only difference is Iranian people were educated enough especially their woman so they saw external enemy is bigger than internal problems. In Yugoslavia economy was broken easily with hyperinflation, that is first step so people get mad, but it took almost 10 years to make them that mad to start war. And the way they do it is oldest trick in the book divide and conquer! Same principle is used in Venezuela, tried in Iran, look at south America always same pattern. Now we have small countries that have nothing on their own. Croatia was sold, Bosnia is selling everything, Serbia is still holding but for how long etc.
My stance on question that I post is the cause for the war is money and power. Neo liberal economy where they can come to your country buy everything (mines, woods, water etc) exploit your workers and leave dry land, on the other hand it is not easy for you to buy things in their states. EU also had interest in this, because Yugoslavia was strong country on their borders it was much easier to control small countries than single one etc. If you don't believe me you have examples of couple moths where they openly said Venezuela and Iran, give me your OIL! Today our politicians work for them, they don't have interest in our people to live better, all their children are studying aboard. They are here to do agenda, and if you do not do like they said first they send you jackal aka economic hitman, then if you don't listen there are other methods to remove you.
Please don't write me about genocide, war crimes and other things that all came later, I don't want to discuss that, make different post about it. This is only what you think what is cause of war in Yugoslavia with proofs of course :)
buh-ofirko@reddit
You can find the 1971 Nixon's move and OPECs oil cartel that caused economic stress on Yugoslavia, where each republic wasn't happy to pay into common accounts. But yeah, the back then political leadership Jović/Milošević decided to take what they could by force and used YPA ( Kadijević) to kick no-Serbs out of federation.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
so the cause of Yugoslavia war is economic stress?
buh-ofirko@reddit
My point is that it's not a single cause that lead to war but very messy combination of causes. Economic stress was like a environmenal catalyst (your OP points out that). But for Yugoslav armed conflicts it's more like a multivariable regression ( if you know what I mean): Y = B0 + B1(Collapse_of_Communism) + B2(Economic_Crisis) + B3(Political_Instability * YPA_Influence) + Error
You can even extend it with other variables...
trisul-108@reddit
Nah. The reasons were completely internal to Yugoslavia.
Bush Sr. was terrified about the breakup of Yugoslavia because there was a theory that this would be a fall of dominos leading to the breakup of the Soviet Union and thousands of nuclear warheads ending up in failed ex-Soviet states. US interests were to maintain status quo.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
Soviet Union break anyway and NW did not happen. But USA was there in the meantime pumping money to Ukraine (from 90') again that exploded 30 years latter, same pattern like in Yugoslavia. If SU didn't break in that time I think YU split would be completely different. But that is for different topic.
So you think cause was internal? Fine what internal?
deaddyfreddy@reddit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_Kiev_speech
The only reason for the war is Russia's imperialistic ambitions.
see the recent history:
2003: Tuzla Island conflict
2008: Bucharest NATO summit, where Putin called Ukraine "not even a proper country" threatening that Russia might begin the invasion
2008: invasion of Georgia (not related to Ukraine directly, but worth mentioning)
(no later than) 2009: FSB (russian security service) begins to infiltrate agents into Ukraine, fund separatist organizations, and organize training for militants on its territory.
2014: Crimea annexation, FSB agents seize Slavyansk and bring people from Russia to pro-Russian rallies in Ukraine. Lter in summer regular Russian armed forces invade Donbas.
2022: full-scale invasion
so
it's always Russia
Russia lies all the time
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
you write off topic, what is cause of YU war Russia imperialistic ambitions?
deaddyfreddy@reddit
you did it first, I was just addressing your false statements
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
you are off topic i didn't start to talk but that EU bot started to talk about Soviet Union that have nothing to do with war in Yugoslavia. Also money was pumped in Ukraine after the break of Soviet Union.
deaddyfreddy@reddit
i dont think it's a bad thing
trisul-108@reddit
For sure, but Bush could not know this ahead of time. For the US, that was the big danger, they cared very little about Yugoslavia in itself ... small fish, compared to the Soviet stockpile of nukes. That was the real story for the US, not exploitation of ex-Yugoslav mini-states.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
"The internal conflict was the clash of democratization in Slovenia and Croatia with authoritarianism in Serbia." I am glad you point on countries that used USA fond that is in their law. So you just admitted that foreign money influence war in Yugoslavia -
-"Prohibits, six months after this Act's enactment, the expenditure of funds made available pursuant to this Act to provide assistance to Yugoslavia. Directs the Secretary of the Treasury to instruct the U.S. executive directors to international financial institutions to oppose any assistance to Yugoslavia. Exempts from such prohibition assistance to support democratic parties or movements and emergency and humanitarian assistance. Makes such prohibition inapplicable if: (1) all the individual republics of Yugoslavia have held free and fair elections and are not engaged in a pattern of human rights violations; or (2) the Secretary of State certifies that Yugoslavia is making significant strides toward complying with the Helsinki Accords and is encouraging any republic which has not held free and fair elections to do so."
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
Who exploit you Balkan states now days?
trisul-108@reddit
Those that are part of the EU are not being exploited. The rest are exploited by their corrupt governments.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
Croatia is first exploited, their biggest conglomerate Agrokor was sold by who? Yes Andrej Plenkovic and HDZ (Croatian DEMOCRATIC union). They are paid by foreign money to do what they were told to. Also EU ask for democracy when it need it but don't obey to laws. There were ex president of Croatia Tudzman law that is called the fort, to be part of any union there must be more than 60 % of people on vote with 51% of vote for. Because They know this numbers is impossible to achieve, they made vote in witch more than 51% voted for but I think only 30% people voted. That is not democracy that is opposite of it. I also don't mind Croatia went in EU I am for it but it is exploited heavily same like other ex Yu countries. So conclusion is divide and conquer. But again this went off from topic what is the cause of Yugoslavia wars?
trisul-108@reddit
Sure, corruption in government. That does not mean "foreign exploitation", it is corruption. That is why the ex leader of the HDZ and government spend 10 years in prison.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
spinning the truth, he went to prison because of money not because he didn't obey Croatian law. Eu didn't follow the Croatian law and Croatian insiders paid by foreign money also didn't follow the law, that is why with only 30% of votes country went to EU. That is not democracy.
trisul-108@reddit
He went to prison for corruption, abuse of position and war profiting.
One_more_drink_@reddit
Don't waste your time, people like him have this view where everything must have some kind of complicated explanation as if life was written like a police novel. Instead of seeing human society as interconnected links, where it takes a few power hungry and greedy to make everything fall down.
AstropathicRelay@reddit
Its no accident that the collapse didn't happen right after Titos death but instead Berlin Wall had to fall in order for things to truly start unraveling. Geopolitically Yugoslavia existing no longer served a strategic purpose so the funds that used to come from the west were no longer arriving and were heavily conditioned. A bunch of smaller puppet states is much preferable . It also failed to become something more like Germany or Italy because the state formation process simply started too late with various internal Identities already formed and entrenched (100 years too late) .
trisul-108@reddit
This is just Yugoslavs seeking to blame others for what they have done. The US did not want Yugoslavia broken apart because they feared a domino effect going to the Soviet Union leaving nuclear warheads spread across multiple failed states ... they did not give a shit about Yugoslavia and "small states they can influence". This is just fantasy.
Europe, on the other hand, wanted the whole of Yugoslavia to become an EU member and were willing to finance it at the time.
Yugoslavia broke apart for internal reasons, not because of outside interests. When it became clear that the breakup cannot be prevented, outside interests reacted.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
trust me bro, are you on agenda or something?
trisul-108@reddit
I think you are.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
You are agenda EU bot you went in to every comment no single argument about topic. Also mods are on your EU bot side and doesn't want to remove pushing agenda.
AstropathicRelay@reddit
Yugoslavia being formed at the end of WW1 , accident , internal will of the people . Yugoslavia breaking up in the middle of WW2 another accident (internal will of the people) . Yugoslavia forming at the end of WW2 and start of the cold war another accident ( internal will of the people once more). Yugoslavia breaking at the end of the Cold War another accident purely caused by internal processes.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
So you then align with Paretnti stance, money was used to crash it and easier to control little puppet states?
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
croatian spring kinda opened the door for the later dissolution.
most demands of the ousted leadership were later adopted, ushering in a form of federalism that contributed to the subsequent breakup of Yugoslavia.
SSsevenseas@reddit
They took Loans and then could not repay, all done according to plan. All are better off other than Serbia.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
who cares ? this was not the question and dept was no problem at all if you have basic economic understanding. also guess what else happened in 1970.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970s_energy_crisis
from an economic standpoint a big problem was that people kept on rising their pay with no production. and i see how well of Croatia is, so well off that the average Croat stays home till 33.4 Years with his parents.
SSsevenseas@reddit
Your view. Choose Happy.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
Not my view, that’s data.
SSsevenseas@reddit
Data says a Bumble Bee should not be able to fly but it can. Sunny and 22 in Dubrovnik. Stay Happy
alpidzonka@reddit
I think he's mostly good on the USSR and mostly bad on the Yugoslav Wars.
Yeah except people who competed in these elections in Yugoslavia weren't guerilla fighters, and no part of this law says separatists even have to win. You think the USA would be unhappy if Ante Marković got 80% in all the republics?
Those are world wars and on those you might be correct
Now it seems like you're talking about 5 October 2000 and not the wars
Our leadership could have just, you know, not been listening to the IMF. Saying the IMF tricked you into too much austerity is like idk, what's next, you sent all your money to the Nigerian prince in your spam folder. Granted, then they would have actually been far more likely to wage economic warfare on Yugoslavia, I don't think they were really doing that.
I don't think these countries will balkanize, especially not soon
What did Serbia not sell exactly? I'm thinking telco, media and arms, which pretty much tells you everything you need to know about Serbia. Banking and energy are long gone
Why is this a cause for the war exactly? You think this didn't happen in the former Warsaw Pact states, none of which fell apart in a war? I mean it's true that this happens, I just don't think it's the cause of the war.
I don't think they were that unified on this question. Germany for sure but yeah
Well, we sold our oil to Russia, and now we're kind of making them sell our oil to Hungary because the US said so. So the EU must have been playing a very long game if that's the cause of the wars
You'd hear people saying this in the 80s and they weren't even completely wrong
Idk what this has to do with Milošević arming separatists in Croatia and Bosnia, and Tuđman arming his own separatists in Bosnia. He could have refused foreign investors and just not done any of that. Oh well
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
"Yeah except people who competed in these elections in Yugoslavia weren't guerilla fighters, and no part of this law says separatists even have to win" maybe not guerilla fighters but some kind of separatism was fell in the air
I am glad you red everything and put your view on it
On the end what do you think its cause of the war in Yugoslavia?
"Idk what this has to do with Milošević arming separatists in Croatia and Bosnia, and Tuđman arming his own separatists in Bosnia. He could have refused foreign investors and just not done any of that. Oh well" its not about Milosevic but in general all these politicians before and after the war.
alpidzonka@reddit
Yeah, separatism that could have been resolved diplomatically. The breakup of this country didn't necessitate a war, not to mention war crimes etc.
I don't have one master cause, but I'll give some intuitions I think are important.
I'd say that the same degeneration of party elites, that led to the Soviet political system producing Gorbachev and the Chinese system producing Deng, is the same degeneration that leads to what you mentioned - the pro-IMF policy in the 80s under Planinc and Kraigher, the detached leadership focused on profits and entering the world market, with the addition that often their own children would study abroad and so on. Milošević and Stambolić both come from this world, at the time a term for this part of the nomenclatura was "tehnomenadžeri".
Now, this rather explains the death of self-management under Milošević. It doesn't give you the cause of the war itself, which included a serious project of arming paramilitaries, psyoping the pop-cultural zeitgeist into rabid nationalism etc. "They became too managerial" doesn't begin to explain that. So I guess there, my intuition becomes a bit more psychological than structural/economic. Long story short, this was a banker, and part of a highly neoliberalized new cohort of communist leaders, who believed greed is good and might makes right. As in business, so in statecraft. But again, take this as a vague intuition.
The politicians after the war didn't cause the war. The politicians before him, well, see above.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
Well I think we are on same page. Although I would like to hear something else but bots from EU doesn't allow that, they just spread agenda without single proof on this topic. Anyway politicians after the war didn't cause the war because they don't have opportunity like degeneration of party elites ( :D ) . That doesn't mean they doesn't follow international agenda and IMF funding etc. Its the same guys from 80 and 90 that still rule just every in his yard. Their children study abroad abroad etc. If we took cause of the war and this state of today without part of war witch is really bad part we can clearly see why war (who started it) and who benefit from it. I mean its on plain sight, but people turn blind eye when emotions kick in (witch we also have to take in factor because people suffer really bad). Maybe future generations will be cold head and could realize what happen and where all this goes before we got doomed.
alpidzonka@reddit
Absolutely, agreed
Careful-Evening-5187@reddit
That's a hell of a prompt....
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
yea propmpt written by me from my head, what do you think its cause of war in Yugoslavia, but please bring arguments I want constructive talk not agendas and emotional reply.
Sanguine_Caesar@reddit
>It is Michael Parenti the USA and war in Yugoslavia. He is political scientist, historian activist, PHD at Yale. So he is well educated man.
He is also a genocide denialist. Nothing more needs to be said.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
You are right, you can also minimize all his speech, I think he even deny in video that I post, but lets put that a side what he was, tell me what do you think what is cause of war in Yugoslavia, try not be emotional and bring some arguments, forget what he said. This is not about Parenti, this is about truth. And I think that truth is hidden from eyes of the people and warped in false flag operation.
TheEagle74m@reddit
I believe it started in 1981 Kosovo students protest, to top it off 1989 (I think it was) when Serbia removed Kosovo’s autonomy. Milosevic’s speech in Gazimestan Kosovo was pretty much turning point that Serbia will take over all regions populated by Serbs. Nationalism 101.
Che_Varack@reddit
And not the 1974. constitution that only split Serbia apart, but kept all the other republics intact?
TheEagle74m@reddit
Even before 1974 Kosovo was a province, but didn’t have executive powers as in 1974.
Che_Varack@reddit
Even before 1974. parts of the republic had provinces and regions. Only Serbia got spliced. Why is that?
TheEagle74m@reddit
Maybe because Kosovo was a Vilayet* under Ottomans for long time and there were close to 2 millions Albanians living there. 🤫
Che_Varack@reddit
Realistically, million and a half, but still much more then what Montenegro had. But there were also standard regions of Croatia, still the constitution left it intact. It's only natural to ask yourself why is that.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
this was obviously demanded by serbian extremists to set the stage for further war /s
cartman calls this move the serbian jewish double bluff in south park.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
sad part is Milosevic was USA bank man :(
PavelKringa55@reddit
I'd argue that after ww1 Serbia lacked the capacity to integrate areas that it got to control. Bit of way more than it could swallow. They also had no good plan. They didn't try to turn everyone into Serbs, but they didn't really plan to have everyone equal and a democracy, it was a kingdom.
From then onwards there was less and less optimism for a single south Slavic state. There was conflict and the only way one state could exist was through the power of repression. As repression declined through the time, there was more and more voices for separate national states.
Yugoslavia did not need external agents to break apart, it had a tendency to break apart on it's own. The tragedy is that instead of doing it peacefully, like Czechia and Slovakia, Yugoslavia broke up with violence.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
So you think cause is lack of democracy? And it have roots far before Yugoslavia formed. Interesting is that only voices to separate national states comes mostly from Croatia and Slovenia. Country that suffered the most was Bosnia but in same time people think positive about exYu also that was only country that was in surplus, it exported more than imported before war. So it again went to money and economy. People get mad when they don't have money and looking to blame somebody in this case exYu.
PavelKringa55@reddit
I didn't say the cause of Yu breakup is lack of democracy, but that it was a conglomerate destined to fail since it's inception.
In 1918 when first Yugoslavia (Kingdom of SHS) was formed you had Slovenia with half a population of Croatia, but same GDP, then Croatia, with half a population of Serbia, but same GDP and finally Serbia, that was supposed to lead, but got out of ww1 badly mauled and backward economically compared to Slovenia and Croatia. This remained similar until the breakup of 1991.
It was never a union of equals, but Serbia was dominating the army and the police. If you were not Serbian, your chances of career there were slim.
Slovenes and Croats were led by "Illyrian" ideas that were kind-of pan-Slavic, thinking that a country of Slavic nations will be just and equal and great. But it was worse oppression that K.u.K. and it was a union with much poorer countries that wanted to dominate. That never worked out well. At the very start the reaction of Serbian gendarmes was that they'd beat some Croatian politicians to death, in the night. Which created resentment on Croatian side and eventually led to Serb king being assassinated. Not very idyllic, right?
Bosnia was a bit separate story, it was newly liberated from centuries of Ottoman rule and had many Islamized people along with a significant portion of Serbs and Croats.
As someone that lived through it I'd say that the main cause of 1991 secession was that Slovenia and Croatia refused to return to a Serb-dominated situation. And this is what Milosevic was going for.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
yep Alexander fucked that one up for serbs aswell but can you tell me what Serb domination looked like for Croats and Slovenes in Yugoslavia V1 ?
Quick Facts from Brinannica
Continuing his efforts to unify his subjects, Alexander changed the name of the country to Yugoslavia (October 3, 1929), outlawed all political parties based on ethnic, religious, or regional distinctions, reorganized the state administratively, and standardized legal systems, school curricula, and national holidays. He also tried to relieve the peasantry’s financial difficulties, eased relations with Bulgaria (1933), and engaged Yugoslavia in the Little Entente (with Czechoslovakia and Romania) and the Balkan Entente, an alliance with Greece, Turkey, and Romania (1934).
In the process Alexander created a police state that required military support for survival. When a new constitution was promulgated (September 3, 1931), the dictatorship was, in effect, given a legal foundation. Although Alexander’s acts were at first well received, demands for a return to democratic forms intensified by 1932, when a major economic crisis resulting from the worldwide depression added to political dissatisfaction. As a result, Alexander seriously considered restoring a parliamentary form of government, but, before he was able to do so, he was assassinated while making a state visit to France. The assassin was identified as Vlado Chernozemski, an agent of the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization. The Ustaša, a Croatian separatist group, also was implicated in the plot.
i am asking genuinenly because some people wanna portray Yugoslavia v1 as some serbian supremacist state wich couldnt be further from the truth.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
you went before ww2 it is different state, I am talking about real Yugoslavia from 45 to 90'
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
both are very much real and my question was just in the context of his comment. Ive asked this many times in what sense the average Croats/Slovenes were "discriminated" or "dominated" but never got a real response.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
they were not, beauty of that state is everybody were same. But that is different topic. My question is really difficult to be answered, I have answer but I wont say that is right one, that is the reason I post it here to see is there other argument views but looks like people get emotional on this topic. Same answers like from the people I talk to no critical thinking no arguments just hate... And I am 100% sure cause of the war isn't because somebody hate somebody. Also some bots spam, i have feeling here is not any better than in real world.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
It’s certainly more as money and power
You have to understand the unresolved traumas and build up tensions between the ethnic groups that were never resolved.
Don’t be so gullible
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
I am not, I understand people have traumas and everything around that. That is why I wrote I don't want to talk about war but what cause it, people didn't even read text or saw laws that USA bring. I guess it is really difficult to not be emotional on this topic. I am also sure it was power and money that started that war, everything that came later was just oil on fire. Sad truth is USA is still doing same shit all over the world by same pattern.
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
you take away responsibility of the people who were in charge (who abused the unresolved traumas) and the people who were acting upon it.
most of them arent even resolved by now.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
I am sorry if I do that, that was not my intention. Yes I was trying to divide this in small chunks it was easier to see whole picture. But when you said this, what do you think who is the worse guy, the general that order crime/genocide, or the soldier that obey the order? In most cases I think general is worse and deserve bigger sentence because in many cases they exploit soldiers and make then do even things they don't want to. I never saw single general or the the guy that give orders in war to have repented of his deeds in court, on the other hand I saw soldiers I felt sorry for them when I saw them how they cry in court. Why I am bringing this, this is why I think more responsibility was on people that started war and was cause of it than the ones that done crimes, because ones that done crimes were in most cases brainwashed, misinformed, and this topic is perfect example of it. This being said that doesn't mean they are not guilty. I watched but I cant find Drazen Erdemovic Croat that executed civilians in genocide in Srebrenica by orders of Mladic. He was crying like baby, because he was witness and directly involved in execution Mladic was convicted to life in prison. But again we went away from topic.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
We are talking on Yugoslavia after ww2 it was completely different than before. Your whole post finished at Serbian dominated situation... What about spiting Bosnia in half in Karadjordjevo where Tudzman and Milosevic put the plot? But that is all on ending, what is the real cause of being in that situation that you want to go outside your country?
_Botko_@reddit
I fully agree with you. King had a plan to create Yugoslav ethnicity, which was rejected by all other ethnicities. Neither Serbs, nor Croats, nor Slovenes wanted to sacrifice to create that new ethnicity. Every ethnicity felt like they are the ones that sacrificed the most. Serbs by using latin letters, Croats and other ethnicities by not having a equal saying in country politics as capitol was in Belgrade.
PavelKringa55@reddit
AFAIK there were (few) people in SFRJ that listed ethnicity as "Yugoslav".
_Botko_@reddit
There were, and there still are. Unfortunately the loudest one was the nationalists focusing on differences instead of similarities.
No_Designer_8203@reddit
All true. Parenti explained it well. It's now obvious what happened.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
I don't think all is truth Parenti said, but that thing with pumping money and putting you in debt slavery was true 100% still happening today.
trisul-108@reddit
Yugoslav debt was tiny, compared to current standards. The issue is what was done with the money, not pumping money.
It's like Greece. EU membership allowed then access to loads of cheap money. They used to fuel an oversize public sector while delegation after delegation told them to invest in making their economy more competitive ... Greece refused and got into trouble, and then blame "pumping money" for it.
Yugoslavia over-invested in all the wrong things.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
yes but hyperinflation(one of the biggest in history) happened before war, maybe debt was tiny but it influence in Yu economy was enormous. Point is money was used as leverage to destabilize country and that will be used as catalyst for later clashes.
trisul-108@reddit
No, mismanagement was destabilising the country. While hyperinflation was rampant, Serbia was going for authoritarianism while Slovenia and Croatia were seeking democratisation.
PM Markovic proposed economic reforms and entry into the EU which would have made Yugoslavia a rich and powerful country. It was opposed and defeated by Serbian authoritarianism.
This is not outside forces leveraging debt. This is internal divisions preventing any solution of the problem. The West wanted united Yugoslavia in the EU, not economic breakup.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
"Slovenia and Croatia were seeking democratisation."
Exactly what professor is speaking- "Prohibits, six months after this Act's enactment, the expenditure of funds made available pursuant to this Act to provide assistance to Yugoslavia. Directs the Secretary of the Treasury to instruct the U.S. executive directors to international financial institutions to oppose any assistance to Yugoslavia. Exempts from such prohibition assistance to support democratic parties or movements and emergency and humanitarian assistance. Makes such prohibition inapplicable if: (1) all the individual republics of Yugoslavia have held free and fair elections and are not engaged in a pattern of human rights violations; or (2) the Secretary of State certifies that Yugoslavia is making significant strides toward complying with the Helsinki Accords and is encouraging any republic which has not held free and fair elections to do so."
Pumped up money so YU dissolve on their own, then westerners just lean back and watch!
I do agree about mismanagement but that was all planned to blame somebody.
"The West wanted united Yugoslavia in the EU, not economic breakup." totally not true. Their neo liberal economic system could not penetrate ex Yu so they needed to separate it to smaller chunks then buy it.
trisul-108@reddit
These were small fish, the neo liberal economic system was after much larger fish. And the entry of Yugoslavia into the EU would provide a thousand times more benefit than war, breakup and rebuild.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
oh yea why they don't put all countries in EU if it is like that? Small fish or not it was important fish. I do agree it would provide more benefits than war, but system did not match western neo liberal economy. They do not rebuild nothing, people do, they are on Balkans just to exploit it just like in past other monarchies and empires does.
I like how you jump over whole paid democracy USA law :D
trisul-108@reddit
Because those countries are refusing to implement the democracy, rule of law and human rights that are necessary for them to be part of the EU.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
exactly implement the democracy so we now see the culprit countries in ex Yu countries that were funded for democracy system from outside Yu.
trisul-108@reddit
There were many indigenous democratisation drives that were brutally killed by the communists in previous eras. They ran out of steam and people succeeded.
The EU is based on freedom, democracy, rule of law and human rights not because those are inventions, but because those match fundamental aspirations of humankind.
You are claiming that the rise of democracy is proof that it was financed by countries that promoted democracy and not indigenous aspirations. This is insulting to the population of Yugoslavia, those aspirations belonged to them, they fought for them and won.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
Not true. Its not based on freedom and democracy, you have just perfect example of G happening in ME in front of EU and with EU weapon.
They didn't won. They lost they live worse than in Yugoslavia. Many people left countries too because how bad it is. You put yourself as some fighter of democracy like it is best system ever, while your EU is funding war on MI.
Also people fight not for democracy but something else that you don't understand. You are here on agenda, and that is the problem, you divert main problem to the local levels witch is not true. Also war is last stage, and I don't want to talk about that, I asked what is the cause and you didn't bring nothing to table except it is just some internal conflict witch is again not truth. Cause cause cause?
trisul-108@reddit
That is a US-Israel conflict with Hamas-Iran-China-Russia ... not the EU. The EU did not create the conflict, the EU does want the conflict and the EU cannot stop the conflict. The goal of Russian propaganda is to pin this conflict on the EU to help Russia with the invasion of Ukraine.
Certainly not. They live much better than in Yugoslavia, but now compare themselves to life in Germany instead of comparing with life in Libya.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
"That is a US-Israel conflict with Hamas-Iran-China-Russia ... not the EU. The EU did not create the conflict, the EU does want the conflict and the EU cannot stop the conflict. The goal of Russian propaganda is to pin this conflict on the EU to help Russia with the invasion of Ukraine."
You just act, and avoid question Germany send weapon to Israhell, Eurovision and all sports Israhell is there although its not part of EU or Europe. While Russia was banned Israhell is not even when commit G. Its not propaganda its your agenda.
"Certainly not. They live much better than in Yugoslavia, but now compare themselves to life in Germany instead of comparing with life in Libya."
No they don't, people are poor as hell, yes they have big wages but when you see prices people in Bosnia live better, if you don't believe me go check it. 99.9 % local people in Dubrovnik cant buy even on loan apartment.
Yugoslavia- Free healthcare, free apartment for family, jobs, free holiday on seaside
Lybia - Same even more than Yugoslavia.
I am glad you said Libya it was also destroyed by USA and European countries. Why cause of war it again neoliberal economy, and USA currency. Gadaffi wanted to trade in African Dollar that is the reason he was killed and his country sent to smithereens.
System that you think it is better for you doesn't mean it was better for Yugoslavia people, also nobody ask them about system it was set up by EU and USA.
But you are spamming here with your post still didn't put single argument what is Cause of the war in Yugoslavia.
trisul-108@reddit
You are extremely condescending to the people who were seeking democracy and prosperity. They did not need "foreign funding" to do this.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
They would never do this without foreign funding. Croatian Democratic Union aka HDZ, Party of Democratic Action aka SDA, Serbian Democratic Party aka SDS and so on and so on. Also people had prosperity it was blatant lie that they did not have that. Also they had more democracy that they had today even in one party system. Everybody got apartment (yes it was slow sometimes) had job, had paid holidays etc. Non of countries have that today. Buy apartment in Dubrovnik is impossible for 99.9% of locals.
trisul-108@reddit
Of course they could. There is no empirical evidence that they could not.
Untrue, average salaries were pitifully low and companies were lacking in investment funds with equipment completely worn out. Many companies were exporting at very low prices.
It was a matter of long-term underinvestment as too much was going into a hugely expanded military spending combined with the inherent inefficiency of the economic model of worker's self-management.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
There is empirical evidence they done it with foreign funding.
They were living fine with their salaries, equipment was fine and it was total lie that they worn out. Many big companies took westerners jobs across Africa MI, Sout America. Yugoslavia companies were real problem to EU big companies, they took them really big jobs, that is also one of the reasons why EU seek Yu disolve.
trisul-108@reddit
The fact that someone found interest in helping the process does not mean it was driven by that financial aid. You are insinuating that people were without agency, hoodwinked by foreign interests while in reality they were fighting for a better life ... and they secured a better life through that struggle. Not in Serbia, where it did not happen, but in Slovenia and Croatia where they won.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
exactly they were paid by outside to make problem inside. They won what? They were smaller then ever before, all their big companies are own by westerners, More than 500 000 people left Croatia, that doesn't sound good for such small country. You said Slovenia and Croatia won (witch is not true) What is with rest of Yugoslavia?
trisul-108@reddit
The people of Slovenia and Croatia did not "make problems" for themselves, they freed their country for prosperity based on freedom, democracy, rule of law and human rights.
fortisqp@reddit
European union, especially germany
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
I heard that from one really educated guy, he said Germany but we didn't had time to talk in details, why do you think its Germany?
fortisqp@reddit
Becouse the unification, they saw the opportunity to demolish the industry in post soviet parts of Europe, and Yugoslavia was part of the easter block,Yugoslavia althoug it had outdated industry was still producing about 80% of it is needs, and Germany needed money and new markets, when it demolished the industry soon the German industrialists and the BND (german secret service) took most of the important industries and companies,then they overflow the market with their german made products(adidas,tools, cars,etc) In Macedonia they bought the most important and only monopoly in the Telecomunications,also the mayor dry wall production and mine…etc the rest of the republics and theirs factories They recognized Slovenia and Croatia as indepents states which led to even bigger bloodbath.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
At last somebody with argument. What you think about this that I found about USA law and Parenti talk, did you read/watch it? I also think Germany also had fingers in cause for destabilization of Yugoslavia. I know that some of really important jobs took Energoinvest in Africa and on Middle East where usually was France and Germany. I know they had really big jobs in South Africa too. Hell my friends worked on Paris metro where Siemens had interest. So yes destruction of Yugoslavia industry complex was most important thing for EU and Germany.
fortisqp@reddit
You got this right, everybody blames USA for the death of Yugoslavia but it is not like that.
SlatkiMicek@reddit
CIA predicted disintegration of Yugoslavia back in 1983. How much did they have to do with it, IDK.
No_Designer_8203@reddit
Planned, not predicted. Long before 1983 btw.
trisul-108@reddit
That's just BS by people who refuse to take responsibility for what they have done themselves. No one broke Yugoslavia other than Yugoslavs themselves. It just didn't turn out the way the breakers predicted.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
I explicitly said CAUSE not who was fighting in the war. No its not true, Europe hated Yugoslavia because their economy and industrial complex was developing better than they expect. Who thinks war happened just because somebody hate somebody he is out of his mind. Not a single war happened like that in modern history. You were spamming whole post not a single argument.
SlatkiMicek@reddit
Do yourself a favor and read the entire article about it.
No_Designer_8203@reddit
Maybe later, no time now.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
waiting for comment after read :)
trisul-108@reddit
It was not difficult to predict the possibility. They predict every possibility they can think of, that is their job.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
and after that they use their leverage to disintegrate Yugoslavia
LittleBigBaws@reddit
There as a NATO crisis report in the 70s that had Belgium at a higher risk of imploding than Yugoslavia.
Visual-Actuator-8348@reddit
For me, as a Serbian, your sentence “Serbia is still holding, but for how long?” shows that you have no real understanding of the situation. Serbia is a criminalized, corrupt country with a dictatorial regime that is selling everything just to stay in power one more day.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
I am seeking truth, now we went off from topic, but I guess while I wrote this think it was possible to just point on cause but reading comments I see that is not possible :) Anyway all banana countries now are selling everything, people are living bad and it will be worse but nobody budge! I do not know all the facts and what is sold what is not, but only people on Balkan are Serbians that are more than over a year protesting and demanding justice! I salute to people that want to fight for their future.
trisul-108@reddit
No, you are seeking confirmation of your theory despite it not fitting reality.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
I would be glad if you could confirm it, I put the facts in front of you. If you have better one please share it, if you don't have it please leave it I don't want to spend time in another one theory without fundamental ground.
trisul-108@reddit
You are 100% all-in into conspiracy theory, not facts. Your conspiracy theory is senseless because US interests were preventing Yugoslavia breakup, Bush Sr. was very clear about this as he pressured Slovenia to back off from declaring independence.
You have cherry picked a few "facts" that fit your theory and are pretending this to be reality. It isn't.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
You don't have argument so you call me conspiracy theoretic. I put you laws in USA that are bring by Bush in their Congress and it was public so yes it is fact. You went rant and insult. This doesn't bring normal conversation. Reality is that all new political parties have that exact word democratic in their name just like that law asked for starting from HDZ to the rest of spectrum.
trisul-108@reddit
Why would the parties not have democratic, when democracy is what the people wanted? Saying that this is the result of some US law is extremely insulting to the freedom-loving peoples of Yugoslavia.
You are painting a picture where they are unimportant tools in some grand schemes of great powers whereas in reality this was a grassroots movement in societies seeking freedom, democracy and human rights.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
People wanted ? Who said that, people had freedom and prosperity and rights in Yugoslavia. Again went off topic what is the cause of war in Yugoslavia?
trisul-108@reddit
Not really, they had an ossified system controlled by the Communist Party that was inefficient and creating an extremely low added value compared to Western economies.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
system was right, it didn't match neo liberal western economy that is based on imperialism, that is why you westerners do everything to destroy it, it was much more human and better to man than whole western systems and fake values they spread today.
trisul-108@reddit
The system did not work, it had low productivity, lack of competitiveness and continuous mismanagement. It failed.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
System worked better than in West countries, that is why that system is destroyed by west countries, that is perfect cause of the war in Yugoslavia. Later some internal problems were used to divert it from real problem (westerners hegemony) to the internal reasons. But real cause of Yugoslavia war was exactly westerners thirst for imperialism and feudalism, they achieve that through neo liberal economy that is put on people in Yugoslavia. People in Yugoslavia never vote for new economic or political system.
trisul-108@reddit
That is fantasy ... just like your name.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
System was changed to neo liberal economy without people voting for it. So new system was imposed to Yugoslavia people by westerners.
No_Designer_8203@reddit
This is from an old Parenti's speech. 20+ years old.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
and?
HorrorsPersistSoDoI@reddit
Nobody is reading that shit bro, I only read the title.
Religions and different cultures. It always comes down to that.
Unable-Stay-6478@reddit
Religions yes, but culture is the same.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
That is not true, that is the reason that is used, not cause, cause is something different. And you just went in to the flock like most of Balkan people...
trisul-108@reddit
I agree, nothing to do with religions. The moment the Serbian Academy of Sciences launched the slogan that "Serbia wins in wars and loses in diplomacy", it was entirely clear what was being planned by Serbia. They thought they win wars, so they organised one.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
yea written in 86' after Tito death. After his death is part where dissolving process started, what is cause of that? What diplomacy did it lost? So to prepare to war you have to have some reason.
freshcap0ne@reddit
Nationalism and hate. There are no other reasons.
Silver_Ad8@reddit
Serbs wanted to stay in Yugoslavia because they wanted all Serbs to live in one country, other minorities wanted their own states.
Ethnic map was very mixed before war so you got what you got.
Add foreign meddling and revenge for WW2 and you got Yugoslav Wars.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
They were already living in one country, so that is false. Also false is that other minorities wanted own states, that start happening in late 80" and what is the cause of that?
fesagolub@reddit
Either I wasn’t paying attention before, or this sub has turned into a joke over the weekend.
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
what do you think its cause?
TheETERNAL20@reddit
Could easily reduce all this to like 3 paragraphs because I doubt most of here are gonna read it all
Fantastic-Reading-78@reddit (OP)
I could easily reduce to 3 words but really, I just wanted to explain my stance and how it got to this place, we are talking with facts. If you are lazy to read it then don't. I am seeking truth, and constructive talk. People in comments act as I said, not interested and have no clue why it happened.
antisa1003@reddit
USA and EU wanted Yugoslavia to break up? Why did they then do hell all to keeping it together?
v_rex74@reddit
Everybody suddenly started provoking by far absolutelly strongest army in region. If you know what i mean.
geizige-vorhaut2289@reddit
idk i think we were just bored
romananger94@reddit
Djordje Martinovic incident
medved76@reddit
Jfc