ATC go around timing preference
Posted by Hopeful-Engineering5@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 85 comments
We were talking about this today in the tower and figured we would try and get some pilots point of view. If you are in a situation where you might be sent around would you prefer it be done early and possibly be sent around unnecessarily. Or would you prefer that we let it run as long as possible and have a short (1/2 mile) final go around?
RobThree03@reddit
My most recent go around was due to wind shear in SFO. We knew it was coming and called it at 1000’. It was a goat rope. We just never practice it happening at that point. It’s awkward. The whole flow of the procedure was off. TOGA was too much power, level off happened before we were really done with the go-around call outs, etc, just a very busy environment. In that case it was safer to do it high, but lower/later makes it a smoother maneuver.
I’d like to know it’s probably coming sooner, but make the decision and start it at 200’ like we always practice it.
Rainebowraine123@reddit
The big thing with early go arounds for me is that you dont go full TOGA. I guess in the CRJ thats easier to manage than a more advanced jet that has auto throttle and sequences everything into the missed for you when you press TOGA, but nothing beats clicking off the automation.
All that being said later is preferred as long as we have a heads up.
RobThree03@reddit
The 737 has a “slow-around” setting, but it’s still a heck of a ride and very busy.
SocalSelcal@reddit
That's one of my less favorite things about the airbus. You have to at least touch the TOGA detent to get the FMGC to sequence correctly, otherwise you risk the flight plan dropping out when you overfly the runway. An intermediate go around normally we go to TOGA and then immediately back into the climb detent which still results in Mr. Toad's Wild Ride.
Rainebowraine123@reddit
Wait, does the airbus not have a TOGA button?
SocalSelcal@reddit
Correct. Le Airbus has no TOGA button. You have to push the thrust levers into the physical TOGA detent to achieve the conventionally "TOGA" press.
Rainebowraine123@reddit
Wow, TIL.
Rainebowraine123@reddit
If you disengage autothrottle does pressing TOGA still sequence the flight plan?
makgross@reddit
Go arounds are always safer earlier.
Accurate-Indication8@reddit
Nope. In a transport category aircraft I'd argue the exact opposite.
EntroperZero@reddit
Why is that?
Accurate-Indication8@reddit
Saltyspaceballs pretty much covered it.
Saltyspaceballs@reddit
A go around in a jet isn’t just adding power, pitching up and raising a stage of flap to climb away, there’s a whole sequence of events that happen. If I’m going around above the missed approach altitude I’ve got to work out a non-standard way of getting out of APP mode and then possibly descending to the missed approach altitude then levelling off. If you’re only a few hundred feet below the MAA then you could do easily bust the level with the performance a jet has too, certainly a risk of overspending there too.
There’s just a whole bunch of holes in the Swiss cheese opening there.
Doing it from a “low” (we’re not talking 50ft radio here) you press TOGA, the FMC sequences a whole load of things in the background, from the lateral route, the trust settings and tells the flight directors (and likely AP) to fly the manoeuvre. It’s also well practiced from low level, from a random high altitude isn’t really something we do often.
With that said at high altitude you don’t need to go around immediately. Acknowledge the GA, talk through the procedure with your colleague, literally do a mini-brief, you’ve got time, then go around. ATC are unlikely to expect an immediate pitch up when you’re 4 miles out
In reality a 300ft go around with the AP is a really chill manoeuvre too, an absolute non-event.
EntroperZero@reddit
Cool, so it's less about the mechanics of doing it and more about not having a smooth workflow. Thanks!
opsman25@reddit
Not in a jet.
AK_Dude69@reddit
No, they’re not.
Hopeful-Engineering5@reddit (OP)
Thanks for the replies interesting discussion, I miss when we could jumpseat. Controllers and the flight crews learned a bunch from them, but the FAA really doesn't like them.
Some clarification when I said earlier we were meaning between 1 and 2 miles not outside the marker which would be odd. In 19 years the only outside of the marker go arounds I've issued are when the runway closed due to accidents, incidents and once do to it freezing over.
Most of us were between 1/2 (roughly 200 ft) and 1 mile (400ft). Less than 1/2 mile and it turns into a mandatory reporting item and we generally prefer to avoid that.
My own personal standard is 1 mile as that is about 20sec of flying time which gives me an option if someone blocks the frequency or the transmission doesn't go out for other reasons. For when I'm working solo I've been not issuing landing clearances until I'm 100% sure and saying on contract "continue, tight sequence expect clearance on short final". Given everything that has happened recently that extra safety layer seems worth it.
Paranoma@reddit
Good question. Early go around are something that presents risk as well, mainly an automation or mode control risk. Later go arounds, particularly at least 1,000’ below missed approach altitude will be more normal for us; but obviously being lower is also a risk. Most airlines train for this early go around, or a “discontinuance of an approach” but it would probably be more involved than our standard go around, which is really designed to be performed at Decision Altitude. So I would say if we are 1,000’ less than the Missed Approach Altitude then I’d prefer that. It let’s be not get too low but also I can use standard go around profile.
legimpster@reddit
By Missed approach altitude do you mean the Final Approach Fix? Because usually on our approaches, 1000’ below a missed approach altitude would be in the earth.
Atom_Tom@reddit
Genuine question, what do you mean by missed approach altitude? This might be a case of US v non-US terminology or you might just be flying some interesting approaches but 'missed approach altitude' for me would mean the altitude that you climb to on the missed approach, and the lowest I see regularly is 2000' above the field.
If we mean the same thing I'd love to know which approaches you're flying that have lower missed approach altitudes as I'm hoping to move to long haul at the end of the year and want to learn more about procedures in other parts of the world.
Thanks for your time!!
legimpster@reddit
Ahh yeah there is a terminology error on my part. I meant missed approach point, not missed approach altitude. That was my mistake
Atom_Tom@reddit
Ahhhh no worries we're on the same page then!! Thanks for getting back to me 🙂
Paranoma@reddit
Yes about 2,000’ is the lowest MAA.
Atom_Tom@reddit
Thanks!
Paranoma@reddit
Yes that is what I meant. Thank you. My edit will represent that.
ma33a@reddit
If you give us a heads up it could happen then I am happy for call as late as possible, I would rather avoid doing a go-around if it's not needed rather than an early one just in case. If we can see it coming we normally do a mini brief of the manoeuvre and make sure things are setup correctly.
TheGacAttack@reddit
What kind of phraseology would you want/expect to hear?
Pseudo-Jonathan@reddit
"SWA1234, you are 2 miles in trail of slower traffic ahead, be ready for a possible go-around on short final"
Neither-Way-4889@reddit
Don't say "go-around" unless you're instructing someone to go-around.
ma33a@reddit
"Expect late clearance, 1 to cross."
suuntasade@reddit
Cdg in europe gives you clearance in us style
ma33a@reddit
We don't talk about the French.
SRM_Thornfoot@reddit
I don’t want a late clearance to land. That leaves the controller just seconds to get the clearance out in time, and guaranteed that is exactly when someone is going get on and jam up the frequency checking on or getting a windcheck.
Saltyspaceballs@reddit
Tower isn’t that busy and people shouldn’t be using that many words when checking in to block up a frequency. If the controller is leaving it until you’re in the flare then you should have gone round yourself anyway at that point. It’s not entirely unique to the USA (France rings a bell as another nation that does it) but the vast majority of the world only clears you when the runway is, well… clear.
ma33a@reddit
You can do the same argument the other way, imagine being cleared to land and then having the tower be stepped on when they are trying to wave you off.
Rainebowraine123@reddit
Plain English.
Baystate411@reddit
Using the term "go around" when not issuing a go around is bad from a human factors standpoint
Broncuhsaurus@reddit
Yup I concur. Just the other day I heard some one else report they were going around and then another aircraft thought that it was ME (ATC) talking to THEM. Hearing the phrase makes everyone on edge. It’s similar to controllers only using “CLEARED” when it’s associated with a landing or take off clearances. “Cleared to land” or “cleared to takeoff”. Makes me cringe when I hear pilots say it for anything else for absolutely no reason. I would have thought they’d be on the same page about it but people say it when you give them taxi instructions or other airborne instructions like approving a base turn. They’ll say something back like “cleared to taxi” or “cleared to turn Base”. Just silliness.
Saltyspaceballs@reddit
Agreed, an “expect late landing clearance” gets the message across without saying the inevitable words.
Far_Top_7663@reddit
Finally one that brings up the "heads up".
I (not an airline pilot) would also prefer that the plane is NOT cleared to land. Instead clear the pilot to continue the approach and advise to expect a late clearance. In most of the world, you cannot clear a plane to land when another one is already cleared to land on that runway or if you plane to let another plane occupy that runway (cross or take off) before the plane in question lands. In that case, if in the heat of the moment the controller gets overloaded and misses to call the go-around, the pilot will go around by themselves because they know they are not clerared to land.
Again, I am not inventing anything new. That is how it works in most of the world, and it works pretty well (as an example, the controller would have had to judge if the firetruck had enough time to cross the active before the Jazz lands, he would have had to tell the firetruck to hold short or would have had to cancel the landing clearance of the Jazz and either send them around or tell them to continue the approach and expect a late clearance after the truck crosses, and THEN clear the truck to cross).
bingeflying@reddit
It might sound counterintuitive but an early go around is harder than a last second one. We train constantly for the last second go around but hardly ever for an early one. The procedures are different and I find just keeping it all the same is best. So my pick is going around at less than 1000ft AFE.
MrFrequentFlyer@reddit
Send me around at 12-15 miles out or inside 300 feet if you want it to look good. If you’ve got a heading and altitude I can usually make it work.
Goop290@reddit
Lot of airline answers. If you a GA tower tell us early especially if its a training airport. If you give me a warning I might have a go around I can play with my speed to make it work as long as no one's close behind me. I always taught my students to space themselves in the pattern so atc didnt have to extend us. Just makes the pattern more normal so ever lap flies the same.
In GA id prefer knowing early on final. In 135 or Airlines I want to try to make it work so tell me late
Matuteg@reddit
Rather do a full go around than a “soft” go around at altitude
AK_Dude69@reddit
Some weird situation with the fms and autopilot setup is so much harder than just going around at the appropriate point
Accurate-Indication8@reddit
Yup. TOGA button is designed to get the airplane climbing away as rapidly as possible. Appropriate at DA, not appropriate when you're above 1500' AFE (and possibly in a higher energy state/not fully configured).
Baystate411@reddit
One nice thing Boeing did for once is a TOGA press is a 1000-1500 climb and a double tap is full TOGA power. The e170 was a "hope you're holding on!" Single push.
But the 737 AP auto disconnects as soon as you hit toga and there is no thrust to pitch compensation so you better be ready with forward pressure as soon as the engine starts giving power.
hai_@reddit
airline perspective. last minute. it’s the one we practice in the sim all the time and usually we see it coming.
LargeDarkNipplePpl@reddit
Agreed. At least after we've hooked up to the glide slope and are on the way down. Certain airplanes (cough guppy cough) are a pain in the ass to coerce into a go around until we're below 2,000 AGL or so.
Prefect_99@reddit
Yeah the early ones are the ones that get funked up 😂
mvpilot172@reddit
Yeah, when I start to review the go around procedure with my FO at 1000’ we see it possibly happening. Don’t call it until the last minute just in case they find the high speed not all the way at the end of the busy runway.
the_ging3r@reddit
This is the correct answer
Paranoma@reddit
Yes we practice for it but an early missed approach is a risk, which is what OP is asking about.
RectifierUnit@reddit
Going around at the outer marker is all elbows and assholes trying to do some weird go-around/breakout hybrid maneuver with our profiles.
Saltyspaceballs@reddit
From the flight deck we know it’s coming if it’s going to happen, but us have the best shot possible. It depends on so many factors, has the aircraft in front missed an exit you had assumed they would take, is the wx bad, so many variables. It’s it’s very obvious then early is also fine, it might give us a chance to get the AP back in, do a little mini-brief so we’re both in the loop before pressing TOGA.
Not sure what country you’re from, but one in particular loves to change the missed approach procedure just as we’re doing the manoeuvre. Let us start climbing away if you need changes. That’s where timing counts a lot more than how far out you are
flyboy7700@reddit
As long as you send me around before my nose-wheel touches, we’re good.
937OYE@reddit
As a GA pilot for now, whenever it’s deemed necessary. If I’m in a hurry, I’m not going to be flying there.
bergler82@reddit
I very much appreciate information. „XYZ123, A320 lining up for immediate takeoff, reduce final“ even if we are already at final speed. It’s just a „if the dude doesn’t move you’ll be going around“ or generally being attentive. „XYZ123 line up prepare for immediate takeoff, ABC on three miles final.“ If I am ABC I am now aware because I heard my airline callsign and I know I am on the three mile final. Just have information flowing. If a go around surprises me at 700 ft I might take a second longer. If I am already aware of a possible go around call I am ready to go.
Being_a_Mitch@reddit
Heads up of the potential is nice, just to make sure we're tracking the same threat. Last minute is fine, stabilized approaches mean that the aircraft should be in nearly the same configuration and speed for the last few miles of the approach anyway, so last minute just means we're closer to the ground, but that's really not a big deal. We were planning on touching the ground anyway.
Bunslow@reddit
I generally agree with the other comments, with the additional note that it depends on if the pilot sounds "aware" or not. Some people on some days are simply lacking the awareness they need, and those guys I'd say get em on the go early; but 90-95% of the time, if the pilot sounds like they're on the ball and able to play chess, let em play chess as long as possible.
This perhaps applies to GA more than airliners, altho there are certainly enough airliners who are out of the game from time to time. But in general, if the crew sounds alert and able to play, let em play, airliner or GA.
oneothergamer@reddit
I would like to land if possible. Keep the go around for as long as you can to give us a chance to get in.
ananajakq@reddit
Preferably 200-500 feet. Anything lower than that, you can get into the balked landing/low energy go around territory an depending on your airplane it changes the way your automation responds to the toga switch. But if you give me a go around at 2000 feet then it’s easier to blow through the missed approach altitude because there’s too many things happening at the same time. In my experience the messiest go around are the ones where you are close to the missed approach altitude.
looper741@reddit
As a professional pilot I’d like to leave it till the last minute. Give me the chance to land. We can see things develop as well, so if spacing is tight we know it. Doesn’t really matter to me if I go around at 1000 feet or 200. But then again, I get paid by the minute so either way.
ananajakq@reddit
Preferably 200-500 feet. Anything lower than that, you can get into the balked landing/low energy go around territory an depending on your airplane it changes the way your automation responds to the toga switch. But if you give me a go around at 2000 feet then it’s easier to blow through the missed approach altitude because there’s too many things happening at the same time. In my experience the messiest go around are the ones where you are close to the missed approach altitude.
swakid8@reddit
I would rather get it at the last minute and give me “expect landing clearance at or continue the approach”
We can see things developing and know if tights are getting tight.
ShaemusOdonnelly@reddit
My aircraft doesn't even sequence the go-around correctly if we dont set the thrust levers to TOGA, so going around before the FAP is akward. In our training we do tons of GA at the MAP, so we're used to it and it is still safe at that point.
Astro_Venatas@reddit
As an ifr student flying Cherokees. The sooner the better. If you delay me a bit by making me hold I can tell the guy after me atc was busy. I can’t tell them I crashed the plane and died because atc didn’t tell me I was landing on a hazardous runway.
SuperOriginalName23@reddit
Youre that scared of a normal go-around procedure?
unfortunatetourista@reddit
Wat
Weak_Tangerine_6316@reddit
If it’s a maybe or gonna be snug I always prime them with “min spacing possible go around” or “expect a clearance short final” or something like that.
johnisom@reddit
As a GA pilot I would prefer late go arounds. Often times a situation where it looks like the guy in front of you won’t clear the runway in time, he ends up clearing it in time
TheGacAttack@reddit
GA pilot. I don't care, but it does feel weird to go around early. I expect a go around to be on short final.
andrewrbat@reddit
My airline has a separate procedure for go arounds above 1000’afe because they sometimes need to be handled substantially differently.
If we can get a chance of landing safely, we will take it so long as its not diminishing separation below safe margins.
Its probably best to let it go until a few hundred feet then go around, or call it as early as possible, maybe before we join the glide slope. Its the in-between altitudes that get tricky. Say you go around at 900’ and missed approach alt is 2000’ you will be climbing like a bat out of hell and have a sharp level off, then your acceleration rate gives you almost no time to reduce thrust and level off before overspeeding flaps. The autothrottles should prevent this but at such high rates of climb and accleration, they may not be able to keep up. All the while, retracting flaps in sequence, gear, selecting lateral and vertical modes, communicating with atc, etc and trying to make sure the plane goes where its supposed to at some of the more intense attitudes we see in a non-emergency situation.
Low_Sky_49@reddit
GA pilot here, I’d prefer the later go around.
officialchairforce@reddit
High go arounds suck and are non standard
sdgunz@reddit
Safety first by all means.
I'm for waiting, in the hopes of landing and no go around.
I don't know how the tower controllers are able to manage so many aircraft with so few go arounds.
willmeggy@reddit
A bit different but I’ve been flying as a wingman in a flight of two and lead got the wave off from tower due to crossing traffic on the runway. Tower shortly came back with -2 continue to which we then got a clearance to land. It could work to cancel the landing clearance and tell the pilot to continue and then wave them off or clear them to land as appropriate.
blizzue@reddit
LET IT RIDE
honestly don’t care, unless it’s for something behind us, we can usually see it coming.
Initial-Pain8869@reddit
As late as possible if it reduces the chance of a go-around.
natbornk@reddit
My students need to practice ATC go arounds anyways. Let er rip
changgerz@reddit
1/2 mile is fine, doesnt really start getting too sketchy until below 100-200’
poisonandtheremedy@reddit
You can tell me to go around (piston single pilot) at any point before my wheels touch the ground and honestly I’m good. So I’d prefer “Short Final” out of the two options you listed. Half mile final is plenty of time in the GA stuff I fly.
scottyh214@reddit
I think that’s a hard answer to give. Earlier is always good. I’d say the moment your brain says “that ain’t gonna work”, call it. At the end of the day, the less we scare the people in the back the better.
spitfire5181@reddit
VFR, I'll take the short one. We see it coming and hopefully we are prepared.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
We were talking about this today in the tower and figured we would try and get some pilots point of view. If you are in a situation where you might be sent around would you prefer it be done early and possibly be sent around unnecessarily. Or would you prefer that we let it run as long as possible and have a short (1/2 mile) final go around?
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