Too hot for solar and too much wind for turbines: Can renewables withstand our worsening climate?
Posted by Acrobatic-Lynx-5018@reddit | collapse | View on Reddit | 36 comments
This recent article from EuroNews covers the threat renewables face in an increasingly volatile climate. It mentions that wind turbines often have to be switched off because it is *too* windy. Last year the UK paid nearly 2 billion dollars to have gas plants switched back on to compensate.
Collapse related because renewable grids are not being designed with the future climate in mind - because we don't know what the future climate will be. Current transmission lines throughout the world are not designed to handle the surge from renewables.
Twisted_Fate@reddit
Yes. That's why renewables won't save us. Because they cannot be used just to prop up the business as usual economy and lifestyle.
ProfMuChao@reddit
I mean, sure, if one narrowly defines "save us" as maintaining BAU.
Twisted_Fate@reddit
Sure, I should have added "this alone".
Cptawesome23@reddit
The cooling problem is not actually a problem in wet climates, like Virginia or coastal areas. In windy areas, those would be ideal for future solar since the wind will keep the panels cool.
hagfish@reddit
There are several ways this can go:
At the moment, we are racing blithely towards Option 4. I like to hope Option 3 could happen, but I really don't thing it's very likely.
*This will have to include the Haber-Bosch process. No more magic NPK.
Kenpoaj@reddit
Im curious what the math is behind option 3. How does having an entire house on electric with its own solar impact that? (Only using grid during 3 months of the year due to sun angle)
hagfish@reddit
If the 'house' provided the embodied energy of all the services and and inputs the household consumes, then fine. But we don't each live in a 'house'. We live in a connected society that provides food, healthcare, education, work opportunities, transport, entertainment etc. A few solar panels is nice - we don't have to have our Uber Eats in the dark - but we're still using far more energy than a rooftop can generate. Conflating 'energy' and 'electricity' might be the sticking point, here.
TheBendit@reddit
The too much wind problem is easy to fix. Further away from the storm there will be lower wind, and the wind farms there will produce at maximum. This will compensate for the loss of power from the few farms stuck in the worst part.
This is how it works already in places with a lot of wind. The problem with wind is when there is none of it, because that can cover quite a large area.
church-rosser@reddit
Storm? This is talking about entire systemic climate change, not just what happens when a single storm happens.
TheBendit@reddit
The article specifically says that storms are causing fossil fuel to be used to create electricity. This is a non problem when wind power is well developed.
church-rosser@reddit
your internal cognition machine is borked innit?
archelon2001@reddit
Not doubting that renewables lose efficiency in high temps, but this sounds like fossil fuel propaganda, especially when you consider how many times the article mentions electric grids being forced to use natural gas as a backup for "unreliable" renewables. Of course, the author doesn't mention that fossil fuel power plants also lose efficiency in hotter temperatures because they are unable to dissipate waste heat as efficiently; plus, with global warming leading to greater extremes in rainfall, they can also lose access to cooling water during the dry spells that are becoming more and more frequent.
spamzauberer@reddit
It’s physics that electrons collide more at higher temps and therefore don’t move as efficient. That’s why 40c is the upper limit for almost every electronic device as a working temperature.
Lopsided-Affect-9649@reddit
Solar panels are rated to over 65C.
J-A-S-08@reddit
And what's their efficiency at that temperature? Sure, they may technically still be making power but not the same at 20C?
TheBendit@reddit
They're still producing above 50% of rated power. They work just fine in the deserts in the Middle East.
HomoExtinctisus@reddit
Calling it “fossil fuel propaganda” seems like a reach. Saying gas is currently used as backup for drops in wind/solar output is just exactly how it works. That isn’t propaganda. The article didn't do something like falsely claim fossil fuels don’t have climate vulnerabilities. From what’s quoted, it sounds like it’s talking about real grid and infrastructure limits, not pushing a fossil fuel agenda. What exactly are you doing?
archelon2001@reddit
Problem A is supposed to be fixed by Solution B but Solution B has the exact same flaw as Problem A. That's a lie by omission
HomoExtinctisus@reddit
What part of that is a lie? In this case Solution B isn't exactly labelled correctly if you are attempting to assert renewables are a replacement for fossil fuels. Squeezing everyone into EVs might buy us a few points of Jevons Paradox efficiency but it doesn't solve shit for our predicament and there's overwhelming evidence for that assertion.
archelon2001@reddit
I should've been more clear, the "problem" in this case is renewables' reduced efficiency in high heat, and the "solution" the author proposed is fossil fuels, but fossil fuel plants also have reduced efficiency in high heat
HomoExtinctisus@reddit
The article makes no claim to contrary so again how can this be perceived as fossil fuel propaganda? You are searching so hard for confirmation bias.
Sapient_Cephalopod@reddit
A graduate from my uni is helping me out with a project for a student wind team I'm in and told me about her PhD thesis - something something windmill spacing optimization. She also works for a major energy company, again in wind power. Naturally, I go ahead and ask her "Do you take climate change into account, in any way, for either of these things" and she replies "No, not really". Tells you all you need to hear
church-rosser@reddit
That the highly compartmentalized and specialized opinions of PhD's are relative to their particular area of compartmentalization and specialization, but often have little transferably useful value outside their boxes?
acuriousengineer@reddit
I design utility-scale solar and wind facilities for a living, ~5 GWs worth across ~60 projects over the course of my relatively short career of 6 years in the industry.
We do take weather extremes into account, but are often told by financing parties to “reduce conservatism.” What this means is that the facility will not be able to reach its full power output rating during extreme temperatures (generally 40C), but in most cases we’re just talking about reduced efficiency or reduced power output, the whole system (usually) won’t just shutdown.
Extreme low temps are a bigger limitation for solar design, because voltage across modules in series goes up as temperatures decrease. Inverters have to shutdown when their voltage limit is hit for an extended period of time, however this is pretty rare because the coldest temperatures that we design the facility for are seen during winter storms, when sunlight (irradiation) is at its lowest.
As always, the answer to these problems when it comes to climate change is simply: more renewable availability = reduced reliance on fossil fuels. Even if a site is rated for 250MW, and at 50C it can only output 230MW, you can still meet the power demands of the grid if you have another 250MW facility down the road.
I have to say “generally” and “usually” above because different manufacturers have different limitations, the worst I’ve seen is a 4.2MW inverter that shuts down entirely when ambient air reaches 45C. These inverters are much more common in Europe, the US market doesn’t like them because of this limitation.
Wind is a bit more complicated, but it’s far less limited by temperature fluctuations. I think most turbines and the electrical equipment are rated for like 60C or more, and can go down to like -30C, maybe more. When wind picks up, the rotors can’t always manage the extreme torque. Power can’t be generated by the rotor if it’s moving too quickly, so it has to hit the brakes, which shuts it down altogether to avoid failure or excessive maintenance costs.
All in all, I wanted to write this comment cause I think the article is a bit dramatic and focusing on current grid limitations rather than the possibilities, as well as spreading misinformation about the reliability of renewables. I’m pretty sure that the curtailment costs shown in this article are related to either opportunity cost (not real money spent) or the cost of using other forms of electricity generation due to specific grid limitations (which could be solved by building more transmission capacity).
WombatusMighty@reddit
Thanks for the interesting comment and your effort in clearing up the fear-mongering.
To me it seems the solution is simply to build more renewables and expand / modernize the grid, to balance low output from certain areas that are experiencing strong colds or heats. Since there is always wind somewhere.
And of course more investment into large energy storage, maybe things like sand batteries and more decentralized storage in homes. Would you agree with that?
acuriousengineer@reddit
Yeah pretty much, grid modernization is a key component of building resiliency for the future, and decentralization helps with that and gives homeowners peace of mind. However, there are two key facets to grid modernization, transmission expansion/upgrades, and distribution modernization and upgrades. The latter is far more complex, and it’s the reason that some utilities in the US charged homeowners for backfeeding solar to the grid back like 10-20 years ago. Distribution lines weren’t designed to receive electricity, hence the name, so they require upgrades in order to regulate electricity coming in/out of the system. This gets complicated very quickly when we’re talking about hundreds or even tens of thousands of nodes in a single distribution branch that are all flowing in different directions. Likewise, the most expensive upgrades and new additions required for grid modernization are often substations/switchyards, the point between energy production and energy usage, and the point between transmission and distribution. All of these will require extensive upgrades, if not replacement all together, and these projects are extremely complex and expensive.
BESS is certainly a key component of grid modernization that I didn’t cover, it’s the unspoken rule of renewables that if you’re building solar or wind you should likely be building a BESS facility too. BESS is most beneficial when coupled with renewables at the substation, because any curtailment that needs to occur can first be redirected to BESS before the energy is lost all together. BESS also takes strain off the grid in many other ways, such as reactive power compensation and black-start support (essentially the grid needs a jump start after a blackout event, and solar can do this too during the day).
Likewise, homeowners who have solar should consider BESS as well to take stress off the grid during peak hours and for peace of mind during grid blackouts, which will continue to be a problem in perpetuity, even with all these grid modernizations, until we have fully transitioned and BESS capacity is greater than solar/wind capacity.
Shoddy-Childhood-511@reddit
At least the solar remarks were addressed here:
https://www.ecoflow.com/us/blog/what-temperature-do-solar-panels-lose-effectiveness
https://www.reddit.com/r/environment/comments/1spnwfq/comment/oh31mot/?context=3
These losses start above 25 C and become significant around 40 C, but your solar panel still produces something. You need to budget the reduced efficiency into your power demands, use bi-faced panels, and/or add cooling like fans. It's simply one of many factors being considered.
Reanga87@reddit
Can’t we just heat water to maintain temp. Could be useful for house installations ?
Vibrant-Shadow@reddit
Freeze the water at night, use the ice to cool during the day.
It's about as efficient as it gets.
Shoddy-Childhood-511@reddit
Any cooling would be costly, and require a detailed analysis, but like my link say they do cooling sometimes.
Yes, you could evaporate water off the panels, but that's costly in water.
It's probably cheaper to just add more panels.
Reanga87@reddit
I was thinking piping hot water to the boiler in a home for example
Shoddy-Childhood-511@reddit
You'll want cooling in the home when its that hot outside.
You could do heat exchange with ground water probably, if you have not drained it all for other uses, but this requires a big & expensive hole. Otherwise you'll have to pay energy to get rid of that heat.
mehum@reddit
Still going to draw current just for the pumps. Even ignoring the infrastructure cost it’s going to be difficult to come out ahead.
jbond23@reddit
Not due to too much wind, but too little investment in the grid and the "Grand Electrification of Everything" aka GEE. The demand is there or should be, just not where the wind is.
lowrads@reddit
Renewables are largely dependent upon transmission and grid interconnection. You can't simply get out of the problem with more capacity and storage, both of which are susceptible to temperature extremes.
One of the primary political obstacles is vertical integration of power producers and power distributors, due to perverse interest.
mountaindewisamazing@reddit
This is why we need to invest in solar thermal. The kinks have been smoothed out and there's tons of benefits, being able to easily store energy being the biggest one. There is also alternative materials you could use for mirrors that could bring down costs.